Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[shadowofman]

Exactly! Recognize the gaps in our knowledge, and speculate all you want. But to believe you know is irrational. And if the beliefs are inconsistant and defy all that is known (such as "it's magic"), then the beliefs are silly and delusional.

 

To stand by and watch people wander through life in this dream, fantasy land without at least calling them out is inconciderate. Maybe the fantasy isn't immediately dangerous, maybe it makes them feel good, but it's still a delusion and should not be ignored.

Edited January 3, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed insulting remarks.

[JamesM]

And if the beliefs are inconsistant and defy all that is known (such as "it's magic"), then the beliefs are silly and delusional.

 

To stand by and watch people wander through life in this dream, fantasy land without at least calling them out is inconciderate. Maybe the fantasy isn't immediately dangerous, maybe it makes them feel good, but it's still a delusion and should not be ignored.

 

Serious question...who is to decide that they are "silly and delusional?" And if it is you, from what do you derive this conclusion? And if it is your scientific method, how can you measure the supernatural? How can you be sure that it is inconsistent or defies all that is known if you cannot measure the supernatural? And if you do not accept the supernatural, then why do you think you can conclude that it is "silly and delusional?"

 

As for God being a delusion (to borrow the phrase popularized by the now infamous zoologist who speaks on theology), why can it not be ignored? Isn't what you really care about about is...how it affects your life...not those who believe the delusion? And if it is how it affects your life, then who has given you the "right" to decide what is delusional for other people's lives? (back to first paragraph).

[disgracian]

If I may append my 2c to this discussion:

Serious question...who is to decide that they are "silly and delusional?"

You correctly guess that it is up to each person to decide what is silly.

from what do you derive this conclusion? And if it is your scientific method, how can you measure the supernatural? How can you be sure that it is inconsistent or defies all that is known if you cannot measure the supernatural? And if you do not accept the supernatural, then why do you think you can conclude that it is "silly and delusional?"

Interesting can of worms that has been opened here. I wonder on what basis that the "supernatural" is given any initial credibility at all. It's like appealing to superlogic when conventional logic can't give us the conclusion we want, or supermathematics when we can't figure out the solution. Everything that happens in this world, this universe, as far as anyone can tell with a modicum of intellectual rigour, is entirely natural. That is to say, nature accounts for everything.

 

Perhaps the supernatural cannot be measured because it is not there to be measured. Given what we know about the burden of proof, is it up to those who deny the superntural to prove it doesn't exist or is an invalid concept, or does it fall to the supporters to advance credible arguments in favour of?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Given what we know about the burden of proof, is it up to those who deny the superntural to prove it doesn't exist or is an invalid concept, or does it fall to the supporters to advance credible arguments in favour of?

Neither.

 

It's totally up to the individual to decide for him/herself.

 

Then, for the sake of all humanity and inate characteristics within each of us, we all should RESPECT what the other believes regardless of how ridiculous we may "think" their faith system may be.

[shadowofman]

Disgracian covered my response very well.

 

Serious question...who is to decide that they are "silly and delusional?"

 

Each individual is to decide for themselves what is a silly idea. Honestly, don't you think that people that truely believe in dragons to be delusional? Do you just pat them on the head and say, "Oh how cute. An adult that believes in dragons."? It really doesn't matter if dragons really exist or not, all that matters is that you don't believe in them and claim has no evidence.

 

And if you do not accept the supernatural, then why do you think you can conclude that it is "silly and delusional?"

 

Thank you for bringing up the supernatural argument. It is the perfect example of delusion. You are creating an imaginary classification for things that only exist in your mind. There are invisible things in this universe, like gamma rays and viruses, but they are natural. Even if there is a being responsible for the creation of the planet and life on it, it has to be a natural being. If it exists, like you claim it does, then it is within the definition of existance.

 

And if it is your scientific method, how can you measure the supernatural?

 

Well, since you are the one claiming that this unseen thing exists, tell us where to start. All existance is composed of matter/energy. Is your entity consolidated into one form such as the personifications we like to give to gods (man in the clouds), or is this entity spread out across the universe (like the force)? You make the claim, you find out how to measure it. Until then, I consider your belief is silly. That is the burden of proof!

 

Isn't what you really care about about is...how it affects your life...not those who believe the delusion?

 

Ultimately yes! BUT, I also don't like seeing people stress out over imaginary things. Much like Christians believe in mission work. You know, spreading the "good news" about Christ. Well, I'm spreading the real news about reality. You may not live forever, but at least you get to enjoy life while your here.

 

And I also take personal offense to the influence that silly beliefs have on public policy. Which does effect all our lives.

 

And if it is how it affects your life, then who has given you the "right" to decide what is delusional for other people's lives?

 

This is a confusing statement. I am not deciding what is delusional for other people, only what is delusional as far as I'm concerned. I hope you don't think that I would suggest forcing atheism or any other belief on others. My only interest is in providing my view of reality, and expressing myself concerning yours. And my view is that you are delusional. Now to use your tactic, prove you are not.

 

It's totally up to the individual to decide for him/herself.

 

Agreed Moose, but don't pretend you are not in the debate. Are you suggesting that religion is just something that we should never talk about? Something that, out of respect for each other, should never be discussed? What happens when we get into other topics like gay marriage and abortion. Are you suggesting that we just leave each other alone? That would be cool with me actually. But it is not possible! We all feel the need to "mission" in one way or another as part of our cultural natures.

 

Then, for the sake of all humanity and inate characteristics within each of us, we all should RESPECT what the other believes regardless of how ridiculous we may "think" their faith system may be.

 

I'm sorry but this statement is just wrong! We should all respect each other as people, but beliefs are to be disrespected. Whether they are dangerous or just silly, beliefs are not sacred. When I meet a racist, I call their beliefs stupid. When I talk to a person that believes in supernatural things, I call their beliefs silly.

[THE THRONE]

D-Lish said:

 

Anyone that has read the Bible from cover to cover (and I have...well, I had to as a part of my degree) will read some pretty disturbing and odd stuff.

 

I've read several versions of "the Bible", and I would say "pretty disturbing" or "odd" are relative terms. I for one don't find it odd that a person can look back and turn to a pillar of salt nor do I find it disturbing that 200 Watchers would leave their heavenly post to have sexual relations with women.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong- there are some interesting stories and amusing moments, and some valuable lessons. But, the omnipotent god also manifests the behavior of an angry vengeful god.

 

Being "omnipotent" does not negate anger and vengeance.

 

the Pantheons of gods in history always explemplify human traits... the monotheistic god of the Bible is also illustrated as owning human traits..which of course include benevolence, anger, wrath, revenge and even cruelty. "HUH"? you want me to test my faith in you by killing my only son..... oh wait- it's just a joke... you were only testing me? Phew...

 

What is wrong with God being anthropomorphic?

 

Attestments to these charachter traits are easily found and quoted over and over again if anyone wants to me to quote examples. The one above is a good example- points if you know the father and son I am talking about...lol

 

Could be talking about God and Jesus or you could be talking about Abraham and Isaac.

 

Why is it that the gods throughout history all of exemplify human traits? Simple...Because the human mind creates them.... Scientologists have been a bit more creative with their Tuetons....I must give credit where credit is due.

 

Certain gods from certain religions and beliefs exemplify human traits. If you look into religions based in animism I'm sure you'll see someone worshipping the rock god, yet the god has no human traits.

 

Something to consider about the Bible is the notion of Canon. Canon is sort of like censorship. Men of important positions in the church throughout history have built the Bible by deciding what content should be included...and what should be eliminated and disguarded.

 

This is true depending on what version of the bible you are referring to.

 

But you see, the basic tenents of christianity teach you to believe that the Bible was "Divinley inspired"... or more or less written by the hand of god.

 

No, these are not the basic tenants of christianity. I'm not even a christian and I know that much. The basic tenants of christianity have more to do with Jesus/Yeshua (birth, life, death and re-birth) and your acceptance of him than they do with accepting the bible as being divinely inspired or written by the actual hand of god (mene mene tekel upharsin?)

 

The convoluted content in the Bible has been through more translations than a history book ... And you truly can pick and choose what passages and stories to follow and use to your advantage.

 

Again, this would depend on what version of the bible you are referring to. In addition, going through translations isn't the major problem you should be concerned with. And even bigger problem to address or research would be original errors and older manuscripts not being in agreement.

 

Perhaps the flu, Aids, Stds, cancer, etc are tantamount to the locusts and bloody river.... and other 5 signs that wrath is about to come upon us. But realistically- it's just what happens in nature when the earth is overpopulated.

 

How do you know this is what happens when the earth is overpopulated? How many times has the earth been overpopulated, and do you have any emprical evidence to support the claim? Someone can easily come along and say we have these things because of evolution or because the government has created them in labs (I'm NOT talking about all disease here.) It isn't "just what happens when the earth is overpopulated" because things are more intricate and detailed than that.

 

What's wrong with just believing in yourself and being the best person you can be just because....(id-ego-superego), but I digress.

 

Who said anything was wrong with this?

 

Is it really that bad to NOT feel a need to explain everything?

Can't we accept that the things that happen to us just suck... plain and simple? Things don't always happen for a reason- we live in a random universe. Why isn't knowing that enough?

 

Causality is very logical.

[THE THRONE]

Disgracian covered my response very well.

 

 

 

Each individual is to decide for themselves what is a silly idea. Honestly, don't you think that people that truely believe in dragons to be delusional? Do you just pat them on the head and say, "Oh how cute. An adult that believes in dragons."? It really doesn't matter if dragons really exist or not, all that matters is that you don't believe in them and claim has no evidence.

 

 

 

Thank you for bringing up the supernatural argument. It is the perfect example of delusion. You are creating an imaginary classification for things that only exist in your mind. There are invisible things in this universe, like gamma rays and viruses, but they are natural. Even if there is a being responsible for the creation of the planet and life on it, it has to be a natural being. If it exists, like you claim it does, then it is within the definition of existance.

 

 

 

Well, since you are the one claiming that this unseen thing exists, tell us where to start. All existance is composed of matter/energy. Is your entity consolidated into one form such as the personifications we like to give to gods (man in the clouds), or is this entity spread out across the universe (like the force)? You make the claim, you find out how to measure it. Until then, I consider your belief is silly. That is the burden of proof!

 

 

 

Ultimately yes! BUT, I also don't like seeing people stress out over imaginary things. Much like Christians believe in mission work. You know, spreading the "good news" about Christ. Well, I'm spreading the real news about reality. You may not live forever, but at least you get to enjoy life while your here.

 

And I also take personal offense to the influence that silly beliefs have on public policy. Which does effect all our lives.

 

 

 

This is a confusing statement. I am not deciding what is delusional for other people, only what is delusional as far as I'm concerned. I hope you don't think that I would suggest forcing atheism or any other belief on others. My only interest is in providing my view of reality, and expressing myself concerning yours. And my view is that you are delusional. Now to use your tactic, prove you are not.

 

 

 

Agreed Moose, but don't pretend you are not in the debate. Are you suggesting that religion is just something that we should never talk about? Something that, out of respect for each other, should never be discussed? What happens when we get into other topics like gay marriage and abortion. Are you suggesting that we just leave each other alone? That would be cool with me actually. But it is not possible! We all feel the need to "mission" in one way or another as part of our cultural natures.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but this statement is just wrong! We should all respect each other as people, but beliefs are to be disrespected. Whether they are dangerous or just silly, beliefs are not sacred. When I meet a racist, I call their beliefs stupid. When I talk to a person that believes in supernatural things, I call their beliefs silly.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but the facts are people who thought the world was round were considered silly. People who thought African Americans grew tails at 12 midnight were considered SANE. What if the reason we can't see intot his "spirit world" or other "plane" is due to our lack of technology (we didn't always know about the atom, dna, etc) or some type of "barrier" or "law" that physically prohibits us from experiencing or entering it?

[shadowofman]

I completely agree. If a person 500 years ago suggested that there were tiny bugs in our bodies making us sick, we would have called them silly. It's is besides the point. It would have been our right to call them silly concidering they had no evidence and it was just a guess. Low and behold, right all along. With the proof for all to see, it turns out the skeptics were the fools. I don't disagree with any of this.

 

What if the reason we can't see intot his "spirit world" or other "plane" is due to our lack of technology

 

Mathmatically, it is likely there are other dimentions. We have no way to test this in a lab unfortunately, so until then, all speculation is concidered psuedoscience. Doesn't change the fact that this would not be a supernatural world. If it exists, then it is natural, just unknown. And any claims as to a "knowledge" of this world is righfully classified as intuition or just a hunch until one can provide evidence.

 

This is why most people are confessed agnostic, theist or atheist. To be gnostic about anything is foolish. As I have said before, I am an agnostic strong atheist, and this is for semantic reasons. I am completely willing to accept the fact that there could be a very powerful being out there that would appear to be magical or god-like to us simple humans, but am unwilling to define this being as magical, supernatural, or a god in the traditional sense. And I give the whole thing a small probability concidering the evidence shows no need for this. That is my opinion, and you are welcome to call me crazy!

[Moose]

That is my opinion, and you are welcome to call me crazy!

Actually, the Scriptures call people such as yourself, "fools". But I don't know if I'd go that far. You're just full of yourself.

Agreed Moose, but don't pretend you are not in the debate.

I'm not pretending. There's no debate about it. I believe in God, and you don't. (or at least not willing to admit it). What's to debate about? I don't have to prove anything to you simply because the evidence surrounds you. You just refuse to accept it. No biggie....MOVE ON!

Are you suggesting that religion is just something that we should never talk about?

Of course not. I'm the one who started this thread. You're the one who's trying to convince our community that I'm, (along with other believers) insane, ignorant, and silly. That's not, "talking" or discussing.....that's just being an A$$.

We should all respect each other as people, but beliefs are to be disrespected.

Ok then.....we'll just see how far that takes you in life.

 

THE THRONE,

 

Don't I know you?

[Geishawhelk]

We should all respect each other as people, but beliefs are to be disrespected. When I meet a racist, I call their beliefs stupid. When I talk to a person that believes in supernatural things, I call their beliefs silly.

 

It's the first sentiment that has started wars....

 

Racism is biggotry; it's not based on a coherent logical premise. There are more flaws to racism, and there is no inherent good in practising Biggotry, so it's not a belief that should be bracketed in the same category as Religious faith..... If a person believes in the supernatural, there is a fairer than average chance that they have had some personal experience to underpin that belief. And as you did not share that experience, whilst it may on the face of it seem a bunch of nonsense, the only way you can call that belief silly is if you can prove without any shadow of a doubt that their actual, personal experience is disprovable, Not one like it, the very one....

Until that is possible, it is more polite - and respectful, given that they are not doing you any harm - to keep an open mind.

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but your right to express them in a disrespectful way ends when the fist hits the nose... There's Freedom of Speech, and there's the responsibility that comes with the right to exercise that freedom.

I personally think it is of the utmost importance to Respect a person, their religious leanings and their right to uphold those beliefs. Respect for another being who has two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs and functions in exactly the same way you do - is as important as your own desire to have yourself - warts and all - respected by them.

Respect isn't earnt. It should be automatic.

If that person then loses your respect - as a hateful foulmouthed racisit biggot would lose mine - then that's another matter.

[JamesM]

Very well said, Geishawhelk. I could not have said it better.

 

Disgracian covered my response very well.

 

I agree. And while it is his opinion and I do not agree with all of it, my responses would simply be my opinions back at him...as would they be back to you.

 

Honestly, don't you think that people that truely believe in dragons to be delusional? Do you just pat them on the head and say, "Oh how cute. An adult that believes in dragons."?

 

Here IS an interesting topic. WHY do you think dragons did not exist? Because they do not now? Have you ever considered that dragons are an exaggeration of what we call dinosaurs? Truthfully. And yes, I DO think there is some factual basis for dragons. While I have a hard time believing that dragons breathed fire, I have just as hard of a time believing that all the dragon tales are from one person's imagination.

 

Thank you for bringing up the supernatural argument. It is the perfect example of delusion. You are creating an imaginary classification for things that only exist in your mind. There are invisible things in this universe, like gamma rays and viruses, but they are natural.

 

You are welcome, but I don't think I was the first. And why do you believe that these invisible "natural" things are more real than God, the Devil, and angels? Because they can be tested with the scientific method? Or perhaps instead because evidence can be seen from the action of these "invisible things?" So, if you open your eyes, then you can see evidences of God.

 

You make the claim, you find out how to measure it. Until then, I consider your belief is silly. That is the burden of proof!

 

So, the only things you believe are what can be tested by the Scientific Method? Can the only things believable...present, past or future be testable? This is not even logical. While you seem to think history is completely unbelievable, this is not the case. Many facts are based not on science but on history.

 

Can you show proof via the Scientific Method that you were born? Or are you going to show me historical records?

 

Can you measure all that has happened or all that will happen? No. My goal has never been to convince you nor will it ever be. Proving to you that my belief is not silly does not somehow validate it in my mind.

 

Example...you (based on other threads) call yourself bisexual. You have attraction to men and women. You say that you were born with something that makes you not monogamous. I consider that claim silly. Can you measure to my satisfaction this claim? Most people would say that your lack of commitment has nothing to do with your genes and everything to do with your mind. How can you prove them wrong?

 

Well, I'm spreading the real news about reality. You may not live forever, but at least you get to enjoy life while your here.

 

Whose reality? So life is all about your happiness now? The philosophy of hedonism. Is this how you feel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

 

My only interest is in providing my view of reality, and expressing myself concerning yours. And my view is that you are delusional. Now to use your tactic, prove you are not.

 

And why is your reality worth examining? And why does your view that I am delusional worth refuting? Why do I need to prove I am not? Interesting points, but meaningless.

 

Selective examination on your part may lead you to conclude that your perception of reality IS reality, but why does it then mean that others who disagree with your perceptions are delusional?

 

We should all respect each other as people, but beliefs are to be disrespected. When I talk to a person that believes in supernatural things, I call their beliefs silly.

 

Actually, I disagree. While I think that atheists are wrong, that does not mean that I disrespect their views. They have reached their conclusions based on their interpretation of the evidences. I reached a different conclusion. Yet I am smart enough to know that if I want to continually educate myself, then I can only do that if I do not arrogantly decide that my way is the only right way and those that differ are "silly" or "delusional." And there are Buddhists and other beliefs that post on this Board....I respect their opinions and want to hear them. I do not try to convince them (and atheists) that they are wrong, but I do try to show them why I believe I am right. This provides for open discussions that help us all learn.

 

Any other attitude leads to close minded arrogance and bigotry.

[Geishawhelk]

It's weird (and I'm not having a go, reproaching or criticising....) but I opened a couple of Buddhist threads some time ago, and they kinda petered out....

maybe I should be a more "confrontational in-ya-face" kinda gal...but it doesn't work like that....

 

If you'd like to see them, I can link, but you'll understand what I mean if you just give them the once over.....

 

Sorry...

Off-topic.

Apologies.

[Pitbull4]

I am new here and just going through some of the threads. I want to get out there my belief. I FIRMLY beleive this whole thing is a test. Life. We are put here to learn and to teach lessons in life. If we do not learn from them, we continue to suffer the rath through on to the next life we live. I feel horrible for the things some of us have to deal with.....I too was abused as a child.....however, I have learned to take what I was given and to teach others from my situation. I have jad too many kismatic moments in my life to NOT believe EVERYTHING happens for a reason. I know that is said too many times but, it is sooooo true. My fiancee' also has a hard time forgiving God for the things he was put through as a child, but we plan to teach our children a better way of life. This person needs to find their purpose in life and use her anger to teach others. That is just how I feel about this......hope I didn't hurt any feelings or make anyone mad.....

 

Also abused....

[disgracian]

Actually, I disagree. While I think that atheists are wrong, that does not mean that I disrespect their views. They have reached their conclusions based on their interpretation of the evidences. I reached a different conclusion.

I can't speak for anybody else, but also being in the "beliefs don't earn a free ride for respect" camp, I can say quite unambiguously that disagreeing with somebody else's beliefs is not equivalent to disrespecting them.

 

I can't say that I'm a Buddhist, in part because I lack the dedication and also in part because I'm not big on the mystical aspects of it either. I outright disagree with a few things. But I still have the highest respect for Buddhism and nearly all of the Buddhists that I've met. I also respect a lot of Christians and their beliefs because, as we know, no two Christians have exactly the same take on their religion. They always priorities some parts of it over others. Some are content to live by Jesus' teachings and some of those in the rest of the NT (minus Paul's misogyny and self-flagellating moralism) and I have no disrespect for such beliefs at all.

 

I do, however, disrespect Biblical literalists and their narrow-minded approach to spirituality. I disrespect the beliefs of those who follow Scientology. I disrespect the beliefs of anybody for whom doctrine is more important than other people, simply because of the ease in which I constantly observe them perform actions that are harmful to others just because it appears to be in line with some scripture.

 

Cheers,

D.

[THE THRONE]

THE THRONE,

 

Don't I know you?

 

Possibly, THE THRONE is famous for spreading the doctrine of the Seven-Legged Lamb. What other boards do you frequent?

[Moose]

I disrespect the beliefs of anybody for whom doctrine is more important than other people, simply because of the ease in which I constantly observe them perform actions that are harmful to others just because it appears to be in line with some scripture.

I can understand where you're coming from. Your position is starting to clear up for me a bit. Do you have some examples you'd like to share?

Possibly, THE THRONE is famous for spreading the doctrine of the Seven-Legged Lamb. What other boards do you frequent?

My apologies, we better not get off topic......your writing style sounded familiar to me......

[JamesM]

I

I do, however, disrespect Biblical literalists and their narrow-minded approach to spirituality. I disrespect the beliefs of those who follow Scientology. I disrespect the beliefs of anybody for whom doctrine is more important than other people, simply because of the ease in which I constantly observe them perform actions that are harmful to others just because it appears to be in line with some scripture.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

We agree for the most part. But I AM curious....why did you pick Scientology as an example? And what do you mean by "Biblical literalists?" While I do agree that any doctrine that is harmful to people is not good (of course, that goes back to who defines what is considered harmful ), I am curious how these two examples fit that description.

 

Thanks for your explanation.

Edited January 5, 2008 by JamesM

[D-Lish]

The biggest problem I have observed over the years is that when you define yourself as belonging to a certain organization- your affiliations to this group naturally exclude others that don't belong to it. This thread is a great example of an "us vs. them" view on people based on personal beliefs.

 

All groups, clubs, organizations are bound by a common belief system- and people that fall outside that belief system are rarely welcomed unless they internalize and accept the same belief system. This is true of religious organizations.... but geez, it's also true of athletic organizations, etc.

 

As an Atheist, I don't ever feel like I am part of some group or organization that follows a similar set of rules... I don't have doctrine to guide me~ I have a conscience.

 

I am always going to suscribe to the notion that it is pretty honorable to be a good person... just because. I don't need scripture to tell me how to live my life... but I enjoyed studying it as a major.

 

I've studied multiple religions, read the Bible from cover to cover.... even taken an entire course on Scientology. There is always one thing that sticks; it's the "if you're not with us you're against us" element.

 

I don't appreciate someone telling me I am going to rot in hell because I am an Atheist anymore than a spiritual person wants to hear that they are delusional. (I capitalized Atheist.... hmmm).

 

I've learned to embrace people that are good to me- that's it. That is all there is to it. Believe what you want to believe... but learn to get off the soap box every once and a while and look around and appreciate the eclectic surroundings.

 

We don't all need to belong to the same club to have common ground.

[Moose]

Good post D-Lish.

 

And, I totally agree.

 

So maybe you can understand now that when you've posted this, you can understand me and others when you're faced with this:

I have a conscience.

Prove to me that your conscience exists. You can't. And your ignorant to think that this, "conscience" exists. As a matter of fact, your conscience is just a fairy tale, and you're silly to believe in that in which you can't prove to me.

 

Would this not frustrate you? Would you not find this disrespectful?

[Lovelybird]

Psalm 32:8 I will instruct you (says the Lord) and guide you along the best pathway for your life; I will advise you and watch your progress.

 

God is faithful, he guides me and I WANT his guidance. Nothing can compare to receive God's love and grace, and see how God works in others lives and in my life. Looking back, it is so amazing God brought me so far and he is continuing to guide me; and an event in the past, isn't just a random event, every event God can bring good out of it, and make it benefical to future

 

Proverbs 2:1 Every young man who listens to me and obeys my instructions will be given wisdom and good sense.

 

The more I listen to what God says, the more I embrace what Bible teaches, the more my life become better and hopeful. and none of discussion can dismiss this fact.

I can do whatever I want, do somthing opposite of teaching of God, but soon I found out God's way is much better than my way, his way is the best. sometimes human even don't know their own way is destructive

 

People who believe and want God in their lives can see miracles happen, can see God's goodness and grace in their lives

Edited January 5, 2008 by Lovelybird

[disgracian]

But I AM curious....why did you pick Scientology as an example?

Because it was invented barely half a century ago by a science fiction writer as an obvious money grab. They believe in an intergalactic warlord called Xenu who transported billions of people through space in Douglas DC-8 aircraft with space engines to Earth where he blew them up inside volcanoes with H-Bombs.

 

It's utterly ridiculous on every level. I have no respect for any of these beliefs or anybody gullible enough to fall for it.

And what do you mean by "Biblical literalists?"

People who take every word of the Bible literally.

 

These are by no means the only two examples of beliefs I do not respect.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Because it was invented barely half a century ago by a science fiction writer as an obvious money grab.

So what? Archeology is and has only been a, "soft" science for a little over 150 years....

 

Who's to deem what is and isn't viable?

[disgracian]

Because archaeology wasn't dreamed up in the midst of an alcohol and prescription drug binge, as Xenu was.

 

Cheers,

D.

[FleshNBones]

The biggest problem I have observed over the years is that when you define yourself as belonging to a certain organization- your affiliations to this group naturally exclude others that don't belong to it. This thread is a great example of an "us vs. them" view on people based on personal beliefs.

 

All groups, clubs, organizations are bound by a common belief system- and people that fall outside that belief system are rarely welcomed unless they internalize and accept the same belief system. This is true of religious organizations.... but geez, it's also true of athletic organizations, etc.

You are always welcome to the Church. They only exclude people in an effort to encourage the right behavior or prevent it from negatively influncing the behavior of others (bad influence).

 

As an Atheist, I don't ever feel like I am part of some group or organization that follows a similar set of rules... I don't have doctrine to guide me~ I have a conscience.

 

I am always going to suscribe to the notion that it is pretty honorable to be a good person... just because. I don't need scripture to tell me how to live my life... but I enjoyed studying it as a major.

Do your homework and study. Don't smoke and don't do drugs. Eat right and get plenty of sleep. Pay your bills on time. Don't be late.

People tell you these things because they care.

 

I've studied multiple religions, read the Bible from cover to cover.... even taken an entire course on Scientology. There is always one thing that sticks; it's the "if you're not with us you're against us" element.

Mat 12:25: Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

I don't appreciate someone telling me I am going to rot in hell because I am an Atheist anymore than a spiritual person wants to hear that they are delusional. (I capitalized Atheist.... hmmm).

If you drink too much you will get drunk. Don't drink and drive. If you don't show up for work, you will get fired. If you don't pay your rent, you'll get evicted. Be sure to save some money. Don't break the law.

 

People are usually the engine of their own destruction. Just look through some of the other threads in this forum. Why feel offended if people point that out to you?

I've learned to embrace people that are good to me- that's it. That is all there is to it. Believe what you want to believe... but learn to get off the soap box every once and a while and look around and appreciate the eclectic surroundings.

If you surround yourself with people who agree with you, you create one of your exclusionary scenarios, and further reinforce your behavior.

 

Deluded people believe what they want to believe.

[D-Lish]

....You are always welcome to the Church. They only exclude people in an effort to encourage the right behavior or prevent it from negatively influncing the behavior of others (bad influence).

 

Umm, you do realize that your statement supports what I was saying.

"You are only welcome if you believe what WE do..." That's not what welcome means.... That's actually discrimination.

 

And for the record, anyone is welcome in my circle of friends- regardless of their religious affiliations. People don't have to believe exactly what I believe to be welcome in my home.... they need to be a good friend to me.

 

...If you surround yourself with people who agree with you, you create one of your exclusionary scenarios, and further reinforce your behavior.

Deluded people believe what they want to believe.

 

That is just what you told me your church does.... only allow people in who believe what you do. Again, you're supporting what I had said.

 

I don't think you read my post. I said I surround myself with an eclectic group of friends. Many of whom have different cultural and religious backgrounds. Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, etc...my friendships are not based on how we define our spirituality- they are based on how much we like being around one another. Which is what I said in my post. If you're nice to me and treat me with respect...that's good enough for me.

 

Things are getting off topic aren't they...

Edited January 5, 2008 by D-Lish