Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[D-Lish]

Good post D-Lish.

 

And, I totally agree.

 

So maybe you can understand now that when you've posted this, you can understand me and others when you're faced with this:Prove to me that your conscience exists. You can't. And your ignorant to think that this, "conscience" exists. As a matter of fact, your conscience is just a fairy tale, and you're silly to believe in that in which you can't prove to me.

 

Would this not frustrate you? Would you not find this disrespectful?

 

It would- and it does frustrate me, because I have heard it before too.

I have an aunt that corners me at family functions and tells me I better embrace Jesus or I'm going to go to Hell. I think it goes both ways. Being a Religious Studies Major- I had many fellow students tell me I was going to hell... lol.

 

I enjoy discussing beliefs- because it is interesting... I love bantering back and forth.... sharpening my art of discussion.

 

Personal attacks have no place in a healthy discussion. The problem is that when you have a discussion about something as passionate as this... people get offended easily. Sometimes I am guilty of this too.

 

Of course I'd be offended if someone told me I was ridiculous to believe what I believe. You can talk to me about it- but don't attack me for it. That's how I see it.

I understand where you are coming from.

[disgracian]

Prove to me that your conscience exists. You can't.

You didn't give us much time before declaring your challenge unwinnable. Anyway, scientific study has shown that the guilt stemming from immoral behaviour (if we are happy to accept that as a definition for our conscience) can be traced to certain parts of our brains.

 

http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/004733.html

 

We may be giving the label "conscience" to a bunch of interconnected functions throughout the human brain, but they relate to the feelings we experiencing when agonising over moral choices and I don't think that makes it any less real.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Lovelybird]

Bible is like a mirror, let's say there are 3 persons

 

Nonbeliever is person A

A Believer is B

Another Believer is C

 

All these 3 persons look into mirror each day morning.

 

Day first:

when A look at mirror, he found out on his face there is a big black dirt, and this dirt made him ugly. Out of rages, he said "what noncence! what a ridiculous mirror! I don't believe you". So he went out without removing the dirt on his face. but somehow the guilt conscience made him uneasy whole day.

 

when B look at the mirror, he said "well, that is ugly, are you sure, mirror? am I that ugly? maybe you didn't really that clear? Ok, let me try to remove it". B finally remove the dirt from his face and went out gladly

 

When C look at the mirror, he said "Really? I look terrible, I must remove it. Thank you mirror for letting me know it. Have a good day you too". and he went out and felt great.

 

Day two:

When A look at the mirror, he found out not only the dirt still there, and there added a new dirt. He burst into anger, said "you are a cruel mirror! I don't believe you. you are not only cruel, but full of defects, see? there there, a black dot on you, you cannot reflect reality really". and A went out and felt guilty conscience and defeated and full of bitterness.

 

When B look at the mirror, he found a new dirt on his face, and said "well, mirror, are you sure? again? ok, you are a mirror two thousands years ago, I dounbt your credibility! you aren't really that clear, in fact, you aren't a mirror at all." so he went out and felt depressed because he knew that the dirt still there, but he didn't want to accept that he could possibly make mistakes and caused a dirt on his face. what is more even worse he began to wish others have same dirt as him as well because that will make all look same

 

When C look at the mirror, he also found a new dirt on his face, and said "thank you so much, mirror, if without you I would carry this dirt without knowing. thank you for making me look great". he went out and felt great

 

 

The dirt is the wrongdoing and sins in our lives. All make mistakes, the difference is that the willingness to change or not. Do you trust yourself more or mirror more?

 

The wonderful part is that if you have willingness to change, ask God and God will help you to improve, and he forgives and forget all the sinns you did. It is a wonderful feeling if you have clear conscience, feel God is for you not against you, feel universe is for you not against you. The block of this wonderful experience is your guilt conscience and sins. Give the guilt to God and be peace with God, or you want to keep it to yourself?

Edited January 6, 2008 by Lovelybird

[Enema]

That's possibly the worst analogy I've ever read. The bible is not like a mirror.

 

The problem:

A mirror reflects reality, anyone can easily show this and no one argues with it.

 

The bible cannot proven to be true and many of the things in it are able to be argued.

[Lovelybird]

That's possibly the worst analogy I've ever read. The bible is not like a mirror.

 

The problem:

A mirror reflects reality, anyone can easily show this and no one argues with it.

 

The bible cannot proven to be true and many of the things in it are able to be argued.

then I guess you are person A

 

A mirror reflect reality of things can be seen

Bible reflect reality of things cannot be seen: such love, hate, conscience

[Enema]

A mirror reflect reality of things can be seen

Bible reflect reality of things cannot be seen: such love, hate, conscience

 

Are you suggesting that non-believers do not have a conscience and cannot express love, like believers?

[Lovelybird]

Are you suggesting that non-believers do not have a conscience and cannot express love, like believers?

nonbelievers have conscience and what they have extra is heavy burden of guilt, because they choose to keep them. The moment a person confess their sins to God, the moment they are released from this burden. you can go to a wonderful travel without burden; and you can go to a depressed travel with loads of burdens.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Lovelybird

[CheeseAdept]

Hmmmm, so are we talking about God in the traditional Protestant sense, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox? Or Perhaps we are referring to god in a broad sense? Because regardless...

[Enema]

nonbelievers have conscience and what they have extra is heavy burden of guilt, because they choose to keep them. The moment a person confess their sins to God, the moment they are released from this burden.

 

Do you have any real evidence for your suggestion that non-believers carry a "heavy burden of guilt?".

 

I can't speak for other non-believers, but; I feel great and don't have any guilty burdens.

 

This just sounds like another thing you've read in the bible that cannot be demonstrated and has nothing real to back it up.

[JamesM]

That's possibly the worst analogy I've ever read. The bible is not like a mirror.

 

The problem:

A mirror reflects reality, anyone can easily show this and no one argues with it.

 

The bible cannot proven to be true and many of the things in it are able to be argued.

 

A mirror does reflect to us what we look like, but the fact is...we DO argue with what we see. People who think they are fat see a fat person. People who think they are old see an old person. This is not necessarily reality but only their perception.

 

While parts of the Bible cannot be proven true (or false), much of it has been proven to be historically true. And yes, many things ARE able to be argued based on how people perceive it which is not necessarily reality.

 

The analogy has been made often that the Bible is a mirror of the Soul.

[Lovelybird]

Do you have any real evidence for your suggestion that non-believers carry a "heavy burden of guilt?".

 

I can't speak for other non-believers, but; I feel great and don't have any guilty burdens.

 

This just sounds like another thing you've read in the bible that cannot be demonstrated and has nothing real to back it up.

I have tons of prove. People rather twist themselves than change themselves most of time, and they don't even know it

 

People chase after things thinking that will do them good, but the end is destruction

[Lovelybird]

Hmmmm, so are we talking about God in the traditional Protestant sense, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox? Or Perhaps we are referring to god in a broad sense? Because regardless...

I am talking about God in the Bible

[CheeseAdept]

New Testament, Old Testament or the Bible as a whole?

Because I feel there is a great divide between the two.

[Enema]

A mirror does reflect to us what we look like, but the fact is...we DO argue with what we see. People who think they are fat see a fat person. People who think they are old see an old person. This is not necessarily reality but only their perception.

 

You're right, they interpret the unarguable facts that the mirror presents to them.

 

The bible isn't the same. There are no unarguable facts being presented like a mirror. Everything you read in the bible is merely your own interpretation as nothing can be proved.

 

While parts of the Bible cannot be proven true (or false)

 

Claiming that you cannot disprove the bible is a little silly. Can you prove there isn't a pink dragon on my shoulder right now? No, all you can do is suggest that there is no evidence for a dragon and no reason to believe in one, in theory logic then takes over and the idea is dismissed.

 

The analogy has been made often that the Bible is a mirror of the Soul.

In my humble opinion of course, this just means you have a book of false promises as a mirror to something that doesn't exist.

[Enema]

I have tons of prove.

 

Please read my question again, I have bolded the important bit for you below:

 

Do you have any real evidence for your suggestion that non-believers carry a "heavy burden of guilt?".

[Lovelybird]

New Testament, Old Testament or the Bible as a whole?

Because I feel there is a great divide between the two.

Bible as a whole. It is same spirit and maybe different kind of love. Like tough love and sweet love, but all are love, hope best in the person who he loves deeply.

 

In OT there are so many wisdoms that is very pratical in any ages

 

sometimes I don't understand certain part, I think that because my human perspective is limited. God's ways is always far beyond our ways

[Lovelybird]

Please read my question again, I have bolded the important bit for you below:

you don't have to go very far, just look at this LS, how far people go astray from ways of God, what consequences they receive

[JamesM]

Everything you read in the bible is merely your own interpretation as nothing can be proved.

 

I am hoping that you literally did not mean everything, but I have to take you at your word. Rather than going to a Christian link to show all of the many things that have been proven historically correct, I will simply quote an atheist website. While they do not think the Bible to be close to perfect, they certainly do acknowledge that things CAN be proved. And I am well aware that the article is not in support of what I know to be true, but still, if even they can see that things HAVE been proved to be true, surely you do not mean EVERYTHING, do you?

 

Has archaeology confirmed the historical accuracy of some information in the Bible? Indeed it has, but I know of no person who has ever tried to deny that some biblical history is accurate. The inscription on the Moabite Stone, for example, provides disinterested, nonbiblical confirmation that king Mesha of the Moabites, mentioned in 2 Kings 3:4-27, was probably an actual historical character. The Black Obelisk provides a record of the payment of tribute to the Assyrian king Shalmaneser III by Jehu, king of the Israelites (2 Kings 9-10; 2 Chron. 22:7-9). Likewise, the Babylonian Chronicle attests to the historicity of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and his conquest of Jerusalem as recorded in 2 Kings 25. Other examples could be cited, but these are sufficient to show that archaeology has corroborated some information in the Bible.

 

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/982front.html

 

 

In my humble opinion of course, this just means you have a book of false promises as a mirror to something that doesn't exist.

 

While I respect your opinion, I do suggest that perhaps a good read of history and archeology may be helpful for you to have a well- educated opinion. Personally, I think many can agree with me that we have found it to contain many true promises.

[Enema]

you don't have to go very far, just look at this LS, how far people go astray from ways of God, what consequences they receive

 

The problems people post on Loveshack are certainly not exclusive to non-believers.

 

This is a very poor example. Do you have anything better?

[Lovelybird]

The problems people post on Loveshack are certainly not exclusive to non-believers.

 

This is a very poor example. Do you have anything better?

I said "how far they astray from the ways of God", the way they act is very far from God's ways, I didn't say believer or nonbeliever

[CheeseAdept]

I'm gonna have to say that the bible has some historical accuracy in it. But i'll also say that a book that has been around for that long and passed through so many languages and power sources has to be also incredibly inaccurate in some areas, History wise....anyways.

[Lovelybird]

Joseph was a righteous man, his negative situation wasn't because he sined, but God used his negative situation and worked them for Joseph's good

 

when David sined, he turned to God and repented, and God forgave him and continue blessed him although punished him for his sin as well

Edited January 6, 2008 by Lovelybird

[Enema]

I am hoping that you literally did not mean everything, but I have to take you at your word.

 

Apologies for making you write a long post. I of course, did not mean the archaeological accuracies as these are mundane arguments and do not concern me.

 

I refer to the wild claims that contradict reality: The story of creation, gods existence, jesus' existence, jesus' divinity, the flood, tower of babel etc, etc.

 

These type of unreal claims is what I was referring to when I mentioned the bible being open to interpretation and unprovable.

 

Personally, I think many can agree with me that we have found it to contain many true promises.

 

....do tell

[Enema]

I said "how far they astray from the ways of God", the way they act is very far from God's ways, I didn't say believer or nonbeliever

 

Ok, just to be clear then:

 

You believe that bad things only happen to people who stray from the ways of god?

[JamesM]

I'm gonna have to say that the bible has some historical accuracy in it. But i'll also say that a book that has been around for that long and passed through so many languages and power sources has to be also incredibly inaccurate in some areas, History wise....anyways.

 

 

I understand your concerns. Perhaps if you have not done so before, it would help you to read about the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery. These were some old scrolls found that showed that the Bible has not lost accuracy over the years.

 

http://www.biblicalarcheology.net/archives/24

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266