Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[Geishawhelk]

By the way, I checked out that Buddhist site! I did yoga for two years.

 

Marlena

 

*Off-Topic*...Did you stop?

 

Why was that? (if it is neither intrusive nor personal... feel free to tell me to keep my nose out!)

 

I teach Qi Gong, which is more Sino-spiritual than Indo-spiritual...

I find it suits my temperament and "dedication" better... (to the practice, not to the Calling....!)

[marlena]

Yes, I did stop. Many reasons I can't go into right now. Perhaps the basic reason was the feeling that ideas were being ever so insidiously being planted into my subconscious mind. For instance, the disassociation concept bothered me. I wanted to keep having my passions and free thoughts.

 

Another thing was the monetary exploitation. Oh, and the blind worship of a guru! I won't reveal the name. A very good friend of mine who is a teacher at the centre, sleeps with his picture under her pillow. She also has his picture as a screen saver on his PC. I am not into worshipping anyone.

 

Still, I did take away many positive things from the experience. Often, I think of going back.

 

Perhaps I just outgrew it. I tend to get enthused about new things and then drop them. Bad, I know!

[Geishawhelk]

I wanted to keep having my passions and free thoughts.

In this case I would say you were mis-guided (that is to say, that you were guided in an inappropriate or unskilful manner....) The whole point is to cultivate thise aspects of these emotions that are constructive, and to be guided into seeing and understnading which aspects might hold you back... But to try to eliminate them completely is not generally the objective....

 

Oh, and the blind worship of a guru! I won't reveal the name. A very good friend of mine who is a teacher at the centre, sleeps with his picture under her pillow. She also has his picture as a screen saver on his PC.

Neither wholesome nor correct thinking, imv.... It leads to hero-worship, which is not Mindful....

Still, I did take away many positive things from the experience. Often, I think of going back.

No. I think you would be well advised to return to Yoga by all means, but that perhaps you should cast your net wider. not all yogic centres are like this, i promise.....

 

Perhaps I just outgrew it. I tend to get enthused about new things and then drop them. Bad, I know!

 

Is that a subliminal warning to any future boyfriends....?

[marlena]

Is that a subliminal warning to any future boyfriends....?

 

Nah, unless they are shmucks!!

[JamesM]

I hate to answer this because it is nice if we stay on topic, but a few points I will touch upon. The rest I leave alone because it will drag us farther off topic if I respond.

 

 

You miss understand me. My point was that if god is real, then it is natural, and is subject to the scientific method. You are the one claiming that their is a supernatural. Things that somehow are beyond existance, yet still exist. I am completely open to evidence of a powerful being, so far undiscovered, and possibly with the abilities to "create", but I am rejecting any claim that anyone knows what, who, how, why, where it is.

 

And if God existed, why does He need to be natural only? Simply a rhetorical question, because there is no rule that says He has to be such. I will link you to a good essay on naturalism with no intention for further discussion of it. But I think it is good to read.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/cslphilos/CSLnat.htm

 

But to claim that you know something without proof, is disingenuous.

 

Again, somewhat semantics as you would say. You are correct...one cannot know something without proof. But the question becomes what proof is enough proof to know something?

 

Sure. Biology clearly shows that all humans are born of mommies and daddies. I could show you my birth certificate, but I would suggest that you not have faith in the information on it.

 

Yet so many examples of things similar to birth certificates can be shown that you DO put "faith in the information." I am guessing that throughout your day many documents are used when you make decisions.

 

I have irrational beliefs too, and I'm not likely to let them go. An science would never claim to be able to measure all past, present, and future. Our scientific method is quite good at recognizing it's limitations.

 

Beliefs are not simply irrational because they cannot be proved by the scientific method. When you (generic you) do not believe something that someone else does, their belief is not irrational simply because you do not believe it. I do not believe that Hilary Clinton would make a good president, but I do believe that Governor Richardson would. This cannot be tested by the Scientific Method. My evidences are good. Others would disagree and their interpretation is just as valid. Yet one is correct and one is not.

 

But don't pretend that you repect all beliefs or that they are somehow beyond criticism.

 

Two issues. Beliefs that I respect are not beyond criticism.

[Geishawhelk]

Yes, apologies for taking the subject off-topic, but the topic was off topic, so the topic went off off topic.

Now back on topic...

 

(sorry, off topic....)

 

The constructs we fabricate for ourselves will all de-construct, because the only real and reliable tester is to die, and them come back and give an exclusive interview to Sky.....

All discussion on what-is, whati-is-not, Faith, belief, why and wherefore, is unending and ultimately, unproductive.

providing we all underatnd, accept and agree that all discussion on this thread (except that comment about scmuck B/Fs from marlena ) is open to opinion and question....

Then that's ok, isn't it?

 

the trouble is...on this basis, how can a discussion draw to a conclusion?

[shadowofman]

I am no longer allowed to disrespect beliefs. I am truely sorry if anyone has taken offense to anything I have said. It has always been my goal to have a discussion, never to harm.

 

I have throughly expressed my opinions on this matter and bid you all fairwell, and a Happy New Year.

[Geishawhelk]

'Dispute' is not the same as 'disrespect'. You may dispute all you like, that is your privilege.

but disrespect is another matter.

 

do you see?

 

"The best way to end a war is to not fire the retaliatory shot."

 

 

Well done shadowofman.

I salute you.

 

Happy New Year to you too.

[shadowofman]

I'm not leaving because I want to.

[marlena]

I'm not leaving because I want to.

 

Them why then? I don't thnk you have been disrespectful at all. I love reading your posts. I learn from them. Please, don't go!

[JamesM]

'Dispute' is not the same as 'disrespect'. You may dispute all you like, that is your privilege.

but disrespect is another matter.

 

 

I agree. If we all had this attitude here, much would be learned by all.

[Geishawhelk]

I'm not leaving because I want to.

Then don't leave. The only compunction to leave - or to do othewise - is from within you.

Nobody has asked you to leave, nobody has suggested you leave, nobody wants you to leave.

So -

Don't leave!

 

Why on earth would you feel you should?

[Lovelybird]

I don't believe you. While I do believe that your belief in God makes you feel good, and that when you "ask", you receive feelings of fullfillment, I don't believe you are receiving anything from a god.

One day you will

 

 

I believe that you are personally making a judgement as to your own personal morality, and you are attributing it to a higher power. I do not doubt for a second your ability to judge right from wrong, but I do doubt that you are receiving knowledge from anyone but yourself.

I had a quote about "you are wise in your own eyes, but God weigh the heart." I know what I am thinking and where I came from. God changed me. I was proud for no reason; I was rebellious and stubborn, none of these did me good, but only harm. I don't want to be a person who think self is wise, but do wrong things and not wise in others eyes. I ask God what he wants me to do, where I should improve

 

Scripture on the other hand is a source outside yourself. And I don't agree with many of the scriptures either. For instance, scripture that claims that homosexuality is wrong. I can not agree with this because it goes against my personal morality. It is my opinion scripture like this is more likely from the devil than from a loving god

Scripture is words of God, it has its own power to change heart, bring peace and harmony. when I was rebellious, I didn't like some of part in it, like submissive. now i am thinking I was only finding trouble for myself by rebellions, also pissed off many other persons. When I choose to obey God, the amazing peace and rejoice is what I get

 

God hates sin but love people, a returning and repentant heart he loves most. in the scripture, Lord said God welcomed a lost sinful son with open arms, and God run toward the son when the son wanted to come back to his father and sorry for what he did in the past

we have different levels of understand to "moral", we define moral differently, one thing is ok and moral for one person, abut isn't ok and immoral for another person. but God has ultimate and final say. what we can do is to do our best, we ask God to clease us and improve us. What he requires from us? a humble and open heart, and obey him

Happy new year to you too

[Lovelybird]

I have difficulty understanding your answers.

 

Perhaps you could simply say Yes or No?

 

" You believe that bad things only happen to people who stray from the ways of god?"

your question isn't one that simple YES or NO can answer:D I can think of several scriptures for this question, and this is what I believe

 

 

Romans 8:28

And we know that all that happens to us is working for our good if we love God and are fitting into his plans

 

Proverbs 5:18

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.

5:19

The way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they don't know what they stumble over.

14:26

In the fear of the Lord one has strong confidence

[Enema]

Why on earth would you feel you should?

 

I smell a nazi-mod.

 

Oft have they gazed upon me with bared fangs and the stick of fascism.

[a4a]

your question isn't one that simple YES or NO can answer:D I can think of several scriptures for this question, and this is what I believe

 

 

Romans 8:28

And we know that all that happens to us is working for our good if we love God and are fitting into his plans

 

Proverbs 5:18

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.

5:19

The way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they don't know what they stumble over.

14:26

In the fear of the Lord one has strong confidence

 

 

Can't you answer for yourself?

[Geishawhelk]

I smell a nazi-mod.

 

Oft have they gazed upon me with bared fangs and the stick of fascism.

 

:laugh:

[shadowofman]

Ok, ok, I don't really have to leave. But I cannot be engaging in the "dispute" in a genuine way any longer. Thank you Marlena for the support, but most people don't feel the way that you do. Representative Democracy has declared me obscene and abrasive, and while I think this not correct, I must change my ways if I wish to stay. It will be hard, not being free to express myself, but that's the way the cookie crumbs.

 

(Hopefully this message reaches you as others have not)

[Lovelybird]

if you want your life be improved and bright as others, don't spend energy to belittle them who are successful, but spend energy to improve yourself and life

[shadowofman]

I am quite happy with the way that I am, while I will always see room for improvement. I am not belittleing others. Only their beliefs. I expect no less criticism of my beliefs. I love you lovelybird, but I have no respect for your beliefs. People seem to think that I am attacking them personally when I attack their idea of god. I only seek to enlighten you, as you seek to enlighten me.

[Lovelybird]

I am quite happy with the way that I am, while I will always see room for improvement. I am not belittleing others. Only their beliefs. I expect no less criticism of my beliefs. I love you lovelybird, but I have no respect for your beliefs. People seem to think that I am attacking them personally when I attack their idea of god. I only seek to enlighten you, as you seek to enlighten me.

I love you too, comparably you are friendly one

enlighten? I just want to share what I have, if you don't want, fine

[shadowofman]

Yes, enlighten. We all want to do it. It's where we believe we know the truth, and we want to share the truth with others. You believe that the bible is the truth, so you quote scripture to us.

 

I believe that the truth is unknown, so I try to convince you that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Lovelybird]

today's people need hope more than anything else. it is what we live for and strive for. we all have hopes, some small some big. some simple such as tomorrow is better than today; some simple faith such as my wife will be faithful to me.

 

when I see a person sad, or troubled, I want to say "just ask God for solution, just trust in him", because that is what he did for me, it is more like testimonies than enlightment

[shadowofman]

today's people need hope more than anything else. it is what we live for and strive for. we all have hopes, some small some big. some simple such as tomorrow is better than today; some simple faith such as my wife will be faithful to me.

 

I agree with what you say about hope, that people need it, but I personally believe that the hope you offer is false. It is up to everyone as individuals to decide this for themselves what hope is best, and to allow all opinions to be expressed.

 

Faith in your spouse is really just trust in a person. Faith implies that you have no evidence and yet you still believe. If you have no evidence that your spouse loves you, then you lose trust, not faith. Faith would remain in the absince of evidence.

Ex. "My husband beats me, but I have faith that he loves me."

 

when I see a person sad, or troubled, I want to say "just ask God for solution, just trust in him", because that is what he did for me, it is more like testimonies than enlightment

 

Wouldn't it be just as good to tell them to search their heart for the answer? I have to be honest with you lovely, I don't think you hear anything from god. How is this communication completed? What does god sound like? Are you actually hearing a voice, or do you just know the will of god intuitively? How do you know you just didn't come up with the answer on your own?

 

I don't know your denomination, but not all faithful claim to hear god like you do. Catholics for example believe that the pope is the only one that can hear God.

[marlena]

I have to be honest with you lovely, I don't think you hear anything from god. How is this communication completed? What does god sound like? Are you actually hearing a voice, or do you just know the will of god intuitively? How do you know you just didn't come up with the answer on your own?

 

 

Once again, I agree with Shadow. The voice of God that believers claim to hear is a voice of their own making. It is not a real voice. It is a feeling, an intuition, a nuance of a sound that comes from within themselves, perhaps from their NEED to believe.

 

Conversely, the voice of reason is the voice of an inquisitive brain at work. It is the voice of logic that philosophers throughout the ages have tried to apply to any theory in order to authenticate it.

 

The man who chopped up his girlfriend heard the voice of God or so he claimed. No voice of God there. Just the voice of his own mental disease commanding him to do what he did.

 

Oh, and of course, it goes without saying, like Shadow pointed out, that attacking one's beliefs is not at all the same as attacking the believer. This applies to everything from politics to religion and beyond.

 

Voltaire says it better than I or Shadow ever could.

 

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire