Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[THE THRONE]

It would- and it does frustrate me, because I have heard it before too.

I have an aunt that corners me at family functions and tells me I better embrace Jesus or I'm going to go to Hell. I think it goes both ways. Being a Religious Studies Major- I had many fellow students tell me I was going to hell... lol.

 

I enjoy discussing beliefs- because it is interesting... I love bantering back and forth.... sharpening my art of discussion.

 

Personal attacks have no place in a healthy discussion. The problem is that when you have a discussion about something as passionate as this... people get offended easily. Sometimes I am guilty of this too.

 

Of course I'd be offended if someone told me I was ridiculous to believe what I believe. You can talk to me about it- but don't attack me for it. That's how I see it.

I understand where you are coming from.

 

 

Why do you feel the need to remind us that you're a religious studies major? I can recall at least three times where you've mentioned this.

[JamesM]

Apologies for making you write a long post. I of course, did not mean the archaeological accuracies as these are mundane arguments and do not concern me.

 

I refer to the wild claims that contradict reality: The story of creation, gods existence, jesus' existence, jesus' divinity, the flood, tower of babel etc, etc.

 

These type of unreal claims is what I was referring to when I mentioned the bible being open to interpretation and unprovable.

 

Interesting. Apology accepted. Perhaps all of the Bible should be of concern.

 

Ah, the ones that seem to matter the most. Sorry if I don't quite buy the idea that God's existence is a wild claim. Strong arguments have been made about this for centuries, and rebuttals have been refuted. Perhaps some reading in to these arguments may prove helpful to you. Here is the mirror analogy. Your view in that mirror avoids the evidence that shows His existence...my view does not. Even Jesus' existence has historical evidence showing that He existed. This was covered on the Jesus Capricorn thread a little bit. While this does not show His divinity, there is hardly an argument that He existed.

 

While an attempt to move this thread towards creationism and the Flood is possible, this can be covered in a different thread. In fact, this thread really isn't even about whether God exists. The assumption in this tread has been that He does. This thread has been about His letting bad things happen.

[Enema]

At this point, it almost always boils down to each persons definition of "evidence".

 

Non-believers want something real, tangible, observable, testable and repeatable.

 

Believers are happy to accept much less.

 

In fact, this thread really isn't even about whether God exists.

I agree, let's leave the discussion of gods existence right here. I've been spamming this thread far too much as it is.

[Geishawhelk]

Ah, does this mean we're getting back "On-Topic"?

 

So the original question (posed by our good friend, Mr Moose) -

"Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?" Is back under discussion.

I appreciate, insofar as I can tell from his first post that he's asking folk to lay off God, blaming him all the time.... but if we take the question as read, you must therefore, through logic, then continue to pose the other three.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

(We Buddhists function on logic, doncha know....!)

[D-Lish]

Why do you feel the need to remind us that you're a religious studies major? I can recall at least three times where you've mentioned this.

 

What's your issue 7 legged goat?

Whatever it is , let it go.

[THE THRONE]

What's your issue 7 legged goat?

Whatever it is , let it go.

 

No issue D-licker, but the fact that you told us four times now that you're a religious studies major leads me to believe you're attempting an appeal to authority argument. I took one post of yours, replied to every point you made and did so without attacking you or insulting you. What did you do? Ignore it. Now when I ask about your tactics you attempt to insult THE THRONE and make it seem as if he is the bad guy.

 

No one cares if you wasted years of your life studying something you really have no interest in. Yes, I'm asking, but I'm not asking because I care. I'm asking because you're presenting a very shabby argument, and what few points of interest you did make are rendered utterly useless and downright tiresome due the fact you keep reminding us that you love to waste your time.

Edited January 7, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Lovelybird]

Ok, just to be clear then:

 

You believe that bad things only happen to people who stray from the ways of god?

In fact before you ask this question, I answered it in post #247

 

Every one make mistakes. Spiritual walk is a narrow road to travel but full of blessings. people swing between choose life (fruits of spirit) and death (fruits of flesh). sometimes it is difficult to choose forgiveness or unforgiveness; to choose walk away or evil against evil; to choose cheating or faithfulness. But the more you train yourself to choose life, the more it will get easier and you get everlasting beautiful fruits. If you choose death, the more you let yourself go, the more you surrender to flesh, and you will get bad smell fruits easily rotten

 

and a person who don't look at mirror don't even know where the dirt locates

[Enema]

In fact before you ask this question, I answered it in post #247

 

Every one make mistakes. Spiritual walk is a narrow road to travel but full of blessings. people swing between choose life (fruits of spirit) and death (fruits of flesh). sometimes it is difficult to choose forgiveness or unforgiveness; to choose walk away or evil against evil; to choose cheating or faithfulness. But the more you train yourself to choose life, the more it will get easier and you get everlasting beautiful fruits. If you choose death, the more you let yourself go, the more you surrender to flesh, and you will get bad smell fruits easily rotten

 

and a person who don't look at mirror don't even know where the dirt locates

 

I have difficulty understanding your answers.

 

Perhaps you could simply say Yes or No?

 

" You believe that bad things only happen to people who stray from the ways of god?"

Edited January 6, 2008 by Enema

[JamesM]

Ah, does this mean we're getting back "On-Topic"?

 

So the original question (posed by our good friend, Mr Moose) -

"Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?" Is back under discussion.

I appreciate, insofar as I can tell from his first post that he's asking folk to lay off God, blaming him all the time.... but if we take the question as read, you must therefore, through logic, then continue to pose the other three.....

 

(We Buddhists function on logic, doncha know....!)

 

So, let's try.....elaborate on the highlighted sentence. We must pose the other three what?

[THE THRONE]

And why does God let "bad things" happen to people?

 

A.) Because there is no such being as "god"

 

B.) Because "he" doesn't really care about us

 

C. Epicurus' position and "god" is not involved with the affairs of man (DEISM)

 

D.) Because "he" is "testing" us

 

Is God one of the most hypocritical beings to ever live? How can you send a person to hell for NOT taking care of his "brother" yet you have the ability to stop famine/hunger of your "children" and you don't lift a finger?

Edited January 7, 2008 by THE THRONE

[Tony T]

God has nothing to do with it. God gave man a free will, therefore men let bad things happen to themselves...or if bad things happen to them they don't take responsibility or they don't handle the results well.

 

Leave God alone. He's way too busy keeping the universe in order. Sometimes bad things end up being good things in hindsight. Nobody knows the mind of God.

 

Leave God alone and take some of the blame for whatever happens. Things we call Acts of God are often acts of physics or scientific phenomena. God sets things into motion and goes off elsewhere. God did not make the earth to be heaven. In Heaven there are no hurricanes or wildfires. You see, in His infinite wisdom He gave us something to look forward to.

[THE THRONE]

God has nothing to do with it. God gave man a free will, therefore men let bad things happen to themselves...or if bad things happen to them they don't take responsibility or they don't handle the results well.

 

Leave God alone. He's way too busy keeping the universe in order. Sometimes bad things end up being good things in hindsight. Nobody knows the mind of God.

 

Leave God alone and take some of the blame for whatever happens. Things we call Acts of God are often acts of physics or scientific phenomena. God sets things into motion and goes off elsewhere. God did not make the earth to be heaven. In Heaven there are no hurricanes or wildfires. You see, in His infinite wisdom He gave us something to look forward to.

 

Men "let" bad things happen to themselves? Since when did children in Africa who are born with aids let it happen to them? Thats like the instance when the religious leaders came to Jesus and asked him about the blind man and who sinned (his or his parents?) Many people don't "let" bad things happen to them, and while you may think certain things are "fot the glory of God" I think otherwise. Again, "God" has the power to ease suffering and to feed people yet he doesn't. However, this same "god" will send you to a place of punishment (which will eventually be tossed into a place that burns forever) because YOU didn't lift your hand to help feed your brother.

[Trialbyfire]

Moose, is it truly God that made you want to do good things with your bad experiences or was it that you managed to turn your life around enough to want to help others?

 

If God isn't responsible for any of the bad things since he's technically MIA, he can't be allocated all the good things too.

[Storyrider]

More and more lately I feel God is neutral, rather than good or evil. I don't see any evidence in the world that He is only good. If it is His world, and there is both good and bad in it, then the most logical conclusion (if He exists) is that He is a mixed bag.

 

More and more, I think about the Bible quote that says humans are made in God's image. What are humans about at the core? In fact, what is every living thing about? Survival. I'm beginning to think God is also trying to survive. Yes, He is supposedly eternal, but what is the mechanism behind that? How do we fit into that picture? Why does he want us to pray to Him, follow His rules, make sacrifices to Him. What is in it for Him? What is in it for Him to save or damn us?

 

I think there is love there, but there also seems to be a certain ruthlessness, like we are somehow fodder for his mill. I don't know. I'm tired and babbling...

[vivrantflo]

We are God's creation, and He loves each and every one of us. Even those that do not believe in Him. God wants us to pray to Him, because He wants us to have a personal relationship with Him. Being saved isn't just believing that He's exists, and doing what's "right" by our standards... It's believing that Christ died on the cross for our sins, and allowing Him to control our lives. If every person on Earth followed His Rules and commandments, the world would be a MUCH better place for us to live in.

 

What's in it for Him? He wants to spend all of eternity with His creation.. you and I. However, He did not create humans like robots where we are all born, and then programmed to worship Him, and live our lives for Him. He allowed us to have to choice whether to follow Him or not. Every person on Earth has a yearning for God that was placed there by Him.. the intensity of that yearning varies from person to person, but it's up to you to decide if you want to follow it, or ignore it.

[Geishawhelk]

So, let's try.....elaborate on the highlighted sentence. We must pose the other three what?

 

Ah. I knew someone lucid would finally pick up...

 

We must by rights pose the other three logical questions, that must, by sheer logic, accompany the first.

On the premise of the first question, it then follows:

 

Why does God let bad things happen to guilty people?

Why does God let good things happen to innocent people?

Why does God let good things happen to Guilty people?

 

One cannot pose a question, such as the example taken in Moose's first post, without logically asking these too.

 

It's a stupid question, that assumes much, and answering the others - or even just asking them - takes the heat out of it, and evens up the balance.

The answer is, that there is no apportioning of blame, because the question is an unintelligent one. (I'm not implying Moose is an idiot, and he's not even 'asking' the question, but you know what I mean.)

Taking the premise of God, He created man and woman, but then gave them free will to exercise and to be the keepers of their own fate.

Every choice has a consequence. Full stop.

 

We have to bear in mind also, that the consequences of these specific choices - even if they are Right by our evaluation - will, somewhere along the line, have a detrimental effect on someone - or something- else. No matter how right we try to judge it, the law of physics and energy, comes into play.

For every Action, there is an equal and opposite Reaction."

So whatever Good i personally try to generate and engender, something, somewhere else, has got to give.

This is how personally, I must be Mindful of the things i think, say and do. because no matter how well-meaning, generous, kind, altruistic and loving my thoughts, words and deeds might be, there will be an proportionally opposite consequence elsewhere.....

 

so this twaddle' about Why God lets things happen, is a misguided principle to think upon, and is a waste of time and energy.

It creates conflict, disharmony, argument, constant bickering, one-upmanship and discord.

[shadowofman]

Here IS an interesting topic. WHY do you think dragons did not exist? Because they do not now? Have you ever considered that dragons are an exaggeration of what we call dinosaurs? Truthfully. And yes, I DO think there is some factual basis for dragons. While I have a hard time believing that dragons breathed fire, I have just as hard of a time believing that all the dragon tales are from one person's imagination.

 

Actually, I don't find this silly at all. Allow me to get more specific and use the invisible dragon example. If someone told you there was an invisible dragon in their garage right now, would you find this belief silly?

 

 

 

You are welcome, but I don't think I was the first. And why do you believe that these invisible "natural" things are more real than God, the Devil, and angels? Because they can be tested with the scientific method? Or perhaps instead because evidence can be seen from the action of these "invisible things?" So, if you open your eyes, then you can see evidences of God.

 

You miss understand me. My point was that if god is real, then it is natural, and is subject to the scientific method. You are the one claiming that their is a supernatural. Things that somehow are beyond existance, yet still exist. I am completely open to evidence of a powerful being, so far undiscovered, and possibly with the abilities to "create", but I am rejecting any claim that anyone knows what, who, how, why, where it is. That it's name is god. That it created us. That you know it's intentions or alignments. That it uses magic, or some other unreal force.

Of course this is a semantic argument.

 

 

 

So, the only things you believe are what can be tested by the Scientific Method? Can the only things believable...present, past or future be testable? This is not even logical. While you seem to think history is completely unbelievable, this is not the case. Many facts are based not on science but on history.

 

If you seperate the term belief from guess or intuition, as I do, then yes. You could say that you believe in what you have proof of, and you guess there is a god and I would accept that. But to claim that you know something without proof, is disingenuous.

 

Can you show proof via the Scientific Method that you were born? Or are you going to show me historical records?

 

Sure. Biology clearly shows that all humans are born of mommies and daddies. I could show you my birth certificate, but I would suggest that you not have faith in the information on it.

 

Can you measure all that has happened or all that will happen? No. My goal has never been to convince you nor will it ever be. Proving to you that my belief is not silly does not somehow validate it in my mind.

 

And that is ok! Stick to your guns if you want to. I have irrational beliefs too, and I'm not likely to let them go. An science would never claim to be able to measure all past, present, and future. Our scientific method is quite good at recognizing it's limitations.

 

Example...you (based on other threads) call yourself bisexual. You have attraction to men and women. You say that you were born with something that makes you not monogamous. I consider that claim silly. Can you measure to my satisfaction this claim? Most people would say that your lack of commitment has nothing to do with your genes and everything to do with your mind. How can you prove them wrong?

 

I fully admit that my claim in this respect is a hunch. A very educated guess. The gay gene has not been discovered. Nor has a promiscuousness gene. I suspect that they will be concidering the phenotypical evidence that supports the intuition. Your own statement refects my perspective actually. My mind is a product of my genes. I won't argue this statement.

 

 

And why is your reality worth examining? And why does your view that I am delusional worth refuting? Why do I need to prove I am not? Interesting points, but meaningless.

 

It's your choice to refute.

 

Selective examination on your part may lead you to conclude that your perception of reality IS reality, but why does it then mean that others who disagree with your perceptions are delusional?

 

It's only my opinion that they are delusional. Is suspect you believe people are delusional as well, just unwilling to admit it. What if I believed that I had to kill infidels in order to get into heaven? Would you call me delusional?

 

Actually, I disagree. While I think that atheists are wrong, that does not mean that I disrespect their views. They have reached their conclusions based on their interpretation of the evidences. I reached a different conclusion. Yet I am smart enough to know that if I want to continually educate myself, then I can only do that if I do not arrogantly decide that my way is the only right way and those that differ are "silly" or "delusional." And there are Buddhists and other beliefs that post on this Board....I respect their opinions and want to hear them. I do not try to convince them (and atheists) that they are wrong, but I do try to show them why I believe I am right. This provides for open discussions that help us all learn.

 

Then I would make the distinction that you are respecting the individuals right to believe, and that you have a genuine interest in hearing different opinions, as I am interested. But don't pretend that you repect all beliefs or that they are somehow beyond criticism.

 

Any other attitude leads to close minded arrogance and bigotry.

 

Only if you are a fundimentalist, which I am opposed to as well.

[shadowofman]

so this twaddle' about Why God lets things happen, is a misguided principle to think upon, and is a waste of time and energy.

It creates conflict, disharmony, argument, constant bickering, one-upmanship and discord.

 

But not to the child with lukemia, it is a completely valid question. When a person claims to know that God loves you and you have the opinion that the opposite is true, there is nothing wrong with expressing this notion. Moose's question is completely valid.

 

On the premise of the first question, it then follows:

Why does God let bad things happen to guilty people?

Why does God let good things happen to innocent people?

Why does God let good things happen to Guilty people?

 

Almost implied in the first question, and equally as valid.

[DutchGuy]

If every person on Earth followed His Rules and commandments, the world would be a MUCH better place for us to live in.

 

Come again?

May I point out that, although all claim to have frequent convesation with 'Him' and therefore KNOW what 'He' would like us to be, there is a lot of disagreement amongst the followers of Jesus?

There are people that are racist based on the bible and people that are not, also based on the bible.

The KKK lynched black christians for crying out loud.

There are those who think homosexuality is sin based on the bible and those that believe that god has no problems with being gay.

There are people that fight wars for christianity and people who think murder is sin.

Even priests, the guys that know god personally and are able to 'translate' the words of god to us, can't agree on these things.

What's the matter guys? Does the connection fail every time you bring up the subject?

[Lovelybird]

When you mention Christians, they aren't one single person, they are on many different levels of spiritual walk with Lord, they are maybe baby christians, they are maybe mature christians, there are even flesh (worldly) christians who don't read bible and don't believe in Bible (maybe one day at right time they will, who knows)

 

On different level Holy Spirit maybe have different requirements for you. "much be given, much be required". sometimes HS knows you cannot achieve certain requirement, but He always helps to improve you, always press forward

 

so how can we know which is true? Invite Lord himself come into heart, ask him to give you Holy Spirit to desern and teach you, this is the most sure way, and read Bible, anything against Bible is not from God

 

 

 

KKK? they are too much out of line!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Lovelybird

[shadowofman]

KKK? they are too much out of line!

 

They think you are out of line. Should we respect this belief? even though I value their right to believe whatever, I will never respect their beliefs.

 

so how can we know which is true? Invite Lord himself come into heart, ask him to give you Holy Spirit to desern and teach you, this is the most sure way, and read Bible, anything against Bible is not from God

 

I don't believe you. While I do believe that your belief in God makes you feel good, and that when you "ask", you receive feelings of fullfillment, I don't believe you are receiving anything from a god. I believe that you are personally making a judgement as to your own personal morality, and you are attributing it to a higher power. I do not doubt for a second your ability to judge right from wrong, but I do doubt that you are receiving knowledge from anyone but yourself.

 

Scripture on the other hand is a source outside yourself. And I don't agree with many of the scriptures either. For instance, scripture that claims that homosexuality is wrong. I can not agree with this because it goes against my personal morality. It is my opinion scripture like this is more likely from the devil than from a loving god.

[Geishawhelk]

But not to the child with lukemia, it is a completely valid question. When a person claims to know that God loves you and you have the opinion that the opposite is true, there is nothing wrong with expressing this notion. Moose's question is completely valid.

 

Valid, but un-answerable, hence their illogical essence.

There is no point endlessly pondering on questions that have no coherent logical response. No matter on "which side" your response originates, it is pure speculation.

 

One might as well ask,

"Why me?"

 

The answer to which can only be -

"Why NOT me?"

[marlena]

The code of morals we decide to subscribe is grounded in a personal assessment of what we as rational human beings decide is "right" or "wrong" or whether we even believe in these notions (which I hope we do). This of course is very hard to do. Society will attempt to intergrate us into its system of beliefs/values/morals through the use of ideology which permeates every aspect of our lives. The extent to which we respond to this inculcation of ideas depends largely on the amount of pressure that has been applied on us to conform to what is socially acceptable. The degree to which we conform or resist to this conditioning, I think, depends largely on our intelligence and ability to think for ourselves.

 

So, yes, I agree with Shadowofman,ultimately the knowledge comes from within and not from some divine power above. We CHOOSE to believe or not believe what we are told.

[Geishawhelk]

So, yes, I agree with Shadowofman,ultimately the knowledge comes from within and not from some divine power above. We CHOOSE to believe or not believe what we are told.

 

I'm not sure whether you are responding to me, or commenting generally, Marlena...

 

But personally, I concur.

 

And it therefore follows that if you are not a believer, then the questions are imponderable, because they act merely as a challenge to those who DO believe, and no answer, however logical or founded on faith a believer thinks it is, the non-believer won't buy it. So the questions are not valid - in the sense that they are not logical.

 

A believer conversly, will not have the answers, because a Christian holds the conviction that an all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing god has mysteries that cannot be comprehended by a mortal being. God asks that you have faith in him an all his works, and to come to him through Jesus Christ.

 

A Christian is well aware that there are many thousands of people who purport to be God-fearing and faithful followers of their creed - but whose actions leave much to be desired, with regard to attitude towards their fellow men.

similarly, Christians are aware that there are countless thousands of altruistic, good, kind, generous and loving people on the planet, who are intent on relieving suffering and helping others - but who do not believe in God.

The fundamental bottom line is that you do not come to God save through acknowlegement, and through His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

Christians accept that there are some questions relating to God and his Plans, that are imponderable.

Atheists accept that whatever God-based questions they ask of christians, no answer - based on faith, Trust and belief - is going to cut the mustard.

 

Ergo, this thread, the questions and the cogitation thereon - are a waste of energy.

 

as to you last comment, on choice of belief or non-belief, this has to be based on careful thought, examination, understanding and logical discrimination.

And only when you have looked at all the choices, in light of these criteria, can you make a choice based on belief - but a belief founded on confidence, not a belief founded on hope, desire of simple 'Blind faith'.

An atheist will tell you he has made his choices based on these criteria.

But then, so will a christian.

So the bottom line is that each must follow his own path, and be permitted to make these choices, and Live with them, and their consequences.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[marlena]

Ergo, this thread, the questions and the cogitation thereon - are a waste of energy.

 

 

 

 

 

Talking to anyone who believes in anything blindly is indeed unproductive chatter. There is no possibility of reaching a general concensus when two positions are so diametrically opposed a priori. Arguments, logic, reasoning fall on deaf ears ( or should I say blind eyes?)

 

Still, it is enlightening! Even the blind have something to say.

 

So the questions are not valid - in the sense that they are not logical.

 

 

The questions are not logical only to the believer who adheres to blind faith whether the origins of his faith are derived from the scripture or from an inner voice that he "feels" is the voice of God. The "blind" believer (fundamentalists) by definition rejects logic and reasoning. So yes, it is debate that inevitably leads to a quandary.

 

The connection between God and morality is indeed an interesting one. Like you said, you do not have to be a believer to practice the general tenets of any faith as far as good/bad, right/wrong are concerned. Organizations, Doctors of the World jumps to mind, are practicing Christian/Muslim/Buddhist charity without purporting to worship an omipotent and omniscient diety. Their reasons are clearly humanitarian. Many believers are doing the same of course. The opposite, like you pointed out, also is true but I won't go into that right now. Suffice it to say that, yes, hypocrisy in religions is rampant.

 

..and so the debate will continue down the ages without ever being won by either one group or another. Like you said, all we can do is follow our own path.

 

By the way, I checked out that Buddhist site! I did yoga for two years.

 

Marlena