Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[Geishawhelk]

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

 

And this is the repect I'm talking about, Shadow.

And indeed, the respect you showed to Lovelybird in your discussion with her. Perfect. You said nothing to belittle her, nor to insult her. In fact, you were extremely respectful. But you made it perfectly clear that you do not consider what she is saying or believing in, to be anything you would ever be able to agree with or adopt.

And this is all I was saying.

 

Disputing the belief, is not the same as disrespecting it.

I always love speaking with you, wherever, and on whatever topic.

I feel you put a great deal of thought into your words, and are eager to expound what you perceive, but in many cases, you are open to listening to other opinions and possibly re-thinking some things.

In this case, you cannot be moved.

And that's fine, as far as I am concerned... (like, I matter....!)

in other cases, I know you have occasionally taken a step back and had a re-think, a re-evaluation.

You may not have changed your mind, but at least you have absorbed the different comments and opinions you asked people to come forward with....

 

That's respect. You may disbelieve, but you've always respected.

so I think it would be a great shame if you disconnected now.

Personally.

FW my view IW.

[JamesM]

The voice of God that believers claim to hear is a voice of their own making. It is not a real voice. It is a feeling, an intuition, a nuance of a sound that comes from within themselves, perhaps from their NEED to believe.

 

Conversely, the voice of reason is the voice of an inquisitive brain at work. It is the voice of logic that philosophers throughout the ages have tried to apply to any theory in order to authenticate it.

 

 

Interesting. On what do you base this idea that the voice of God believers claim to hear is from within themselves? Why cannot it actually BE God? If we ourselves have not experienced the "voice of God," then how can we decide what the "voice of God really is?

 

BTW, while some believers claim to hear God's voice within them and yes, it could be that God directed their intuition, many say that God speaks to them through the Bible.

 

And why is it that the "voice of reason" cannot be clouded by emotions and intuition? For the sake of argument, if God is real, then Satan is real. And cannot Satan speak to those who do not believe in God? Can reason be limited by the presuppositions that we make (ie there is not God)?

 

It has been said that logic can be used to determine what possibilities there are, but it does not mean that logic can be used to determine reality. Can everything be reasoned out and rationalized? Why or why not?

[Moose]

Believers don't hear God per say....

 

It's the Holy Spirit they're actually experiencing. Those who don't have the Holy Spirit, (un-believers), will naturally think we're insane. However, those of us who've confessed with a contrite heart receives that Holy Spirit which guides us as we walk with the Lord, AND most importantly, as we read the Scriptures.

 

It's our own conscience that we, "hear" but it's the Holy Spirit that reveals, (to our conscience) that which is right or wrong and which way to go.

[DutchGuy]

Believers don't hear God per say....

 

It's the Holy Spirit they're actually experiencing. Those who don't have the Holy Spirit, (un-believers), will naturally think we're insane. However, those of us who've confessed with a contrite heart receives that Holy Spirit which guides us as we walk with the Lord, AND most importantly, as we read the Scriptures.

 

It's our own conscience that we, "hear" but it's the Holy Spirit that reveals, (to our conscience) that which is right or wrong and which way to go.

 

So, non-believers have no conscience, can't tell right from wrong?

[Moose]

So, non-believers have no conscience, can't tell right from wrong?

No, non-believers do have a conscience, however, it's driven by the individual's own experiences and knowledge and not influenced by the absolutes given to believers by the Holy Spirit.

[DutchGuy]

No, non-believers do have a conscience, however, it's driven by the individual's own experiences and knowledge and not influenced by the absolutes given to believers by the Holy Spirit.

 

How would you know?

[Moose]

How would you know?

Ummm welllll let's see....."I once was lost, but now I'm found".....

 

I've been on both ends of that stick....and just to be clear, my post was directed at believers posting on this thread.

[marlena]

I've been on both ends of that stick....and just to be clear, my post was directed at believers posting on this thread.

 

I was about to answer but I guess I will refrain.

[Moose]

I was about to answer but I guess I will refrain.

I just said it was, "directed" to believers. Your opinions are always welcome.

 

Just curious, though, do you understand the concept of the trinity? Do you understand the concept of God being totally pure and unable to communicate with such filthy creatures? Do you understand that an intercessor is neccessary to act on the believer's behalf?

[DutchGuy]

Ummm welllll let's see....."I once was lost, but now I'm found".....

 

I've been on both ends of that stick....and just to be clear, my post was directed at believers posting on this thread.

 

So if I understand clearly, your initial conscience is added to by the holy spirit. And the conscience of a believer is always absolutely pure, whereas non-believers have a somewhat impaired conscience?

[Moose]

So if I understand clearly, your initial conscience is added to by the holy spirit. And the conscience of a believer is always absolutely pure, whereas non-believers have a somewhat impaired conscience?

Nope.

 

The believer's conscience is just as filthy as the non-believers. And it's for that reason the Holy Spirit is neccessary.

 

I wouldn't say that non-believers have an impaired conscience, I would probably venture to say that non-believers simply lean to their own understanding.

[DutchGuy]

Nope.

 

The believer's conscience is just as filthy as the non-believers. And it's for that reason the Holy Spirit is neccessary.

 

I wouldn't say that non-believers have an impaired conscience, I would probably venture to say that non-believers simply lean to their own understanding.

 

So the holy spirit adds to the believer's conscience with absolute integrity, but with moderation?

Since the influences of the HS are absolute, the influence must be limited?

[marlena]

BTW, while some believers claim to hear God's voice within them and yes, it could be that God directed their intuition, many say that God speaks to them through the Bible

 

 

Admittedly, you make some very good points. Who indeed is to say which is real?

 

Is it the voice of God that some claim to hear or is it the voice or Reason that others claim to hear?

 

I know the voice of reason has its residing place in the brain whilst the voice of God has its abode in the Bible and its teachings.

 

So, I have to choose.

 

I, personally, choose to go with the workings of the brain because I know for a fact that it exists (tangible proof) and gives life to our bodies. If the brain dies, then, for all practical purposes, we are dead. If the Bible and all its teachings were to be effaced/deleted/burnt, no mortal would die.

 

Setting aside all futile,circular arguments regarding faith versus logic, perhaps, it all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

 

Personally, I don't like the either/or of what the Bible expounds, the two extremities.

 

Why must I believe in Heaven or Hell? In repentance or punishment? In green pastures or fire and brimstone?

 

As much as I'd like to adhere to these Christian principles, my brain kicks in rebellion.

 

If I were to believe in any superior power, I would much rather it be grounded on intuition and not the any scriptures that have been adapted and readapted to suit the clergy over the centuries.

 

Peace.

 

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

 

P.S. I think I will make this my signature. What do you guys think?

[Moose]

So the holy spirit adds to the believer's conscience with absolute integrity, but with moderation? Since the influences of the HS are absolute, the influence must be limited?

Not neccessarily limited. We are still left with our own free will to listen to the Holy Spirit. If we did, and if we had enough faith, the results would be limitless.

[Geishawhelk]

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

 

P.S. I think I will make this my signature. What do you guys think?

 

I don't think that's a bad idea at all.

My own personal problem, as far as I am concerned, with specific regard to my own signatures, is - to 'walk the talk' and live by them.....

[JamesM]

 

I, personally, choose to go with the workings of the brain because I know for a fact that it exists (tangible proof) and gives life to our bodies. If the brain dies, then, for all practical purposes, we are dead. If the Bible and all its teachings were to be effaced/deleted/burnt, no mortal would die.

 

Setting aside all futile,circular arguments regarding faith versus logic, perhaps, it all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

 

Why must I believe in Heaven or Hell? In repentance or punishment? In green pastures or fire and brimstone?

 

As much as I'd like to adhere to these Christian principles, my brain kicks in rebellion.

 

If I were to believe in any superior power, I would much rather it be grounded on intuition and not the any scriptures that have been adapted and readapted to suit the clergy over the centuries.

 

Peace.

 

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

 

P.S. I think I will make this my signature. What do you guys think?

 

First, I like your signature. It is a good attitude to have. To take it one step further, it is also good to LISTEN to what others say, because we can learn from them. And I for one will never say that I am completely right.

 

Where has all the facts and information that is in your brain originated? What is the basis of your reason and logic? Did your brain come equipped with perfect reasoning power?

 

And logic vs faith. Can logic give all of the answers so that faith is no longer necessary?

 

Does Heaven and Hell only exist because we believe or do not believe in them? Is God only in existence because people believe in Him? Did Man create God or did God create Man?

 

As for the Bible being adapted and readapted, have you researched the origins of the Bible? Have you seen how little the Bible was found to have changed when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered? Why do you believe that the Bible has been changed many, many times over the years? Who taught you that or where did you read that?

 

And I agree...peace. I learn much from discussion I have here, and that can only be done if the discussions are conducted respectfully and peaceably.

[Lovelybird]

Wouldn't it be just as good to tell them to search their heart for the answer? I have to be honest with you lovely, I don't think you hear anything from god. How is this communication completed? What does god sound like? Are you actually hearing a voice, or do you just know the will of god intuitively? How do you know you just didn't come up with the answer on your own?

.

Holy Spirit is sent by God, they are one, HS knows very secrets about God and reveal those to us at right time, to some more, to some less, and reveal how God thinks and how God wants us to act

 

Yes, i know God's will intuitionally for the part He wants me to know. If I have trouble, and I cannot resolve it by hard thinking, then I ask God what is his opinions. After what he said, everytime bring peace and good solution, and those words sometimes come from Bible, the spirit of Bible is the same spirit. sometimes people mistake their own inner voice (with selfish purpose) with God's voice. something like 'kill your gf', how dumb is that! God taught him 'shall not kill' in his Word in the Bible, he doesn't remember?

 

His voice is hard to describe. like he puts those words in your heart, and I know those words not come from my own thinking, his words always is the high road, toward understanding others and love. when you have a relationship with HS, you will know and improve how effectively communicate with Him, like husband and wife know each other for a long time, first build trust, and communication get better through time and practicing.

 

In fact, there are several voices in your head. Try to listen what you tell yourself about things in your mind and heart, you would be amazed. some people tell themselves all negative stuff all day long without realizing it. what they choose to fill their mind and heart will shape their destiny

 

Joyce Meyer write a book 'how to hear from God', I didn't read it yet, but will soon. if you are interested, it is sold on Amzon

[marlena]

James,

 

I am glad you like my signature. I have always chosen to live by this creed.

 

I would assume that one's viewpoint on the origins of the brain is directly related to one's theory of the beginning of life. Genesis? The Big Bang? The Olympian Gods? Some other theory? Who can say with absolute certitude?

 

We are all right in here, believers and non-believers alike. Nothing has been proven. Everything is mere speculation.

 

Unless someone comes back over from the other side to tell us, we'll never know.

 

All we can do is listen to our inner voice - whether it is the voice of God or the voice of Reason. It really shouldn't matter that much.

 

God gave man a free will and so, each of us, bends to the dictates of that will for which we are ultimately accountable for.

 

Of course, we could go on endlessly debating but we both know it will lead to nowhere.

 

Peace.

 

Marlena

[JamesM]

James,

 

I am glad you like my signature. I have always chosen to live by this creed.

 

 

 

We are all right in here, believers and non-believers alike. Nothing has been proven. Everything is mere speculation.

 

Unless someone comes back over from the other side to tell us, we'll never know.

 

 

 

Of course, we could go on endlessly debating but we both know it will lead to nowhere.

 

Peace.

 

Marlena

 

I do like your signature, and interestingly enough, two nights ago, I read it in a book I was reading that talked about Voltaire.

 

Some would say that things have been proven and it is not speculation, but I do know what you mean.

 

As for the other side, I have always wondered what it would be like to interview someone who had died. While many would laugh and say that they have simply been dead, as you say, we do not know that. So, I would like to interview someone who was in Heaven and one in Hell. How would that change my life?

 

Ah, endless debates DO produce results. We learn and think instead of wandering aimlessly through life. That is why I enjoy these discussions.

[marlena]

James,

 

In order to learn, I am sure you will agree, one has to be open to new ideas. I don't think people who have a fundamentalist approach to religion can be receptive to new thoughts/ideas/possibilities. Of course neither can the agnostic/atheist/un-believer if he, too, is driven by a predetermined thesis from which he refuses to budge an inch. That is the reason that I find any form of fanatical belief counter-productive and frankly a waste of time.

 

It is only when we discuss things with an open mind that we do indeed allow ourselves the gift of learning.

 

In this forum, that rarely happens.

[Geishawhelk]

"Never" is bad.

"Always" is excellent.

"Often" is good.

"Rarely" - is a start.

 

I think, we've made a start....!

 

The secret now, is to remain welcoming and engaging, and willing to keep an open mind with respect and dignity.

 

Cup of cocoa anyone....?

[JamesM]

James,

 

In order to learn, I am sure you will agree, one has to be open to new ideas. I don't think people who have a fundamentalist approach to religion can be receptive to new thoughts/ideas/possibilities. Of course neither can the agnostic/atheist/un-believer if he, too, is driven by a predetermined thesis from which he refuses to budge an inch. That is the reason that I find any form of fanatical belief counter-productive and frankly a waste of time.

 

It is only when we discuss things with an open mind that we do indeed allow ourselves the gift of learning.

 

In this forum, that rarely happens.

 

I understand where you are coming from. And I have been as guilty. Even when faced with an answer that proves me wrong, I have been guilty of trying to "save face." I have decided that this is not the way I personally want to discuss these issues anymore and haven't for awhile. But even then, I can say that I have learned much from those who I consider dogmatic atheists...those who will not budge an inch and would never dream of saying that their answer is not the correct one. It has done two things for me...either shown me that I am wrong, or shown me what I needed to learn for my own position.

 

Open discussion can be done even when the most furious defenses are mounted. This discussion happens best when assertions are backed with sources, and here on the internet, there are multitudes of links that are available. At the end if we can remain civil, then we have learned something...even if it is simply how the other side believes.

 

So, while many of these threads do deteriorate into personal attacks at times, many times we do engage in intellectual exercises that produce answers that educate. While some posters seem entrenched and only out to win a debate, others truly do seek to present a different viewpoint for opening the "opponent's" minds to an alternative.

 

This is why I do participate. And this is why I have learned to admit when I am wrong...although that rarely happens.

 

Geishawhelk, your post as always represents the attitude that many of us do seek here. Now if you would just realize that I am right and you are wrong...... Okay, I really am just kidding.

Edited January 10, 2008 by JamesM

[AlleyCat77]

In order to learn, I am sure you will agree, one has to be open to new ideas. I don't think people who have a fundamentalist approach to religion can be receptive to new thoughts/ideas/possibilities. Of course neither can the agnostic/atheist/un-believer if he, too, is driven by a predetermined thesis from which he refuses to budge an inch. That is the reason that I find any form of fanatical belief counter-productive and frankly a waste of time.

 

Faith or faithlessness in god has nothing to do with open mindedness. Some of most educated scientists are theist, and some of the most uneducated atheist. There is no way to prove or disprove god, therefore belief is just a bet. Most people look at the evidence that they themselves have available to them and bet on the answer. The idea of God will always exist in the unknown, and there will always be an unknown. As an agnostic myself, I just see no reason to bet either way.

 

The real "fundimentalist", as you call them, are usually the one's that placed their bets at a very young age. The belief is a part of who they are. That is why several of you have mistaken criticism of your religion as disrespect directed at you.

 

There is a super-Christian that I work with, and I truely believe that if she ever lost her faith, she would kill herself. It is therefore impossible for her to lose her faith.

[Geishawhelk]

Geishawhelk, your post as always represents the attitude that many of us do seek here. Now if you would just realize that I am right and you are wrong...... Okay, I really am just kidding.

 

"The best and most effective way to release yourself from the defilement of attachments is to let go of your opinions"

Lama yeshe Tenzin.

 

You are right James. You are always completely right.

And so is everyone else.

Including me......

[AlleyCat77]

As for the other side, I have always wondered what it would be like to interview someone who had died. While many would laugh and say that they have simply been dead, as you say, we do not know that. So, I would like to interview someone who was in Heaven and one in Hell. How would that change my life?

 

I have interviewed someone that has had out of body experiences. Astral projections. It hasn't changed my life at all because I didn't believe them. I love people, but we are just way too flawed to take everyone's word as truth.

 

Oh, and I met someone that claimed alien abduction too. And my best friend in high school developed schizophrenia at 21. Thought that me and him were one spirit, sent to earth to destroy it. Drew it all out on paper for me! Then he went into the hospital were he met a Christian. Now he is born again, but still sees and hears the demons and angels. It's just real to him.

 

He isn't getting nakend and baptizing himself in public restrooms anymore, but it is funny to here him talk around his new christian friends. They will start talking about supernatural things, and he will join in with his first hand experiences. They usually stop talking after that, like "OMG I am not with this person"