When MP blames A on OP

[White Flower]

these are all things he told you. he very well could still be lying WF... sometimes - many times - i see people who have lied to themselves so much and for so long that they don't even know where their OWN truth is...

 

for me - when i have done this - i needed OTHERS to point out to me what i wasn't seeing (the lie). once i could consider that it MAY not actually be my truth - but just the habit of what i was trained to think - i could begin to discover what MY TRUTH might actually be.

Trust me, I know 2sunny, that is why I stated a couple of times that he could be lying. Also, though, he told me hurtful things because I demanded to know. He could have lied then too to lessen the blow but wants to finally be honest to someone other than his IC.

 

I think his W is catching on to a degree, but I'm fairly confident that her search for perfection is more important than the actual truth.

[White Flower]

Affairs are not a single person activity like driving a car is. It takes two. It's more like cheating on an exam by having someone give you the answers, than it is like driving. If you know the other person will use your answers to cheat, then you'll be disciplined as well. Also, let's assume the participants in an affair are adults.

 

Having said that, I don't think fault or blame are the most relevant terms for the role of an AP. To me, it is a matter of caring about others, valuing openness and honesty, and encouraging those we love to be the best people they can be. Being an AP is not consistent with these.

With all due respect woinlove, it is these very values that pushed me to push MM into making a decision: be all that you can be INCLUDING telling the truth for once in your life.

 

MM is a fine man indeed. He volunteers, served his country in two wars, was a hero on the job all his life, a great father, a great board member in various clubs and the ultimate go-to guy. ONLY problem was, he had a problem lying to women and a secret sex addiction.

 

He dealt with the SA and is so so close to 'doing the right thing'. If he never quite makes it to me, I will always feel proud that I pushed for his IC and for him to live his life in the most honest way.

 

You post BBM is off topic but I wanted to respond. Some BW are a better match for their H and some OW are the better match. He may never end up with the better match but trust me, one will always be better no matter who he lands up with.

 

MM's W does not encourage him to be the best man he can be. She encourages him to sweep it all under the rug so they can go on looking like the perfect couple. I think it is sad if he is grateful of this gesture because it blocks his personal growth, and theirs as a couple.

[2sunny]

Trust me, I know 2sunny, that is why I stated a couple of times that he could be lying. Also, though, he told me hurtful things because I demanded to know. He could have lied then too to lessen the blow but wants to finally be honest to someone other than his IC.

 

I think his W is catching on to a degree, but I'm fairly confident that her search for perfection is more important than the actual truth.

 

 

the goal to "save face" for sake of not being embarrassed or to the image we have created for ourselves and to the outside world is very powerful. to admit that something as important as a failed marriage is extremely difficult - believe me - to keep up the pretenses by lying, covering up and spending tons of energy to present to others the "perfect front = perfect couple = perfect marriage" is exhausting. sometimes we just don't want to let everyone down - so we become willing to just keep the status quo... trying to be as happy as we can one day at a time.

 

when i wasn't willing to look at the truth... even for myself - i couldn't even tell what i really did or didn't believe. was this perfect life really perfect? was my perfect husband really perfect? i thought i had it all. seemed so... until...

 

the reality of all the pretending came tumbling down and revealed itself to me... now - even 5 years later i occasionally wonder how i could have possibly not been capable of seeing all the signs that were there all along. i was blind to so much because i wanted to believe it wasn't true. this is self protection from the pain.

 

the truth was- it was there all along - I wasn't capable of seeing it then - I wasn't capable of processing the reality of what that reality was. as long as I was willing to close my eyes and my mind then life carried on as "normal." this is known as a comfort zone... even if it's not ideal - it is comfortable enough... and familiar. to some the unknown is scary enough to keep them put. NOT ME.

 

i changed it all! once i saw what the reality was - EVERYTHING changed.

 

i can now experience happiness every day - settling for nothing less for MYSELF. MY happiness is not dependent upon whether or not someone i love is or isn't with me - that is a bonus if they are.

 

i choose to be happy now - without the pretending i used to know so well that hurt so many. the pretending hurts everyone it touches.

[Silly_Girl]

You post BBM is off topic but I wanted to respond. Some BW are a better match for their H and some OW are the better match. He may never end up with the better match but trust me, one will always be better no matter who he lands up with.

 

MM's W does not encourage him to be the best man he can be. She encourages him to sweep it all under the rug so they can go on looking like the perfect couple. I think it is sad if he is grateful of this gesture because it blocks his personal growth, and theirs as a couple.

 

I feel I can really relate to these paras WF. it's nice to feel that someone else's truth is similar to your own, if you see what I mean.

[woinlove]

With all due respect woinlove, it is these very values that pushed me to push MM into making a decision: be all that you can be INCLUDING telling the truth for once in your life.

 

MM is a fine man indeed. He volunteers, served his country in two wars, was a hero on the job all his life, a great father, a great board member in various clubs and the ultimate go-to guy. ONLY problem was, he had a problem lying to women and a secret sex addiction.

 

He dealt with the SA and is so so close to 'doing the right thing'. If he never quite makes it to me, I will always feel proud that I pushed for his IC and for him to live his life in the most honest way.

 

I agree that pushing him to deal with his problems and to live more honestly is something to be proud of.

 

We may differ on our views of being an AP, but I agree with you that these actions (whether taken by an AP, W, relative, friend,...) are a reflection of the values I mentioned.

[White Flower]

[/b]

 

 

the goal to "save face" for sake of not being embarrassed or to the image we have created for ourselves and to the outside world is very powerful. to admit that something as important as a failed marriage is extremely difficult - believe me - to keep up the pretenses by lying, covering up and spending tons of energy to present to others the "perfect front = perfect couple = perfect marriage" is exhausting. sometimes we just don't want to let everyone down - so we become willing to just keep the status quo... trying to be as happy as we can one day at a time.

 

when i wasn't willing to look at the truth... even for myself - i couldn't even tell what i really did or didn't believe. was this perfect life really perfect? was my perfect husband really perfect? i thought i had it all. seemed so... until...

 

the reality of all the pretending came tumbling down and revealed itself to me... now - even 5 years later i occasionally wonder how i could have possibly not been capable of seeing all the signs that were there all along. i was blind to so much because i wanted to believe it wasn't true. this is self protection from the pain.

 

the truth was- it was there all along - I wasn't capable of seeing it then - I wasn't capable of processing the reality of what that reality was. as long as I was willing to close my eyes and my mind then life carried on as "normal." this is known as a comfort zone... even if it's not ideal - it is comfortable enough... and familiar. to some the unknown is scary enough to keep them put. NOT ME.

 

i changed it all! once i saw what the reality was - EVERYTHING changed.

 

i can now experience happiness every day - settling for nothing less for MYSELF. MY happiness is not dependent upon whether or not someone i love is or isn't with me - that is a bonus if they are.

 

i choose to be happy now - without the pretending i used to know so well that hurt so many. the pretending hurts everyone it touches.

I have a great respect for people like you.

 

I did the same thing, left my sorry M that to everyone else seemed perfect. I just couldn't pretend anymore. But you did one better than me, you didn't have a MM to fall back on...I did, even if he wasn't leaving his M, he was there for me in many ways.

 

Even today, as I face the possibility of it being truly over within a month (trying so hard not to make this an update thread:eek:) I look to people like you who broke away from a bad R with nobody to fall back on but yourself.

 

You are truly an inspiration 2sunny.

 

I feel I can really relate to these paras WF. it's nice to feel that someone else's truth is similar to your own, if you see what I mean.

I do. It's nice to be able to relate.

 

I agree that pushing him to deal with his problems and to live more honestly is something to be proud of.

 

We may differ on our views of being an AP, but I agree with you that these actions (whether taken by an AP, W, relative, friend,...) are a reflection of the values I mentioned.

[2sunny]

I agree that pushing him to deal with his problems and to live more honestly is something to be proud of.

 

i have to respectfully disagree. pushing someone else is fruitless. it may even cause them to resent you. this is not normally the outcome that you're looking for. the only one you can push is yourself. push yourself for the change that you want to experience.

 

for WF - her MM has a counselor. that is his counselor's job to do. the counselor gets paid. is he paying you to push... probably not. he may not want to be pushed... this is where resentments can be formed. he may not want to tell you that you push him too hard - or that it makes him feel inadequate or less than... he may need to see things in his own time.

 

if things aren't the way you want them to be - step back. assess what it is you want right now... then go get it. life is too short to waste it waiting around for someone to love us when they might become available.

 

just because you have an agenda - it doesn't make it HIS agenda right now.

 

acceptance is key. it is what it is right now. if you want more - then make sure you get busy getting it... for you.

[jj33]

2Sunny so so right. You cant push someone to leave. WF I love you to bits but God knows you have tried everything in your power to help this man move forward and its something he has to do for himself.

[White Flower]

Too funny ladies and again we've gone off topic.

 

I don't think it's wrong to encourage someone we love to do the right thing whether that be living an honest life, leaving to be with the one you truly love, or washing their hands. He knows what he needs to do to make his life better and I know what I need to do.

 

Thanks.

[Silly_Girl]

Too funny ladies and again we've gone off topic.

 

I don't think it's wrong to encourage someone we love to do the right thing whether that be living an honest life, leaving to be with the one you truly love, or washing their hands. He knows what he needs to do to make his life better and I know what I need to do.

 

Thanks.

 

I agree. It's not being a friend just to stand by when you know someone is unhappy and is in a situation they truly don't want to be in (am thinking of a close pal now). If you love someone (friend, family, lover) it is negligent in my view not to try and help, when there's obviously a level of care, and one wants what is best for THEM (i.e.in the case of WF and I, and MM that includes encouraging marriage counselling and reconciliation techniques in the hopes the one we love will ultimately find HIS happiness). However drawing the line is just as vital. Accepting their decision and respecting it; even though it may hurt us to spectate in that way.

[White Flower]

I agree. It's not being a friend just to stand by when you know someone is unhappy and is in a situation they truly don't want to be in (am thinking of a close pal now). If you love someone (friend, family, lover) it is negligent in my view not to try and help, when there's obviously a level of care, and one wants what is best for THEM (i.e.in the case of WF and I, and MM that includes encouraging marriage counselling and reconciliation techniques in the hopes the one we love will ultimately find HIS happiness). However drawing the line is just as vital. Accepting their decision and respecting it; even though it may hurt us to spectate in that way.

Interesting how this all relates to my OP. How can he blame the OW who actually encourages what is right for him? Isn't honesty and dealing with his demons the right thing to do no matter who he lands up with?

 

If I love him, and encourage him to be the best he can be even in the face of losing him possibly, I feel I have done my best for me and him as well.

[Hazyhead]

Interesting how this all relates to my OP. How can he blame the OW who actually encourages what is right for him? Isn't honesty and dealing with his demons the right thing to do no matter who he lands up with?

 

If I love him, and encourage him to be the best he can be even in the face of losing him possibly, I feel I have done my best for me and him as well.

 

 

WF, it's easier for him to blame the OW than himself. That way, far less work is required by him to right it... right? Move away from the problem and things will get better? Except it doesn't work. Back to burying heads in sand.

 

Their situation sounds suffocating.

[White Flower]

WF, it's easier for him to blame the OW than himself. That way, far less work is required by him to right it... right? Move away from the problem and things will get better? Except it doesn't work. Back to burying heads in sand.

 

Their situation sounds suffocating.

In his words? It sucks and it's driving him crazy.

 

Yes, it is easier to blame the OW then to take it on himself. Doesn't sound the knight in shining armor to me.

[Hazyhead]

In his words? It sucks and it's driving him crazy.

 

Yes, it is easier to blame the OW then to take it on himself. Doesn't sound the knight in shining armor to me.

 

 

No, it doesn't WF, if they truly are the perfect altruistic KISA. But, for a lot of them there is a certain image they wish to uphold, and it's not of one who hurts those he's supposed to care for. Which is more important do you think, the appearance of being the ideal KISA or the action he takes on behalf of others. I truly hope that your MM proves his worth to you hon.

 

I really don't mean to be critical (little jaded today so that may come off) I just wonder about how deep and genuine this trait is in them.

[2sunny]

WF, it's easier for him to blame the OW than himself. That way, far less work is required by him to right it... right? Move away from the problem and things will get better? Except it doesn't work. Back to burying heads in sand.

 

Their situation sounds suffocating.

 

and this answers the original question... the MP can blame the OW (the MM too) THEN they done have to point the finger at themselves.

 

the role the OW plays is a significant one. she becomes the one to blame everything on - so that the MM doesn't have to blame himself. thus, it's easier for him to keep you in the picture because then he doesn't HAVE to look at himself while he has you to blame.

 

IF the OW steps away from the situation - it becomes more painful for the MM because he has no one to blame but himself - thus, the reason why he constantly tries to get his OW back in his life = he has someone to shift HIS blame to. he specifically doesn't want it to be him = THAT is too painful when he has a perfect image of himself... and is willing to try to maintain that image at any cost. saving face is always key.

[White Flower]

No, it doesn't WF, if they truly are the perfect altruistic KISA. But, for a lot of them there is a certain image they wish to uphold, and it's not of one who hurts those he's supposed to care for. Which is more important do you think, the appearance of being the ideal KISA or the action he takes on behalf of others. I truly hope that your MM proves his worth to you hon.

 

I really don't mean to be critical (little jaded today so that may come off) I just wonder about how deep and genuine this trait is in them.

I'm trying not to be critical myself. Gong through a very difficult time right now and it's hard to focus on anything. LS seems to be the only place I can focus!

 

There is a serious situation going on at MM's camp right now. He is playing the only role he's ever known how to play, his KISA role. I know he is genuinely helpful, genuinely the good guy, but first and foremost he is doing it for himself above any other. I happen to know he suffers serious guilt issues and being the KISA deflects the guilt and makes him feel better about himself. Gaining approval from others is central to his well-being. (Too bad he couldn't get approval from himself to live his life the way he wants it.)

 

Further, he hurt his W earlier this year (D-day) and I'm sure he's using this time to 'make up for it'. Family from out of town are eyewitnesses to these acts of kindness, dilligence, and protective actions that are reasonable and customary during such times. I am not calling him, emailing him, nor pestering him in any way. I have all but disappeared out of respect during a very difficult time...

 

even though I could use his love right now. I could use his strength. But he is proving his loyalty over there. And after all is said and done, and they have a chance to talk about their M again, I'm sure I will take some sort of blame.

[White Flower]

and this answers the original question... the MP can blame the OW (the MM too) THEN they done have to point the finger at themselves.

 

the role the OW plays is a significant one. she becomes the one to blame everything on - so that the MM doesn't have to blame himself. thus, it's easier for him to keep you in the picture because then he doesn't HAVE to look at himself while he has you to blame.

 

IF the OW steps away from the situation - it becomes more painful for the MM because he has no one to blame but himself - thus, the reason why he constantly tries to get his OW back in his life = he has someone to shift HIS blame to. he specifically doesn't want it to be him = THAT is too painful when he has a perfect image of himself... and is willing to try to maintain that image at any cost. saving face is always key.

Very interesting statement 2sunny. I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

I'm pretty sure he tries to get her back because he loves her and needs her but perhaps there is a tiny bit of truth to the idea of having a scapegoat? I mean, if caught again he can always say she lured him back in.

[2sunny]

I'm trying not to be critical myself. Gong through a very difficult time right now and it's hard to focus on anything. LS seems to be the only place I can focus!

 

There is a serious situation going on at MM's camp right now. He is playing the only role he's ever known how to play, his KISA role. I know he is genuinely helpful, genuinely the good guy, but first and foremost he is doing it for himself above any other. I happen to know he suffers serious guilt issues and being the KISA deflects the guilt and makes him feel better about himself. Gaining approval from others is central to his well-being. (Too bad he couldn't get approval from himself to live his life the way he wants it.)

 

Further, he hurt his W earlier this year (D-day) and I'm sure he's using this time to 'make up for it'. Family from out of town are eyewitnesses to these acts of kindness, dilligence, and protective actions that are reasonable and customary during such times. I am not calling him, emailing him, nor pestering him in any way. I have all but disappeared out of respect during a very difficult time...

 

even though I could use his love right now. I could use his strength. But he is proving his loyalty over there. And after all is said and done, and they have a chance to talk about their M again, I'm sure I will take some sort of blame.

 

so he plays the role of least resistance that makes him "look" his best. he does seem to have his "image" as a priority. i don't see how even a great gal like you WF, can compete with the image he has of himself... he may never want to give up that pretending role he plays. it works for him. it gives him the peace of mind that he craves. he IS living the life that he chooses for himself.

 

and you take the blame? why? that is his and his alone.

 

IF you were to go quietly away... HE may only have himself to blame. imagine that.

 

i think he has blamed you for a long time - whether or not he admits it to himself or not - this coping mechanism works well for a man like him - as long as he keeps you around.

 

maybe if you weren't around he might actually start realizing he has no one to blame for his unhappiness but himself. he may actually start to blame his wife more at this point. then and only then - might he start to seriously take action to change things... but he's never going to be motivated to do so as long as he can shift that blame to someone else. that way it's not his fault at all.

 

his image is a driving force - the amount of effort he spends maintaining his image with others says everything he can't tell you. he's selfish - too worried about what others may think of him - and is willing to sacrifice self to save face.

[2sunny]

 

even though I could use his love right now. I could use his strength. But he is proving his loyalty over there. And after all is said and done, and they have a chance to talk about their M again, I'm sure I will take some sort of blame.

 

i want more for you than this WF. he is never going to be available the way a man should be if you are his top priority.

 

what about you? even IF you aren't with him - at least you understand that there's no man in your life - that way you don't constantly feel disappointed that he let you down. to hope that he will be supportive in your time of need is just setting yourself up for the fact that he is unavailable to YOU.

 

these circumstances happen for a reason - they allow us to understand that life isn't what we think it is... the reality of facing the facts and acting upon them is the hard part.

 

is having a man that is only available to you on HIS TERMS enough? what about you?

[White Flower]

so he plays the role of least resistance that makes him "look" his best. he does seem to have his "image" as a priority. i don't see how even a great gal like you WF, can compete with the image he has of himself... he may never want to give up that pretending role he plays. it works for him. it gives him the peace of mind that he craves. he IS living the life that he chooses for himself.

 

and you take the blame? why? that is his and his alone.

 

IF you were to go quietly away... HE may only have himself to blame. imagine that.

 

i think he has blamed you for a long time - whether or not he admits it to himself or not - this coping mechanism works well for a man like him - as long as he keeps you around.

 

maybe if you weren't around he might actually start realizing he has no one to blame for his unhappiness but himself. he may actually start to blame his wife more at this point. then and only then - might he start to seriously take action to change things... but he's never going to be motivated to do so as long as he can shift that blame to someone else. that way it's not his fault at all.

 

his image is a driving force - the amount of effort he spends maintaining his image with others says everything he can't tell you. he's selfish - too worried about what others may think of him - and is willing to sacrifice self to save face.

 

i want more for you than this WF. he is never going to be available the way a man should be if you are his top priority.

 

what about you? even IF you aren't with him - at least you understand that there's no man in your life - that way you don't constantly feel disappointed that he let you down. to hope that he will be supportive in your time of need is just setting yourself up for the fact that he is unavailable to YOU.

 

these circumstances happen for a reason - they allow us to understand that life isn't what we think it is... the reality of facing the facts and acting upon them is the hard part.

 

is having a man that is only available to you on HIS TERMS enough? what about you?

The part BBM is quite interesting and something I've considered all along. Even if we met as single people this would probably be my main concern. I don't need the spotlight by any means, but being with him would certainly mean being in the spotlight with him or in the shadow of his spotlight. It takes a strong woman to deal with that and for that I give kudos to his W. Sometimes I think they compete for the spotlight whereas I simply don't need it.

 

I didn't mean to say I would take the blame; only that they would find a way to blame me.

 

Yes, these circumstances do indeed happen for a reason. I expected them, and that is why I suggested the timing when I did. Now it seems it is too late. I didn't want to make this thread an update thread but now it's come out. I was trying my best to hang in there for the October date he set almost a year ago but it just seems futile at this point. He really could pull this off if he wanted to, but I fear his KISA syndrome is far peskier than his motivation to overcome it.

 

Anybody care to get back on topic? LOL.

[2sunny]

I didn't mean to say I would take the blame; only that they would find a way to blame me.

 

getting back on topic...

 

neither one of them can "blame you" if you simply disappeared. how do you blame someone who is not there? it's not possible. so simply "disappear".

 

that helps you and them. then they only have themselves to blame.

[White Flower]

getting back on topic...

 

neither one of them can "blame you" if you simply disappeared. how do you blame someone who is not there? it's not possible. so simply "disappear".

 

that helps you and them. then they only have themselves to blame.

It's a nice idea, but I don't think my disappearing act will cause MM's W to stop blaming me. She'll never really blame him and she has already told him that she refuses any blame at all whatsoever.

 

I will disappear, don't worry about that. But I don't think it will cause her to stop blaming. As for him, MM insists he defends me but I'm not so sure a woman like her would stand for it for too long.

[2sunny]

It's a nice idea, but I don't think my disappearing act will cause MM's W to stop blaming me. She'll never really blame him and she has already told him that she refuses any blame at all whatsoever.

 

I will disappear, don't worry about that. But I don't think it will cause her to stop blaming. As for him, MM insists he defends me but I'm not so sure a woman like her would stand for it for too long.

 

denial - you can't do a thing about the way denial works for the best interest of their marriage.

[herenow]

getting back on topic...

 

neither one of them can "blame you" if you simply disappeared. how do you blame someone who is not there? it's not possible. so simply "disappear".

 

that helps you and them. then they only have themselves to blame.

 

I only read the first post and this. I agree with this. If a MM blames the OW, then I would think the OW would be done with the MM in every way. So, who cares? Move on and leave it behind you, How the MM and his BW deal with their situation is not an OW's concern.

 

As a BW, I wouldn't have allowed my H to blame his actions on anyone but himself. He took complete responsibility for what he did. My issues were with him as the OW wasn't a part of my life.

 

If a MM and BW want to blame the OW, then that is their choice. However, I can't see how focusing on the OW is helpful to any reconciliation.

 

In any case, why would an OW care about what is being said by a MM who is trying everything possible to get his BW to forgive him?

[someday]

The way I see it is that the OW has the ability to decide to become involved with the MM. Her choice to become involved is her responsibility. She should have the balls to stand up to the heat that comes her way due to her actions.

 

That in no way lets the MM off the hook. He has the ability and choice to become involved in an affair and will need to face the fallout of his actions.

 

If the W chooses to misdirect her anger at the OW and basically allow her H to slide…well, when her H keeps cheating or the M never gets healthy, that’s her problem.

 

See, we all have choices.