When MP blames A on OP

[herenow]

Uh yeah, and the MM and BS are likely to be discussing the same thing...

 

If my H was still talking to the OW when we got back together, the only things we would be discussing would be how quickly he could sign the divorce papers and how to best deal with the kids.

[silktricks]

If my H was still talking to the OW when we got back together, the only things we would be discussing would be how quickly he could sign the divorce papers and how to best deal with the kids.

 

That I can understand - ours was a little different . Since he told me about it we had MANY discussions about how to handle him telling her it was over, what their conversations were, what she said, what he said, how she reacted, how she acted.... He was afraid that she'd do something crazy - and though I didn't believe it at the time, the next few years proved him right.

[herenow]

That I can understand - ours was a little different . Since he told me about it we had MANY discussions about how to handle him telling her it was over, what their conversations were, what she said, what he said, how she reacted, how she acted.... He was afraid that she'd do something crazy - and though I didn't believe it at the time, the next few years proved him right.

 

Oh we had many of the same conversations. We even had our therapist help us deal with her at one point.

 

I was saying that if he was taking to her about us and our marriage when we were back together, it would have been over.

[2sunny]

i don't find much value in comparisons. seems pointless and a waste of energy.

 

if the marriage is A and the affair is B - there is no value in comparing the A and the B... they are essentially separate - while being intertwined on a separate degree.

[ladydesigner]

OK - now we're back to blame. I hate that word...

 

No wife is going to truly accept that an affair is all the OW's fault. She may let it go, but she knows that (to be gross), the OW didn't take it and stick it in herself....

 

There is a difference between apportioning "blame" and diminishing the importance of the OW to the wife.

 

For a MM to say "I didn't do it, it was all her fault" is pretty cheesy and stupid. Very very few BS are going to accept something like that.

 

However, for a MM to say, "She really didn't mean anything to me" or "I made a terrible mistake", or "She's nothing compared to you" or things along that line... that is diminishing the value of the OW. That may or may not be acceptable to the fBS. It depends on the woman, the situation, a lot of things - and here's the rub - it may or may not be true.

 

In the "heat of the affair" the MM may believe the OW means everything, is his soul mate, or whatever. After he's been walloped in the face by the reality of discovery he/she may realize that the OW/OM really wasn't "all that". He may be telling the truth when he is minimizing the affair. He may not. The OW wants to believe he is not telling the truth, the BS wants to believe he is. Only the MM knows for sure - and during the crazy days after a D-Day, he may not even know.

 

This statement is so true to me now and was pre-A as well. My XOM was a co-worker, I didn't know his name for the first 3 months. He never ever struck me as attractive. We started to get to know one another and got along great as friends that first year. He always made off handed comments to me sometimes sexual in nature (it's a good thing I didn't get him on sexual harassment). Then boom my H had an A and then more instances of proving to be unfaithful. Well I started confiding in my XOM the miseries of my M hence the slippery slope I fell down.

 

While I know not to blame my XAP, as we are all accountable for our own actions, I do blame him for making the first move. He knew I was unhappy and knew that I was married. He still asked if he could kiss me one fine day. In my vulnerable state of sadness and anger I obliged. He was a fabulous kisser and I was already deep in an emotional relationship with him as far as misery goes so well you know how the story goes. While I blame myself the most for allowing the A to happen, I do place some blame on him for taking advantage of the state of mind I was in.

 

I found out later that he had had a crush on me the entire time I worked with him.

 

I now cannot see what I ever could have seen in him.

[silktricks]

While I know not to blame my XAP, as we are all accountable for our own actions, I do blame him for making the first move. He knew I was unhappy and knew that I was married.

I actually think this is the reason many MP "blame" the OW/OM. It's not that they aren't fully aware of the fact that they could have said no (and didn't) but that the OP made the first move, while knowing they were married. .

 

{snip}

 

I now cannot see what I ever could have seen in him.

Isn't it odd how we can look back on things we have done or people we have loved and go "what was I thinking???" :lmao:

[ladydesigner]

I actually think this is the reason many MP "blame" the OW/OM. It's not that they aren't fully aware of the fact that they could have said no (and didn't) but that the OP made the first move, while knowing they were married. .

 

{snip}

 

Isn't it odd how we can look back on things we have done or people we have loved and go "what was I thinking???" :lmao:

 

Yes it is quite surreal at times and just downright embarrassing, unfortunately.

[BB07]

However, for a MM to say, "She really didn't mean anything to me" or "I made a terrible mistake", or "She's nothing compared to you" or things along that line... that is diminishing the value of the OW. That may or may not be acceptable to the fBS. It depends on the woman, the situation, a lot of things - and here's the rub - it may or may not be true.

 

In the "heat of the affair" the MM may believe the OW means everything, is his soul mate, or whatever. After he's been walloped in the face by the reality of discovery he/she may realize that the OW/OM really wasn't "all that". He may be telling the truth when he is minimizing the affair. He may not. The OW wants to believe he is not telling the truth, the BS wants to believe he is. Only the MM knows for sure - and during the crazy days after a D-Day, he may not even know.

 

 

I would think that silktricks explanation of what happens is probably the most accurate of anything that has been said in this thread.

[pureinheart]

I don't think you realize how much time at least I and my MM spend discussing this. It is impossible for him to put up a facade during all those hours. It would not be consistent.

 

With the direct communication, this is a fact, ESPECIALLY if you pay attention to detail, and with skype...

 

I could tell over the phone with my last ex that things were going south, and we only spoke a couple of times a day. During that R I fine tuned the ability to "read" voice changes and attitudes through vocal means...vocal body language.

[White Flower]

That's just it. Why does it matter what the man says to his W? Who cares if they like to keep up appearances? None of us are part of that couple.

 

 

The tone of this thread is just that if the MM blames the OW for the A, then somehow the W is weak or gullible and I don't know how one can make such a leap. Based on a few words typed in a forum? Stereotypes abound, and this seems to feed into yet another stereotype typical of OW/OM forums: the gullible betrayed spouse.

I'm not here to feed into any stereotypes. I'm here to discuss issues that don't usually get discussed in the general public. I pose the question because I truly want all aspects of the answer. I think my motivation is clear.

 

And I don't care about 'that couple'. I care about the subject in general. I'm sure a little part of you enjoys the discussion since you're posting on this thread.

[White Flower]

OK, well I believe this thread is about what the MM tells the wife after d-day and he has decide to not leave. Am I wrong?

 

If the OW was ever the priority, why would he tell his BW it was her (the OW) fault?

Question #1: Not necessarily. It's when the MM blames the OP ever, and not just when he's decided to stay home.

 

Question #2: We don't know the W is the priority. It may be MM and his comfort zone that is the priority.

 

At the expense of the OW who he supposedly loves?

He may be buying time. Then again, he may love himself more than he loves anyone.

 

But the only one who TRULY knows that is the MP. Maybe he/she doesn't leave because they really are just someone who wants variety and was willing to risk a M over it.

I no longer accept the variety issue. There is a reason for variety but it isn't variety itself usually; they are looking for something deeper such as true intimacy and when they find it they are able to stop with the variety trend.

 

OK. Back to the original posting, and the purpose of this thread.

 

I'm getting confused. I thought this was about what the MM tells his wife after D-Day, when he is actually trying to rebuild the marriage. This thread seems now to be talking about what he tells his wife when he is patently NOT trying to rebuild the marriage, but instead pacify her and continue the affair.

 

Those are really different things IMO.

Remeber that there are often more than one D-day which is then indicative of a longer future of the A. With each D-day there is a momentum and a new way to resume the A. A D-day in itself is not indicative of a M rebuilding. In either case he may or may not blame the OP. And even if he truly wants to rebuild, I question his reasons for blaming the OP and I question the state of the future M. Can it be healthy to avoid the guilt of the A yourself (as the WS) and can it be healthy for the BS to accept that the OP lured her spouse away?

 

In the former (trying to rebuild the marriage), one would assume that there is NC between the MM and OW. In that case, the opinion I stated still stands - I do not understand why the OW would care what was being said between the husband and wife. She should (IMO) be concerned with her life, and her happiness and moving forward.

In this case I agree with you. If it is over it is over, why care who says what?

 

In the latter (trying to pacify the wife so the affair can continue) - in that instance I can understand why the OW would be interested/concerned about what is being said. In that circumstance, if I (personally) were an OW in love with a MM and he was trying to pacify his wife so the affair could continue, and telling her that I meant nothing, while telling me I meant everything - that would not be a tolerable situation for me.

And a paradox for sure!

 

Why save the marriage if he loves the OW? It would seem a perfect time to leave. Certainly the easiest time to leave. Why go through all the abuse that us BW's supposedly put our H's through when he can just leave?

 

If a BW so pissed that she is going to "turn the kids against him", or take all the money, she is going to do it after a d-day anyway. Staying is much more work and effort than leaving. Unless, of course, he wants to stay.

 

In my experience, my "knee jerk reactions" are when I'm most true to myself.

Not certain at all. It all depends on the state of the MPs mind, circumstances, issues not yet dealt with, etc. Sometimes it is the worst time to leave, before the real work has been done in his mind, in IC, and so on.

 

Staying can be a lot of work, but as a divorced woman I can say that leaving is very difficult. Staying M would have been easier, albeit unhappier.

While I know not to blame my XAP, as we are all accountable for our own actions, I do blame him for making the first move. He knew I was unhappy and knew that I was married. He still asked if he could kiss me one fine day. In my vulnerable state of sadness and anger I obliged. He was a fabulous kisser and I was already deep in an emotional relationship with him as far as misery goes so well you know how the story goes. While I blame myself the most for allowing the A to happen, I do place some blame on him for taking advantage of the state of mind I was in.

I feel the same way. I could blame MM for the heavy pursuing for a year and a half but it was my choice to succumb and I have to own that.

[jennie-jennie]

Same could be said for any OW. You will never know. The only person who knows exactly what is going on is the MM and it behooves him to say what he needs to say in order to keep both women believing what he wants them to believe.

 

A MM who can hide an affair from his wife can certainly hide whatever he wants from his OW, IMO.

 

If you see that the MM is totally focused on you, to the verge of obsession, it is a pretty safe bet that it is true when he says the wife is getting naught.

[OWoman]

I'd say that I'd have to change the comment from "Whether or not he manages to leave..." to "chooses to leave".

 

He can "manage" to leave whenever he wants to. The bottom line is that he chooses not to leave at this point...you're right, he may choose to leave at a later date. Or....he may not.

 

It's all about what he CHOOSES to do...

 

I'm assuming from this, Owl, that you've never been depressed. Or afraid. Or just plain overwhelmed and confused. That you've never had that moment as a kid of being expected to join in the teasing of the geeky kid, knowing you shouldn't and feeling you don't want to, but knowing that if you don't, tomorrow they will all be teasing you... Never really really liked someone, and been under pressure to have sex with them to show that you really really like them, but felt not ready or not right or uncomfortable about it... Never faced a depressed parent who was feeling that their whole life had been a failure, wanting to tell them somehow that it was OK but frozen by your own anger in your heart at all their parenting mistakes and the toll it had taken on you...

 

If you have never been paralysed by very deep conflict or fear or powerlessness, and have always no matter what the situation and what (your fears or distorted perceptions of) the personal risks to yourself still managed to act swiftly and decisively and without regret fully authentically and in keeping with your morals and values - well done, Owl! You're a better man than most, and a far better person than me! I've known those paralysing moments all too well, have lived with the grip of inertia and fear and mounting depression around my throat, preventing me from taking the action that my logical mind told me I should... sometimes not managing to at all, other times managing to only a long way down the line, after countless false-starts and failures and the surging self-hatred for my own weakness and inability to act at the time. I've lived that, I know how it feels, and I've seen how it looks on the outside. And I've had many conversations with many close friends who've lived through the same, and yes, some have been MMs struggling to leave, knowing it was "right" and what they wanted to do... but unable to, afraid to drive a stake into the heart of the woman they M who still believed his heart belonged to her; afraid to show her family, his family, their friends, that he had failed at playing grown up and raising a family; confused and conflicted between the lure of love and the demands of duty, as a man and provider; overwhelmed and increasingly incapacitated by the creeping tendrils of depression winding around his ankle as the enormity of his choice, and his inability to act on it, played on his mind...

 

I've seen it. I've lived it. Be grateful you haven't, and try not to reject too quickly those of us who have.

 

Nope. To save his relationship with his wife.

 

It's not like she's going to kill him if he doesn't 'blame the OW'. The only reason he's got to make the OW look bad is to keep his wife from ending the marriage. He's doing damage control to protect the marriage...to keep it from ending..

 

Again, I don't agree. Perhaps, for some, in the very short term, to prevent an ending he is not yet ready for... but at least some of these MM want the M to end, and they want the BW to pull the plug that they're feeling too conflicted (or whatever) to pull themselves... but they want that to happen when they're ready for it. They need to be confident that all their (emotional, logistical, or whatever) ducks are in a row before that happens. They're not happy to leap off into the unknown - if they were, there'd have been no DDay, they'd simply have left long before. DDay happens when the WS is not yet ready to leave (either the A, or the M).

 

And it's very much self-preservation. The MM doesn't know what the BW may or may not do to him. He has awfulised it so much in his own mind he has lost all rational sense of perspective on that scenario - all he knows is that the unthinkable is happening and he wants, somehow, anyhow, to regain some of his lost sense of control.

[jennie-jennie]

Uh yeah, and the MM and BS are likely to be discussing the same thing...

 

Exactly. So why is it then strange that the OW wants to know what is going on? It is a need for both the OW and the BS to understand the situation they are now facing.

[jennie-jennie]

I actually think this is the reason many MP "blame" the OW/OM. It's not that they aren't fully aware of the fact that they could have said no (and didn't) but that the OP made the first move, while knowing they were married.

 

This depends on how you look at it. There is no law against making a move at married people. It is up to the married person to honor their vows.

 

I found out later that he had had a crush on me the entire time I worked with him.

 

Quite understandable then that he made a pass at you.

[jennie-jennie]

Isn't it odd how we can look back on things we have done or people we have loved and go "what was I thinking???" :lmao:

 

While this has happened to me several times in short term relationships or flings, it has never happened to me in a long term relationship. I know what I was thinking at the time, I know what attracted me, and unlike with the short term relationships, I knew my partner well enough to know his true characteristics and love him for them.

[OWoman]

Isn't it odd how we can look back on things we have done or people we have loved and go "what was I thinking???" :lmao:

 

Sure... but that's very different from blaming the other party.

 

When I look back at my 1st M, I'm surprised at how easily I let the aliens hijack my brain. But I don't blame the substances that impeded my judgment - I acknowledge that I was stupid to make important decisions in a less than sober state.

[jennie-jennie]

Well, maybe these MM really believe that the OW was at fault. It would not be dishonest if he really believed it.

 

True, but it would be not taking responsibility for his own actions.

However, IMO, a BW should focus on her H and his choice to have an affair as opposed to blaming the OW. Even if the MM blames the OW, the BW (in most cases) knows where to place the blame that matters to her.

 

Exactly.

[jennie-jennie]

Many MM put up a consistent facade to their BW's and they live with them. It's call compartmentalizing and many MM are very good at it.

 

But the MM are not exposing this part of their inner selves to their BSs. To open up like this and put on a facade while doing it is impossible in my opinion.

[jennie-jennie]

And that very SAME facade could be utilized against an OW.

 

Dito.

 

You see an OW has access to a part of the MM which the wife has no access to.

Edited August 28, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

DDay happens when the WS is not yet ready to leave (either the A, or the M).

 

This is very important to remember. With this in mind it should not be a surprise that the MM will do anything possible to save the marriage on Dday, even throwing the OW under the bus. It is the BS who has discovered something new, it is the marriage that is in danger, the MM is doing what he can to save this relationship, independent of where he may want to be in the future, because he is not ready to end the marriage on Dday.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm assuming from this, Owl, that you've never been depressed. Or afraid. Or just plain overwhelmed and confused. That you've never had that moment as a kid of being expected to join in the teasing of the geeky kid, knowing you shouldn't and feeling you don't want to, but knowing that if you don't, tomorrow they will all be teasing you... Never really really liked someone, and been under pressure to have sex with them to show that you really really like them, but felt not ready or not right or uncomfortable about it... Never faced a depressed parent who was feeling that their whole life had been a failure, wanting to tell them somehow that it was OK but frozen by your own anger in your heart at all their parenting mistakes and the toll it had taken on you...

 

If you have never been paralysed by very deep conflict or fear or powerlessness, and have always no matter what the situation and what (your fears or distorted perceptions of) the personal risks to yourself still managed to act swiftly and decisively and without regret fully authentically and in keeping with your morals and values - well done, Owl! You're a better man than most, and a far better person than me! I've known those paralysing moments all too well, have lived with the grip of inertia and fear and mounting depression around my throat, preventing me from taking the action that my logical mind told me I should... sometimes not managing to at all, other times managing to only a long way down the line, after countless false-starts and failures and the surging self-hatred for my own weakness and inability to act at the time. I've lived that, I know how it feels, and I've seen how it looks on the outside. And I've had many conversations with many close friends who've lived through the same, and yes, some have been MMs struggling to leave, knowing it was "right" and what they wanted to do... but unable to, afraid to drive a stake into the heart of the woman they M who still believed his heart belonged to her; afraid to show her family, his family, their friends, that he had failed at playing grown up and raising a family; confused and conflicted between the lure of love and the demands of duty, as a man and provider; overwhelmed and increasingly incapacitated by the creeping tendrils of depression winding around his ankle as the enormity of his choice, and his inability to act on it, played on his mind...

 

I've seen it. I've lived it. Be grateful you haven't, and try not to reject too quickly those of us who have.

 

 

 

Again, I don't agree. Perhaps, for some, in the very short term, to prevent an ending he is not yet ready for... but at least some of these MM want the M to end, and they want the BW to pull the plug that they're feeling too conflicted (or whatever) to pull themselves... but they want that to happen when they're ready for it. They need to be confident that all their (emotional, logistical, or whatever) ducks are in a row before that happens. They're not happy to leap off into the unknown - if they were, there'd have been no DDay, they'd simply have left long before. DDay happens when the WS is not yet ready to leave (either the A, or the M).

 

And it's very much self-preservation. The MM doesn't know what the BW may or may not do to him. He has awfulised it so much in his own mind he has lost all rational sense of perspective on that scenario - all he knows is that the unthinkable is happening and he wants, somehow, anyhow, to regain some of his lost sense of control.

 

I love these posts of yours OWoman. Initially it's easy for me to be pro this viewpoint because I strongly feel you often describe MY MM and his obstacle-strewn path to understanding the truth of his predicament.

 

However, I then see others in my life (myself included) who have been in a situation similar to what you describe. I lost perspective in my previous relationship and barely recognise the person I was. I could see NO escape route [i was right because my escape is still continuing and I am being hassled and intimidated and being stitched up for things I did not do] so I 'accepted' my situation and decided the healthiest thing for me was to learn to live with it.

 

It's something I struggle greatly with, the black and White view that X WILL equals Y, the generalisation that anything differing from the poster's prescription must be an extreme exception and thus written off without credence. So I thank you!

[2sunny]

Dito.

 

You see an OW has access to a part of the MM which the wife has no access to.

 

and the wife most likely has access to the husband that the OW doesn't have with her MM.

 

Jennie = very broad brush strokes this morning. i ask, have you recently had a direct and honest conversation with your MM's wife?

[jennie-jennie]

and the wife most likely has access to the husband that the OW doesn't have with her MM.

Yeah, the public him, she is welcome to that part of him.

Jennie = very broad brush strokes this morning. i ask, have you recently had a direct and honest conversation with your MM's wife?

 

No, and neither has my MM.

[2sunny]

i ask, have you recently had a direct and honest conversation with your MM's wife?

 

No, and neither has my MM.

 

then you REALLY know nothing, yet... my best suggestion is to sit down with her and be honest. she may be able to help you understand way more than you think, if you're honest.

 

then, and only then, will you know what you really need to know, and what you have been afraid to know.

 

you owe this to her and to yourself. it will determine what is BEST for YOUR future. it will help her with HER future too. if MM intends to love you - he shouldn't have a problem with this at all... the pretending goes away and all three deal with the reality of what the future may bring - based on honesty, not lies and deception.

 

can you do that, for yourself and the best interest of all involved?