Am I Receiving Partial Truth?

[tomcook]

since you have already made your decision, I wish you all the luck. R if successful can result a better relationship, but it could also make it worst.

I urge you to read more about R and make her read about it too, one thing you should make sure you do NEVER LIE TO YOURSELF, do not hide any emotions be honest with yourself first if you don't see it working do not force it and ive in a lie. I hope she understands what a WW has to go through to if she really wants to R it won't be easy and she needs to know it

 

Thanks a lot qubist, and thanks for all of your support throughout. I have two hopefully simple questions. First, do you have any good read recommendations on R? Second, how do you determine the definitive it's-not-working point in order to throw in the towel?

[RightThere]

TSecond, how do you determine the definitive it's-not-working point in order to throw in the towel?

 

When the fog lifts for you and to recognize the woman that you are actually with.

 

As opposed to the one you thought you knew all these years who still occupies space in your imagination of who she could/should be.

 

And it takes time. I know from my own "fake" reconciliation that it was over a year before I could wrap my head around who my ex actually was, as opposed to the person I had imagined her to be for 10 years.

 

It's at that point you'll know if it's time to throw in the towel.

[sandylee1]

No no, I was not offended at all. Absolutely not. I have actually asked her how she would feel/what she would do, and she would typically say that she doesn't know how to answer that, or doesn't want to. As always, I greatly appreciate your response. It is very thoughtful of you. I apologize if I gave the impression that I was offended by anything you said. Quite to the contrary, I thank you (and everyone regardless of their opinion) for taking your own valuable time to provide such thoughtful responses. I look forward to more of them.

 

Good luck in reconciling with your wife. I have to say you and many other guys here must have a very special kind of love for your wives. You're very forgiving, more than I can ever imagine my H would be if I cheated.....which I wouldn't.

 

Just don't be a doormat and if you do want kids...maybe give it a good 12 to 18 months to see how solid you two are. No need to bring a new life into the world if things are shaky.

 

If your wife is really prepared to do the heavy lifting, then you should request that she seeks online support for infidelity. It can be her private place to post and get advice from others in her situation who won't judge her harshly. If she is really serious, she'll do it. She'll gain help to navigate why she did this.

Surviving.infidelity.com.

 

Women respect strong men and as much as I like to be in control, I do like my H putting his foot down - but I don't tell him this. Be strong and don't take any nonsense. Let it be known that you are not going to tolerate any crap going forward.

 

I don't think anyone should take crap , but I must say..guys don't even have to be all that great looking to get a GF. A great personality takes you a long way and is very attractive. OTOH, women need to put in a lot more effort to get a decent guy. Don't ever think you can't do better.

[tomcook]

Good luck in reconciling with your wife. I have to say you and many other guys here must have a very special kind of love for your wives. You're very forgiving, more than I can ever imagine my H would be if I cheated.....which I wouldn't.

 

Just don't be a doormat and if you do want kids...maybe give it a good 12 to 18 months to see how solid you two are. No need to bring a new life into the world if things are shaky.

 

If your wife is really prepared to do the heavy lifting, then you should request that she seeks online support for infidelity. It can be her private place to post and get advice from others in her situation who won't judge her harshly. If she is really serious, she'll do it. She'll gain help to navigate why she did this.

Surviving.infidelity.com.

 

Women respect strong men and as much as I like to be in control, I do like my H putting his foot down - but I don't tell him this. Be strong and don't take any nonsense. Let it be known that you are not going to tolerate any crap going forward.

 

I don't think anyone should take crap , but I must say..guys don't even have to be all that great looking to get a GF. A great personality takes you a long way and is very attractive. OTOH, women need to put in a lot more effort to get a decent guy. Don't ever think you can't do better.

 

I have to say sandylee1, you're kindave awesome. I will let her know about the online support group, and I will put my foot down from this day forward, and I certainly won't take crap. She just better not play the "you're mean to me" card when it is really me just not tolerating nonsense, but I am wise enough to know the difference so I will stand my ground. No more unnecessary apologies for this and for that, and more bending over backwards. Equal partnership from here on out or if it comes to it, I shall walk and find someone else. It's really motivating to hear that yes I can do better if she fails me, especially coming from a woman. I know you don't know me or anything, but it definitely makes me feel stronger in all of this. Thanks again sandylee1. I will keep you and everyone updated in the coming days, weeks, months, whether successful or not. You all are great! Oh, and NO KIDS.

[tomcook]

When the fog lifts for you and to recognize the woman that you are actually with.

 

As opposed to the one you thought you knew all these years who still occupies space in your imagination of who she could/should be.

 

And it takes time. I know from my own "fake" reconciliation that it was over a year before I could wrap my head around who my ex actually was, as opposed to the person I had imagined her to be for 10 years.

 

It's at that point you'll know if it's time to throw in the towel.

 

Thanks RightThere. I think you're right. I guess that's why I'm somewhat glad that I made the ultimatum of if things don't change, I will leave. If she truly wants me, and truly wants to put in the effort, it will be continuous, granted a minor slip-up here and there (Not infidelity slip-ups obviously). If I see her slyly trying to slip back into her old, negative ways, then I am just going to assume that is the fog being lifted exposing the real person I married, which I hope is not the case obviously, but that will be my cue for me to throw in the towel.

[TX-SC]

I'll also second the notion that she should visit the Wayward Spouse forum at Survivinginfidelity.com. She will get the guidance and support she needs from other WSs without the feeling of being ganged up on.

 

Tom, it's going to be almost impossible to move forward with R unless you know the complete truth. She needs to tell you anything and everything and stop lying to save herself or your feelings. You need to let her know that it's the lying that will destroy your marriage. You can handle the truth, hell, you already have a 90% suspicion of what happened. But, her continuing to lie only shows you that she is untrustworthy.

 

No marriage can truly last if there is no trust. She has to come forward with that, or all hope is lost.

[tomcook]

I'll also second the notion that she should visit the Wayward Spouse forum at Survivinginfidelity.com. She will get the guidance and support she needs from other WSs without the feeling of being ganged up on.

 

Tom, it's going to be almost impossible to move forward with R unless you know the complete truth. She needs to tell you anything and everything and stop lying to save herself or your feelings. You need to let her know that it's the lying that will destroy your marriage. You can handle the truth, hell, you already have a 90% suspicion of what happened. But, her continuing to lie only shows you that she is untrustworthy.

 

No marriage can truly last if there is no trust. She has to come forward with that, or all hope is lost.

 

TX-SC, I know a lot of individuals have understandably have different opinions on that topic. However, your opinion aligns directly with mine. The continued deception only makes you resent and distrust your spouse that much more. Good advice though. I need to explicitly tell her that continued cover-ups and deception will be the very thing that destroys our marriage. If you honestly wish to be with me, and get us on the right track, you have to come clean. I'll give her mercy. It'll be hard but I will stick to my word if she simply sticks to hers and comes clean. Thanks for your post TX-SC. Considering you and sandylee both mentioned survivinginfidelity.com, I will definitely recommend it to her. I already recommended she joined one, but I was also concerned of the bashing, so this will be a great alternative.

[tomcook]

I have to say to everyone, I do not know how I survived all of this crap for this many months without you all. Each and every one of you is great for providing your input, whether positive, insulting, negative, uplifting, etc. All of it has been amazingly therapeutic to me. Do I get riled up? Sure I do, but at least I'm getting riled up for my own right to be happy. I know I've said it a million times, but thanks again everyone. You all are much more soothing than counselors.

[qubist]

do you have any good read recommendations on R?

sure there are a lot articles about R I'm not sure if the moderators here allow us to share links from other sites, i will have to PM you, may be others here can help. you can also google them.

how do you determine the definitive it's-not-working point in order to throw in the towel?

first I like the fact that you are keeping all the options open including a possible termination of your relationship if things doesn't work. R has a define path and it takes 2 to succeed. both of you will have to put the effort that's why it is important that she knows what's expected from her, show her the thread about "what every WW should know" preferably from a different site so she wouldn't see what you are posting here or print it out for her to read. put a plan that both of you agree on and follow it.

the answer to your question is simple if one of you is not following the R plan that's a clear sign that R is not working, for example if the plan includes ( and should include) her giving you access to all her password and emails then if you find out that she has another email you should stop R and move out

[tomcook]

sure there are a lot articles about R I'm not sure if the moderators here allow us to share links from other sites, i will have to PM you, may be others here can help. you can also google them.

 

first I like the fact that you are keeping all the options open including a possible termination of your relationship if things doesn't work. R has a define path and it takes 2 to succeed. both of you will have to put the effort that's why it is important that she knows what's expected from her, show her the thread about "what every WW should know" preferably from a different site so she wouldn't see what you are posting here or print it out for her to read. put a plan that both of you agree on and follow it.

the answer to your question is simple if one of you is not following the R plan that's a clear sign that R is not working, for example if the plan includes ( and should include) her giving you access to all her password and emails then if you find out that she has another email you should stop R and move out

 

I like that. Very straight cut and to the point. She violates the agreement. I move out. No tolerance. No discussing it. I like that a lot. That's how things should work definitely. I'll go ahead an look up some on Google, and thanks for the PM offer by the way. Also, thank you for reminding me not to send her directly here. That could have been counterproductive, haha. I'll put in a word document and email it to her. I'll try to finalize the R agreement on paper tonight, and keep you updated qubist.

[sandylee1]

I have to say sandylee1, you're kindave awesome. I will let her know about the online support group, and I will put my foot down from this day forward, and I certainly won't take crap. She just better not play the "you're mean to me" card when it is really me just not tolerating nonsense, but I am wise enough to know the difference so I will stand my ground. No more unnecessary apologies for this and for that, and more bending over backwards. Equal partnership from here on out or if it comes to it, I shall walk and find someone else. It's really motivating to hear that yes I can do better if she fails me, especially coming from a woman. I know you don't know me or anything, but it definitely makes me feel stronger in all of this. Thanks again sandylee1. I will keep you and everyone updated in the coming days, weeks, months, whether successful or not. You all are great! Oh, and NO KIDS.

 

Your most welcome and I'm glad to be of help.

 

It comes through your posts that you have a kind heart. You've given her a safe place to come clean with the truth...

Now you really need the truth from her. Decide if you want every last detail.

 

Some people just want to know the number of APs and if they went all the way. I'm not sure the minutia is helpful but that's just my opinion.

 

Ultimately, you want a wife you can trust and it's no less than you deserve.

[qubist]

I like that. Very straight cut and to the point. She violates the agreement. I move out. No tolerance. No discussing it. I like that a lot. That's how things should work definitely. I'll go ahead an look up some on Google, and thanks for the PM offer by the way. Also, thank you for reminding me not to send her directly here. That could have been counterproductive, haha. I'll put in a word document and email it to her. I'll try to finalize the R agreement on paper tonight, and keep you updated qubist.

 

I rooting for you man. remember one thing though, you can be a happy man with or without her, as long as you are honest to yourself and know for sure you are doing it because it's the right thing not because you can't see yourself without her, you will be fine. I'm not telling you this to scare you I just want to make sure you are not doing out of lack of confidence. i said it before but can't emphasis it enough, she needs to understand that it is going to be a hard work to gain your trust back.

good luck

[tomcook]

Your most welcome and I'm glad to be of help.

 

It comes through your posts that you have a kind heart. You've given her a safe place to come clean with the truth...

Now you really need the truth from her. Decide if you want every last detail.

 

Some people just want to know the number of APs and if they went all the way. I'm not sure the minutia is helpful but that's just my opinion.

 

Ultimately, you want a wife you can trust and it's no less than you deserve.

 

Oh, thank you sandylee, I don't know what to say. It means a lot. You seem very kindhearted yourself. You know, a lot of times I do want the minutia (moaning, hickeys, other delicate stuff, etc) but it is probably in my best interest to avoid that or tread carefully. I supposed just knowing if they went all the way will be good enough for me, for now at least.

[tomcook]

I rooting for you man. remember one thing though, you can be a happy man with or without her, as long as you are honest to yourself and know for sure you are doing it because it's the right thing not because you can't see yourself without her, you will be fine. I'm not telling you this to scare you I just want to make sure you are not doing out of lack of confidence. i said it before but can't emphasis it enough, she needs to understand that it is going to be a hard work to gain your trust back.

good luck

 

Thanks a lot buddy. If I may be honest, I do second guess myself sometimes, as in if I'm doing it for the not being able to see myself without her, etc part. However, I do feel that it would be a good step to at least attempt for now, because who knows, maybe it will be one of those marriages that is even stronger after infidelity. I can only hope for the best. I will remember that first line you wrote though, always. I'm taking that to heart. I can and deserve to be happy whether it is with her or without her. I'll repeat it to myself 3000 times a day in the mirror if I have to, haha. Thanks again buddy.

[sidney2718]

Tom: I know you've decided to reconcile. I am not trying to sabotage that. But there is a giant elephant in the room. It is the three guys. OK, you say really only two guys so I'll go with that.

 

Look at it this way. You are writing a script for a movie. The female lead is in a private spot with a normal guy who is clearly trying to "make time" with her. There is a scene in which the female lead somehow gets to the position where the guy has his hand in her pants. She doesn't object. And yet she does nothing sexual for him, even though it would be easy for her to do so without vaginal sex. How does this happen? Try to imagine it.

 

Can you do that?

 

Possibly you can.

 

But the script has to go on. It is the next night and the female lead is now with another normal guy who has her pants off and is playing around with her "lady bits". Again, she does nothing sexual for him either.

 

How does this happen, especially after the previous night?

 

Can you write out the dialog for this?

 

Note that it can't be anything really silly such as her saying "I love the way you touch me, but you do understand that I'm going to send you home with blue balls because I'm not going to do anything for you at all."

 

Do you begin to see what we are all talking about? You've already promised to forgive her if the truth hurts. She's not done it because she KNOWS how much it will hurt you.

 

Sorry for being so rough with you. But I think that you have to get this cleared up before you invest another year of your life in this situation.

[tomcook]

Tom: I know you've decided to reconcile. I am not trying to sabotage that. But there is a giant elephant in the room. It is the three guys. OK, you say really only two guys so I'll go with that.

 

Look at it this way. You are writing a script for a movie. The female lead is in a private spot with a normal guy who is clearly trying to "make time" with her. There is a scene in which the female lead somehow gets to the position where the guy has his hand in her pants. She doesn't object. And yet she does nothing sexual for him, even though it would be easy for her to do so without vaginal sex. How does this happen? Try to imagine it.

 

Can you do that?

 

Possibly you can.

 

But the script has to go on. It is the next night and the female lead is now with another normal guy who has her pants off and is playing around with her "lady bits". Again, she does nothing sexual for him either.

 

How does this happen, especially after the previous night?

 

Can you write out the dialog for this?

 

Note that it can't be anything really silly such as her saying "I love the way you touch me, but you do understand that I'm going to send you home with blue balls because I'm not going to do anything for you at all."

 

Do you begin to see what we are all talking about? You've already promised to forgive her if the truth hurts. She's not done it because she KNOWS how much it will hurt you.

 

Sorry for being so rough with you. But I think that you have to get this cleared up before you invest another year of your life in this situation.

 

I hear you loud and clear Sidney. Thanks for your post by the way. That script just wouldn't be entertaining enough, or realistic. Don't worry, you're not really being rough. You're just trying to look at it realistically. Completely understandable. I didn't promise to forgive her, but I told her that she would not face any harsh backlash if she opened up about it. It's the only thing I could do in hopes that she'll tell me. Stupid move, maybe. Do I really want to make it work? Sure. I also want her to admit that she went all the way though, or at least returned a favor. I guess I didn't mention it before, but according to what I've been told by her, each of the four incidents with the three different guys happened in cars (2 of them after work and 2 of them after class). So no, you were right to say three. It was 3 guys, four incidents. The first guy she only kissed, second guy fingered her, third guy covered the last two incidents, and he also fingered her both times. I get so pissed off just thinking about it. If my damn emotions wouldn't constantly flip-flop, I wouldn't get myself into stupid situations where I am making promises and things. I would think it through before I said stuff. Sometimes I'm depressed, sometimes angry, sometimes both, sometimes hopeful, sometimes sympathetic, empathetic, and on and on, and you know the story. You all do. It's a roller coaster. I totally agree with you though. That has to be cleared up now in these talks with her, otherwise it's a no-go. That is a deal breaker. I would have already scheduled a stupid polygraph if it wasn't so damn expensive. I just feel like maybe if/when I hear the full story, if there truly is more, I can TRULY put the effort in to R, wholeheartedly. Until then though, I will work hard, but I still feel like I'm on a thin line between R and D depending on what happens.

Edited September 3, 2015 by tomcook
Grammar

[oldshirt]

That's all just dumb y'know. Have you ever had a sexual experience where some gal just sat there and fiddled with her phone or gazed out the window and did nothing while you fingered her????????????

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I never have either.

[Popsicle]

This guy is in love with his wife. I have come to realize that when you're in love you can't see things clearly and maybe you don't want to anyway because you're in love, but the pesky jolts of pain keep coming up regarding something ****ty you're beloved did to you, but you have to learn to ignore those twinges. Just let it go and continue being in love.

[tomcook]

This guy is in love with his wife. I have come to realize that when you're in love you can't see things clearly and maybe you don't want to anyway because you're in love, but the pesky jolts of pain keep coming up regarding something ****ty you're beloved did to you, but you have to learn to ignore those twinges. Just let it go and continue being in love.

 

I'm trying Popsicle, but geez it's tough. It's like one minute I'm doing great and ready to R. All I want is just to be on the same page as her, and then the next minute almost entirely hopeless.

[SummerDreams]

Oh Tom, it is so frustrating to watch you from the outside while you are in this fog that doesnt let you see things clearly. You love your wife but mostly you love the habit of loving your wife and having a life with her. This wife you used to know is not here anymore. She has transformed into something ugly. She used to be a princess who you were hugging and kissing but suddenly she became a monster but you dont want to see it and you are still kissing her and we are telling you, hey Tom, you are kissing a freaking monster, and you are saying, what do you mean? It's my wife. But no, she is not your wife anymore. Your wife had made promises and vows that she would respect you and honor you and your marriage. And in the contrary what does she do? She "finds herself" in the car 4 (!!!!) different times with different men letting them touch her the way only her husband should touch her. And what do you do? Wasting your life with trying to extract the truth from her while the only thing you should do would be to gather her things, pack them and send her to her parents while preparing the divorce papers. Remember Tom: The woman you used to know does not exist anymore. You will not bring her back by hiding the obvious under the rug. You will just extend your pain and postpone the inevitable. I dont believe in reconciliation. When you get married the only law you cant break is "do not cheat", plain and simple. If you cant do that then you shouldnt get married at all. She doesnt have the ability to discuss appropriately about what bothers her and solve the problems that occur. I get she is too young and we cant expect her to be overly mature. But she is in a marriage and she has to grow up sooner or later. I am not saying she is a bad person and maybe in say ten years she will be the perfect loyal and loving wife. But are you willing to waste this time in order to wait for her to mature and grow up?

 

Tom Tom, do yourself a favor and try to take your own life in your hands. You seem like a great person and I assure you you will be able to find another woman who will love you and respect you. Hell I'd take you if I were younger and single!

[tomcook]

Oh Tom, it is so frustrating to watch you from the outside while you are in this fog that doesnt let you see things clearly. You love your wife but mostly you love the habit of loving your wife and having a life with her. This wife you used to know is not here anymore. She has transformed into something ugly. She used to be a princess who you were hugging and kissing but suddenly she became a monster but you dont want to see it and you are still kissing her and we are telling you, hey Tom, you are kissing a freaking monster, and you are saying, what do you mean? It's my wife. But no, she is not your wife anymore. Your wife had made promises and vows that she would respect you and honor you and your marriage. And in the contrary what does she do? She "finds herself" in the car 4 (!!!!) different times with different men letting them touch her the way only her husband should touch her. And what do you do? Wasting your life with trying to extract the truth from her while the only thing you should do would be to gather her things, pack them and send her to her parents while preparing the divorce papers. Remember Tom: The woman you used to know does not exist anymore. You will not bring her back by hiding the obvious under the rug. You will just extend your pain and postpone the inevitable. I dont believe in reconciliation. When you get married the only law you cant break is "do not cheat", plain and simple. If you cant do that then you shouldnt get married at all. She doesnt have the ability to discuss appropriately about what bothers her and solve the problems that occur. I get she is too young and we cant expect her to be overly mature. But she is in a marriage and she has to grow up sooner or later. I am not saying she is a bad person and maybe in say ten years she will be the perfect loyal and loving wife. But are you willing to waste this time in order to wait for her to mature and grow up?

 

Tom Tom, do yourself a favor and try to take your own life in your hands. You seem like a great person and I assure you you will be able to find another woman who will love you and respect you. Hell I'd take you if I were younger and single!

 

I love your post. I know it. I know it. The fog is there. Loving the habit of loving my wife. I think you've finally put words to something I cannot explain. It's just so tough giving up the norm, especially when she is trying to be nicer. Like seriously, these past couple of days since I threatened to leave, she has been way more understanding and does so much not to piss me off. It's just hard to tell her something like, sorry it's too late, because even I feel the pain from that.

 

That's extremely sweet of you to say that I seem like a great guy. Flattered. It means a lot. Now now SummerDreams, if you took me, not only will your partner beat the crap out of me, but I won't be able to stay upset with my wife anymore, hahaha terrible. Only kidding. Those are very kind words though, hahaha. Can't stop laughing. I'm sure you two are a great couple. You seem nice and definitely have a great sense of humor. Thanks a lot for your post by the way. It means a lot to me.

[SummerDreams]

See Tom? I am a stranger from another country hundreds of miles away and I made you laugh and feel good about yourself and hopeful for the future. This must show you that your wife is nit the only person on earth capable of making you happy. There are so many really good women out there praying to find a good guy like yourself. Believe it, you deserve better.

 

And I am not that old pfff ??

[sandylee1]

This guy is in love with his wife. I have come to realize that when you're in love you can't see things clearly and maybe you don't want to anyway because you're in love, but the pesky jolts of pain keep coming up regarding something ****ty you're beloved did to you, but you have to learn to ignore those twinges. Just let it go and continue being in love.

 

I agree with you Pop.

[sandylee1]

Tom

 

I'd like to suggest that you invest time in yourself. Don't make her seem like she is your life.

 

- Go out and enjoy with your guy friends

- Get some of the stress out down at the gym

- Go for a run if that's your thing

- Whenever you step out of the house, imagine you could bump into a prospective partner. I'm not saying to chat girls up or anything like that, but always feel good about yourself when you look in the mirror.

 

- Be positive and surround yourself with positive people

 

You need to exude the air of 'I'm quite a catch you know'. Not in

an arrogant or cocky way, just as a nice guy, which I'm sure you are.

 

Your wife needs to know she's ever so lucky you're still there, because many guys would have walked.

[fellini]

Reconciliation is not something we can say will work or not work, just because it is reconciliation.

 

For you, Tom, to reconcile, you need to move past the impact of the trauma of discovery that your wife is not what you imagined her to be. Nobody is what we imagine them to be.

 

Her betrayal does not dismiss all the good things that have happened between you two, especially prior to stepping out. Those things were real, and were connected to this image of her that you had, but which you know have to include, her capacity to betray you. One does not eliminate the other.

 

Reconciliation will work if you both desire it to. Otherwise you enter into what some here called "false reconciliation". And false or failure to reconcile well can be the result of either partner NOT being on board. Not just the WS, but the BS as well.

 

The only way to test if reconciliation is going to work is to put something into effect. And if it fails, and percentages don't interest me here, if it fails, we cannot deduce from this that Reconciliation doesn't work, only that in this case, it failed.

 

The first question you need to ask yourself is if YOU are up for reconciliation. Because if you know right now that you will never put this behind you in such a way that will permit you to move forward, then you should accept that now and the fate of your marriage is determined.

 

But if you are the kind of person who thinks he can get through the initial pain and come out wanting to fight for your marriage, then create for yourself a set of guidelines and deadlines for reassessing the situation. If you leave the door slightly open with the mindset "Im watching you and if you slip up Im out the door", then I can tell you you are out the door. Because you have yet to clear the initial impact stage whereby you fully accept your wife cheated, know more or less why, and want to rebuild.

 

Rebuilding requires you to be able to say "I'm giving this 3, 4, 6 months" During that time I will work and she must work on repairing this." At the end of the deadline you can ask yourself if you want to extend it more months or not. But the important thing is to create a space within which you can tolerate good days and bad days and that we are not here merely to avoid the bad days such that when they arrive we pack our bags. This is as true of a couple trying reconciliation and it is of a couple who have not suffered infidelity.

 

Is reconciliation possible after infidelity? Of course it is.

Is reconciliation possible with your WW? None of us here is in any position to say that.