Is marriage on it's deathbed?

[serial muse]

^^^^^^^^^^This:bunny::bunny::bunny:. This was my life. 20+ years of that crap. Did I file for divorce...damn skippy.

 

Me too!

 

It's a weird thing about many male cheaters - quite often they don't want to file for divorce, not because they don't want out of the marriage, but because they think it makes them look like even more of a jerk. (Got news for those guys - that ship has sailed!)

 

My cheatin' exH actually told me that he thought it was "kinder" to let me file. Well thank you very much.

 

In all seriousness, I really do think this is a thing, a not uncommon, bizarre, dark-side attempt at twisted chivalry. A cousin to the "managed exit affair." And that is why I'm so ****ing tired of that stupid 75% stat. It is not at all reflective of what's really going down in the marriage. Anyone who actually believes that it means that 75% of women are just walkaway wives is already determined to believe it and will find a way, no matter if the divorce rate is going down or not.

 

(Guess what, the divorce rate is going down, a somewhat important detail mentioned way back, early on in this thread. But hyping that hoary old 75% stat from about 30 years ago is SO MUCH more fun!!!!1!! )

Edited March 1, 2012 by serial muse

[Mme. Chaucer]

I filed too. I "walked away" from a man who had destroyed our family, our business, finances and our home, and become a violent, criminal stalker because of his return to drug addiction.

 

I guess I was more of a "run away" wife.

 

Now that I have this nice husband, though, I'm making sure to abuse him at every opportunity, especially if other people are around to view his humiliation.

[Woggle]

I am sure many of these divorces happened for damn good reasons but I also have seen men who thought they were good husbands but it blew up in their face. They might not have been perfect but nobody is and one day their wife up and wants to kick them out because she kissed the guy at work who smiles at her and all of a sudden she is not sure if she ever loved him.

 

I am not saying all women will do this but take one look at the divorce forum and it shows why a man has good reason to be paranoid.

 

Also why is it that I am accused of being paranoid but time and time I hear these misandrist men are useless types say that deep down every married or committed envies them because they get to live a single and independent life instead of being bogged down by a man? I hear women saying this but when I repeat I get hell.

[bentnotbroken]

I am sure many of these divorces happened for damn good reasons but I also have seen men who thought they were good husbands but it blew up in their face. They might not have been perfect but nobody is and one day their wife up and wants to kick them out because she kissed the guy at work who smiles at her and all of a sudden she is not sure if she ever loved him.

 

I am not saying all women will do this but take one look at the divorce forum and it shows why a man has good reason to be paranoid.

 

Also why is it that I am accused of being paranoid but time and time I hear these misandrist men are useless types say that deep down every married or committed envies them because they get to live a single and independent life instead of being bogged down by a man? I hear women saying this but when I repeat I get hell.

 

 

It also shows a damn good reason for women to be paranoid. They thought they were being good wives and one day their husband kissed the gal at work and then came home and blew their wife's life apart...next. You get hell because you lump all women in that category. It does not matter what you type (say) it matters that you continue to dig up crap and sling it at every woman to see if it sticks. If it does, then you scream "I told you so!". Hell if I throw crap long enough it will eventually hit something that it will cling to.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I am sure many of these divorces happened for damn good reasons but I also have seen men who thought they were good husbands but it blew up in their face. They might not have been perfect but nobody is and one day their wife up and wants to kick them out because she kissed the guy at work who smiles at her and all of a sudden she is not sure if she ever loved him.

 

I am not saying all women will do this but take one look at the divorce forum and it shows why a man has good reason to be paranoid.

 

Also why is it that I am accused of being paranoid but time and time I hear these misandrist men are useless types say that deep down every married or committed envies them because they get to live a single and independent life instead of being bogged down by a man? I hear women saying this but when I repeat I get hell.

 

You sure use that word an awful lot.

 

Bottom line, Woggle, is that you are full of crap and hatred, and a great many of the MEN (yes, Woggle - I think you actually have more female supporters for your campaign of hatred here than you have male ones) and women here on LS are completely sick of it.

 

Why don't you take this garbage to one of the many "we hate wimmins" fora? You will be among all your own peeps there and you'll get a LOT of support.

 

Maybe your soul brothers, Musemaj & SteveC80, would like to accompany you.

 

If you have other things to talk about that aren't full of hate and bigotry towards a great many of us, use LS for that.

[Woggle]

How have I spread hatred? I say all the time that I am not talking about all women and that if what I say does not apply then I am not talking about you.

 

That being said what I speak about is something many men face these days in their relationships. Just look at divorce forum. I don't want to go to a woman hating site because I am not some chauvinist who wants to turn women into second class citizens. I just want mutual respect and equality between both genders.

[donnamaybe]

I just want mutual respect and equality between both genders.

Then PUHLEEZ show it! If you want to discuss divorce, let's talk about ALL divorces, not just the ones initiated by women (which may or may not have been because of a cheating or abusive husband, by the way).

[Woggle]

Then PUHLEEZ show it! If you want to discuss divorce, let's talk about ALL divorces, not just the ones initiated by women (which may or may not have been because of a cheating or abusive husband, by the way).

 

I agree but the fact of the matter is that because of certain issues the male divorce experience is much different than the female divorce experience. I am not bashing women but there are certain things like family court issues that mostly men face.

[donnamaybe]

I agree but...

Oh, fer cryin' in the rain...

[Mme. Chaucer]

Why I Am So Infuriated By Woggle's Never-Changing Threads:

 

> You insult the integrity of all women based on any specific examples you can find, including those from your real life.

 

> Your position that we all need to "prove it" to you that women aren't monsters is f****d up and I'm tired of hearing about it.

 

> You insult the sanctity of ALL of our marriages, including yours.

 

>You claim to be speaking for "the MALE point of view," while in fact, there is rarely a coherent male here backing you up.

 

> You are constantly stirring the pot of your imaginary "gender wars," which mostly just exist in your head. You engender (haha, nice word in the context) a great deal of animosity and negativity with this hobby of yours.

 

> All your action and attention goes towards feeding the ugliness, and never a shred towards any positive resolution.

 

> You are an attention whore.

 

> You insult and dismiss all of us, our personal experiences and posts when they don't support your SICKNESS; for example, when I shared with you about my own abusive mother and marriage, that warranted no comment at all from you.

 

> It's painful to watch as you destroy your current marriage, especially knowing that when it finally disintegrates due to your SICKNESS, you will gloatingly blame it all on her.

 

Side note: All healthy marriages take WORK. Either partner wallowing in sickness is a death knell for a healthy marriage.

 

> It's painful and angering to watch you squander your chance at happiness with a woman who, evidently, loves you and was a good choice.

 

> It's disgusting to realize that when your marriage ends because your wife can no longer stand to be married to a man who hates women, who never stops wallowing in self pity and negativity, and who has placed on her shoulders the entire burden of "proving" that women aren't total scum - you will be exploding with self righteous validation, and probably be much happier to have been proven "right" than you would have been in a happy marriage.

 

Otherwise, you'd be spending your time working on having a happy marriage rather than on destruction.

 

Complete and wild abandon to self pity makes me mad, too.

 

Woggle, I am sure there are a lot more reasons why I practically see red when I read some of the garbage you sling at us here, but I'll stop. I truly and honestly believe that LoveShack is not the place for what you do. There really are sites populated exclusively by likeminded guys who will support your perspective and help you add fuel to your own fires, or you could just have a blog. But LoveShack is open to you, and I guess since you've been carrying on just like this here for years before I ever showed up, you won't be stopping now.

 

I've had you on ignore before, and I guess it's time to do it again. It's stupid to have any emotional reaction at all to virtual strangers on the Internet.

 

Bye. Enjoy the misery you create.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[Ursa]

I agree but the fact of the matter is that because of certain issues the male divorce experience is much different than the female divorce experience. I am not bashing women but there are certain things like family court issues that mostly men face.

 

Allright, I'll bite. Which family court issues are you referring to?

 

One thing I've noticed a lot of men hold as a 'truism' is that men get screwed in custody issues in family courts. I have been intimately involved in custody issues in family court, two different states, two different families. In one, the man got every other weekend with his child--because that was all he could make time for. The court was very clear that he was entitled to take more time, but he wouldn't change his life to make that feasible. Yet he still complained about the system being rigged against him, because he had to pay a few hundred bucks a month in child support, while the mother changed her life around to be able to take on all the actual responsibility for their child, by herself.

 

In the other case, another state, the court made it very explicit that 50/50 custody was the standard, and would not be deviated from except in cases of extreme neglect or abuse, or if one parent actually wanted less than 50% and signed it their right to more time away, similarly to the other case I was involved in.

 

I have also seen stay-at-home mother's forced to go back to work by court order, once their children were old enough to be in school...and women who earned more than their ex-husbands, paying them child support.

 

I wonder about the actual experiences of men who insist that the court system is rigged against them. It might be true still in some states, but it's not a fact all across the board. I also wonder if they're just repeating something they heard or read somewhere, that might have been true thirty years ago but no longer holds water today.

[xxoo]

I have to echo Ursa here.

 

I've got kids. My kids have friends. Many of them go back and forth between parents, 50/50.

 

I don't know a single kid that does the "every other weekend" thing. It just isn't common anymore.

 

Things that were terribly unfair in the past are different now.

[Woggle]

I am sorry about what happened with your mother and your husband. Nobody deserves to go through that kind of abuse.

 

I just don't ever want to be the doormat my father was. I look at how he was in the relationship with my mother and I vow to never be that. I will never be a victim like he was and like I was back in the day. If the only way not to be a victim is to go to the other extreme then it is better than the alternative. It's the same way my mother operates. She will never let a man victimize her and for all her faults she never has let a man abuse her since childhood.

[xxoo]

If the only way not to be a victim is to go to the other extreme then it is better than the alternative.

 

Of course, that is NOT the only way not to be a victim.

 

So you need to rationalize some other way.

 

It's the same way my mother operates. She will never let a man victimize her and for all her faults she never has let a man abuse her since childhood.

 

Interesting that you can see that.

 

You are ok with being like your mom?

[donnamaybe]

I am sorry about what happened with your mother and your husband. Nobody deserves to go through that kind of abuse.

 

I just don't ever want to be the doormat my father was. I look at how he was in the relationship with my mother and I vow to never be that. I will never be a victim like he was and like I was back in the day. If the only way not to be a victim is to go to the other extreme then it is better than the alternative. It's the same way my mother operates. She will never let a man victimize her and for all her faults she never has let a man abuse her since childhood.

Do you foresee your wife expecting you to be her "doormat?" I seriously doubt it. So WHY WHY WHY do you even PONDER it!?

[Woggle]

Of course, that is NOT the only way not to be a victim.

 

So you need to rationalize some other way.

 

 

 

Interesting that you can see that.

 

You are ok with being like your mom?

 

I am not ok with being like my mom but I would rather be that than be like my dad back then.

 

I also get paranoid how many women deep down really feel about being married to their husbands and I don't want to end up like those men. Before you say I am just being paranoid go any on any mainstream website, search for an article about marriage and look at the comments from women. Though I know all women are not like that I wish people would at least acknowledge that this is not all in my head and that men have legitimate fears of ending up in a marriage like that.

[donnamaybe]

I am not ok with being like my mom but I would rather be that than be like my dad back then.

So perpetuate the BS then. Good job! NOT!

 

I also get paranoid how many women deep down really feel about being married to their husbands and I don't want to end up like those men. Before you say I am just being paranoid go any on any mainstream website, search for an article about marriage and look at the comments from women. Though I know all women are not like that I wish people would at least acknowledge that this is not all in my head and that men have legitimate fears of ending up in a marriage like that.

And how many people who are having GOOD marriages are going to search out and respond on a message board or in an article about marriages? Very few if any. They are too busy enjoying their M's!

 

But not you. You search far and wide to find as much negative BS as you can possible absorb.

[Untouchable_Fire]

> You insult the integrity of all women based on any specific examples you can find, including those from your real life.

 

> You insult the sanctity of ALL of our marriages, including yours.

 

I have been transitioning through a period similar to Woggle for a long time. It's going on 2 years now... and I can honestly say it's getting better.

 

My personal life being all smiles, rainbows and sunshine on the outside... covered over a lot of pain, and insecurity. I'm sure Woggle is feeling similar.

 

I think the difference is that the pain and problems for Woggle are tied to childhood emotional abuse. It keeps him from healing... so he has created this equilibrium.

 

What I really don't get is how the women here react to him. When I read his posts... I know what he is talking about, and it doesn't include ALL WOMEN. I see all the women on this board similar to him... Negative Nancy, Disenchantedly Yours... and many, many more. Their posts don't really get my hackles up. After a few threads I figured out where they are coming from and it really doesn't bother me that they hate men.

 

To me you have to be really self interested to have this offend you. If DY had a bad boyfriend that crapped on her and made her hate men... I feel bad for her. I understand that wound may never heal. I don't expect her to heal tomorrow... that just strikes me as selfish.

 

I have also seen stay-at-home mother's forced to go back to work by court order, once their children were old enough to be in school...and women who earned more than their ex-husbands, paying them child support.

I wonder about the actual experiences of men who insist that the court system is rigged against them. It might be true still in some states, but it's not a fact all across the board. I also wonder if they're just repeating something they heard or read somewhere, that might have been true thirty years ago but no longer holds water today.

 

I've seen a few women get messed over in a divorce too.

 

I've been through divorce personally... and I got screwed hard. It isn't the courts fault... it's really just how the law works, and my 22yo ignorance about it.

 

I also have a friend who was ordered to pay $40,000yr in child support when his wife moved in with another guy and filed divorce. The other guy hates kids so she just dropped them off at his house and comes back once a month to see them. When he filed for a motion to remove the child support she went to their school and took them back... then refused to let him even speak to them for 2 months... until he dropped the petition. Once the petition was dropped... she leaves the kids with him again.

 

Fact is that family court holds an enormous gender bias. Most women simply are very nice and giving. The women that are ruthless and not above lies... they get whatever they want. Luckily, they are fairly rare.

 

If you look at the process as a whole... it provides the greatest benefit to be biggest jerk. To me that's why it sucks.

[xxoo]

I am not ok with being like my mom but I would rather be that than be like my dad back then.

 

No one wants you to be your dad.

 

Being your dad is bad.

Being your mom is bad.

 

Try to do better. Know better, do better.

 

Though I know all women are not like that I wish people would at least acknowledge that this is not all in my head and that men have legitimate fears of ending up in a marriage like that.

 

Caution is legitimate. Surely you chose a spouse with caution and good judgment.

 

Fear, while married to a loving wife, is not legitimate. It is irrational, and damaging to your relationship. You WILL drive her away.

[Woggle]

I don't search for bad marriages. I search for marriage in general and that is what I find. Maybe negative people are more vocal but it doesn't make a man feel good about what his wife really feels.

[donnamaybe]

I don't search for bad marriages. I search for marriage in general and that is what I find. Maybe negative people are more vocal but it doesn't make a man feel good about what his wife really feels.

Yes, the negative people are going to be more vocal. You are a PRIME example of that!

[Woggle]

In reality I don't want to be like either one of my parents but when I feel under attack that side of me that very much is like my mother comes out and to be honest it has done some good for me. If I never turned negative against the opposite sex after my divorce I would have never become successful and be able to have my house already paid off. It gave me that drive to really go for it. It's no coincidence that all this happened after my divorce.

[donnamaybe]

In reality I don't want to be like either one of my parents but when I feel under attack that side of me that very much is like my mother comes out and to be honest it has done some good for me. If I never turned negative against the opposite sex after my divorce I would have never become successful and be able to have my house already paid off. It gave me that drive to really go for it. It's no coincidence that all this happened after my divorce.

It's good to be proud of your accomplishments, but it isn't because of your distrust of women. It's just because YOU DID IT! And now you have a wonderful woman to share it with. DON'T F IT UP!

[Mme. Chaucer]

What I really don't get is how the women here react to him. When I read his posts... I know what he is talking about, and it doesn't include ALL WOMEN.

 

Most of us who end up angry with him have reached out to him on a personal level and basically been dismissed or ignored.

 

He's not talking about "ALL women," but women are guilty until proven innocent. And, he often says "MOST women."

 

I don't have much more patience when DY or NN do it with their feelings about men, but they are nowhere near as relentless as this guy.

 

Also, I'm sure you know, I can't stand it when such things are directed at racial groups or nationalities. I've said it before - if some white guy who had been beaten up and robbed by black guys came here over, and over, and over citing nasty posts by individual black people and stuff on the Internet about misdeeds done by black people to "prove" the basic horribleness of black people, I would be just as horrified. Especially if he kept it up for years. And years. And maybe was married to a black person himself. And had made connections with black people on the Internet and in real life.

 

Nope. Wouldn't tolerate it well at all.

[Woggle]

When have I dismissed anybody that has reached to me on a personal? I have always said I appreciated people here who have helped.