25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[Yumisekai]

You're right. Now or never.

Time is of the essence. The longer the delay, the worse for her.

Serious problems like these need courage from your part to face it.

She will probably get worse and less likely to hear.

She still doesn't know yet the she's tuning with the wrong tune.

You know, we all have fear of something when it's a true challenge for us. It just means that you are able to face it.

 

You either try and fail/succeed (You learn something even if you fail, and chances are that you'll learn more by failure) or never try and keep the doubts inside you.

 

She will probably be like "What was I doing?".

 

Go on, you're able to do it.

[tojaz]

Tojaz thank you for all of that! I appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

I agree it's s lot to take in, which is one reason why I'd never consider making a decision in this forum. The other is I eventually have to share what I'm learning and considering with my wife. I have felt the pull of logic and emotion. I read an extremely helpful paper/book I found online, written FOR a cheater BY a woman who was cheated on, and she said the same thing. It's a constant struggle but both have to be integrated for the outcome to be sustainable.

 

Absolutely Nick, there is a place for both, but the purpose of both has to be clear. The heart is fragile and we all have many things in place to protect it, logic (or whatever you would like to call it) is one of those things. Logic helps us determine how we'd like to be treated in the relationship and helps us determine when things are not doing so well and the ways we might go about repairing the damage. It does very little for your emotional well being though, because while working in unison, they are very different entities. Logic boils it down to a checklist of things necessary in a marriage, but these are not the things that draw two people together. Stimulating conversation, someone to spend your free time, even sex are easy to find in this day and age, with no strings attached so thats not the binding force here, these are important but they are fringe benefits of the whole. Its not about why your considering divorce or why you had the affair, in this case its more about why you stopped yourself. Why your here asking questions rather then planning your escape. Logic is selfish, Love is not. Somewhere in the middle is you.

 

" How many of those you list are close to the real reason you wanted to see her more? Or the reason your considering separation now?"

Well the real reasons can be simplified into two things: 1. Not enough alone time with her talking and just hanging; and 2. A stilted and infrequent sex life.

and what is it that she needs from you? What does she have to say about all this? Did she no, did she say shes trying, is she on the same fence as you? Did you ask? Youve said a lot of the things that you need from her, but shes not the one ending the marriage. Shes accepted an awful lot! Every time you feel hurt, torn, flat out frustrated, shes going through the same thing on her end.

 

If your looking for justification to end your marriage, there are plenty of people who will give you that, but I'm not one of them. If you want off the fence, next time you see your wife, look her in the eye and ask yourself if your eager to have that be the last time you ever will.

 

Thats how it works Nick, your looking for progress, but don't know what direction you hope that progress will be. Its no wonder your not getting anywhere. You said it, whole hog! The only question left is.... in which direction?

 

TOJAZ

[NickFeek]

You're right. Now or never.

Time is of the essence. The longer the delay, the worse for her.

Serious problems like these need courage from your part to face it.

She will probably get worse and less likely to hear.

She still doesn't know yet the she's tuning with the wrong tune.

You know, we all have fear of something when it's a true challenge for us. It just means that you are able to face it.

 

You either try and fail/succeed (You learn something even if you fail, and chances are that you'll learn more by failure) or never try and keep the doubts inside you.

 

She will probably be like "What was I doing?".

 

Go on, you're able to do it.

 

That's very encouraging. Thank you.

[lovingwhatis]

For me ironically it's being in the middle of NYC. There's an eye of the storm calm I feel that I can't find anywhere else.

I think both of us have been living parallel nightmares, but I've been gradually waking up for a while. Time for me to go whole hog.

 

Love the way you put it! We have all been living parallel nightmares. I myself am doing some waking up too. My teacher says the most important part of waking up is earnestness. When one wants it more than any of the false ideas one has been believing, something magical happens.

 

Very glad for you, Nick!

[NickFeek]

Its not about why your considering divorce or why you had the affair, in this case its more about why you stopped yourself. Why your here asking questions rather then planning your escape. Logic is selfish, Love is not. Somewhere in the middle is you.

I agree. I could have left the minute she found out. But I do believe there's something to save, and I'm not ready to end my life with her, assuming circumstances will improve thru our work.

and what is it that she needs from you? What does she have to say about all this? Did she no, did she say shes trying, is she on the same fence as you?*Did you ask? Youve said a lot of the things that you need from her, but shes not the one ending the marriage. Shes accepted an awful lot! Every time you feel hurt, torn, flat out frustrated, shes going through the same thing on her end.

I have asked her and she has not been able to answer. Dont know if you read my three questions post, but that's included in there. We both need to get what we need for the future to work.

 

The last two paragraphs really hit home as well.

Last two paras

[NickFeek]

Love the way you put it! We have all been living parallel nightmares. I myself am doing some waking up too. My teacher says the most important part of waking up is earnestness. When one wants it more than any of the false ideas one has been believing, something magical happens.

 

Very glad for you, Nick!

 

Thanks! And that's so true about being ready. I've experienced that in other realms.

[lovingwhatis]

Absolutely!

 

I will make a short comment on the needs part that you've been discussing throughout. Can you contemplate that there are no "needs" to be fulfilled and nothing to "save"? How could that be, you'll say? But I "need" x, y, and z! Its is for sure!

 

In my experience, when the waking up occurs, the needs literally fall away, you almost can't remember them, in the same way you struggle remembering the dream after waking up. It is the most bizarre, and sometimes disorienting experience. So your needs are your gauge that you are still holding on to false ideas.

 

You gotta be willing to give up All without any expectations for a benefit. It feels like giving up to your ego, but it is not! It is the beginning of freedom. Totally counter intuitive. The thing we fear most is the thing that can free us most.

 

Thanks! And that's so true about being ready. I've experienced that in other realms.

[NickFeek]

Wow, that's another one I'm going to have to sit with for a while. I've heard this within different philosophies, and have felt it to a degree with some of my creative work, but it's hard to fathom in the context of a relationship. Will definitely take time.

[NickFeek]

That's right: 1. Boundaries, Where You End and I Begin.

2. Harville Hendrix: Getting the Love You Deserve.

 

I hope you like reading, saving a marriage often means acquiring a library. You took 25 years to screw it up, you gotta read at least 25 hours to put it back together.

 

I meant to respond to this a while ago. I love reading, and have already read three books that have helped. I'll definitely look into these. I think I can handle 25 hours.

[trippi1432]

Nick - I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask something....you mention several times that your work is in a creative field....creativity tends to stem from the emotional side of us. We tend to feed creativity from the things around us that inspire us...love, tragedy...etc. Logic is the part of us that we use to try and make the emotional fit...sometimes that makes us conflicted when we try to use the two to make sense.

 

I see the the response to the "waking up" philosophy as something that you tend to gravitate towards currently. With the recent affair that you went through...your "waking up" could be a product of finding what you think has been missing in your marriage. Going back to your previous post, 1. miss talking and hanging out. 2. miss the sexual aspect of the marriage. The two intimacies you are missing are mutually exclusive, but both are necessary. One is intimacy, the other is physical intimacy.

 

Thinking back....do you feel that this "waking up" for you happened before the affair or after?

[NickFeek]

That is a great question. I can say without a doubt that it happened after. This is how I see it.

 

I was in such a bad state before that I railroaded myself into becoming emotionally attached to this woman, and then briefly physically. I blame no one but myself for that.

 

The physical was such a shock to my system and sense of self (the morning after that is, I was only semi conscious the night of), that it served to toss a bomb right into my center.

 

In an effort to put the pieces back together, I had to reexamine each one to see where it fit. In the process I was forced to see everything in a new light, and learned that quite a few pieces did not fit anymore, at least not where they were. That's when I realized there was no going back. And once my wife found out, that sealed the deal.

 

So it was not an overnight awakening, but I can still feel all those weeks and weeks of moments as one long revelation. And I have to say no matter how we decide to turn this out, I will be better than whatever I was before. I can only hope my wife will eventually be better too, and I'll do what I can to help with that, whatever that may mean for the future of our marriage.

 

No going back.

[trippi1432]

That is a great question. I can say without a doubt that it happened after. This is how I see it.

 

I was in such a bad state before that I railroaded myself into becoming emotionally attached to this woman, and then briefly physically. I blame no one but myself for that.

 

The physical was such a shock to my system and sense of self (the morning after that is, I was only semi conscious the night of), that it served to toss a bomb right into my center.

 

In an effort to put the pieces back together, I had to reexamine each one to see where it fit. In the process I was forced to see everything in a new light, and learned that quite a few pieces did not fit anymore, at least not where they were. That's when I realized there was no going back. And once my wife found out, that sealed the deal.

 

So it was not an overnight awakening, but I can still feel all those weeks and weeks of moments as one long revelation. And I have to say no matter how we decide to turn this out, I will be better than whatever I was before. I can only hope my wife will eventually be better too, and I'll do what I can to help with that, whatever that may mean for the future of our marriage.

 

No going back.

 

Nick - if I may point out something to you...not sure how much you have looked into this, there is a term called affair fog. Even though the affair was brief, it began as an EA.....emotional affairs affect the cognitive parts of our brain...they create a bond that is harder to break than just the normal PA. Put the emotional and physical together, it can take more than just a few months to shake, it can even become more real to you than the actual reality you are living.

 

I feel that you are still in this state, based on your posts here....some other responses that seemed to shift your emotional responses towards some posters on your thread, and your ease at rationalizing every post that has been in response to you. What this rationalization does is help shift the guilt that you are feeling to rewriting the past events of your life. It may not be a complete rewrite, but an actual complacency on both yours and your wife's parts during the marriage...suffice it a sort of "cruise control"...that now, due to the affair, you have had this awakening that what was a 19 year marriage is not good enough anymore like it is.

 

In the interim, you are trying to walk the middle road....from your perspective and hers on occasion. I note this in your previous posts where things do need to change and there is no going back...as well as she is not working on knowing what her needs are to be able to help you understand them...but more...understand that your needs have to be met as well. What may be happening Nick is that you may be coming down from the euphoria of that affair fog since it has been exposed.

 

What have your wife's reaction's been since she now knows about the affair?

[NickFeek]

trippi, this post twisted my brow more than any other.

 

I am sure I'm still partially in the affair fog (and no I've never heard of or looked into that, so thanks for introducing it). I have definitely struggled internally with breaking that emotional bond. Though I don't see the woman anymore, I do still have a hard time shaking how it all felt. That state is subsiding, but very slowly.

 

I also believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Our 19 years of marriage was a combination of good times, complacency, and some really bad times - and that's from beginning to now, with no set periods of either bliss OR awfulness - a volatile mix every single year. So no, I'm not doing a complete rewrite. We both made mistakes all down the line, each in our characteristic ways.

 

I see how the fog might color all of those facts. I think one reason why I refuse to make a decision on our marriage at this point is because some part of me knows that I'm not fully back from the "trip" I took, and so to decide in that state of mind would do an injustice.

 

But as I'm coming out of that fog, what I'm feeling predominantly is profound sadness, continued guilt, and a large degree of courage & determination to confront once and for all the things that have eroded our marriage. That's where the "no going back" comes from.

 

I know that much of the affair euphoria is illusionary, and would never have lasted had we continued (or probably not). But I also know that the friendship & bond were genuine, and it woke me to the fact that I had been missing that for many many years, and maybe never fully had it with my wife. We've had parts of it sporadically, enough to keep hope alive until recently, but never enough for either of us to feel safe & secure & fully committed. I do want that with her, and do intend to work to at least see if it's possible. I owe her & us that much & more. Whether this is an end or a new beginning for us, this period deserves all the time & effort we can put into it. And that includes whatever recovery period she needs after what I've done.

 

My wife has been all of these since she found out: patient, supportive, flexible in allowing me to continue much of the work I need to do (the other woman works in the same company with me, though we don't work together at all anymore); also depressed, enraged to the point of violence (she hit me once a few months ago), confused, sickened, hurt; also loving, sympathetic to my loneliness, steadfast in keeping our day to day lives with work & kids intact; also avoiding, overworking even more. She wants us to work things out but has serious doubts that we can, or that she can ever get over this. One day she believes I want this to work, another she feels I did what I did to end our marriage. In short, nothing out of the ordinary for this circumstance, and probably more loving & supportive than many spouses would be. (As many here have said, I could & maybe should have been kicked to the curb.)

 

To be more concrete, she has asked/demanded the following:

1. I'm never to speak to or correspond with the woman again - nothing friendly at all.

2. I'm never to work with her in a one-on-one or close-knit setting ever again (which means I've had to give up or modify certain projects).

3. She requested she not see my parents for several months, and only recently were they together (for my daughter's school play).

4. Full access to my email account whenever she wants it.

5. We both establish a more respectful & cordial communication & household atmosphere on a daily basis.

 

There may be other, smaller things, but those stand out as paramount to her maintaining any kind of trust & peace of mind. Some of these are/were harder than others, but none seem unreasonable FOR NOW.

 

Please if I haven't fully answered your question, let me know. This was a very helpful & thought-provoking post, so I want to be sure I'm thorough.

 

Thanks.

[trippi1432]

Very thorough....and yes, these are all typical requests when one has had to deal with infidelity. The emotions she is going through, very normal as well for someone having to deal with infidelity and trying to recover. As someone else said on your thread...it's similar to taking a gunshot wound to the chest. Not raking you over the coals though because you do seem to want to save the marriage and work on it.

 

A lot of what you have described thus far over your emotions and rationalizations are, most likely, many of the emotions my exH went through with his EA before he left and it turned to a PA....will continue to follow your thread.

[NickFeek]

Very thorough....and yes, these are all typical requests when one has had to deal with infidelity. The emotions she is going through, very normal as well for someone having to deal with infidelity and trying to recover. As someone else said on your thread...it's similar to taking a gunshot wound to the chest. Not raking you over the coals though because you do seem to want to save the marriage and work on it.

 

A lot of what you have described thus far over your emotions and rationalizations are, most likely, many of the emotions my exH went through with his EA before he left and it turned to a PA....will continue to follow your thread.

 

Good to know it's all typical on both sides. For better or worse, I need feedback on new territory like this to make sure I'm not way off base. Yes, I do want to work on the marriage, but a little more raking over the coals is no problem for me. I'm not perfect by any means, but I'm not used to messing up to THIS degree, so I have no problem taking my share of whatever's coming my way.

 

I confess your last line made me curious. I searched your old posts & read that first long story your put up. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And I admire how together you seem to be now. Though our situations are very different, a few things you said in that story resonated with me. Of those, I HAVE to quote this one:

 

"Maybe I am wrong, but I would rather be wanted than needed."

I have been saying this in my head for six months. I was actually amazed that you used almost the exact same wording. I completely understand the distinction. I know she needs me. I suspect she wants me - but A. having to "suspect" it is inadequate - actions rarely seem to follow that are enough to validate my "suspicions"; and B. if I don't feel wanted, and haven't for a long time, whatever it is she holds in her heart is irrelevant. And maybe that's why I'm having such a hard time shaking my affair. I felt desperately wanted by a grown woman for the first time in my entire life. Again, I'm fairly damn certain my wife does want me, but it seems she has an almost impossible time bringing herself to show that. And also again, this doesn't excuse my behavior, but it's a cold existence having to guess at a person's heart.

[trippi1432]

Ick - My old threads...quite a challenge....but thank you, the work on putting ourselves back together is a very long process. I still have many issues that I continue to work on. My biggest hurdle, unfortunately, is trusting again.

 

On the quote, being wanted rather than needed, the "wanted" part is two-fold. My conclusion of being wanted may be different. I equate being wanted as true intimacy...being wanted is when your spouse enjoys your company, wants to see you first thing in the morning, wants to be there for you and with you, your voice is the one that they love to hear, your touch, your presence brings them happiness and peace. That to me is what a want is...the actions are two people wanting to make each other happy, the actions of those wants are two people taking the time to shift their priorities to be good to each other in spite of the difficulties...mainly because they want to be with each other, they want each other in their lives and be a part of that life everyday....sharing.

 

The Need is different, the need is the other things in the relationship. Need is the things that can get done by anyone. Yes, needing someone does have it's place in the relationship...but the significant importance is that you want a person to be a part of your life.

 

Not sure that your want versus need is the same. To be wanted by a woman is a physical intimacy, a sexual want is not the same as wanting someone to be a totally fulfilling part of your life. If the want is there as in true intimacy, suffice it to say, physical intimacy should follow. What you had with your AP was a sexual want on both parts which actually fulfilled a need.

[NickFeek]

trippi, that's a great way to describe being wanted. I know that I miss the emotional wanting as much as I do the physical. Prior to the last six months, we could go days & weeks without so much as a real conversation or a peck on the cheek, while fulfilling each other's "needs" without too much issue. I began to feel like I had become the caretaker of the house & kids, and that whatever companionship we had was getting lost more & more every day. In fact, the only time it seemed she wanted me badly enough to reach out was during a crisis. The icing on that cake for me was when I'd repeatedly try to draw her out from wherever she was "hiding" by telling her point blank I wasn't doing well, I was lonely, we need to talk more often, etc. And that would be met with an "I hear you", followed by weeks & months of overwork & no action.

 

I agree that the physical follows from the emotional. My wife has been very open & clear about this. I could see why she'd start to pull away more from me, since the last year before my EA/PA I was not the most patient & understanding person regarding her job. And yet even when we were connecting emotionally, things would only get so far, both in conversation & physical intimacy. We had a great getaway trip last May for four nights. We really connected in every way. But I contend to this day that it was in large part because she forgot her Blackberry charger & had no access to work emails. Even then there'd be hours when she was on the phone, but it was much much less than a usual "day off". Part of me looks back fondly on that trip. The other part hurts, knowing that it only really happened that way because of the Blackberry issue.

 

What I had with my AP (does that mean the woman I had an affair with? I'm not up on all the abbreviations!) was both emotional & physical. We found we connected on many levels. She would actually answer my emails & texts - something my wife does hardly ever to this day. Her effort to talk to & connect with me was constant. She would listen to my concerns with patience & try to help work them out. She'd ask to go to a movie or just hang out with me. Even after we quit the physical part, she still wanted to hang with me. No question the sexual was a big part, especially for that one-week period, but it was because we connected emotionally first.

 

My wife can still go days without returning emails or phone calls, and it's been that way for years. Difficult job notwithstanding, I can't understand why she'd choose to just skip over my reaching out to her. It's as though I just don't rank in her mind in comparison to work. In fact, other than a handful of true responses - which feel like emotional gold to me - the only time she consistently answers my emails or calls is when it's about the kids. Again, I know deep down she does want me to some large degree, but it so seldom is a priority or reality for her/us that that "deep down" just doesn't matter.

 

Having said that, she's been better since the infidelity. She still hardly ever answers calls or emails, but when she does it's with more kindness & concern, and with the sense that she's actually listening to & considering what I'm saying/asking. Unless, that is, she's preoccupied with work, which can be both in and out of the office. Then it's like I'm barely even there.

 

I think our talks are helping to repair some of the disconnection. But I'm not at the point yet where I'm hopeful that old patterns will change.

[lovingwhatis]

Nick,

 

I want to thank you for sharing the way you have been in this thread. It has resulted in me reflecting back and looking deeper within, which is something I avoid at times. This weekend was a good inward weekend and to have the conversation to spark some stuff has been helpful! I have also enjoyed the responses, so many people here who are eager to share their quite intense experiences for the purpose of learning. Trippi, I loved what you said about true intimacy!

 

First I want to say that the things I have been writing you do take time, for it is a whole spiritual awakening I am alluding to. A few years ago I had a bomb explode in me (love that analogy!) and it became quite clear that I would never be able to put back the pieces the way they were before, and like you, I didn't want to anyway. But this process, the process you seem to be going through, is similar, and it is so non linear that at times becomes futile to try to pinpoint it. But it is real. Like you, I do creative work, and have undeniably experienced the letting go there, it has shifted my work tremendously because of it. I have also experienced big changes in virtually all my relationships (friends and family included), changes that though sometimes feel tenuous, are nevertheless very profound and lasting.

 

The only thing I would rake you over coals with is what took you so long to really address these deep things with your W? An A is certainly the avoidant way to address this, and the betrayal of trust is brutal, but the underlying issues in your particular case were so intense that I honestly can't quite fathom HOW you actually went on for as long as you did. And the two years of no sex in the beginning? That sounds absolutely heartbreaking, and it feels like the learned helplessness that you probably developed as a result of the trauma has skewed your perspective all these years. I trust you didn't exaggerate that part, and if you didn't,what actually changed after enough for you to have some sex life and have kids? Something must have.

 

And the needing vs. wanting. I have a different view on this. Both the needs and the wants are based on our belief that there is something that we are lacking inherently and that we can get from another. Even wanting to be loved is essentially a want too. It is an extremely deep want, probably programmed in our DNA, and for the longest time I believed that this want was completely unavoidable, understandable, and I would be justified in spending my life finding ways to fulfill that want. But what appears is that love doesn't work that way. The love people give us never seems ultimately enough. There is always something missing. Because that love can never be as satiating as the love that comes from within.

 

You have felt starved for love from your W. What if instead you have been starving yourself from that love?

[2sunny]

read the four agreements by Ruiz

 

find out what makes YOU happy... not a version of happy in accordance to what "others" tell you what that is supposed to look like for you...

 

be the warrior - not the victim of self... yes, SELF based on what others require you to DO or not do.

 

this is up to you...

[NickFeek]

Nick,

 

I want to thank you for sharing the way you have been in this thread. It has resulted in me reflecting back and looking deeper within, which is something I avoid at times. This weekend was a good inward weekend and to have the conversation to spark some stuff has been helpful! I have also enjoyed the responses, so many people here who are eager to share their quite intense experiences for the purpose of learning. Trippi, I loved what you said about true intimacy!

Really nice to hear this is having some impact beyond what I'm looking for!

First I want to say that the things I have been writing you do take time, for it is a whole spiritual awakening I am alluding to. A few years ago I had a bomb explode in me (love that analogy!) and it became quite clear that I would never be able to put back the pieces the way they were before, and like you, I didn't want to anyway. But this process, the process you seem to be going through, is similar, and it is so non linear that at times becomes futile to try to pinpoint it. But it is real. Like you, I do creative work, and have undeniably experienced the letting go there, it has shifted my work tremendously because of it. I have also experienced big changes in virtually all my relationships (friends and family included), changes that though sometimes feel tenuous, are nevertheless very profound and lasting.

Does sound similar in many ways, and thank you for letting me know that. Yes, that's where I've been able to let go the most, in my creative work. Though I have experienced it elsewhere as well. Just never really in the context of my marriage.

The only thing I would rake you over coals with is what took you so long to really address these deep things with your W? An A is certainly the avoidant way to address this, and the betrayal of trust is brutal, but the underlying issues in your particular case were so intense that I honestly can't quite fathom HOW you actually went on for as long as you did. And the two years of no sex in the beginning? That sounds absolutely heartbreaking, and it feels like the learned helplessness that you probably developed as a result of the trauma has skewed your perspective all these years. I trust you didn't exaggerate that part, and if you didn't,what actually changed after enough for you to have some sex life and have kids? Something must have.

I think you answered the first question you asked by citing learned helplessness. I know all about that in relation to abuse, addiction, etc. Just never applied it to myself until you said it. I used to have a real problem with assertion & aggression of any kind - even the healthy kind. And I'd sublimate that in unhealthy ways, which did no go to me, my wife or our marriage. No, sadly I did not exaggerate the no sex for two years. It's hard for me to remember what changed, except that somewhere in my head I said, "I'm almost 26 and a virgin. I need to end that now." And despite my wife's continued discomfort (to this day), I forged ahead - with her agreement & blessing - and we pushed through. After that it was & has never been any more relaxed or looser, but we were able to develop some degree of a sex life. In painful fits & starts, and with hardly any verbal communication (she doesn't like to talk about "that stuff"). Also during those two years, she insisted we tell no one & ask no one for help. It was a lonely time, as have been many years.

And the needing vs. wanting. I have a different view on this. Both the needs and the wants are based on our belief that there is something that we are lacking inherently and that we can get from another. Even wanting to be loved is essentially a want too. It is an extremely deep want, probably programmed in our DNA, and for the longest time I believed that this want was completely unavoidable, understandable, and I would be justified in spending my life finding ways to fulfill that want. But what appears is that love doesn't work that way. The love people give us never seems ultimately enough. There is always something missing. Because that love can never be as satiating as the love that comes from within.

You have felt starved for love from your W. What if instead you have been starving yourself from that love?

I don't quite see it as that black & white. I do firmly believe we need to love and like ourselves in order to be open to others, and that no amount of what we get from others will fill a hole that's missing self-love & self-respect. However, I also firmly believe in the interconnectedness of everyone, and that the true purpose of our time on this earth is to strengthen connections & bonds in healthy ways. Part of that is exchanging, sharing, answering needs, receiving needs, etc. And that no matter how self-fulfilled we might be, it's the rare person who can exist without forms of fulfillment from others. There's certainly many lines on many levels, and many unhealthy and healthy ways to go about this, but that to me is part of life's journey. That combination of giving yourself what you need, and being open to giving & receiving to others, which entails being vulnerable to needs on both sides.

[NickFeek]

read the four agreements by Ruiz

 

find out what makes YOU happy... not a version of happy in accordance to what "others" tell you what that is supposed to look like for you...

 

be the warrior - not the victim of self... yes, SELF based on what others require you to DO or not do.

 

this is up to you...

 

I'll look it up, thanks. I can definitely say I had spent too many of our early years trying to figure out other people's versions of happiness or a "good life", and that the last 10+ years I've spent correcting that course, trying to figure out what that means for me. I guess part of the outcome of that has been that my wife & I are going to conflict more, and possibly drift onto different roads at times, because I'm no longer just trying to fit into her shoebox. Just need to find a healthier & less damaging (to either of us) way to do that, and I think that's what's happening now.

[lovingwhatis]

Nick!

 

That's what I mean, the last paragraph really sent me thinking about how I relate to my wants and needs! Really helpful. I guess I should have not gone as far as putting the needs in the same sentence as wants in terms of what we can provide for ourselves. Yes, we have needs, and they are not imaginary, and yes a need for belonging and for affection is not to be brushed aside as not having validity or that it can be fully fulfilled from within. Trust me, I am not antisocial, and I strongly participate in the interchange with other humans because I also believe that this is what we are here to do. I tend to get a bit philosophical when responding (surprise! ), but I truly don't want fit life into my or anyone's philosophy, so that's why I appreciate being able to connect to you, another human and talk about this.

 

So your need to feel wanted sexually by your wife is a real need. The part of the wanting her to want you is what I was mostly directing the response. In my experience, there is suffering in us wanting things from others and Wholy believing this is the only way these needs can be satisfied. I mean, it is a catch-22, isn't it? That's what brought you here in the first place. You want her to want you, and she is not appearing to be showing that, or at least not to the degree that you would feel satisfied. If it was me, I'd first work on the feeling of inner security and inner love, and then see what my shift would cause in the other. Because in so many surprising ways, the more I've shifted, the more people have on their own terms shifted and provided me with what I have needed on their own! And I will not lie, sometimes I'd get impatient and tell them what I want, but if I am completely honest, at that point it is because I am lost in my thoughts and reactive and want to make them do something on my terms. One is control, the other is letting go and trusting it will happen.

 

I am so sorry that you've gone through what you have in the sexual R with the your W. That just sounds excruciating, and though you've expressed that things go in fits and bursts, and are not black and white, and there have been glimmers of hope, I know I wouldn't have been as patient as you have.. At the same time I empathize with your W too, since she clearly has been in her own nightmare, and whatever made her so reluctant to face it is really torturing her too, even though she doesn't consciously see that. You mentioned one time that her mom and sisters are her only close friends. That is very telling also. She is literally fighting to keep her secret covered, and you as her H have not been able to help. Not that it is your responsibility, as many have said, she has a responsibility for healing herself, and it is very unfortunate that she is not being honest with herself about this.

 

Have you heard of the I-ching, the Chinese book of changes? It is a fascinating piece of writing. Depending on translations though it varies a lot, so let me know if you'd like to know the edition I really enjoy and will share it with you. In that book there is very specific advice regarding all kinds of situations. Because I have had difficulties letting go when growing up, I usually find the most wisdom in their advice on how to really release and Trust, but you may find other inspiration there in terms of becoming more assertive without being overly so. That's the thing that's so interesting, though for instance I have been assertive in general regarding Rs, so I may not be fully walking in your shoes as to what you've gone through, I do feel the interconnectedness. I feel that we are a lot more similar than different. Seeing those similarities that you have with your W may really be of value.

 

Nick,

 

I want to thank you for sharing the way you have been in this thread. It has resulted in me reflecting back and looking deeper within, which is something I avoid at times. This weekend was a good inward weekend and to have the conversation to spark some stuff has been helpful! I have also enjoyed the responses, so many people here who are eager to share their quite intense experiences for the purpose of learning. Trippi, I loved what you said about true intimacy!

Really nice to hear this is having some impact beyond what I'm looking for!

First I want to say that the things I have been writing you do take time, for it is a whole spiritual awakening I am alluding to. A few years ago I had a bomb explode in me (love that analogy!) and it became quite clear that I would never be able to put back the pieces the way they were before, and like you, I didn't want to anyway. But this process, the process you seem to be going through, is similar, and it is so non linear that at times becomes futile to try to pinpoint it. But it is real. Like you, I do creative work, and have undeniably experienced the letting go there, it has shifted my work tremendously because of it. I have also experienced big changes in virtually all my relationships (friends and family included), changes that though sometimes feel tenuous, are nevertheless very profound and lasting.

Does sound similar in many ways, and thank you for letting me know that. Yes, that's where I've been able to let go the most, in my creative work. Though I have experienced it elsewhere as well. Just never really in the context of my marriage.

The only thing I would rake you over coals with is what took you so long to really address these deep things with your W? An A is certainly the avoidant way to address this, and the betrayal of trust is brutal, but the underlying issues in your particular case were so intense that I honestly can't quite fathom HOW you actually went on for as long as you did. And the two years of no sex in the beginning? That sounds absolutely heartbreaking, and it feels like the learned helplessness that you probably developed as a result of the trauma has skewed your perspective all these years. I trust you didn't exaggerate that part, and if you didn't,what actually changed after enough for you to have some sex life and have kids? Something must have.

I think you answered the first question you asked by citing learned helplessness. I know all about that in relation to abuse, addiction, etc. Just never applied it to myself until you said it. I used to have a real problem with assertion & aggression of any kind - even the healthy kind. And I'd sublimate that in unhealthy ways, which did no go to me, my wife or our marriage. No, sadly I did not exaggerate the no sex for two years. It's hard for me to remember what changed, except that somewhere in my head I said, "I'm almost 26 and a virgin. I need to end that now." And despite my wife's continued discomfort (to this day), I forged ahead - with her agreement & blessing - and we pushed through. After that it was & has never been any more relaxed or looser, but we were able to develop some degree of a sex life. In painful fits & starts, and with hardly any verbal communication (she doesn't like to talk about "that stuff"). Also during those two years, she insisted we tell no one & ask no one for help. It was a lonely time, as have been many years.

And the needing vs. wanting. I have a different view on this. Both the needs and the wants are based on our belief that there is something that we are lacking inherently and that we can get from another. Even wanting to be loved is essentially a want too. It is an extremely deep want, probably programmed in our DNA, and for the longest time I believed that this want was completely unavoidable, understandable, and I would be justified in spending my life finding ways to fulfill that want. But what appears is that love doesn't work that way. The love people give us never seems ultimately enough. There is always something missing. Because that love can never be as satiating as the love that comes from within.

You have felt starved for love from your W. What if instead you have been starving yourself from that love?

I don't quite see it as that black & white. I do firmly believe we need to love and like ourselves in order to be open to others, and that no amount of what we get from others will fill a hole that's missing self-love & self-respect. However, I also firmly believe in the interconnectedness of everyone, and that the true purpose of our time on this earth is to strengthen connections & bonds in healthy ways. Part of that is exchanging, sharing, answering needs, receiving needs, etc. And that no matter how self-fulfilled we might be, it's the rare person who can exist without forms of fulfillment from others. There's certainly many lines on many levels, and many unhealthy and healthy ways to go about this, but that to me is part of life's journey. That combination of giving yourself what you need, and being open to giving & receiving to others, which entails being vulnerable to needs on both sides.

[trippi1432]

First I want to say that the things I have been writing you do take time, for it is a whole spiritual awakening I am alluding to. A few years ago I had a bomb explode in me (love that analogy!) and it became quite clear that I would never be able to put back the pieces the way they were before, and like you, I didn't want to anyway. But this process, the process you seem to be going through, is similar, and it is so non linear that at times becomes futile to try to pinpoint it. But it is real. Like you, I do creative work, and have undeniably experienced the letting go there, it has shifted my work tremendously because of it. I have also experienced big changes in virtually all my relationships (friends and family included), changes that though sometimes feel tenuous, are nevertheless very profound and lasting.

 

The only thing I would rake you over coals with is what took you so long to really address these deep things with your W? An A is certainly the avoidant way to address this, and the betrayal of trust is brutal, but the underlying issues in your particular case were so intense that I honestly can't quite fathom HOW you actually went on for as long as you did. And the two years of no sex in the beginning? That sounds absolutely heartbreaking, and it feels like the learned helplessness that you probably developed as a result of the trauma has skewed your perspective all these years. I trust you didn't exaggerate that part, and if you didn't,what actually changed after enough for you to have some sex life and have kids? Something must have.

 

And the needing vs. wanting. I have a different view on this. Both the needs and the wants are based on our belief that there is something that we are lacking inherently and that we can get from another. Even wanting to be loved is essentially a want too. It is an extremely deep want, probably programmed in our DNA, and for the longest time I believed that this want was completely unavoidable, understandable, and I would be justified in spending my life finding ways to fulfill that want. But what appears is that love doesn't work that way. The love people give us never seems ultimately enough. There is always something missing. Because that love can never be as satiating as the love that comes from within.

 

You have felt starved for love from your W. What if instead you have been starving yourself from that love?

 

This truly is insightful that because it does show that we need to be able to make ourselves happy and be responsible for our own happiness before we can provide that to another. It's not always the fault of the spouse that a person isn't happy in a marriage...there can be other underlying issues on the part of one spouse or both that add to the missing element.

 

In addition, it's not always the cheated on spouse and/or the person who cheated that gets affected in affairs...especially those that are very emotionally connected to begin with. Lovingwhatis...I've read your posts on the OW/OM threads and I am assuming you were an AP which may have began this soul-searching for you...is that correct? Perhaps you can share some insight into that perspective...not calling you out, but putting it into perspective that many people get hurt in affairs.

 

trippi, that's a great way to describe being wanted. I know that I miss the emotional wanting as much as I do the physical. Prior to the last six months, we could go days & weeks without so much as a real conversation or a peck on the cheek, while fulfilling each other's "needs" without too much issue. I began to feel like I had become the caretaker of the house & kids, and that whatever companionship we had was getting lost more & more every day. In fact, the only time it seemed she wanted me badly enough to reach out was during a crisis. The icing on that cake for me was when I'd repeatedly try to draw her out from wherever she was "hiding" by telling her point blank I wasn't doing well, I was lonely, we need to talk more often, etc. And that would be met with an "I hear you", followed by weeks & months of overwork & no action.

 

I agree that the physical follows from the emotional. My wife has been very open & clear about this. I could see why she'd start to pull away more from me, since the last year before my EA/PA I was not the most patient & understanding person regarding her job. And yet even when we were connecting emotionally, things would only get so far, both in conversation & physical intimacy. We had a great getaway trip last May for four nights. We really connected in every way. But I contend to this day that it was in large part because she forgot her Blackberry charger & had no access to work emails. Even then there'd be hours when she was on the phone, but it was much much less than a usual "day off". Part of me looks back fondly on that trip. The other part hurts, knowing that it only really happened that way because of the Blackberry issue.[/Quote]

 

Nick - the ability to recall that moment when there was more contentment because she had to leave her job behind is a great memory to recall....but every day life is not a vacation. Something that I learned in Divorce Busters, you do the laundry, it's laundry, it must be done.....you mow the yard, it has to be mowed.....you do your job, it has to be done. It's the reality of your real life and responsibilities that leave us disgruntled when we get back home. Holding in hurt that the vacation was only good because she didn't have the charger is like saying that you can't truly look back on it fondly. Or, to put it another way, harboring that every day life can't be as good as that vacation just leads to perceived dissatisfaction that festers...and continues until you have an affair...as is what happened in this case. Have you reminded your wife of how content it was when the two of you were on vacation and she wasn't working? In what way did you state that to her if you did?

 

What I had with my AP (does that mean the woman I had an affair with? I'm not up on all the abbreviations!) was both emotional & physical. We found we connected on many levels. She would actually answer my emails & texts - something my wife does hardly ever to this day. Her effort to talk to & connect with me was constant. She would listen to my concerns with patience & try to help work them out. She'd ask to go to a movie or just hang out with me. Even after we quit the physical part, she still wanted to hang with me. No question the sexual was a big part, especially for that one-week period, but it was because we connected emotionally first.

 

All of these feelings are because there was no pressure, no children to take care of, no home to run....etc...for either of you. You could be as involved or as uninvolved as you wanted to be. It was freedom from having any responsibilities other than getting your desires met...with no commitment of having to take responsibility for another's happiness.

 

My wife can still go days without returning emails or phone calls, and it's been that way for years. Difficult job notwithstanding, I can't understand why she'd choose to just skip over my reaching out to her. It's as though I just don't rank in her mind in comparison to work. In fact, other than a handful of true responses - which feel like emotional gold to me - the only time she consistently answers my emails or calls is when it's about the kids. Again, I know deep down she does want me to some large degree, but it so seldom is a priority or reality for her/us that that "deep down" just doesn't matter.

 

Assumptions and rationalizations....I don't matter to her....I will get my needs met another way......still in the affair fog.

 

Having said that, she's been better since the infidelity. She still hardly ever answers calls or emails, but when she does it's with more kindness & concern, and with the sense that she's actually listening to & considering what I'm saying/asking. Unless, that is, she's preoccupied with work, which can be both in and out of the office. Then it's like I'm barely even there.

 

Still rationalizing......

 

I think our talks are helping to repair some of the disconnection. But I'm not at the point yet where I'm hopeful that old patterns will change.

 

My exH thought the same thing...the whole time we were supposed to be working on it. I never got a chance to work on it because he wouldn't talk to me about what he expected to change...he told me on the day he walked out leaving a wake of damage behind in hatefulness and spite. I was just supposed to know...after all, he did me a "favor" by coming back in the first place...or did he? Not attacking you, just giving you a different perspective.

 

So your need to feel wanted sexually by your wife is a real need. The part of the wanting her to want you is what I was mostly directing the response. In my experience, there is suffering in us wanting things from others and Wholy believing this is the only way these needs can be satisfied. I mean, it is a catch-22, isn't it? That's what brought you here in the first place. You want her to want you, and she is not appearing to be showing that, or at least not to the degree that you would feel satisfied. If it was me, I'd first work on the feeling of inner security and inner love, and then see what my shift would cause in the other. Because in so many surprising ways, the more I've shifted, the more people have on their own terms shifted and provided me with what I have needed on their own!

 

I paid good money for that advice Lovingwhatis....shame you didn't post that two years ago.

 

And I will not lie, sometimes I'd get impatient and tell them what I want, but if I am completely honest, at that point it is because I am lost in my thoughts and reactive and want to make them do something on my terms. One is control, the other is letting go and trusting it will happen.[/Quote]

 

Very informative and good advice.....taking that and putting it in my things to remember. Thank you for that Lovingwhatis.

[NickFeek]

That's what I mean, the last paragraph really sent me thinking about how I relate to my wants and needs! Really helpful. I guess I should have not gone as far as putting the needs in the same sentence as wants in terms of what we can provide for ourselves. Yes, we have needs, and they are not imaginary, and yes a need for belonging and for affection is not to be brushed aside as not having validity or that it can be fully fulfilled from within. Trust me, I am not antisocial, and I strongly participate in the interchange with other humans because I also believe that this is what we are here to do. I tend to get a bit philosophical when responding (surprise! ), but I truly don't want fit life into my or anyone's philosophy, so that's why I appreciate being able to connect to you, another human and talk about this.

I can tell you're not antisocial, else you'd never have entered into such a great back-and-forth here. Nothing wrong with waxing philosophical. There are many levels to consider.

So your need to feel wanted sexually by your wife is a real need. The part of the wanting her to want you is what I was mostly directing the response. In my experience, there is suffering in us wanting things from others and Wholy believing this is the only way these needs can be satisfied. I mean, it is a catch-22, isn't it? That's what brought you here in the first place. You want her to want you, and she is not appearing to be showing that, or at least not to the degree that you would feel satisfied. If it was me, I'd first work on the feeling of inner security and inner love, and then see what my shift would cause in the other. Because in so many surprising ways, the more I've shifted, the more people have on their own terms shifted and provided me with what I have needed on their own! And I will not lie, sometimes I'd get impatient and tell them what I want, but if I am completely honest, at that point it is because I am lost in my thoughts and reactive and want to make them do something on my terms. One is control, the other is letting go and trusting it will happen.

Well the good/bad thing is that, because of my infidelity, sex is off the table for a legitimate reason. So that should shift focus for both of us onto emotional needs, which if we do that well will build a more solid bond & foundation than before, and lead to better sex when the time is right. Of course, the sex part will be an uphill climb as well, but you're right that first things first!

I am so sorry that you've gone through what you have in the sexual R with the your W. That just sounds excruciating, and though you've expressed that things go in fits and bursts, and are not black and white, and there have been glimmers of hope, I know I wouldn't have been as patient as you have.. At the same time I empathize with your W too, since she clearly has been in her own nightmare, and whatever made her so reluctant to face it is really torturing her too, even though she doesn't consciously see that. You mentioned one time that her mom and sisters are her only close friends. That is very telling also. She is literally fighting to keep her secret covered, and you as her H have not been able to help. Not that it is your responsibility, as many have said, she has a responsibility for healing herself, and it is very unfortunate that she is not being honest with herself about this.

I couldn't agree more, and the essence of that paragraph is what has caused me A. to stay, and B. to feel so sad for her AND me. It also caused a ton of anxiety/panic attacks in the 90s. This is ALSO why I feel marriage counseling is SO necessary, and it's so tragic that she can't go where we need her to in any venue.

Have you heard of the I-ching, the Chinese book of changes? It is a fascinating piece of writing. Depending on translations though it varies a lot, so let me know if you'd like to know the edition I really enjoy and will share it with you. In that book there is very specific advice regarding all kinds of situations. Because I have had difficulties letting go when growing up, I usually find the most wisdom in their advice on how to really release and Trust, but you may find other inspiration there in terms of becoming more assertive without being overly so. That's the thing that's so interesting, though for instance I have been assertive in general regarding Rs, so I may not be fully walking in your shoes as to what you've gone through, I do feel the interconnectedness. I feel that we are a lot more similar than different. Seeing those similarities that you have with your W may really be of value.

I've read the I-ching! Have it on my iPhone actually. I have told my wife quite often that, though we seem to be at odds, if someone were to listen in from the outside they'd find our worries & complaints to be extremely similar. That doesn't necessarily make things easier, and in fact can make them harder - like two identical puzzle pieces that will only really fit with their mirror. But it does manage to forge a bit of a bond between us while we're working on things.

[NickFeek]

Nick - the ability to recall that moment when there was more contentment because she had to leave her job behind is a great memory to recall....but every day life is not a vacation. Something that I learned in Divorce Busters, you do the laundry, it's laundry, it must be done.....you mow the yard, it has to be mowed.....you do your job, it has to be done. It's the reality of your real life and responsibilities that leave us disgruntled when we get back home. Holding in hurt that the vacation was only good because she didn't have the charger is like saying that you can't truly look back on it fondly. Or, to put it another way, harboring that every day life can't be as good as that vacation just leads to perceived dissatisfaction that festers...and continues until you have an affair...as is what happened in this case. Have you reminded your wife of how content it was when the two of you were on vacation and she wasn't working? In what way did you state that to her if you did?

I wouldn't say it's hurt I'm holding. I look back on that weekend & feel great about it. But it comes with two caveats. One is I've been on vacations with her when her Blackberry WAS charged, and they are incredibly different - her focus is divided almost all the time. Two is similar to what you're saying but from the flip side. You can't save all the good times for a vacation. You need to be able to intersperse all that drudgery with little good moments, something we stopped doing a very long time ago. We actually have done that more in the last six months, but that's counterbalanced by the really awful moments that are expected during this recovery.

 

All of these feelings are because there was no pressure, no children to take care of, no home to run....etc...for either of you. You could be as involved or as uninvolved as you wanted to be. It was freedom from having any responsibilities other than getting your desires met...with no commitment of having to take responsibility for another's happiness.

 

Assumptions and rationalizations....I don't matter to her....I will get my needs met another way......still in the affair fog.

 

Still rationalizing......

I guess that's true (??). Being still in that fog I guess I can't really see what you're saying. What I feel it is I'm saying there is that I'm going to stand up for myself no matter what happens, and while doing that am also going to do my best to give her what she wants. But I do agree that part of my mind is working on "escape clause" mode.

 

My exH thought the same thing...the whole time we were supposed to be working on it. I never got a chance to work on it because he wouldn't talk to me about what he expected to change...he told me on the day he walked out leaving a wake of damage behind in hatefulness and spite. I was just supposed to know...after all, he did me a "favor" by coming back in the first place...or did he? Not attacking you, just giving you a different perspective.

Oh no, no attack at all. We have been talking about what we need from each other, what we were missing, etc. And I intend to make that talk more specific next time we're alone. Definitely will not just jump ship without connecting as much as possible with her to sort all this out.