25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[soserious1]

if you take the money she earns () out of the equation - what is it she is offering to him as a wife?

 

no intimacy

no participation

no connection

no sex

no time together

 

what is it she has offered?

 

money is beside the point... IF he's staying because she earns money - then he needs to get out there and earn more of his own... so he can easily support himself and his kids in order to NOT feel at the mercy of needing his wife's money - but getting short changed on living; and short changed on being married to a wife that actually acts as if she intends to be IN the marriage.

 

 

Money is not "beside the point" when it's paying to put shoe's on the OP's feet and a roof over his head... I'm also betting if the OP posted here about how his wife didn't work enough and he & the kids were going without you'd be blasting her for that too.

 

 

You don't marry a lawyer expecting them to work 40 hour weeks, lawyers have to work killer hours, he knew going in what the work deal would be & I'd bet he hasn't a problem in the world with spending her paycheck. I know my cheating ex husband sure didn't!

 

Sorry but if the OP is unhappy, OP should have filed for a divorce instead of cheating. I was deeply unhappy in my marriage but I made my unhappiness known and when no change happened, I filed for divorce, I didn't cheat.

[2sunny]

so - to answer the original question to this thread = yes!

[soserious1]

so - to answer the original question to this thread = yes!

 

yeah.. on grounds of adultery

[dreamingoftigers]

Don't expect an instant change from or though or even an instant response.

 

Expect things to be really rocky for at least 18 months. Don't just do a premature cut and run.

[NickFeek]

Wow, I barely know where to start. Lots of posts to catch up on. I'll try to distill to the essentials:

 

OLIVEOYL

There are definitely strong points in our relationship, and always have been. We are great friends. We are supportive of each other for the most part. We have always had chemistry. We love our kids and have an extremely similar parenting approach.

 

I do hear what you're saying about accumulated time not being the big issue. We need to see how things are now, what we want them to be like, and move from there regardless of history. BUT history will always play a part because we basically grew up together from the age of 17. Bottom line is if I knew exactly what I wanted I probably wouldn't be on this website. That's what's been great - getting so many opinions from both sides.

 

SOSERIOUS

A marriage is a partnership that has many crucial facets, money being one. This family would not be intact without my child care, bookkeeping, chores, errands, etc. All the things she has less time to do because she's earning 3/4 of the money. Neither is more important. And it's not about punishment, it's about coming to a middle ground where we both realize we've both been suffering.

 

2SUNNY

Something IS broken in her. I've been attempting for years to find it & help her repair it, but the walls are many & thick. And I agree that both a short-term infidelity and a long-term avoiding of intimacy are bad things.

 

I'm working today, so I don't have tons of time, but I'm going to look over that formula for sure. Thanks.

 

SOSERIOUS AND 2SUNNY

I already earn enough money to support myself, so that's not the issue. No, I couldn't support three kids on my income, but that's typical in today's economy, and it's what a partnership is all about. I have told her repeatedly that we could easily survive & do well even if she were making less money in a less stressful job. I'd rather sacrifice some luxuries and have more time with her. She just doesn't believe it, thinks she's trapped, and that's the end of story for her.

 

I did not marry a lawyer. I married my high school sweetheart. I fell in love with her long before she decided to become a lawyer. I saw her work hours go from normal to insane with every single job she's ever taken. And while it's true that lawyers work more than most people, there are plenty of other attorneys in her department who DON'T work until 9pm every night. It's a question of balance, and hers is out of whack.

 

I told her for two years how unhappy I was, and she made very little effort to change anything. I don't excuse my cheating, and I feel guilty about it every day, but it came from somewhere.

 

Oh, and believe me she & I spend (and save) equally, so it's not a question of having a sugar mama.

 

DREAMINGOFTIGERS

You're right. Recovery for her especially will take time. I don't intend to cut & run prematurely. What I do need is some indication that through all her efforts to recover from my awful behavior/betrayal, she is also acknowledging all the aspects of our marriage that need to be worked on, and is incorporating that into our efforts to make things better. It can only be about the cheating for so long, and I guess 18 months sounds reasonable.

 

--Appreciate everyone's comments here. And I don't disagree with your anger & distaste, SOSERIOUS. I just think while individual behaviors may be black & white, our entire picture is a big gray mess.

[tojaz]

I told her for two years how unhappy I was, and she made very little effort to change anything.

 

How/What did you tell her???

[NickFeek]

It varied quite a bit. Some were vague statements like "I'm not doing well." "I really need you to help." "I'm unhappy." Others were more specific like "We can't continue with a schedule like this." "I really need you to work on changing your work situation." "The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." "You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." "Can't you delegate more of your work?" "We never have any private time together." "What can I do to help?" I could list another 30 at least.

 

Of course, as the months wore on, some of the comments went from even-tempered to frustrated, angry & accusatory - which I admit did not help matters, and may have further pushed her inward. But I'm still stumped as to what's going on with her that she could just trudge on knowing how unhappy I was without wanting to jump in and change things.

[dreamingoftigers]

It varied quite a bit. Some were vague statements like "I'm not doing well." "I really need you to help." "I'm unhappy." Others were more specific like "We can't continue with a schedule like this." "I really need you to work on changing your work situation." "The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." "You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." "Can't you delegate more of your work?" "We never have any private time together." "What can I do to help?" I could list another 30 at least.

 

Of course, as the months wore on, some of the comments went from even-tempered to frustrated, angry & accusatory - which I admit did not help matters, and may have further pushed her inward. But I'm still stumped as to what's going on with her that she could just trudge on knowing how unhappy I was without wanting to jump in and change things.

 

OMG, you are a woman LOL

 

Just kidding, you do realize that you gave her a list of hints and things that are wrong without saying: I need X and Y because of Z.

 

Concrete man! Our spouses don't read minds.

 

You say "cut back" and she comes home 15 minutes earlier and thinks, "whew that was a big sacrifice" meanwhile you are thinking, "when is she going to cut back?"

 

Furthermore, your list sounds like venting. We all know how much stock we put into our spouse's venting.

 

An example of concrete:

 

I need us to have a date night once per week, preferably Friday, I can book a sitter because the emotional disconnect that has happened in our marriage needs to be rectified, I feel isolated and alone. Now what do we need in order for this to happen?"

 

You never get what you want by continually describing what you don't want. Could you imagine trying to pick paint samples that way?

[NickFeek]

OMG, you are a woman LOL

No, you're right! Everything I've read & heard from friends etc. corresponds with my complaints being much more like a mom's. There's some definite role reversal in parts of our marriage.

 

Just kidding, you do realize that you gave her a list of hints and things that are wrong without saying: I need X and Y because of Z.

 

Concrete man! Our spouses don't read minds.

 

You say "cut back" and she comes home 15 minutes earlier and thinks, "whew that was a big sacrifice" meanwhile you are thinking, "when is she going to cut back?"

I agree, and I think that was part of the problem. Our conversations since my cheating have been more concrete, though we still need to go further in that direction.

 

Furthermore, your list sounds like venting. We all know how much stock we put into our spouse's venting.

 

An example of concrete:

 

I need us to have a date night once per week, preferably Friday, I can book a sitter because the emotional disconnect that has happened in our marriage needs to be rectified, I feel isolated and alone. Now what do we need in order for this to happen?"

 

You never get what you want by continually describing what you don't want. Could you imagine trying to pick paint samples that way?

That's a great example, and I love that paint analogy. We'll be going out without the kids this weekend - the 25th anniversary of our first date - and I plan to be specific just like that. Now I should also say that I have been specific in the past & it hasn't really changed anything. I'm hoping our new, dire situation will make things different in her mind.

 

I'll also say that she has made some effort to change, but it's never lasted long. She switched departments at work - a big change for her she debated for months. It was supposed to be a less labor-intensive job, but her hours have only gotten worse. She then came home two months ago & said she'd talked to a colleague of hers who has three kids, and she and her husband worked out a deal where she gets home earlier two nights a week to cook dinner so the whole family can be together, and he does the other three. It's worked well for them. My wife said "I want to do that." First night, she was 30-60 minutes later than she said she'd be - the kids were getting very hungry so I cooked. But at least we ate together. The second night ... There WAS no second night, or second week or second month. That experiment was over before it started.

 

She has told me many times that she believes her sacrifice is she doesn't work weekends anymore. And that she gets home an hour earlier 3-4 times a month so I can do my other work or go out with friends.

 

I need to do or say something drastic to make her understand how crucial it is that she starts to DO and not just to have good intentions.

[dreamingoftigers]

You know what Nick, I am going to be a little more brutral about this.

 

This is also post 3600 for me, so lucky you hitting a milestone with me.

 

"I'm not doing well." What does that mean? How does that tell her what you need from her?

 

"I really need you to help." Help with what? When? Where? How?

 

"I'm unhappy." So are half of the population, she might be thinking you are going to schedule an appointment with your GP for anti-depressants.

 

"We can't continue with a schedule like this." What needs to change? Why? When? and How?

 

"I really need you to work on changing your work situation." This is relative, you are using relative terms and they are not going to get you what you want. People suck at understanding and applying relative terms in relationships.

 

"The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." This isn't your marriage talking and it sounds a little guilt-trippy.

 

"You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." Meanwhile this seems like you are trivializing the work she does. Sorry dude, I've been through this cycle. My husband used to say "You just work all the time." Why yes, yes I do, thank you, I love that I am proud to provide for our family. That isn't a flaw. I couldn't see what he was getting at, it just seemed like a criticism.

 

"Can't you delegate more of your work?" See above.

 

"We never have any private time together." 'Always' and 'never' are great ways to kill any co-operation.

 

"What can I do to help?" This is good.

 

Truth be told, you are vague and she is avoidant. One of you has to change your communication style. She isn't posting on LS, that only leaves one person... Wonder Woman... oh no wait, she's out of town. Looks like it falls on you.

 

Formula:

 

1. "Is it a good time to have a small discussion?"

 

a) yes ---->proceed

b) not now ------>well what time in the next 48 hours is? proceed at that scheduled time

 

2. "I just want to say that I really appreciate __________ about you. I really do."

 

3. "I need to see X and Y because I feel Z, it is pretty important to me, what is your take on it?"

 

4. "Uh-huh, so what can we do to lessen/avoid that obstacle so that X/Y still can happen, or even partially happen."

 

5. "You sound like you are feeling _________, did I get that right?"

 

Then you brainstorm. It feel labour-intensive at first, and it is. Just stick with it and drill the steps into your head.

 

I find that a spouse will only be able to complete 80% of what they agree to at first. Baby steps, she isn't going to cut back to 40 hours a week and bang you all kinky in the next month.

 

"I need to see X and Y because I feel Z."

"What can we do to get there."

[OliveOyl]

From what you've posted, I don't think your wife will make any lasting changes unless you actually let her know the marriage is on the line. I mean really, seriously. And even then, she might not. I don't think ultimatums work; it's more a case of your finally deciding you want something different and THEN maybe ... MAYBE she might come around. But you can't take actions, expecting her to change.

 

These patterns of hers are deeply ingrained; she is addicted to her work. Can she change? Yes but you can't count on it, just like I wouldn't count on an alcoholic changing until they hit rock bottom. No, I am NOT comparing your wife to an alcoholic... far from it.. just that the grooves of her habit patterns are probably equally as deep, so you're really fighting an uphill battle, in my opinion.

 

You said you are great friends. Is that really enough? I can be friends - great friends even - with a handful of people. I will only be a lover with one.

 

I don't mean to be blunt, but if things continue on exactly as they have been, I foresee another affair in the future - maybe for her.

 

A book I highly recommend reading is Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum. It helped me immensely during the time that I took deciding whether to stay in my marriage.

[NickFeek]

Wow, 3600 in just over a year. That's impressive!

 

I agree with all that, and that's why it wasn't working. You hit it on the head that she avoids and I am too vague. I need to step up not sit back.

 

I'll also say that our communication has been very different since my infidelity. In fact it's much more followed the formula you laid out. We've done #1 several times. We've both done #2 several times. #3 has been harder, but we've done that too. #4 we are NOT there. We have done #5 now & then.

 

But there are days/nights when she is SO enraged by what I did that some parts of a rational conversation just can't happen. Others can & do, but at least 5-6 times now since November she has been so blinded with rage that she's confessed she just wants to hit me (and did do that once). I know she needs to vent & process the hurt & anger, and I know she regrets the outbursts. What I don't know is how long before episodes like that subside, or do they ever?

 

I did not handle myself well for a good 3-4 months last year, including the one-week affair. And I was too berating & complaining for a good year or more before that. I know I deserve whatever negative she throws my way. I just believe there has to be some kind of time limit to that for us to move on. For us to dive into ALL the issues. I won't push it or dictate that to her, because I'm not in her head & don't know how terrible she feels, but if after a certain amount of time she's still stuck in the same place, and won't go to counseling, I'm not sure there's anything else I can do.

[dreamingoftigers]

OMG, you are a woman LOL

No, you're right! Everything I've read & heard from friends etc. corresponds with my complaints being much more like a mom's. There's some definite role reversal in parts of our marriage.

 

There is somewhat of a role-reversal in our marriage too. But as I became a healthier person I found that I correspond more to my gender's reactions.

 

I agree, and I think that was part of the problem. Our conversations since my cheating have been more concrete, though we still need to go further in that direction.

 

You did get the funny little side-effect from the cheating that no one ever likes to talk about, it gave you some confidence and enough so that you can address your wife because if everything goes completely to Hell, you know that you still have options, whereas without cheating it remains a question mark.

 

You never get what you want by continually describing what you don't want. Could you imagine trying to pick paint samples that way?

That's a great example, and I love that paint analogy. We'll be going out without the kids this weekend - the 25th anniversary of our first date - and I plan to be specific just like that. Now I should also say that I have been specific in the past & it hasn't really changed anything. I'm hoping our new, dire situation will make things different in her mind.

Warning: you are trying to illicit the wrong emotion here: fear and/or desperation. Most spouses who have held most of the cards don't respond well to it, it's a good way to get emotionally thrashed so that you become that scared and desperate one. Do not try to upset the apple cart. Esp. to a woman. I have seen so many young and old guys try this trick on LS and they can't figure out why they are on the receiving end of a boot mark on their arse on the front step. Then the Testosterone Support Squad comes in saying that she was "done a long time ago."

 

You don't **** with a woman's security to get her attention. That is a get a guy's attention thing to do. The infidelity would have already done that enough anyways.

 

Here is what you do: you stay friendly, open, upbeat, loving and hopeful. You also stay damned consistent. Don't say that you have, because if you had then your weak boundaries wouldn't have had the Irish Jig danced on them.

 

Check out Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting. Get your boundaries in place and pull back but be friendly, positive and upbeat. This will take some time and consistency.

 

I'll also say that she has made some effort to change, but it's never lasted long.

 

And whose boundaries caved? And who praised her and showered her with affection etc. when she cut back? There is a piece missing here.

 

As well: The Five Love Languages, clearly the styles aren't matching up.

 

She switched departments at work - a big change for her she debated for months. It was supposed to be a less labor-intensive job, but her hours have only gotten worse. She then came home two months ago & said she'd talked to a colleague of hers who has three kids, and she and her husband worked out a deal where she gets home earlier two nights a week to cook dinner so the whole family can be together, and he does the other three. It's worked well for them. My wife said "I want to do that." First night, she was 30-60 minutes later than she said she'd be - the kids were getting very hungry so I cooked. But at least we ate together. The second night ... There WAS no second night, or second week or second month. That experiment was over before it started.

 

And who ignored or nagged? I bet I can guess..... that damn Wonder Woman...

 

She has told me many times that she believes her sacrifice is she doesn't work weekends anymore. And that she gets home an hour earlier 3-4 times a month so I can do my other work or go out with friends.

 

If it's not enough, you need to 1. Locate balls 2. Confirm balls are still in place/intact 3. Use balls and say that it is not working for you like this. 4. Remove hand from pants, go in the other room and tell her the same thing.

 

Or you could just tell her and skip steps 1-3

 

I need to do or say something drastic to make her understand how crucial it is that she starts to DO and not just to have good intentions.

 

Male line of thought. I swear, I had a male roomate for 6 years, I would half-assedly keep the house cleaned once a week. He would sandblast the place once every six months or so and clean it top to bottom and then bitch at me about how he has to do "so much cleaning and why didn't I do anything." Tried pointing out that I did the regular upkeep, he would say "but it isn't fully clean, look at tha door ledges." arg.

 

Start with something small and work your way gradually. Just keep enforcing the small stuff. If you marriage improves 1% per week, then in two years you have a completely new marriage.

 

You will see change quicker and better then that if you do the changes and hold to your boundaries.

[NickFeek]

From what you've posted, I don't think your wife will make any lasting changes unless you actually let her know the marriage is on the line. I mean really, seriously. And even then, she might not. I don't think ultimatums work; it's more a case of your finally deciding you want something different and THEN maybe ... MAYBE she might come around. But you can't take actions, expecting her to change.

I think you're right. I asked a friend last night if he thinks it's a good idea for me to propose separation. He said it's too soon for that, but that I DO need to make it clear how seriously we are in trouble.

These patterns of hers are deeply ingrained; she is addicted to her work. Can she change? Yes but you can't count on it, just like I wouldn't count on an alcoholic changing until they hit rock bottom. No, I am NOT comparing your wife to an alcoholic... far from it.. just that the grooves of her habit patterns are probably equally as deep, so you're really fighting an uphill battle, in my opinion.

Absolutely true, and I've been fighting it since 1993!

You said you are great friends. Is that really enough? I can be friends - great friends even - with a handful of people. I will only be a lover with one.

No it's not enough, and that's what started to drive me so crazy & make me feel so lonely. It does help us to get through tough times, and to parent our kids well, but it's not enough at all. I have a handful of very good friends, and can get that kind of fulfillment many places. The things I can (or should) only get from a marriage are the things I'm missing.

I don't mean to be blunt, but if things continue on exactly as they have been, I foresee another affair in the future - maybe for her.

I doubt she'd ever have an affair. She is just too disconnected to her physical body to ever contemplate it. And I made a promise I would never have one again, and I am fully capable of keeping that. My biggest concern is that we don't revert to old patterns out of comfort/safety. THAT might prompt an affair. So if we can avoid that by DOING & CHANGING, whatever the outcome we'll be on the up & up.

A book I highly recommend reading is Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum. It helped me immensely during the time that I took deciding whether to stay in my marriage.

I'll look it up. Thanks! Ironically, my wife got me a book for Christmas that helped me a ton, called 5 Love Languages. I read it cover to cover & found out a lot, gleaned many concrete ways we can work on things. She has not read more than the first chapter. I think it's telling that she got the book, but only I read it.

[NickFeek]

Male line of thought. I swear, I had a male roomate for 6 years, I would half-assedly keep the house cleaned once a week. He would sandblast the place once every six months or so and clean it top to bottom and then bitch at me about how he has to do "so much cleaning and why didn't I do anything." Tried pointing out that I did the regular upkeep, he would say "but it isn't fully clean, look at tha door ledges." arg.

That's really funny because I'm the one who does the day to day around here, and my wife does the once a week sandblasting, and complains about it. It seems fair to me, but who knows.

Start with something small and work your way gradually. Just keep enforcing the small stuff. If you marriage improves 1% per week, then in two years you have a completely new marriage.

I like that idea. Just don't want to run the risk of 1% a week becoming 0.5% a month and calling that satisfactory change. Gradual can be healthy & workable, but it's a slippery slope.

[dreamingoftigers]

Wow, 3600 in just over a year. That's impressive!

 

I agree with all that, and that's why it wasn't working. You hit it on the head that she avoids and I am too vague. I need to step up not sit back.

 

I'll also say that our communication has been very different since my infidelity. In fact it's much more followed the formula you laid out. We've done #1 several times. We've both done #2 several times. #3 has been harder, but we've done that too. #4 we are NOT there. We have done #5 now & then.

 

But there are days/nights when she is SO enraged by what I did that some parts of a rational conversation just can't happen. Others can & do, but at least 5-6 times now since November she has been so blinded with rage that she's confessed she just wants to hit me (and did do that once). I know she needs to vent & process the hurt & anger, and I know she regrets the outbursts. What I don't know is how long before episodes like that subside, or do they ever?

 

I did not handle myself well for a good 3-4 months last year, including the one-week affair. And I was too berating & complaining for a good year or more before that. I know I deserve whatever negative she throws my way. I just believe there has to be some kind of time limit to that for us to move on. For us to dive into ALL the issues. I won't push it or dictate that to her, because I'm not in her head & don't know how terrible she feels, but if after a certain amount of time she's still stuck in the same place, and won't go to counseling, I'm not sure there's anything else I can do.

 

Check out After the Affair, that should give you some sign of the recovery period and stages etc.

[NickFeek]

I will, thank you.

[trippi1432]

You know what Nick, I am going to be a little more brutral about this.

 

This is also post 3600 for me, so lucky you hitting a milestone with me.

 

"I'm not doing well." What does that mean? How does that tell her what you need from her?

 

"I really need you to help." Help with what? When? Where? How?

 

"I'm unhappy." So are half of the population, she might be thinking you are going to schedule an appointment with your GP for anti-depressants.

 

"We can't continue with a schedule like this." What needs to change? Why? When? and How?

 

"I really need you to work on changing your work situation." This is relative, you are using relative terms and they are not going to get you what you want. People suck at understanding and applying relative terms in relationships.

 

"The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." This isn't your marriage talking and it sounds a little guilt-trippy.

 

"You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." Meanwhile this seems like you are trivializing the work she does. Sorry dude, I've been through this cycle. My husband used to say "You just work all the time." Why yes, yes I do, thank you, I love that I am proud to provide for our family. That isn't a flaw. I couldn't see what he was getting at, it just seemed like a criticism.

 

"Can't you delegate more of your work?" See above.

 

"We never have any private time together." 'Always' and 'never' are great ways to kill any co-operation.

 

"What can I do to help?" This is good.

 

Truth be told, you are vague and she is avoidant. One of you has to change your communication style. She isn't posting on LS, that only leaves one person... Wonder Woman... oh no wait, she's out of town. Looks like it falls on you.

 

Formula:

 

1. "Is it a good time to have a small discussion?"

 

a) yes ---->proceed

b) not now ------>well what time in the next 48 hours is? proceed at that scheduled time

 

2. "I just want to say that I really appreciate __________ about you. I really do."

 

3. "I need to see X and Y because I feel Z, it is pretty important to me, what is your take on it?"

 

4. "Uh-huh, so what can we do to lessen/avoid that obstacle so that X/Y still can happen, or even partially happen."

 

5. "You sound like you are feeling _________, did I get that right?"

 

Then you brainstorm. It feel labour-intensive at first, and it is. Just stick with it and drill the steps into your head.

 

I find that a spouse will only be able to complete 80% of what they agree to at first. Baby steps, she isn't going to cut back to 40 hours a week and bang you all kinky in the next month.

 

"I need to see X and Y because I feel Z."

"What can we do to get there."

 

 

Sheesh DOT - will you marry me?? :rolleyes:

 

Great post DOT!! My exH and I both should have been communicating like that to get off the pot and making better changes in our marriage.

Happy 3600 post!!

[soserious1]

It varied quite a bit. Some were vague statements like "I'm not doing well." "I really need you to help." "I'm unhappy." Others were more specific like "We can't continue with a schedule like this." "I really need you to work on changing your work situation." "The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." "You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." "Can't you delegate more of your work?" "We never have any private time together." "What can I do to help?" I could list another 30 at least.

 

Of course, as the months wore on, some of the comments went from even-tempered to frustrated, angry & accusatory - which I admit did not help matters, and may have further pushed her inward. But I'm still stumped as to what's going on with her that she could just trudge on knowing how unhappy I was without wanting to jump in and change things.

 

Has your wife made partner yet? Do you have any idea how bleak job prospects are for lawyers these days and will be for quite some time?

Have you considered that perhaps, in addition to loving her work that maybe

your wife is concerned that if she doesn't continue to produce mega billable hours that she could easily be replaced?

 

As far as your infidelity goes, all the things you've listed here are rationalizations, nothing she did or did not do forced you to slip,fall and find

your penis in another woman. You were unhappy? you felt she ignored your requests for change? then filing for divorce was the option, not an affair.Till you can take true ownership of that without rationalizing or blame shifting I wouldn't bet much on your odds of working any of the rest of this out.

 

Btw, in the event of a divorce,the disparity in your incomes would most likely result in a situation where she would end up paying you alimony and sucking up 100% of the cost of rearing the kids even if she had primary custody of them.

[dreamingoftigers]

Sheesh DOT - will you marry me?? :rolleyes:

 

Great post DOT!! My exH and I both should have been communicating like that to get off the pot and making better changes in our marriage.

Happy 3600 post!!

 

You are the second woman on this site to mention marrying me.

 

One other mentioned that they always had a little heart for me.

 

LOL, it is nice to know that if I do end up single again that I have the vote of confidence from at least one gender.:lmao:

[NickFeek]

My wife's job security is extremely solid, and she would say the same thing. She's loved & respected by bosses, clients, coworkers, and is in line to be and Officer (no partners in this firm) as early as next year. HER BOSS has told her countless times that she works too much, and still gives her a hefty bonus every year.

 

No rationalizations. No excuses. And I don't blame her for my actions - I own my mistake completely. But anyone who knows anything about infidelity, especially if it's out of character, knows that it's a symptom. Yes, it is also a problem in and of itself, but whatever you want to call it it wouldn't have happened if we'd had a healthy marriage. She needs to admit that she was an equal partner in the degradation of our marriage. And it's crazy to say the FIRST step is filing for divorce. Do I agree that my step was a bad one in every way? Yes, absolutely. But there are plenty of steps in between vague complaints and divorce. And it might be backwards, but one thing my mistake has taught me is exactly what those steps are, and I'm willing to go there. And both my wife & I agree that it's NOT too little too late, which is all that matters.

 

And as for the money issue, I really couldn't care less. I don't want her money. I want her time and her love. I've told her a million times I'd rather we make less money & be happier. And a million times she has chosen her income & career over her partner. Her heart is in the right place, but her actions don't show it. And by the way, I have a successful career as well, but I do not let that get in the way of my wife & family.

[willowthewisp]

i divorced after 23 years with the same man... now 6 years later i wish i had done it MUCH sooner.

 

i was raised that you don't get divorced. i let go of that lie a long time ago - it's very freeing to live an authentic life - one that makes me and others happy instead of what others tell me i should or shouldn't be doing.

 

find what makes you happy - then do that.

 

You know it's interesting 2Sunny how later on in this thread you start to speak about wedding vows and how his wife hasn't kept them etc etc, yet you condone his cheating? You recommend walking away from a 20 + year marriage and yet you do not consider the other side of the coin, the other perspective, his wifes perspective. Why is that? Is it because you self justified to leave your marriage of 23 years and now you reinforce that self justification by advising others to do the same? Yes, now someone is judging you based only on your side of the story, maybe if I knew your XH side I would comend you for leaving? That is my point. See below for rest.....

 

you are modeling what marriage looks like for your kids. they will choose what they see from you. do you want them to have the kind of M you model to them as their version of "normal?"

 

Do you think it is equally as wise for children to be raised thinking that if a marriage doesn't work without effort that a person should just walk without trying? That as you say below in italics, people should always do whatever makes them happy instead of thinking of how their actions affect others? Just give up when the going gets tough? From what you have posted this seems to be what you are arguing. The OP did NOT get married, stay in that marriage and father three children because it was always bad, he did it because he WANTED to be there.

 

if you don't - then find what healthy looks like for you - then do THAT. with or without your wife... QUOTE]

 

 

you COULD easily view her work as her affair. many people use work to avoid the home life. same as an affair - keeps the partner absent and distant - at best.

 

what are YOU going to change? if things stay the same - you can expect more of the same.

 

IF she loves working that much - let her work. maybe suggest that you intend to find romance and intimacy without her - since her choice is to work all the time. seems fair, how can she expect to be connected to you when she's never available? why should you go for many more years without what you ultimately want - knowing full well she doesn't intend to provide that for you? if she loves you she should understand that since she's not going to provide that part of your marriage - that you certainly deserve to feel loved and wanted each day yo are alive... even if not by her.

 

she's not showing giving or loving behavior. she knows you want this yet she's unwilling to participate... it's cruelty at best.

 

This has got to be the most aggerated response I have ever read on LS. You are assuming an awful lot here. Suggesting that the OP get sex somewhere else because his wife isn't providing it??????!!!!!! Why do you think a women should provide sex as of right? Do you sleep with a man who is making you unhappy? Like I have said , we do not know her side of this story, maybe she works and doesn't want intimacy because she feels no emotional connection to the OP through HIS actions...see below...

 

Her main interpersonal complaint is that I don't (or didn't) always listen to her when she is trying to tell me something difficult. And until recently she's been right about that.

No, the biggest source of emasculation for me is an all but wasted sex life.

 

Right her Nick, this is most probably the key to your problems. As Tojaz pointed out to you, you are spending a lot of time talking about how things are right for you, what you need and what your wife is and isn't doing. How has what you have done/haven't done contributed to your wifes lack of desire for sex with you? How has YOUR behaviour effected the emotional intimacy in your marriage?

 

I wish it would be as simple as getting her to agree that if she doesn't want that kind of intimacy (not to say we don't & wouldn't share other kinds), then I should be allowed to seek it elsewhere. I've even looked into the effects of a couple being "separated" while still living together for other reasons - financial, kids, closeness in other ways. And believe me this is all something I've considered, and would even try for a while. I'm just not sure it's sustainable in the long term. BUT you're right, I do feel like she's asking for no sex with others (perfectly reasonable) without providing any herself. I really appreciate hearing that I deserve to feel that. After what I've done I haven't been sure I do.

 

You want your wife to give you permission to sleep with other women? You think you deserve to be able to do that? Hang on.....see above, why are you in this situation? Why is this ALL your wifes fault?

 

I know I've misstepped in many ways over the years, not just this recent mistake but in the ways I've responded to her intimacy problems. Haven't always been patient or helpful. But we HAVE tried to get to the bottom of her intimacy problem, and the best I can figure is her incredible fear of the subject is preventing her from ever getting deep enough. I know I've compounded the situation tremendously, but I've also tried a ton of approaches to help her thru this, and progress was glacial at best, and then after kids we took several steps backwards.

.

 

How have you handled it badly? How have you compounded it? Is she afraid to get close to you becaus eof past hurts you have caused her?

 

 

That's a good way to look at it. I do agree that she feels trapped by her career and is absolutely hurting from not having enough time with the kids.

 

So she admits herself that she is unhappy with her life, her work? So why is she working such long hours? Perhaps she has to in order to keep her job, perhaps she feels it is the only source of her self esteem? You mention (later) that you have been abgry and critical with her for years, at work she gets reconition for her efforts, at home she gets anger, criticism and cheated on.

 

I did individual from 1996-2007, most of that with one doctor. Nothing for either of us since then.

 

Whoah, why so long in IC? WHat issues did you have to work through that took you ten years? Not judging you, really I'm not, but it does raise a red flag, how have YOUR issues contributed to your marriage problems ove rthe last ten years?

 

 

IF she doesn't intend to BE home- PARTICIPATING in the family on a daily basis - move her out.

 

 

Have you asked WHY she doesn't wnat to be home?

 

even though you had an affair - she's still not wanting to be intimate with you and be home to interact and become supportive and connected to you. she has no intention of making things different. let her work. you get busy living. living without her and her continual absence. putting up with it all has only shown her by your actions that you are willing to reward her bad behavior- let's just ignore everything and have her keep working all day long.

 

I actually can't beleive I read this. You are seriously suggesting that a women who does not want to be intimate with her husband after finding out that he has had an affair has something worng with her????? You're kidding surely?

 

call it as it is... "this isn't a M- and i'm not willing to keep pretending that no intimacy, no sex and no time with you is living a happy life" "since your priority is to be away at work- you may as well move because you don't participate with the family anyway"

 

so wait. and wait some more. you've been a patient man for 20 years - what's another 20 or so? IF you decide to sit back and be at the mercy of her... you have no one to blame but yourself for not DOING things differently.

 

either get busy living or get busy dying. what's it gonna be?

 

He hasn't been at anyones mercy? To say such as thing is very dramtical don't you think? Lets get real here, the OP CHOOSE to spend 20 years with this women, for a reason and now that reason, re-writing a marital history does not alter that FACT. My IC says it is absoultely farcical the way leavers are able to totally re-write the marital history. Essentially they are in PURE DENIAL. Denial will always out, it will always lift, eventually. That is why you see leavers return here serveral years down the track regreting their decision. The most recent one we had here on this board had left his wife and children 22 years ago and now wishes he were dead, he "woke up" one day and realised JUST what he had done.

 

I agree you can't judge what happened based on how it felt. A brief and heated affair like that is bound to feel exhilarating for both parties. I don't know that she has a disorder, but I'm sure it was fulfilling a need in her apart from what she felt about me as a person. To her credit, once we agreed to end it, she devoted a lot of effort toward helping me repair my marriage. We are both good people who had never done this before and realized how badly we screwed up. And yes, what makes this situation not black and white us that my wife has given me support and friendship in many other ways over the years, not to mention three amazing kids. And I will give her due respect and time because of all that. It's Just that none of that can take away how horrible things have felt for so long.

 

Nick, are you seriously telling me that your mistress helped you repair your marriage after your affair ended and you thought this was a good thing? Why were you even in contact with her? ALL contact should have ceased. How do you expect to reconcile your marriage if you are in contact and worse still, discussing your marital problems with a women you cheated on your wife with?

 

i am a believer that since she said her vows and hasn't held up her end of doing the work to be connected to you - as her husband - that she hasn't been honoring her commitment. As above, there may well be a very good reason why she hasn't. We only have one side of the story, perhaps OP hasn't kept HIS wedding vows.

 

her vows never once stated "i will work all day long and half the evening too - in order to make more money and avoid being with my family"And his never said I will go off and sleep with another women

 

something in her is broken if she has the need to hide in her workload. since she's unwilling to uncover it and discard that crap she's been hanging onto - all she's offering you is her absence and the broken version of herself.

 

be patient all you want - patience NEVER makes someone change - her being EXTREMELY uncomfortable will bring about change. what are you going to do to make her uncomfortable enough to do something rather than nothing?Again, wait, we do not know WHY hs wife is withdrawn.

 

here's a great link and formula for change:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_for_Change

 

IF she's not dissatisfied with how things are - she's not going to be motivated to want to change a thing = so you can expect much more of the same... or even bigger resistance.

 

if you take the money she earns () out of the equation - what is it she is offering to him as a wife?

 

no intimacy

no participation

no connection

no sex

no time together

 

what is it she has offered?QUestion - what has OP offered?

 

money is beside the point... IF he's staying because she earns money - then he needs to get out there and earn more of his own... so he can easily support himself and his kids in order to NOT feel at the mercy of needing his wife's money - but getting short changed on living; and short changed on being married to a wife that actually acts as if she intends to be IN the marriage.

 

Has your wife made partner yet? Do you have any idea how bleak job prospects are for lawyers these days and will be for quite some time?

Have you considered that perhaps, in addition to loving her work that maybe

your wife is concerned that if she doesn't continue to produce mega billable hours that she could easily be replaced?

 

As far as your infidelity goes, all the things you've listed here are rationalizations, nothing she did or did not do forced you to slip,fall and find

your penis in another woman. You were unhappy? you felt she ignored your requests for change? then filing for divorce was the option, not an affair.Till you can take true ownership of that without rationalizing or blame shifting I wouldn't bet much on your odds of working any of the rest of this out.

 

Btw, in the event of a divorce,the disparity in your incomes would most likely result in a situation where she would end up paying you alimony and sucking up 100% of the cost of rearing the kids even if she had primary custody of them.

 

Exactly, there may be many reasons, possibily based on the OPs behaviour even, for why his wife has withdrawn into her work.

 

OK Nick, as you can see I spent an awful long time responding to your thread and I am sure a lot of it sounded like attacking you and 2Sunny. Not my intention. I just wnated to point out that this thread is getting very one-sided and perhaps rather dramatic in its conclusions. It takes two to tango Nick. What is YOUR part in the problems in this marriage?

 

Sometimes, it is only one partner, sometimes it is their issues and if that is the case here and you really really have tried to get your wife to address them then i apologize, but I get the impression from some of your posts that there is much more to this story. that perhaps your wifes emotional disconnect from you, her lack of desire for you, the working long hours is not as a result of her personalility or her issues, but more as a result of your marriage. HER needs maybe aren't being met?

[willowthewisp]

My wife's job security is extremely solid, and she would say the same thing. She's loved & respected by bosses, clients, coworkers, and is in line to be and Officer (no partners in this firm) as early as next year. HER BOSS has told her countless times that she works too much, and still gives her a hefty bonus every year.

 

No rationalizations. No excuses. And I don't blame her for my actions - I own my mistake completely. But anyone who knows anything about infidelity, especially if it's out of character, knows that it's a symptom. Yes, it is also a problem in and of itself, but whatever you want to call it it wouldn't have happened if we'd had a healthy marriage. She needs to admit that she was an equal partner in the degradation of our marriage. And it's crazy to say the FIRST step is filing for divorce. Do I agree that my step was a bad one in every way? Yes, absolutely. But there are plenty of steps in between vague complaints and divorce. And it might be backwards, but one thing my mistake has taught me is exactly what those steps are, and I'm willing to go there. And both my wife & I agree that it's NOT too little too late, which is all that matters.

 

And as for the money issue, I really couldn't care less. I don't want her money. I want her time and her love. I've told her a million times I'd rather we make less money & be happier. And a million times she has chosen her income & career over her partner. Her heart is in the right place, but her actions don't show it. And by the way, I have a successful career as well, but I do not let that get in the way of my wife & family.

 

Nick, I'm going to be blunt here. You aren't taking responsibility fo ryour actions and you are trying to justify your affair. Not everyone who has marital problems cheats, the decision to do that was not a symptom of your marriage, that is your alone to own. Until you take responsibily for your choice, nothing will improve in your marriage. How can you expect your wife to reconnect with you when you have not taken responsibily?

 

Your wife has choosen to stay with you in the face of your adultery. THAT is unconditional love. Beleive me when I tell you a lot of women would have kicked you to the curb, no looking back.

[NickFeek]

On a bus here so I'm going to keep my responses brief.

 

First I want to say how much I appreciate all the feedback from both sides. None of you had to respond to any of this, and the fact that you took time to do so means a lot to me.

 

I think it's clear all of us are bringing our backgrounds and prejudices to this discussion, me included and no judgment there. But please remember that this is just that: a discussion. Which means at least two key things: 1. A lot of conflicting feelings are going to come out, because it's a sad and tough situation, and I AM conflicted. And that leads to 2. You can't cherry pick comments made and characterize them as a philosophy. You can only properly judge statements in context, and weighed against the aggregate.

 

I can't possibly answer all of the comments, but I did read every one of them. It's good to see the one-sidedness shifting and things balancing out. What that points out more than anything is that there is no one correct side. Both sides are valid. It's how my wife and I treat that fact that will make all the difference in our recovery or separation. There's no way you can read all I've said and bot cone away with the impression that I'm trying to consider the needs of everyone involved - wife, kids and myself. And it should also be blatantly obvious that I have owned my mistake from the beginning. As well that both of us have allowed our issues to affect this marriage. And in the end one week's worth of penis insertion weighed aganist a decade or two in a sexual desert ... Well all of you can judge how they measure up. Beyond that you're really just spouting stereotypes and cliches. This situation is too real and complex to warrant that.

 

Finally, about my therapy. You are clearly judging. Don't you think I'm aware I had issues to work on? That's why I was there. My contention is that I worked my ass off to get healthy, did a fairly good job of it, and my wife gave up on her journey. We were 17 when we met. I have changed and discovered things about myself through hard work. She has not gone down that road with me, so we ended up in very different places. I wish every day I could take back my decision to cheat. But I can't. So the next best thing is NOT to live in a state of indefinite betrayer-betrayed, but to take the opportunity to either build something better than we had, or decide that we can't and part ways with mutual respect.

[soserious1]

Nick,

 

Personally, after reading all of your responses I don't see any hope for your marriage, guilt tripping her didn't work, being nasty & raging at her didn't work, cheating on her didn't work & shifting the onus on her for all of the above doesn't seem to be working either.. I say stick a fork in it, the marriage is done.