25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[2sunny]

It varied quite a bit. Some were vague statements like "I'm not doing well." "I really need you to help." "I'm unhappy." Others were more specific like "We can't continue with a schedule like this." "I really need you to work on changing your work situation." "The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." "You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." "Can't you delegate more of your work?" "We never have any private time together." "What can I do to help?" I could list another 30 at least.

 

Of course, as the months wore on, some of the comments went from even-tempered to frustrated, angry & accusatory - which I admit did not help matters, and may have further pushed her inward. But I'm still stumped as to what's going on with her that she could just trudge on knowing how unhappy I was without wanting to jump in and change things.

 

all these things are point at her... either doing or not doing... what about you?

 

YOU need to state what YOU are going to do!

 

"honey, i'm divorcing you in six months if our life doesn't completely change so we can spend plenty of time together" that's it! YOU have now stated what YOU will DO!

 

see if she gets it. yes, she has choices - but she has continually ignored all of your needs for so many years that you act as if this is ok. and stop being so vague - state the obvious... YOU are leaving her since she chooses to be married to her work instead of you.

[NickFeek]

Nick,

 

Personally, after reading all of your responses I don't see any hope for your marriage, guilt tripping her didn't work, being nasty & raging at her didn't work, cheating on her didn't work & shifting the onus on her for all of the above doesn't seem to be working either.. I say stick a fork in it, the marriage is done.

 

Cool, well thanks. I'll be sure to run out and get that fork.

 

You win the award for the least constructive comment in this thread.

[NickFeek]

all these things are point at her... either doing or not doing... what about you?

 

YOU need to state what YOU are going to do!

 

"honey, i'm divorcing you in six months if our life doesn't completely change so we can spend plenty of time together" that's it! YOU have now stated what YOU will DO!

 

see if she gets it. yes, she has choices - but she has continually ignored all of your needs for so many years that you act as if this is ok. and stop being so vague - state the obvious... YOU are leaving her since she chooses to be married to her work instead of you.

 

That rings very true. I have been the passive one of late, placing all the do or not do onto her. I don't like ultimatums or deadlines, but I DO still need to be more specific about what will happen if WE (not just she) don't work on getting this right.

[2sunny]

i think you're not getting what i'm saying.

 

YOU can't make her DO anything. YOU can only DO what YOU will DO.

 

state exactly what you will or will not do. be specific and precise! no moving away from EXACTLY what your intentions are. clear cut boundary.

[NickFeek]

Sorry, I take that back. I realize you actually gave a direct answer to the title question of my posting. I still think it's a very very very one-sided and premature judgment, but I appreciate the directness and simplicity of your answer.

[soserious1]

Sorry, I take that back. I realize you actually gave a direct answer to the title question of my posting. I still think it's a very very very one-sided and premature judgment, but I appreciate the directness and simplicity of your answer.

 

Nick, You came here basically ready to throw in the towel yourself as evidenced by the title of your thread. You yourself have stated you've done

the following.

 

1. complained loud and long about being unhappy

2 .guilt tripped her about the kids

3. become increasingly angry,nasty & accusatory with her

4. you had an affair

 

Has any of the above worked? What else is there to try?

[lovingwhatis]

NickFeek,

 

I read your entire thread yesterday and wanted to write you something, though it seems that you are particularly annoyed tonight. But here it is, something outside the box, purely for your consideration, not telling you what to do. It is interesting that you did pose a very specific question in the title of the thread, but feel that your situation is very gray.

 

My first suggestion is to ask yourself the question : Who would I be without the thought "Divorce is the worst?"

 

Second is radical acceptance, along the lines of what 2sure has been suggesting. What if you accept your W EXACTLY as she is? I mean exactly. What you see is what you get. Nothing to ever change, nothing to improve, this is IT. This is who you get. How could that be? Because it is what you've been getting, and more importantly, you have absolutely no guarantees that something will change. Can you be OK with this?

 

Can you forgive yourself completely for the A and stop poisoning the environment with your guilt? What would happen in that case?

 

Can you begin to forgive her completely for not being there for you in the M, realizing that she did the very best she could given her mindset, and emotional abilities considering what she has gone through?

 

I know the last two are pretty intense, but just wanted to put it in the pot. As Einstein wisely said, "no significant problems were ever solved at the level of thinking in which we created them."

Edited April 24, 2011 by lovingwhatis

[2sunny]

IF you decide to stay in the M - just stay knowing that you are emotionally alone in the marriage. that's always a valid choice - but let's be realistic... you stay = expect to feel alone.

[NickFeek]

Nick, You came here basically ready to throw in the towel yourself as evidenced by the title of your thread. You yourself have stated you've done

the following.

 

1. complained loud and long about being unhappy

2 .guilt tripped her about the kids

3. become increasingly angry,nasty & accusatory with her

4. you had an affair

 

Has any of the above worked? What else is there to try?

 

Yes but your approach and all of your posts assume I'm the only culprit here. It's like you only read the parts where I was bring honest about my faults and failings, and completely skipped everything else. And let's readjust some of your reductionist statements:

1. I did not "complain". I genuinely expressed what I was feeling in hopes that she would understand the severity of our situation.

2. I never have and never will guilt trip her about the kids. In one of the many parts you must have chosen to skip, I said she a great mother and there's no one else I'd want parenting our kids. Do we both want her to spend more time with them? Yes. That's not a guilt trip. It's a fact.

3. I own this one. Can't argue with you.

4. Same here.

 

So is your argument that if none of my attempts to change things worked - and there were an equal number of good and bad attempts by the way - then I should just not even bother to make better attempts? Seems to me you disprove your own argument. My efforts were so crappy at times that logically that would mean the outcome would be crappy. So wouldn't it make more sense to say a better outcome could result from a better effort? And this is not even bringing into the picture my wife's efforts and/or lack thereof. She's done her share of both helpful and damaging things too.

[NickFeek]

IF you decide to stay in the M - just stay knowing that you are emotionally alone in the marriage. that's always a valid choice - but let's be realistic... you stay = expect to feel alone.

 

Well my goal is one of two things:

1. Stay in the marriage ONLY because we can work out these issues and not be emotionally alone.

2. Leave.

 

I refuse to go back to the status quo. It's gotten us nowhere.

[2sunny]

That rings very true. I have been the passive one of late, placing all the do or not do onto her. I don't like ultimatums or deadlines, but I DO still need to be more specific about what will happen if WE (not just she) don't work on getting this right.

 

that's the problem - you think that you both are working on it. there is no WE - you are talking about it - and she isn't intending to change anything. she kist wants you to shut up and let her do what she wants.

 

is that working well for you? it will continue for a lifetime. i'm tired of that scene and i've only been reading here for a few days- it would get old really quick. let's say you two were dating... how could she possibly be connected to you all when she keeps the schedule she keeps. it's not fair to the family unit and she doesn't change it. she's absent. and she does it on purpose knowing it hurts you. that's just terribly mean of her. yet she does it over and over knowing her actions cause harm. that's not loving behavior - that's harm filled behavior. i'd be pissed- and so should you be.

 

Sorry, I take that back. I realize you actually gave a direct answer to the title question of my posting. I still think it's a very very very one-sided and premature judgment, but I appreciate the directness and simplicity of your answer.

 

i didn't judge - i'm working from your written words. just the facts that shows how she doesn't participate. why are you defending her bad behavior that causes harm? defending her now looks like backpedaling, which is it?

 

i'm always direct... simpler that way with no room for misinterpretations - you should try it - it completely effective. no one misunderstands me - ever. no one disregards me anymore either, since i started communicating this effectively. things are simple when one is direct. life is simple. try it.

 

"honey, i can't stand the way this M is going - you should leave since you don't intend to make any changes"

 

what's wrong with stating the obvious? try it - it works.

[dreamingoftigers]

Nick,

 

Personally, after reading all of your responses I don't see any hope for your marriage, guilt tripping her didn't work, being nasty & raging at her didn't work, cheating on her didn't work & shifting the onus on her for all of the above doesn't seem to be working either.. I say stick a fork in it, the marriage is done.

 

He hasn't tried being direct, honest, supportive and collaborative and open yet.

[NickFeek]

Wow, this is a wildly brilliant post. And I applaud you for wading through all of this! To answer:

 

Who would I be without the thought "Divorce is the worst?"

--This one I'll need to contemplate because it's so hard for me to fathom.

 

This is who you get. Can you be OK with this?

--No.

 

Can you forgive yourself completely for the A and stop poisoning the environment with your guilt? What would happen in that case?*

--Yes I can, eventually. I think that would bring light and air into our discussions, stop me from responding too passively or defensively, and hopefully prompt her to want to move on as well. Among other things.

 

Can you begin to forgive her completely for not being there for you in the M, realizing that she did the very best she could given her mindset, and emotional abilities considering what she has gone through?

--I think I can. But I'm still hurting so much from it that I'm afraid to let it go for fear that things would end up being that way forever. I'll need to work really hard on this and the previous one.

 

Thanks for that Einstein quote. It really is what I'm trying to do.

[soserious1]

Yes but your approach and all of your posts assume I'm the only culprit here. It's like you only read the parts where I was bring honest about my faults and failings, and completely skipped everything else. And let's readjust some of your reductionist statements:

1. I did not "complain". I genuinely expressed what I was feeling in hopes that she would understand the severity of our situation.

2. I never have and never will guilt trip her about the kids. In one of the many parts you must have chosen to skip, I said she a great mother and there's no one else I'd want parenting our kids. Do we both want her to spend more time with them? Yes. That's not a guilt trip. It's a fact.

3. I own this one. Can't argue with you.

4. Same here.

 

So is your argument that if none of my attempts to change things worked - and there were an equal number of good and bad attempts by the way - then I should just not even bother to make better attempts? Seems to me you disprove your own argument. My efforts were so crappy at times that logically that would mean the outcome would be crappy. So wouldn't it make more sense to say a better outcome could result from a better effort? And this is not even bringing into the picture my wife's efforts and/or lack thereof. She's done her share of both helpful and damaging things too.

 

What I'm saying to you is this, You clearly want a wife who will pull her 40 & come running home to cook,clean & caretake and who will be highly sexual. From everything you have posted it seems to me that your wife is not any of those things and probably never really was.

 

Nick, we each get only one life, there are fixable minor personality quirks & conflicts in relatinships and then there are huge, gaping incompatibilities

between people that aren't surmountable. You've listed a lot of things you've tried, a lot of conflict trying to get her to change, to get her to want the kind of life you desire to no avail.

 

Right now it looks like all that's happening is a ton of additional wounding to you both, pain that accomplishes nothing & that will only serve to make an eventual divorce even more painful.

 

we only get one life, you say you have been unhappy for many years, you state you've tried a variety of methods to change things & nothing has worked.

 

You want a wife who will pull her 40 & come running home to cook,clean & caretake.. and that's no dig we all want different things

[2sunny]

Well my goal is one of two things:

1. Stay in the marriage ONLY because we can work out these issues and not be emotionally alone.

2. Leave.

 

I refuse to go back to the status quo. It's gotten us nowhere.

 

you're not getting it.

 

we can't work things out when there is only one I. she's not participating. it is only up to you. you are emotionally alone. she isn't planning to participate on an emotional level - there's too much pain - and she won't address it - to let it go - she won't - or she would have somewhere along the way instead of running away from the counselor. something happened = she can't face it. my best guess is abuse in childhood... probably sexual abuse. and she's not going to tell you. and she's gonna hang onto to it - knowing by hanging on - she can NEVER allow herself to be emotionally close to you.

 

THAT is the way it works when she won't get past that pain - YOU can't make her - and YOU can't take her pain away.

 

SINCE she won't address it and get past the fear - there is no WE - it is simply only YOU.

 

accept that or leave it.

[dreamingoftigers]

i think you're not getting what i'm saying.

 

YOU can't make her DO anything. YOU can only DO what YOU will DO.

 

state exactly what you will or will not do. be specific and precise! no moving away from EXACTLY what your intentions are. clear cut boundary.

 

That's right: 1. Boundaries, Where You End and I Begin.

2. Harville Hendrix: Getting the Love You Deserve.

 

I hope you like reading, saving a marriage often means acquiring a library. You took 25 years to screw it up, you gotta read at least 25 hours to put it back together.

[NickFeek]

2sunny...

 

No actually we ate talking and working on it together. Yes I'll admit that I'm doing more of it, but every conversation I've had with my wife in the last four months or so has shown me that she is in the mix with me, and that she understands things do need to change on both sides. That doesn't guarantee she will make those changes, but I'm willing to give her some months to wade through the infidelity recovery so she can clear her head and emotions enough to get there. AND THEN if she still can't change, well it's over.

 

Sorry, that other "sorry" post was meant for my comment to soserious, not to you. But I DO admire your directness. And I don't think you judge at all.

 

You have inspired me to try the direct approach. I have done it in bits and pieces before, but now I'm going to respectfully go for it and see what the response is.

[NickFeek]

Thank you for that posting. I agree with a lot of it. But there's one big misunderstanding here.

 

I do most of the cooking. I enjoy cooking. I do about half of the cleaning or slightly more. I have zero issue with that. I do wish out kid time was more balanced, but I take pride in my parenting and enjoy my time with my kids. And while I'd love for her to do 40, I'd settle for 50 at this point!

 

Hope that clears up some things.

[2sunny]

2sunny...

 

No actually we ate talking and working on it together. Yes I'll admit that I'm doing more of it, but every conversation I've had with my wife in the last four months or so has shown me that she is in the mix with me, and that she understands things do need to change on both sides. That doesn't guarantee she will make those changes, but I'm willing to give her some months to wade through the infidelity recovery so she can clear her head and emotions enough to get there. AND THEN if she still can't change, well it's over.

 

Sorry, that other "sorry" post was meant for my comment to soserious, not to you. But I DO admire your directness. And I don't think you judge at all.

 

You have inspired me to try the direct approach. I have done it in bits and pieces before, but now I'm going to respectfully go for it and see what the response is.

 

that's good. direct tells her exactly what you will or won't do.

 

in your first paragraph you are sidestepping again - in her defense each time (your pattern) this defends the fact that she's all talk and no change. never gives much hope or substance. she's married to her work - you are her mistress - so essentially - she's been cheating a hell of a long time... you have just been submissive enough to put up with her indirect cheating.

[NickFeek]

Meant to direct this post to soserious.

[NickFeek]

He hasn't tried being direct, honest, supportive and collaborative and open yet.

 

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say, and what she and I have been doing for the last four plus months. All those other attempts were pre infidelity. It's a new age now.

[soserious1]

2sunny...

 

No actually we ate talking and working on it together. Yes I'll admit that I'm doing more of it, but every conversation I've had with my wife in the last four months or so has shown me that she is in the mix with me, and that she understands things do need to change on both sides. That doesn't guarantee she will make those changes, but I'm willing to give her some months to wade through the infidelity recovery so she can clear her head and emotions enough to get there. AND THEN if she still can't change, well it's over.

 

Sorry, that other "sorry" post was meant for my comment to soserious, not to you. But I DO admire your directness. And I don't think you judge at all.

 

You have inspired me to try the direct approach. I have done it in bits and pieces before, but now I'm going to respectfully go for it and see what the response is.

 

I want to point out to you that started this thread pretty clearly looking for folks to support you in reaching the conclusion that your marriage was over

and did an abrupt 180 once people started agreeing with you.

 

Btw, a 50-60 hour work week is fairly standard among a lot of professional people myself included,lawyers tend to work even more. The only people I know who work 40 hours weeks are paid by the hour and punch a time

clock.

[2sunny]

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say, and what she and I have been doing for the last four plus months. All those other attempts were pre infidelity. It's a new age now.

 

that's good - but just talk. how has she cut back on work? she knows that's the biggest roadblock to your marriage and its' success. has she cut back the past four months? if not - she's not DOING anything she's talking about.

 

when words and actions don't match- there's a lie in there somewhere - every time.

[NickFeek]

2sunny, I have always suspected there was some kind of abuse, but anytime we talked about it she could not remember anything.

 

I agree she has been mostly talk. What I'm seeing now is if she will move to action now that she understands how do or die things are. And that's where the direct approach can work well.

 

I also agree that her MO is eerily similar to lying and cheating. And even if it's not actually that it feels that way to me.

[NickFeek]

I want to point out to you that started this thread pretty clearly looking for folks to support you in reaching the conclusion that your marriage was over

and did an abrupt 180 once people started agreeing with you.

The whole idea of it being a question is I don't know the answer. So there was no 180. There was and is me and all of us exploring both sides, which has been incredibly helpful. The deciding part is something I'll have to do on my own, outside of this forum.

Btw, a 50-60 hour work week is fairly standard among a lot of professional people myself included,lawyers tend to work even more. The only people I know who work 40 hours weeks are paid by the hour and punch a time

clock.

[/b]That is just a gross overstatement. We live and work in NYC, and split of people we know is about 50-50, half work normal, salaried 40-hour weeks (like me). The other half work much more. Plus the real issue is balance. She can work all she wants and needs to, but if it's at the expense of our marriage then it's unacceptable. [/b]