25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

Well it's funny because my brother has said if she were a man working these hours & having no interest in sex, the first thing people would think is she's having an affair. But I can tell you knowing her as well as I do that that's not in the realm of possibility.

[trippi1432]

Nick...not sure if I buy the CP issue...seems that came up rather recently and after you told her about the infidelity...seems more like trust issues which is typical after infidelity in the recovery process.

 

You stated on an earlier post that you didn't treat her owell in the beginning...and that your anger and frustration of late have been with her...but the complaints from earlier in the marriage are not how the two of you are now. What were some of those earlier issues? How were the two of you in quality time and sex 10 years ago...20 years ago?? Being that your wife's profession is so demanding...her long hours are understandable...being a lawyer is not a standard 40 hour work week; however, I've known many who carry on very well and happily in a marriage...typically on a marriage where true intimacy is understood by both partners. True intimacy is not the act of sex itself, nor does it take place in the bedroom.

 

Can you give a little more history??

[NickFeek]

I think it's most likely a combination of CP and all the anger/frustration/hurt/sadness she's feeling from my infidelity. There have definitely been times throughout our marriage when she's been reluctant to go deeper with an emotional or sexual issue with me, and she admits she throws herself into her work to block out things (something we all do at times).

 

I'd say my poor treatment of her (constant anger and berating over what I perceived as neglect & overwork & not being able to trust her word or trust that she would follow through) started to turn about three years ago. Prior to that, we certainly got into arguments - from the very beginning. But it was always on a more equal footing, and while we didn't usually resolve the underlying issue, we always made up.

 

We dated for six years before marrying, principally because we started dating when we were 17! The dating period had its issues, but we had both decided to wait until marriage to have sex so that time was much less complicated. Once we got married, as I may have said, it took us over two years to finally have sex. We're both at fault on that one. Her unwillingness & inability to open up to me - literally & figuratively, and my fear of being to forceful and aggressive - again both literally & figuratively. So we had a lot of catching up to do. It happened in fits & starts through the 90s, partly because we were so inept, partly because we were both going through tag-team depression/anxiety and subsequent therapy, partly because of my issues with porn, partly because of her issues with sex in general. It was a big soup of a mess. Emotionally it was about the same, but we always talked things out. Time-wise we certainly were together more then than now, but even back then her hours were terrible, and she's a morning person & I'm a night person.

 

THEN we started to have kids, and things got a lot mellower because there was an overt reason to devote less time to each other. Not a good thing, but easier for us to swallow. We tried couples therapy briefly in 2002, I continued individual therapy for 10 years, she did individual off & on, then quit also in 2002. I tried to give us a personal structure for a better marriage in about 2005 - lots of research & all that. Neither of us followed through. Since 2006-7 or so, we've both spent more time on kids & work than on each other.

 

Once I started to see how we were erring - after our third kid was born - I began to express to her how unhappy & anxious I was, how that was mounting, and how I felt that she wasn't happy either but was sublimating that within her work & the kids. She made some strong efforts to change things at work, but it only got worse. I made more of an effort to talk to her, but she never seemed to have the time. And then I screwed up & allowed a work friendship to slip into a one-week affair. I was so scared after it ended that I hid it for weeks. When I finally told her all hell broke loose - of course. That was six months ago, and this is where we are now.

 

Not sure if any of that answers your questions, and I'm CERTAIN it was too long, but I thank you anyway for asking and hopefully reading through it.

 

What do you think?

[trippi1432]

I'm still out on a ledge on the CP....I don't feel that it fits the history. Certainly the sex issues had to come up in therapy and there are many things besides CP that fit in sexual hangups for women.

 

The recent infidelity could be explanatory to the recent issues, anything from her feeling guilty about her lack of sex drive or/and intimacy where you sought sex outside the marriage to her feeling angry and frustrated that you did do this. However, that does not explain the history of the years of lack of consummating the marriage for two years.

 

You stated that her work hours were horrendous back then as well, did she go into law because she wanted to or was it chosen for her?

[NickFeek]

I'm still out on a ledge on the CP....I don't feel that it fits the history. Certainly the sex issues had to come up in therapy and there are many things besides CP that fit in sexual hangups for women.

 

The recent infidelity could be explanatory to the recent issues, anything from her feeling guilty about her lack of sex drive or/and intimacy where you sought sex outside the marriage to her feeling angry and frustrated that you did do this. However, that does not explain the history of the years of lack of consummating the marriage for two years.

 

You stated that her work hours were horrendous back then as well, did she go into law because she wanted to or was it chosen for her?

 

You may be right about the CP. Whatever issues she's had there have either been about following through on working on a problem. Or sex. And that is its own thing. Sadly though sex came up in therapy all the time for me, it never did for her. Nor did it on our brief attempt at couples therapy.

 

I'm sure you're dead on about the recent stuff, and I have told her many times I no longer expect any physical intimacy from her while she's still in the midst of processing my cheating. But yes, none of this explains the early years of our marriage, which neither of us handled well, each in our own way.

 

She chose law in college. No pressure from anyone. Her parents are wonderful for the most part. And she does love it. Gets a huge rush from her work and is excellent at it.

[trippi1432]

Good....family background is important. Aside from the recent issues....and while you brought up lack of sexual intimacy in the therapy sessions...did she bring up any lack of other intimacy in the sessions? This is important, because sometimes men tend to look at intimacy differently than women....for men, it can be more the physical than true intimacy.

 

In addition, sometimes women CAN get their feelings of true intimacy from their friends....that intimacy is understanding, compassion....a feeling of being safe in their own ideals, being allowed to have strengths and weaknesses...strength of character and weakness of character without being judged or criticized for it.

 

For men, intimacy with a woman is different than intimacy with friends...for obvious reasons....however; it tends to trend that men in relationships with strong women (and this can be from personality to financials) can feel emasculated. Now, having said that, emasculation can happen on either side...women can do that to men...overbearing personality, and men can do that to themselves due to depression and/or low self esteem.

 

Did that ever come up as an issue for you?

[2sunny]

I think it's most likely a combination of CP and all the anger/frustration/hurt/sadness she's feeling from my infidelity. There have definitely been times throughout our marriage when she's been reluctant to go deeper with an emotional or sexual issue with me, and she admits she throws herself into her work to block out things (something we all do at times).

 

I'd say my poor treatment of her (constant anger and berating over what I perceived as neglect & overwork & not being able to trust her word or trust that she would follow through) started to turn about three years ago. Prior to that, we certainly got into arguments - from the very beginning. But it was always on a more equal footing, and while we didn't usually resolve the underlying issue, we always made up.

 

We dated for six years before marrying, principally because we started dating when we were 17! The dating period had its issues, but we had both decided to wait until marriage to have sex so that time was much less complicated. Once we got married, as I may have said, it took us over two years to finally have sex. We're both at fault on that one. Her unwillingness & inability to open up to me - literally & figuratively, and my fear of being to forceful and aggressive - again both literally & figuratively. So we had a lot of catching up to do. It happened in fits & starts through the 90s, partly because we were so inept, partly because we were both going through tag-team depression/anxiety and subsequent therapy, partly because of my issues with porn, partly because of her issues with sex in general. It was a big soup of a mess. Emotionally it was about the same, but we always talked things out. Time-wise we certainly were together more then than now, but even back then her hours were terrible, and she's a morning person & I'm a night person.

 

THEN we started to have kids, and things got a lot mellower because there was an overt reason to devote less time to each other. Not a good thing, but easier for us to swallow. We tried couples therapy briefly in 2002, I continued individual therapy for 10 years, she did individual off & on, then quit also in 2002. I tried to give us a personal structure for a better marriage in about 2005 - lots of research & all that. Neither of us followed through. Since 2006-7 or so, we've both spent more time on kids & work than on each other.

 

Once I started to see how we were erring - after our third kid was born - I began to express to her how unhappy & anxious I was, how that was mounting, and how I felt that she wasn't happy either but was sublimating that within her work & the kids. She made some strong efforts to change things at work, but it only got worse. I made more of an effort to talk to her, but she never seemed to have the time. And then I screwed up & allowed a work friendship to slip into a one-week affair. I was so scared after it ended that I hid it for weeks. When I finally told her all hell broke loose - of course. That was six months ago, and this is where we are now.

 

Not sure if any of that answers your questions, and I'm CERTAIN it was too long, but I thank you anyway for asking and hopefully reading through it.

 

What do you think?

 

all that counseling for things to remain essentially the same or even worse? that isn't adequate.

 

you COULD easily view her work as her affair. many people use work to avoid the home life. same as an affair - keeps the partner absent and distant - at best.

 

what are YOU going to change? if things stay the same - you can expect more of the same.

 

IF she loves working that much - let her work. maybe suggest that you intend to find romance and intimacy without her - since her choice is to work all the time. seems fair, how can she expect to be connected to you when she's never available? why should you go for many more years without what you ultimately want - knowing full well she doesn't intend to provide that for you? if she loves you she should understand that since she's not going to provide that part of your marriage - that you certainly deserve to feel loved and wanted each day yo are alive... even if not by her.

 

she's not showing giving or loving behavior. she knows you want this yet she's unwilling to participate... it's cruelty at best.

[NickFeek]

Good....family background is important. Aside from the recent issues....and while you brought up lack of sexual intimacy in the therapy sessions...did she bring up any lack of other intimacy in the sessions? This is important, because sometimes men tend to look at intimacy differently than women....for men, it can be more the physical than true intimacy.

In addition, sometimes women CAN get their feelings of true intimacy from their friends....that intimacy is understanding, compassion....a feeling of being safe in their own ideals, being allowed to have strengths and weaknesses...strength of character and weakness of character without being judged or criticized for it.

 

For men, intimacy with a woman is different than intimacy with friends...for obvious reasons....however; it tends to trend that men in relationships with strong women (and this can be from personality to financials) can feel emasculated. Now, having said that, emasculation can happen on either side...women can do that to men...overbearing personality, and men can do that to themselves due to depression and/or low self esteem.

Did that ever come up as an issue for you?

 

Her main interpersonal complaint is that I don't (or didn't) always listen to her when she is trying to tell me something difficult. And until recently she's been right about that. No other issues she brought up, though. And her most trusted confidants are her mother & sisters. She has friends, but hasn't had an intimate friend for a decade probably.

 

It bothers me that I don't contribute more financially, even though I have a good full-time job and was a stay-at-home dad for five years before that. I guess part of that is emasculating, but more that I wish I could lift more of her wage-earning burden and that she could see the kids more often. No, the biggest source of emasculation for me is an all but wasted sex life.

[NickFeek]

all that counseling for things to remain essentially the same or even worse? that isn't adequate.

 

you COULD easily view her work as her affair. many people use work to avoid the home life. same as an affair - keeps the partner absent and distant - at best.

 

what are YOU going to change? if things stay the same - you can expect more of the same.

 

IF she loves working that much - let her work. maybe suggest that you intend to find romance and intimacy without her - since her choice is to work all the time. seems fair, how can she expect to be connected to you when she's never available? why should you go for many more years without what you ultimately want - knowing full well she doesn't intend to provide that for you? if she loves you she should understand that since she's not going to provide that part of your marriage - that you certainly deserve to feel loved and wanted each day yo are alive... even if not by her.

 

she's not showing giving or loving behavior. she knows you want this yet she's unwilling to participate... it's cruelty at best.

 

There's an old saying: "The Law is a jealous mistress." And that definitely applies here. She'd never cheat, but the time & energy she spends at work at the expense of our marriage FEELS like cheating, or at least neglect.

 

I agree - I've felt so often that there must be something else I can change. And we have tried things by her rules almost to a tee now but that has not made things better.

 

I wish it would be as simple as getting her to agree that if she doesn't want that kind of intimacy (not to say we don't & wouldn't share other kinds), then I should be allowed to seek it elsewhere. I've even looked into the effects of a couple being "separated" while still living together for other reasons - financial, kids, closeness in other ways. And believe me this is all something I've considered, and would even try for a while. I'm just not sure it's sustainable in the long term. BUT you're right, I do feel like she's asking for no sex with others (perfectly reasonable) without providing any herself. I really appreciate hearing that I deserve to feel that. After what I've done I haven't been sure I do.

[TaraMaiden]

And this is where you are, right now....

[trippi1432]

Sheesh...I disagree Tara.

[trippi1432]

I will post a reply tomorrow Nick...been traveling all day and out with friends tonight...I want to post correctly to your personal situation...I feel it deserves proper insight to your specific situation.

[TaraMaiden]

Sheesh...I disagree Tara.

 

I don't see why.... but the link wasn't directed at you. The OP may find a grain of truth in it....

 

Obviously your opinion is your prerogative, but I just thought I'd mention it.

 

[trippi1432]

I don't see why.... but the link wasn't directed at you. The OP may find a grain of truth in it....

 

Obviously your opinion is your prerogative, but I just thought I'd mention it.

 

 

Sorry Tara, I know what you mean...and yeah, options and opinions should be given from every angle. I'm wondering myself if there isn't some other issues. I've been told by my IC that women in their 40's hit their sexual peak.

 

A sex hangup can be anything....and if she isn't open with the topic or is a hyper-sensitive person and turns her feelings inward, he may never know what that is.

[NickFeek]

Thanks to both of you for all your comments. Not used to this level of support!

 

Tara I think there is a grain of truth to what you posited. I don't think it's ever been as severe as that, but I do feel as though, like you said Trippi, that whatever it is that's blocking her has held a fair portion of my sexual life and expression hostage.

 

I know I've misstepped in many ways over the years, not just this recent mistake but in the ways I've responded to her intimacy problems. Haven't always been patient or helpful. But we HAVE tried to get to the bottom of her intimacy problem, and the best I can figure is her incredible fear of the subject is preventing her from ever getting deep enough. I know I've compounded the situation tremendously, but I've also tried a ton of approaches to help her thru this, and progress was glacial at best, and then after kids we took several steps backwards.

 

I still love her so much and really don't want to break up our family, but I'm beginning to wish there was a third way that my conscience could live with.

[trippi1432]

Her main interpersonal complaint is that I don't (or didn't) always listen to her when she is trying to tell me something difficult. And until recently she's been right about that.

 

And that is typical of a marriage and means better communication is needed...easily workable once the harder issues are handled.

 

No other issues she brought up, though. And her most trusted confidants are her mother & sisters. She has friends, but hasn't had an intimate friend for a decade probably.Hmm, every woman needs someone who can tell her to piss or get off the pot...and in retrospect, have someone she can counter-argue with. A smart person (not gender specific) never puts stock in anyone who easily agrees with a negative outcome. Her mother and sister are always going to side with her.

 

It bothers me that I don't contribute more financially, even though I have a good full-time job and was a stay-at-home dad for five years before that. And I am sure a darn good dad in every aspect...I don't doubt that you know that already...I don't even doubt that you have been told that actually. And if she didn't appreciate this...without you pointing it out to her..then she is no better than those husband's who downplay their SAH wives

 

I guess part of that is emasculating, but more that I wish I could lift more of her wage-earning burden and that she could see the kids more often.

That is compassionate and understandable...it is like a role reversal, but it should not be emasculating. Every contribution you make is important. I think it does tend to happen frequently where the woman has the higher earning potential, that men begin to feel emasculated because of those insecurities that they don't make more....but the contribution that you bring in the dynamic is more than just earning potential. It's emotional support, it's the other half of the whole, it's being a supportive partner. Was that explored in the therapy?

No, the biggest source of emasculation for me is an all but wasted sex life.

 

On that last sentence, it makes sense that this would be an area of importance for you, do you feel like this is where everything else shouldn't matter....her job, your earning contribution, who cleaned the kitchen, who cooked dinner...etc? Even playing field where you take the lead??

[NickFeek]

She is an accomplished and strong-willed person, and few people in her life have been able to challenge that, family included.

 

Thank you and yes, I do take pride in my parenting, and she and her whole family agree that my love and caring for my kids can't be disputed. But I have noticed that over the years she's become more resentful of having to be the primary breadwinner, and does not seem to feel that my child care, housework, book balancing, errand running, doctor taking, etc. is enough to compensate for that. And I'm certain that prior to my infidelity, her growing resentment played a large part in why she didn't feel comfortable being intimate with me.

 

To answer your last paragraph - YES!

[trippi1432]

She is an accomplished and strong-willed person, and few people in her life have been able to challenge that, family included.

 

Thank you and yes, I do take pride in my parenting, and she and her whole family agree that my love and caring for my kids can't be disputed. But I have noticed that over the years she's become more resentful of having to be the primary breadwinner, and does not seem to feel that my child care, housework, book balancing, errand running, doctor taking, etc. is enough to compensate for that. And I'm certain that prior to my infidelity, her growing resentment played a large part in why she didn't feel comfortable being intimate with me.

 

To answer your last paragraph - YES!

 

Very much to be proud of there Nick. I tend to think that her resentment is not aimed at you, more at her workload and the career she has taken on...it leaves her unbalanced and most likely, noticing the role-reversal. That can lead to a host of feelings from guilt, envy and regret...she may even be turning those feelings inward leading to her dissatisfaction. In addition, her feelings over the years are most likely due to the fact that woman tend to be nurturers...they don't let go of that even when they are strong-willed. Her roles of mother, wife and friend are mixed up...nobody's fault really, more a victim of circumstance due to the dynamics at play.

 

It sounds like you have a firm grasp of the dynamics and understandable that you feel that you get your masculinity back in the bedroom. That is also most likely the reason for the affair...although it was not the right thing to do, but the communication and meeting each other's needs in the marriage are a bit skewed right now.

 

What are some of the more successful ways the two of you have communicated in the past, where you felt that you were getting through to her about your needs? Obviously, there is a problem with her communicating her needs in the marriage...

[NickFeek]

That's a good way to look at it. I do agree that she feels trapped by her career and is absolutely hurting from not having enough time with the kids. I'm usually hopeful that she'll work to see her way to a better balance, but time again has shown that even with help she can't seem to get there.

 

Good question. We always communicate better in the daytime, when we're both lucid and calmer. Unfortunately our schedules rarely permit that, so we're stuck with one or both of us awake at odd hours, more emotionally sensitive, and things often feeling scarier than they really are. Doesn't make for smooth communication. Our best times talking have always been when we take a no-kids vacation or weekend, which we are now trying to do once a year. But as you can imagine, that's not nearly ample enough time to get very far.

[trippi1432]

You mentioned couple's counseling and other therapy....how much of that did she go to?

[NickFeek]

She did maybe 4 years individual in the mid 90s, related to a specific situation. When her therapist, whom she adored, tried to start exploring beyond that issue, she quit. She then tried another therapist in the early 2000s, didnt like her, again due to feeling like she was pushing to go too deep, and quit after only a few months. We then did couples for several months in 2002, but ran out money (insurance did not cover at the time), and also were not too fond of the therapist. I did individual from 1996-2007, most of that with one doctor. Nothing for either of us since then.

[trippi1432]

Well, I had a dynamic very similar...not exact, but similar. My exH refused to look at his issues, that was a huge problem for us. His were drinking, gambling and later, drugs. A shot or two of AA and Al-Alnon early in the relationship, couple's counseling where he wanted to buy a book to fix it, family therapy sessions later on where it was the kid's problems...not ours and two MC sessions at the end of our marriage where I needed to fix myself because I was the problem. I say our problem was that we never had true intimacy in our relationship, an acceptance of each other, did not know how to meet each other's needs without being selfish or without other expectations, conflict resolution and communication were horrible.

 

He would probably say that he felt emasculated because he didn't earn as much; however, he was not like you on running the house, kids...etc. I felt resentful that he didn't step up to the plate, he felt resentful because I didn't enable his issues. We didn't have the sex hangup issues though, that was the only place I could get intimacy (I should say any form of intimacy although physical intimacy is not enough for a woman to feel satisfied) and it is where he recovered his masculinity. Eventually though, we lost respect for each other and he left. And he did take up with someone else almost immediately (possibly an EA going on before he left).

 

If she won't talk about her issues with a therapist, you will never get her to that point. Some people will not budge to dive deeper in therapy. There is really nothing you can do about that. Your deep understanding of her and of yourself has really been the cornerstone of strength in your marriage. Where there are women who are very strong in their careers, it is not what they always truly want when they come home. I say this because who I am at work is NOT who I want to be when I come home...it's a balance issue. I hated coming home and having to be the adult, the decision-maker, the disciplinary...etc.

 

Like I said, different dynamic as it sounds like there is more understanding and compassion in your marriage than was in mine. I know you don't want to end your marriage, you both have so much emotional investment, children and actually sounds like you could make this work.... but the communication and conflict resolution are limited, due to the time you both actually spend together. She sounds a bit burned out....and it is showing up in the home-front. The bedroom topic is different as that seems to have been going on prior to everything else, correct?

[2sunny]

since she doesn't want to delve into the real issues of what has been driving her before you two were ever married - there's nothing you can do... except male decisions in the best interest of taking care of yourself.

 

a few things come to mind:

 

no sex for two years of marriage? THAT is concerning and raises a major red flag.

workaholic - which helps her blame shift - leaving her with resentment and not feeling connected to the family - which she complains about - but she DOES have choices! but she doesn't want to be responsible for her actions = yes, she does work too much and won't change that! (she CAN change it - she just chooses not to).

can get to the root of her problem but runs away as soon as a therapist brings it up.

deprives hubby of loving behavior and feeling connected.

 

from this perspective - there has been something that she doesn't wish to face - something while growing up that is too painful for her to get past.

 

you can't make her - nor can you make any of it better for her. she may spend her lifetime running from her past - are you willing to chase and complain at the same time? knowing she CAN do something about it and chooses to ignore it - knowing it's making her and everyone she loves unhappy - she still chooses it.

 

you can't fix it for her.

 

move forward. find a new way to be happy. let her and the baggage she's holding onto so tightly go. it's hers, not yours. since she has made the choice to NOT deal with it - she will never be happy and you will never be allowed to get close to her - she won't let you.

 

she hangs on to the pain knowing that it's causing harm... and you stand there asking her for change - and she's telling you she's not changing.

 

how much more does she need to slap you?

 

SHE'S not changing! accept it and learn to be miserable- or leave and find out how to be happy.

[NickFeek]

So sorry to hear all that, and I admire you for coming through it the way you did. I do think there are parallels to my situation.

"Your deep understanding of her and of yourself has really been the cornerstone of strength in your marriage."

That's a really nice thing to hear, and while it may be overstating it a little, I hate to say it's not far from the truth. She does acknowledge her faults & issues now & then, and does her best to make improvements. But to her the bottom line is this relationship doesn't work because of my issues - not exclusively but predominantly in her eyes. And there have been many many years when I believed that wholeheartedly. I just feel that in the last four or so years I've been too emotionally healthy to take that as a given anymore.

 

I hope you're right that we can still make this work, and some days I do feel that's true. We still have a lot of love & respect between us. I just don't want to continue to be this unhappy.

 

Yes, the bedroom topic has been ongoing for at least 20 years. I'm absolutely sure it's tied into her other issues, and like I've said I played a big part it perpetuating our dysfunction.

[trippi1432]

I have to say that I do agree with some of what 2 Sunny has said here....you cannot change her or fix it for her, she has to want to do that.

 

Something else, she is strong-willed and independent....she doesn't know how to be vulnerable and that affects the bedroom....whether it is something from her past that she won't admit or a trust issue, her lack of vulnerability obscures the intimacy.

 

Another question - how much do you lead in the personal relationship with your wife? A woman in your wife's position, strong-willed and independent typically tries to lead all the time...sometimes without even realizing it. Is there any balance in your marriage where sometimes you lead and where she does?