25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[soserious1]

2sunny, I have always suspected there was some kind of abuse, but anytime we talked about it she could not remember anything.

 

I agree she has been mostly talk. What I'm seeing now is if she will move to action now that she understands how do or die things are. And that's where the direct approach can work well.

 

I also agree that her MO is eerily similar to lying and cheating. And even if it's not actually that it feels that way to me.

 

The phrase "spending time together" to many guys means simply being in the same house, the woman tending to the bulk of household & child rearing chores while the husband relaxes. What,exactly is your definition of her "spending more time with you" ?

[2sunny]

2sunny, I have always suspected there was some kind of abuse, but anytime we talked about it she could not remember anything.

 

I agree she has been mostly talk. What I'm seeing now is if she will move to action now that she understands how do or die things are. And that's where the direct approach can work well.

 

I also agree that her MO is eerily similar to lying and cheating. And even if it's not actually that it feels that way to me.

 

it feels that way because it is cheating - it's just with work instead of a man.

 

the abuse is something she stiffed so far down she may not be capable of remembering it - or it's too painful every time she is forced to remember it. the work keeps her occupied and busy enough to avoid what she INTENDS to purposely avoid = intimacy... which is exactly what you keep begging for. that's why it feels like/looks like cheating.

 

she won't face it unless she's forced to - and even then - if forced, she may suffer huge emotional trauma just from remembering. you trying to get her to be more connected goes against what she's willing to do... to be emotionally vulnerable is like death to her. was she abandoned as a child? she may have issues getting attached - so survival says don't attach = attachment means pain and suffering... don't attach. just avoid attachment and work so there is no pain to face.

[soserious1]

[/b]That is just a gross overstatement. We live and work in NYC, and split of people we know is about 50-50, half work normal, salaried 40-hour weeks (like me). The other half work much more. Plus the real issue is balance. She can work all she wants and needs to, but if it's at the expense of our marriage then it's unacceptable. [/b]

 

Has it occured to you that her working "much more" allows you the freedom to take a 40 hour only job? Would you be as pissed if after working her 60 hrs, she came straight home and still did the bulk of the housework and put out more?

[2sunny]

Has it occured to you that her working "much more" allows you the freedom to take a 40 hour only job? Would you be as pissed if after working her 60 hrs, she came straight home and still did the bulk of the housework and put out more?

 

being accusatory isn't helpful... what are you trying to help with here?

 

stick with what we do have instead of "what ifs"

[soserious1]

being accusatory isn't helpful... what are you trying to help with here?

 

stick with what we do have instead of "what ifs"

 

2sunny, when people repeatedly resist what we are offering (in this case,spending more time with Nick) it's usually because they don't like

what's being offered. I think my question was a fair one, would Nick be happier if his wife managed to pick up a ton more of the household duties and had sex with him more even if she continued her current working hours?

 

To a lot of men, simply being in the same house qualifies as "spending time together" which is why so many of them end up shocked by wives stating they

want a divorce because they've grown apart, it's not exactly a rare state of affairs.

Edited April 24, 2011 by soserious1

[2sunny]

2sunny, when people repeatedly resist what we are offering (in this case,spending more time with Nick) it's usually because they don't like

what's being offered. I think my question was a fair one, would Nick be happier if his wife managed to pick up a ton more of the household duties and had sex with him more even if she continued her current working hours?

 

To a lot of men, simply being in the same house qualifies as "spending time together" which is why so many of them end up shocked by wives stating they

want a divorce because they've grown apart, it's not exactly a rare state of affairs.

 

you overlooked the significance of years of counseling - his wife only ran away from the help she intended to get when addressing matters she couldn't face. something is her roadblock. most likely abuse and/or abandonment. he can't fix that for her. her solution is run and hide and avoid facing it - by working. that can never be changed by him - no matter how much he begs or throws ultimatums at her.

[willowthewisp]

Actually I was not judging you when I made the comment about the length of your IC, I was merely trying to point out that perhaps the problems in this marriage are not all one sided.

 

I made the comment about how long it took me to respond to your post Nick because I wanted you to understand that perhaps there was a reason that I took so long to do that for a complete stranger.

 

I had written out a long response but decided it was best to delete it, I think you have already decided that your marriage is over, which is very sad because I honestly thought you were different to the usual leavers we get on here.

[NickFeek]

Soserious, to once again make something clearer for you, I do the bulk of the housework and I have no problem with that. And while I do appreciate what her job gives us the freedom to do, I would give it all up for more quality time. And by that I mean much more conversation, more date nights, and yes much more sex.

 

Consider this. A person can morally/ethically get fulfillment from friends, family etc. in every facet of life except one: sex. I was wrong to step out, but she has more or less been withholding the one thing I need that I can't and shouldn't get anywhere else. I was wrong. But so was she.

[NickFeek]

2sunny, you're digging deep into this in a way I've done with her periodically for years. And you're right that we can only get so far before hitting that same wall over and over again. I don't doubt that ive also often reacted poorly to this, probably as equally as I've acted with patience. But in the end she has to own this and want to work on it. And if she won't do it this year, I can't imagine she ever will.

[NickFeek]

Actually I was not judging you when I made the comment about the length of your IC, I was merely trying to point out that perhaps the problems in this marriage are not all one sided.

That is absolutely true, and I've been honest about that. But I still contend that my efforts at therapy to work on my problems were not matched on her side.

I made the comment about how long it took me to respond to your post Nick because I wanted you to understand that perhaps there was a reason that I took so long to do that for a complete stranger.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but I appreciate anyone who bothers to read and respond. Very very much.

I had written out a long response but decided it was best to delete it, I think you have already decided that your marriage is over, which is very sad because I honestly thought you were different to the usual leavers we get on here.

Funny you should say that since soserious believes the exact opposite. It's like a funhouse mirror maze in here . I get called out for defending my wife, called out for pointing out her faults, called out for pointing out my faults. And all any of this is is me trying to illuminate all sides without prejudice. I am on the fence about the relationship. Some of you see that as wanting to stay, some as wanting to leave. As of now it's both and neither.

[tojaz]

Nick, I've been watching this unfold and your getting a lot of good advice and a LOT of information. A lot of people can get overwhelmed by all of that so take your time and really think, not just the logical but the emotional as well, because in a time like this they are always going to be at odds. Logic can equate a bad marriage to a bad movie, if you don't like where its going you can just walk out and see something else. After all the movie is going to play the same if your in front of the screen or not, right????

 

Thats logic talking, and thats the same thing that tells you your unhappy and the most "logical" way to fix it. Thats what your acting on, I had a marriage like yours. She worked too much, gave up too much. Even though she was the one that wound up leaving, I had thought of it many times before then. I didn't because I loved her flaws and all, so i stuck it out and tried to make it better, but I went about it poorly.

 

I have one regret above all others in how me and my wife used to argue, and it created a rift over so many of the silliest things. That was because we ran the tit for tat continuously over things that seemed small but meant much much more yet I could never find the words to tell her and at times, her me.

 

Of all the projects, and workshops, and extra duties she would take on to further her career, that all meant much less time at home, much less time together. Her focus was such that we could be a hundred miles apart in the same room at times. Every new duty she took on I would try my best to combat. Yet I did it with logic, much like you have tried. "We don't need the money" "Someone else can do it" "What can i do to help"......

 

Sound familiar? All logical reasoning in why I would have a right to be unhappy, a right to make a request of her, and all quite far from the real reason I was bothered.

 

It varied quite a bit. Some were vague statements like "I'm not doing well." "I really need you to help." "I'm unhappy." Others were more specific like "We can't continue with a schedule like this." "I really need you to work on changing your work situation." "The kids miss you & want you to spend more time with them." "You don't need to make this much money. You can pull back a bit & we'll still be okay." "Can't you delegate more of your work?" "We never have any private time together." "What can I do to help?" I could list another 30 at least.

 

How many of those you list are close to the real reason you wanted to see her more? Or the reason your considering separation now?

 

Of course, as the months wore on, some of the comments went from even-tempered to frustrated, angry & accusatory - which I admit did not help matters, and may have further pushed her inward. But I'm still stumped as to what's going on with her that she could just trudge on knowing how unhappy I was without wanting to jump in and change things.

 

Much like DOT hit spot on, she may very well in her mind have made sacrifices that you do not get to see. Maybe there are cases she could have worked on, times she could have gotten ahead and turned it down. The work life balance is a hard one to maintain for someone in that sort of career.

 

Shes not going to jump in and change things until she knows why they need changing. Have you told her flat out how it makes you feel? Have you asked her why she feels so driven to work so much? Or explained the impact you felt it was having on your marriage and you from an emotional stand point? I think its time to think along those lines.

 

TOJAZ

[tojaz]

Actually I was not judging you when I made the comment about the length of your IC, I was merely trying to point out that perhaps the problems in this marriage are not all one sided.

That is absolutely true, and I've been honest about that. But I still contend that my efforts at therapy to work on my problems were not matched on her side.

If your looking at this like a competition, who gives the most, gets the most tries the hardest, then you might as well pack a bag right now! Thats not how it works, we all work on our issues and try in our own way and at our own pace. Look at the threads here! Some members get it after a handful of posts, some have to be beat over the head with a 2X4 for pages and pages! Its the end result that matters.

.

Funny you should say that since soserious believes the exact opposite. It's like a funhouse mirror maze in here . I get called out for defending my wife, called out for pointing out her faults, called out for pointing out my faults. And all any of this is is me trying to illuminate all sides without prejudice. I am on the fence about the relationship. Some of you see that as wanting to stay, some as wanting to leave. As of now it's both and neither.

 

Everyone will support their own point of view further colored by their own experiences. Some will support trying to rescue the marriage, others are quite quick to call for its end. Thats why early on i typically ask flat out what YOU would Like to see happen. Some come to justify their actions and gather support, others have honest questions and are looking for real help. Read the posts, take what you can use. leave the rest, those that want and can help will stick around, those that are unneeded will move on.

 

TOJAZ

[trippi1432]

Nick - I think the crux of it all is that you aren't seeking validation or justification....instead, you tend to completely rationalize your actions of the affair by the conflict in your marriage. However, the conflict is there in your marriage because neither you or you wife know how to resolve conflict.

 

Nothing changes overnight, which was why I applauded the long timeline you put up earlier in your postings. However, this is not just about what you need for the marriage dynamic to change...as you stated, you cannot live with the way things currently are. Your wife has needs that need to be met as well....and with all of her working, lack of balance and refusal to look at herself for those things...she probably doesn't even know what they are yet.

 

You may have to actually look at the fact that not all the dynamics you are wanting to change in the marriage happen...because she is allowed to have some input as well....and whether she faces her issues or not is up to her.

 

What you do need to look for is the middle ground where you both are getting your needs met and are able to resolve conflict without creating more conflict...something my exH and I couldn't do ourselves. Balance is a hard dynamic to work, marriage, life in general...there are two of you to consider.

 

Something that I admit to, my entire work/life balance changed after my exH left...I actually started changing it a year before he left because I did hear his complaints. But neither of us were very good at communicating our needs...even with MC. I got disgruntled that he didn't notice and nothing changed, he saw it as advantage to spend more time outside of the home. Even when a dynamic to the relationship shifts and you get what you ask for, it can still become a crux in the marriage if communication and conflict resolution are not worked on to make the relationship better. Keep DOT's advice handy....it is good advice.

[NickFeek]

Tojaz thank you for all of that! I appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

I agree it's s lot to take in, which is one reason why I'd never consider making a decision in this forum. The other is I eventually have to share what I'm learning and considering with my wife. I have felt the pull of logic and emotion. I read an extremely helpful paper/book I found online, written FOR a cheater BY a woman who was cheated on, and she said the same thing. It's a constant struggle but both have to be integrated for the outcome to be sustainable.

 

We've both also gone about things poorly at times, but for us the most glaring mistake has been to let years go by without doing anything. I'm glad that's changing now.

 

I know her career is important to her, and much of what you said does sound familiar. I also agree that if the balance shifts too far one way, everyone suffers, which is where we've been for a while.

 

" How many of those you list are close to the real reason you wanted to see her more? Or the reason your considering separation now?"

Well the real reasons can be simplified into two things: 1. Not enough alone time with her talking and just hanging; and 2. A stilted and infrequent sex life.

 

"Have you told her flat out how it makes you feel? Have you asked her why she feels so driven to work so much? Or explained the impact you felt it was having on your marriage and you from an emotional stand point?"

I have told her these things often. She is someone who needs to hear things ten times before they sink in. In this case something must really be blocking her because it's never quite sunk in.

[NickFeek]

Trippi, everything you said is true, and your last paragraph particularly hit home.

 

Believe me, I know the marriage won't work unless both of our needs are being met. And that this inevitably means finding compromises we can live with.

 

Wayyy back in this thread I think I wrote the three questions I will ask her next time we have a private convo. They are: 1. What do you need to be fulfilled in this marriage? 2. Here's what I need - do you feel you'll be able to do that? And 3. Where do you see us 3, 6, 12 months from now. I feel that all of those take into account both our needs, and if answered concretely could very well lead to a clear decision on both sides.

[trippi1432]

"Have you told her flat out how it makes you feel? Have you asked her why she feels so driven to work so much? Or explained the impact you felt it was having on your marriage and you from an emotional stand point?"

I have told her these things often. She is someone who needs to hear things ten times before they sink in. In this case something must really be blocking her because it's never quite sunk in.

 

Nick - Just recalling in the past you approached those things passively....not flat out. Just pointing that out.

 

Wayyy back in this thread I think I wrote the three questions I will ask her next time we have a private convo. They are: 1. What do you need to be fulfilled in this marriage? 2. Here's what I need - do you feel you'll be able to do that? And 3. Where do you see us 3, 6, 12 months from now. I feel that all of those take into account both our needs, and if answered concretely could very well lead to a clear decision on both sides.

 

Again, back to compromise....just as you have stated in the past posts, you tend to approach your needs passively...but you don't want to approach this discussion aggressively. There is a lot to consider and even within those questions, a lot to be negotiated to reach those compromises.

[NickFeek]

Trippi, all very true and thank you. I think the next step is to use what I've learned here in our next conversation, see what comes of it, and adjust from there.

[lovingwhatis]

Nick,

 

Glad it resonated. Since you are interested in changing he level of your perception, how about this perspective?

 

The bolded below, what if you realized that your fear of being hurt has completely created a situation that is an illusion? You talk about loving your wife, and seeking her love in return. i feel that loving with fear as a filter is not really love. Remember the times when you looked in the eyes of your newborn children? Chances are you were overcome by peace and love unlike others. There was no fear clouding anything, it was pure and completely eclipsed your mind. You were connected to your children at the heart.

 

It feels like you've not connected with your wife in this way, maybe ever. You are guarding your heart, because of a perceived fear that was there, not based on something that initially happened with her. Then the experiences in your M proved that fear was right. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

What would happen if you open your heart to her, Crack it open completely without the fear? I know it seems ludicrous from where your mind is, but it IS possible, make no mistake about it. So you are looking for a healing of your M? That healing is only possible if you can open your heart to yourself, love yourself, and then love her as she is. You've both been prisoners of your fears, two prisoners trying desperately to get from the other what you are afraid to perceive in yourselves.

 

BREAK YOUR HEART OPEN. It will be the biggest gift that you will give yourself, your children, your wife, and everyone else.

 

Wishing you peace and love.

 

 

 

 

Wow, this is a wildly brilliant post. And I applaud you for wading through all of this! To answer:

 

Who would I be without the thought "Divorce is the worst?"

--This one I'll need to contemplate because it's so hard for me to fathom.

 

This is who you get. Can you be OK with this?

--No.

 

Can you forgive yourself completely for the A and stop poisoning the environment with your guilt? What would happen in that case?*

--Yes I can, eventually. I think that would bring light and air into our discussions, stop me from responding too passively or defensively, and hopefully prompt her to want to move on as well. Among other things.

 

Can you begin to forgive her completely for not being there for you in the M, realizing that she did the very best she could given her mindset, and emotional abilities considering what she has gone through?

--I think I can. But I'm still hurting so much from it that I'm afraid to let it go for fear that things would end up being that way forever. I'll need to work really hard on this and the previous one.

 

Thanks for that Einstein quote. It really is what I'm trying to do.

[NickFeek]

Nick,

 

Glad it resonated. Since you are interested in changing he level of your perception, how about this perspective?

 

The bolded below, what if you realized that your fear of being hurt has completely created a situation that is an illusion? You talk about loving your wife, and seeking her love in return. i feel that loving with fear as a filter is not really love. Remember the times when you looked in the eyes of your newborn children? Chances are you were overcome by peace and love unlike others. There was no fear clouding anything, it was pure and completely eclipsed your mind. You were connected to your children at the heart.

 

It feels like you've not connected with your wife in this way, maybe ever. You are guarding your heart, because of a perceived fear that was there, not based on something that initially happened with her. Then the experiences in your M proved that fear was right. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

What would happen if you open your heart to her, Crack it open completely without the fear? I know it seems ludicrous from where your mind is, but it IS possible, make no mistake about it. So you are looking for a healing of your M? That healing is only possible if you can open your heart to yourself, love yourself, and then love her as she is. You've both been prisoners of your fears, two prisoners trying desperately to get from the other what you are afraid to perceive in yourselves.

 

BREAK YOUR HEART OPEN. It will be the biggest gift that you will give yourself, your children, your wife, and everyone else.

 

Wishing you peace and love.

I know exactly what you're talking about, both regarding the kids AND my wife. My last therapist said it's possible I never really learned what love is, and though I think that was a generalization, it does apply here. It seems like we both have been holding back from fear, keeping parts of ourselves hidden. It was a past-triggered response from the very beginning, and has become a bad habit that I hope we can break. Of course, I can't speak for her, but I CAN give this a try myself. I DO need to stop approaching it like, "I will if YOU will." We've done a lot of that too.

 

So my question then is, what might happen if I manage to break my heart open, and it's not reciprocated? I guess the only way to move on one way or another is to find that out. And believe it or not our latest conversations tell me that I'm getting there, and that she senses this. For her part I just can't speak conclusively yet.

 

Thanks again.

[Yumisekai]

The moment I read the first phrase of the second paragraph, was the moment I found the 2 root problems.

 

I'm going to be direct with you:

 

It is the careers of both of you that are putting your relationship into an end!

If career and time are not compatible with the both of you, it is a PROBLEM!

The effort and time you spend on your careers to be successful are taking away the free time you have to take care of your loved wife and kids.

 

It is so damn obvious that some people can't see it...

 

Career and family are NOT compatible. You either put your efforts and time to your career to be successful or you put your efforts and time onto your wife

 

and kids.

If you put your efforts into your career, you won't have time to take care of wife and kids. And vice-versa.

 

You choose to take care of your kids and wife or you choose to get your career on line.

 

Sexual commitment failure is the reflection of such lack of time. You don't even have time to see your wife. How can you come have sex with her?

 

Now that we cut the root problems raw, it's time to get a solution.

 

What can both of you possibly do to have time to love each other and take care of the kids, and STILL have time for whatever you want? This requires a

 

heavily established relationship. Make it obvious that both of you are going to discuss a LOT about it. I will give my best shot.

 

Arrange a way so that your careers stop being a problem to your relationship. One way is one of you quitting their careers. Another way is to raise a

 

business where money keeps coming 24/7, so there is absolutely no problem being held onto your relationship and kids. The latter one is the smart move.

 

Do NOT let money interfere in your relationship. Which one do you like the most? Your money or your wife and kids?

Are you willing to give up 25 years of commitment for money or give up money for 25 years of commitment?

 

25 years is a LOT. I respect so much time and I hope both of you do the same.

 

You can talk with your wife about these things. Wouldn't it be great if money stopped being a burden? Because now it IS a burden. It's making the commitment

 

fade away! Are you going to let it go? You need to prove your love to your kids and to your wife by making SURE money doesn't get into your way!

 

So, be smart to take the challenge (It will be a challenge), and if you succeed, you'll have a lifetime to take care of your beloved ones.

 

Feel free to PM here if it made you intrigued and interested, and wish to know more...

[lovingwhatis]

What will happen? That's the mystery of Life. You'll have to find out.

 

The only way to do it is to Trust as you take a step into the Unknown. There is no map, and no amount of knowledge can prepare you for it. You close your eyes and jump off the cliff. Fear says you will splash on the ground like a bug, but heart says that maybe instead you will fly. I will not give you any promises, nobody can. I am even hesitant to share my own experience, for you mind may co-opt that and look for the benefit of your action.

 

You open your heart the moment it hurts so much to keep it closed, that it just bursts open by itself. They call it surrender.

 

TRUST.

 

 

 

 

 

I know exactly what you're talking about, both regarding the kids AND my wife. My last therapist said it's possible I never really learned what love is, and though I think that was a generalization, it does apply here. It seems like we both have been holding back from fear, keeping parts of ourselves hidden. It was a past-triggered response from the very beginning, and has become a bad habit that I hope we can break. Of course, I can't speak for her, but I CAN give this a try myself. I DO need to stop approaching it like, "I will if YOU will." We've done a lot of that too.

 

So my question then is, what might happen if I manage to break my heart open, and it's not reciprocated? I guess the only way to move on one way or another is to find that out. And believe it or not our latest conversations tell me that I'm getting there, and that she senses this. For her part I just can't speak conclusively yet.

 

Thanks again.

[NickFeek]

This may be the first time in my life I'm ready. And I can't let my fear of her not being ready stop me from doing this.

[NickFeek]

Yumi, thank you for weighing in. I completely agree with your overall point, but I think you've missed some of the background.

 

I've managed to have a career and family, and find a balance that works for me. My wife, however, has not found that balance, and in fact year after year her hours get worse. I have very little regard for or connection to money. I do appreciate it for what it is, but I don't let it rule my life. I think in her heart she doesn't either, but her actions show otherwise.

 

So in essence you're right. It's a matter of us rebalancing her career/family. Tall task when she feels so trapped and unwilling. But it's now or never.

[lovingwhatis]

Then Jump!!

 

Ooohh, i got goose bumps when i read this!

 

The fears are an illusion. They are. I feel you already suspect this. That's wonderful! What i do when im experiencing fear is i sit on a park bench. If there is sun, even better. Connecting to nature short circuits the fear every time. You've been dreaming a nightmare most of your life, its time to Wake up.

 

This may be the first time in my life I'm ready. And I can't let my fear of her not being ready stop me from doing this.

[NickFeek]

For me ironically it's being in the middle of NYC. There's an eye of the storm calm I feel that I can't find anywhere else.

 

I think both of us have been living parallel nightmares, but I've been gradually waking up for a while. Time for me to go whole hog.