American Women: Why some stray in marriage

[AverageJoe]

BUT there is a vast difference between considering a group of people to have low desirability and actually trying to defecate upon them for being so in your eyes. It's the latter which tends to get me peeved.

 

Interesting.

 

If you are not one of them, what do you care?

[flying]

Interesting.

 

If you are not one of them, what do you care?

 

Oh, honestly. Because that's what people do on these boards? Can you really say that you've never read a post that bashed men, or American guys, or some group that you generally belong to and felt compelled to argue with it because to your own personal knowledge the statement was untrue?

 

I see that kind of argument posted here from time to time, and I think it's just facetious; we all respond to posts that irritate us. I mean, get real.

[flying]

Bringing out a few exceptions does not prove it wrong. How many truly happy relationships do you know?

 

I also know lots. Not that you will believe me; you tend to believe only what you want to believe and what makes you feel empowered.

[Untouchable_Fire]

You're missing my point. I'm saying that people who think foreign women are better than Americans because they'll shut up and put out and then make you a sandwich with a big smile on their face are dead wrong. People who think foreign women are automatically less materialistic than American women, by sheer virtue of living in developing countries, are wrong. People who go off and search for a Third World mail order bride might think they're getting a quiet, traditional servant to spread her legs on command and raise children without complaint, but they don't fully understand how gender roles in some of these cultures work.

 

Ha! Well those guys will discover their delusion within the first 5 minutes. Will they regret the choice... probably not.

 

Why? Because there is a massive difference between being married to a spitfire woman that doesn't take crap... even if it's your crap., and a sneaky snake that cheats the time she isn't feeling the relationship.. .

 

Sure, and to clarify, I'm not saying that women from cultures like mine are terrible or worse or anything like that. They're just different in what they expect and what they do in relationships. And in reality, women from my culture hold a lot of power, privately, even though they may not hold as much power as men in public. I think there are a lot of American men out there who don't understand that about women from my part of the world.

 

I want a woman like that! Most guys agree with me.

 

Who have you been talking to? Why do you think these guys want a sex robot that can cook meals?

 

My Highschool was about 30% Hispanic. I remember hanging out with one of my friends at a party and this guy across the room just out of the blue slaps his GF. She turns and grabs a mug from the counter and smacks him in the head with it. People rushed in to separate them... and they were screaming at each other in spanish. He was bleeding from the forhead.

 

My friend turned to me and said... If that girl is single at the end of the night... I want her number.

 

Guys find that kind of fire attractive! It makes passion really hot.

[Stung]

If you're attracted to women who are able to defend themselves, okay. But, uh, if you're attracted to 'passionate' women who get into barfights and drama, I think we just stumbled across the reason why you've had so much trouble with your exes all being cheaters.

[that girl]

Similarly, men who don't value American women are IMHO entirely within their rights to say so, to say it loudly and to refuse to date or marry them

A man who doesn't want to date American women has every right not to date them. So do women.

 

The problem is with the "saying it loudly." That is just bad manner and reflects on the person doing the proclaiming. I have no interest in lesbianism, it just isn't my thing. But I don't need to proclaim loudly how horrible lesbians are and how much better being a heterosexual is because I know that is just a personal preference and neither group is better than the other.

 

Also I was raised right.

 

Men and women don't even like each other anymore and if it were not for sexuality we would not deal with each other at all. The genders have vastly different experiences and vastly different points of view so it very much is us vs them.

This is your own issue. There are lots of men and women I like and who like me. You choose to make it us vs them.

 

All this talk of shaming is ridiculous. The entire premise of the thread is the shame and insult American women. The whole thread is filled with misogynistic rants against women and American women in particular.

 

Making sweeping generalizations about how evil American women are is no different than making sweeping generalization about how evil Blacks, Jews or gays are. You act like an intolerant idiot and you deserved to be shamed by the community at large.

 

I have a lot of compassion for people who are struggling over past hurts and betrayals. But my compassion ends when you start taking out your pain on other people.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I'm afraid that any thread that starts out like this has engendered all the hostility that it's garnered.

I'm sad that the OP and so many others have had bad experiences with women. I'm also sad for all the women who have been disenchanted by their experiences with men. Saying things about us like "for the most part they (we) are ALL amoral cheats compared to women in other countries" and "I don't think women in the U.S. are good mothers" doesn't set the stage for anything but negativity and defensive discourse.

I'M not an amoral cheat. I was / am a good mother. I have a very large and diverse group of friends and acquaintances, and cheating wives / bad mothers do not feature prominently among them. I am not inclined to try to "prove" this to people like the OP, but I AM inclined to want to smack them down for such an insulting post. Admittedly, it's a waste of time.

 

Sorry but I threw out some really solid reason's for feeling the way I do about it. I said this:

 

1. A higher percentage of women in America cheat than in most other countries. And in response I hear "men cheat too" which I suppose makes it Ok in your mind. Evidently it's Ok if other people do it too.

 

There is absolutely no denying that at this point in time women cheat at a percentage previously unseen in our history.

 

In fact there is a good chance that women have surpassed men in the adultery category because for men... it tends to be the same guys who cheat in every marriage/relationship... and they admit to it at a higher rate. Compared to a higher number of women who cheat and a lower number that admit to it.

 

Which explains the discrepancy between poll %'s and the percentages tracked by marriage counselors.

 

2. I posed the idea that American Women are not good mothers.

 

I need to finish reading through the thread, but it doesn't really seem anyone is sticking up for American "mothering skills" beyond a curt disagreement.

[Untouchable_Fire]

If you're attracted to women who are able to defend themselves, okay. But, uh, if you're attracted to 'passionate' women who get into barfights and drama, I think we just stumbled across the reason why you've had so much trouble with your exes all being cheaters.

 

I'm not much for barfights and drama, but I really do like passionate women.

 

Truth is though, that I've dated enough to say I don't really have a "type".

 

Seriously... I've really put some thought into the whole "Is it just me?" issue. I think I've blamed myself too much. Of the guys I interact with at work on a regular basis... over 60% are divorced with most of them having cheating wives. One I was with yesterday had his wife run off with another man and leave both of her little boys. The guy pays $36,000 a year in alimony, and she straight told him that when it runs out she wants the kids for child support.

 

It seems with the guys in my industry this is a very common story. I have my theory that it's because they get paid a lot and have to travel.

 

A man who doesn't want to date American women has every right not to date them. So do women.

The problem is with the "saying it loudly." That is just bad manner and reflects on the person doing the proclaiming. I have no interest in lesbianism, it just isn't my thing. But I don't need to proclaim loudly how horrible lesbians are and how much better being a heterosexual is because I know that is just a personal preference and neither group is better than the other.

Also I was raised right.

This is your own issue. There are lots of men and women I like and who like me. You choose to make it us vs them.

All this talk of shaming is ridiculous. The entire premise of the thread is the shame and insult American women. The whole thread is filled with misogynistic rants against women and American women in particular.

Making sweeping generalizations about how evil American women are is no different than making sweeping generalization about how evil Blacks, Jews or gays are. You act like an intolerant idiot and you deserved to be shamed by the community at large.

I have a lot of compassion for people who are struggling over past hurts and betrayals. But my compassion ends when you start taking out your pain on other people.

 

The point of this thread is to discuss an alarming trend that makes dating women in this country very difficult.

 

Is that fair for 35% of women who don't cheat? Not really. Because guys like me decide it's a bad gamble and look elsewhere.

 

I would have said before this that I was a fantastic guy to date! Now I would say that my trust issues make me feel somewhat damaged... even though you would not be able to tell until you get to know me very well.

 

Solution. Date women who have a culture that values family and fidelity. Does that mean I'm 100% safe? Nope, but I just droped my risk factor from 60% or higher to 20% which is acceptable.

 

Also... I'm not sure I could marry without a prenup anymore. Which is very unattractive to most women in this country.

[that girl]

Truth is though, that I've dated enough to say I don't really have a "type".

Other than not-American.

 

I think I've blamed myself too much.

Right because "Maybe I pick the wrong women" is way less healthy than "All American women are evil."

 

Because guys like me decide it's a bad gamble and look elsewhere.

You are bitter and angry at women, which I get. It also means you're not a catch yourself.

 

A higher percentage of women in America cheat than in most other countries. And in response I hear "men cheat too" which I suppose makes it Ok in your mind. Evidently it's Ok if other people do it too.

The link that you began this thread with said the exact opposite, it said more men cheated than women. Later you found a dodgy Craig's List study that showed more women cheating but it was far from reliable.

 

You are pretending facts exist which do not exist. The research on cheating is iffy and doesn't confirm what you want it to confirm.

 

There is absolutely no denying that at this point in time women cheat at a percentage previously unseen in our history.

Eh. The numbers are generally higher than they were in Kinsey's time, but as no one looked at cheating in a scientific way before the 1950s we really don't know what things were like in the 1920s or the 1640s.

 

In fact there is a good chance that women have surpassed men in the adultery category because for men... it tends to be the same guys who cheat in every marriage/relationship... and they admit to it at a higher rate. Compared to a higher number of women who cheat and a lower number that admit to it.

There is no evidence for this.

 

I posed the idea that American Women are not good mothers.

 

I need to finish reading through the thread, but it doesn't really seem anyone is sticking up for American "mothering skills" beyond a curt disagreement.

No one is standing up to it because it is a crazy generalization and most of the women hating has stuck to "All American women are whores."

 

Mothering/Parenting varies by culture, but the big things like responsiveness are common to all good parents. I have never seen any evidence that American mothers are at the bottom of the mothering totem pole. The overall belief of researchers in the field is that there are good parents in every culture and the number of good parents is pretty similar across cultures even if they do things a little differently.

 

This is a general review of one lab's cross cultural work that I think is a pretty good overview of parenting research (it is hard to find something that is full text on this subject) http://www.issbd.org/resources/files/newsletter_0404.pdf#page=18

 

 

"a consistent latent structure of parenting infants in nine societies"

 

"Mothers everywhere share feelings with their children and contribute to emotional exchanges via their affect-salient speech, just as they impart or confirm cognitive information referential of children’s perceptual experiences."

 

Relevant for your desire for a foriegn woman to bear your children

"We also found that parenting behaviors acculturate more quickly and readily than do parenting beliefs among acculturating mothers."

(Meaning immigrant mothers tend to adopt many of the parenting behaviors of the local culture)

 

Your generalizations are as silly as they are offensive. Sure, there are many cultiral differences out there, but there are as many good people as bad people in every country.

Edited September 17, 2010 by that girl

[Stung]

2. I posed the idea that American Women are not good mothers.

 

I need to finish reading through the thread, but it doesn't really seem anyone is sticking up for American "mothering skills" beyond a curt disagreement.

 

I could detail for you the sacrifices and responsibilities and exhaustion and tremendous life-alterations and small hilarities and towering joys of my life as a mother, but that's the deepest part of my soul. Why should I expose this to you, when you have given me no reason to believe that you would show it any respect? Why bathe myself in negativity trying to coddle a stranger on the internet out of his case of the grumps, when I need that energy to devote to actual children?

 

I know what I am as a mother and I have no need to defend myself or all the other American mothers I know and have known to you.

[meerkat stew]

Why bathe myself in negativity trying to coddle a stranger on the internet

 

Why are you posting then?

[meerkat stew]

 

Right because "Maybe I pick the wrong women" is way less healthy than "All American women are evil."

 

 

OP, you are emotionally unhealthy.

 

 

You are bitter and angry at women, which I get. It also means you're not a catch yourself.

 

 

 

OP, you are bitter and angry.

 

 

OP, you are unattractive.

 

 

 

You are pretending facts exist which do not exist.

 

OP, you are delusional.

 

 

Eh. The numbers are generally higher than they were in Kinsey's time, but as no one looked at cheating in a scientific way before the 1950s we really don't know what things were like in the 1920s or the 1640s.

 

 

OP, you are not allowed to make raw conjectures in support of your position.

 

 

No one is standing up to it because it is a crazy generalization and most of the women hating has stuck to "All American women are whores."

OP, I am allowed to make raw conjectures in support of my position.

 

 

OP, you are crazy.

 

 

Textbook. QED.

 

OP, you are a misogynist.

Edited September 17, 2010 by meerkat stew

[elaina]

Anyone who chooses their professional life over their family is pretty much trash in my book. Money should never be that important. That goes for men too. I can understand in short term bursts to get financially solvent... but that's it.

 

Ok... lets say 65% of women in America are worthless as wives and mothers. I think that is a fair number. So that leaves 35% as quality.

t

Now... I just need some kind of test to differentiate the two.

 

I don't think it's good or productive to call anybody worthless. The wives and mothers anywhere in the world who are struggling need help and need to surpass whatever is making them not excel, but they are not worthless. They just need help, good role models, self-motivation, positive action/change, and encouragement. Calling them worthless doesn't encourage but only puts them down.

 

Instead of calling them worthless, wouldn't it be better to encourage them to succeed? Sad to say, when people are called something, sometimes they start believing it. When a person calls a child "stupid", the child eventually believes it, especially if she/he is called that over and over by an important person in the child's life. If a person positively motivates a child however, by giving more and more advanced opportunities for success, so that the child gains more and more milestones of victories, the child wins so much more than being called names!

 

So, I resent your saying that any wife or mother is worthless. Rather, there are wives and mothers all over the world who need to improve, but that doesn't make them worthless!

[theBrokenMuse]

Interesting.

 

If you are not one of them, what do you care?

Well in this case I do happen to belong to said group as I am an American woman, wife and mother... however I have stuck up for many groups on messages boards over the years which I do not belong to and even ones I tend to disagree with on the whole (like I did when some other atheists were trying to assert that theists are ALL unintelligent people) simply because something that is said strikes a nerve with me.

 

I haven't really been that introspective on why some comments that are completely unrelated to me on the whole make me feel the need to jump into the fray and some ultimately do not but it's certainly something worth looking into. Thanks for the comment, it made me think.

[Woggle]

There are mothers and wives who are worthless just like there are fathers and husbands. I hate to say this about my own mother but I can't think of one redeeming quality about her and she also pulled the same crap about using me for child support. She admitted she never loved me but she would never give my father custody because that would be letting a man win and I meant more child support.

 

Instead of getting offended why don't the good women on here at least attempt to understand where this comes from? If you really are not anti-male and I am not accusing anybody of being why not at least try to empathize with our experiences instead of getting defensive when we vent online which in many cases is the only outlet a man has.

[theBrokenMuse]

I hate to say this about my own mother but I can't think of one redeeming quality about her and she also pulled the same crap about using me for child support. She admitted she never loved me but she would never give my father custody because that would be letting a man win and I meant more child support.

 

I feel for you Woggle, I really do. My Dad seemed to resent the hell out of me and was very nasty and unfeeling towards me because I think he blamed me (being conceived outside of wedlock) for being in a mismatched marriage due to a shotgun wedding (his family was very religious and strict about that stuff. He would have been disowned). Yet while my experiences with him were pretty bad I have had friends who had really great Dads who loved them to pieces so I know that ultimately I simply got dealt a bad hand as far as Dads go.

[flying]

There are mothers and wives who are worthless just like there are fathers and husbands. I hate to say this about my own mother but I can't think of one redeeming quality about her and she also pulled the same crap about using me for child support. She admitted she never loved me but she would never give my father custody because that would be letting a man win and I meant more child support.

 

Instead of getting offended why don't the good women on here at least attempt to understand where this comes from? If you really are not anti-male and I am not accusing anybody of being why not at least try to empathize with our experiences instead of getting defensive when we vent online which in many cases is the only outlet a man has.

 

Instead of talking about "all" or "most" women, why not stick to describing your personal experiences and looking for empathy with those? If you really are not anti-woman, why not at least try to empathize with why making blanket statements would be offensive?

[Untouchable_Fire]

I don't think it's good or productive to call anybody worthless. The wives and mothers anywhere in the world who are struggling need help and need to surpass whatever is making them not excel, but they are not worthless. They just need help, good role models, self-motivation, positive action/change, and encouragement. Calling them worthless doesn't encourage but only puts them down.

Instead of calling them worthless, wouldn't it be better to encourage them to succeed? Sad to say, when people are called something, sometimes they start believing it. When a person calls a child "stupid", the child eventually believes it, especially if she/he is called that over and over by an important person in the child's life. If a person positively motivates a child however, by giving more and more advanced opportunities for success, so that the child gains more and more milestones of victories, the child wins so much more than being called names!

So, I resent your saying that any wife or mother is worthless. Rather, there are wives and mothers all over the world who need to improve, but that doesn't make them worthless!

 

Self fulfilling prophecies can be very powerful both in a positive and negative direction.

 

If a woman cannot be faithful she is worthless to me. That is different than worthless as a person.

 

If she cannot perform the minimum requirements of motherhood she is similarly of little or no value to me. Again this bears no reflection on her value as a person.

 

Does that make sense to you?

[BS76]

Instead of talking about "all" or "most" women, why not stick to describing your personal experiences and looking for empathy with those? If you really are not anti-woman, why not at least try to empathize with why making blanket statements would be offensive?

 

There's absoloutely nothing wrong with judging a group for the actions of it's majorty. For the women that offends, who consider themselves exceptions to the rule, tough luck.

[GooseChaser]

There's absoloutely nothing wrong with judging a group for the actions of it's majorty. For the women that offends, who consider themselves exceptions to the rule, tough luck.

That's not true; though it can help in organizing information about people in your mind, it's not good to generalize.

[donnamaybe]

Yep, it's a sad thing that all the American men in here appear to feel their mothers were, at best, ineffective.

 

MY mom was/is a gem!

[GooseChaser]

Yep, it's a sad thing that all the American men in here appear to feel their mothers were, at best, ineffective.

 

MY mom was/is a gem!

Not to mention sisters and daughters!

[Untouchable_Fire]

Other than not-American.

Right because "Maybe I pick the wrong women" is way less healthy than "All American women are evil."

You are bitter and angry at women, which I get. It also means you're not a catch yourself.

The link that you began this thread with said the exact opposite, it said more men cheated than women. Later you found a dodgy Craig's List study that showed more women cheating but it was far from reliable.

You are pretending facts exist which do not exist. The research on cheating is iffy and doesn't confirm what you want it to confirm.

Eh. The numbers are generally higher than they were in Kinsey's time, but as no one looked at cheating in a scientific way before the 1950s we really don't know what things were like in the 1920s or the 1640s.

There is no evidence for this.

No one is standing up to it because it is a crazy generalization and most of the women hating has stuck to "All American women are whores."

Mothering/Parenting varies by culture, but the big things like responsiveness are common to all good parents. I have never seen any evidence that American mothers are at the bottom of the mothering totem pole. The overall belief of researchers in the field is that there are good parents in every culture and the number of good parents is pretty similar across cultures even if they do things a little differently.

This is a general review of one lab's cross cultural work that I think is a pretty good overview of parenting research (it is hard to find something that is full text on this subject) http://www.issbd.org/resources/files/newsletter_0404.pdf#page=18

"a consistent latent structure of parenting infants in nine societies"

"Mothers everywhere share feelings with their children and contribute to emotional exchanges via their affect-salient speech, just as they impart or confirm cognitive information referential of children’s perceptual experiences."

Relevant for your desire for a foriegn woman to bear your children

"We also found that parenting behaviors acculturate more quickly and readily than do parenting beliefs among acculturating mothers."

(Meaning immigrant mothers tend to adopt many of the parenting behaviors of the local culture)

Your generalizations are as silly as they are offensive. Sure, there are many cultiral differences out there, but there are as many good people as bad people in every country.

 

I think it is well established that not all women in America are bad. I think I've said that in a great many posts. I believe the percentages of quality ones are much lower than in other cultures.

 

Have you not understood that part? Or are you intentionally trying to misrepresent me?

 

I could detail for you the sacrifices and responsibilities and exhaustion and tremendous life-alterations and small hilarities and towering joys of my life as a mother, but that's the deepest part of my soul. Why should I expose this to you, when you have given me no reason to believe that you would show it any respect? Why bathe myself in negativity trying to coddle a stranger on the internet out of his case of the grumps, when I need that energy to devote to actual children?

I know what I am as a mother and I have no need to defend myself or all the other American mothers I know and have known to you.

 

You have nothing to prove in this category. Just based on how you approach topics, overall perspective and general attitude I have no doubts that your children and SO are lucky to have you.

 

That does not mean it's the case with the rest of the population. I know lots of mothers in America. I know many are very good.

 

I also see a jaw dropping amount that are not good.

 

The assumption that I unrealistically think "All women this" or "All women that" is simply untrue. I judge and value people individually. I also judge and value cultures individually.

 

I believe that the mainstream culture and laws in the U.S. take what would in other circumstances be fantastic women and make them ridiculously selfish and expectant. In women who grow up in a strong family this cultural influence is greatly lessened. I also think some women are born with personalities that are immune to it's influence. However the overall trend is very bad and as it continues to take a wrecking ball to the family unit the percentage of women who turn out sociopathically selfish increases exponentially to a point where it's uncommon to meet one who is not.

 

Also... I have some very strong opinions about how our culture marginalizes boys and basically creates some really good men and some really bad men... removing much of the middle ground other cultures have.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Yep, it's a sad thing that all the American men in here appear to feel their mothers were, at best, ineffective.

MY mom was/is a gem!

 

My mother was quite good. She is from a different generation, as I suspect yours is as well. Different generation... different culture!

 

I assume your mother didn't leave you at home all night while she hit up bars and nightclubs. She didn't walk out on you. Didn't constantly drag random men home. Didn't ignore you or the importance of your education... ect.

[GooseChaser]

My mother was quite good. She is from a different generation, as I suspect yours is as well. Different generation... different culture!

 

I assume your mother didn't leave you at home all night while she hit up bars and nightclubs. She didn't walk out on you. Didn't constantly drag random men home. Didn't ignore you or the importance of your education... ect.

It's all about being mature and responsible, and taking one's duties (ie., motherhood) seriously. It's a good way to approach life.