American Women: Why some stray in marriage

[donnamaybe]

My mother was quite good. She is from a different generation, as I suspect yours is as well. Different generation... different culture!

 

I assume your mother didn't leave you at home all night while she hit up bars and nightclubs. She didn't walk out on you. Didn't constantly drag random men home. Didn't ignore you or the importance of your education... ect.

And all the women in MY circle of friends don't do these things either. However, of COURSE there are ALWAYS going to be these types of people. And NEWSFLASH! There are more MEN like this in the US than WOMEN! I work in criminal law. I know this FOR A FACT!

[Stung]

Why are you posting then?

 

OP made a hurtful statement and then wondered why more people weren't debating it with him. I gave him a partial answer as to why I personally chose not to wade deep into those waters.

 

I didn't realize that coddling people out of painful beliefs was the only reason to post online. Is that what you've been doing all this time, then?

[flying]

My mother was quite good. She is from a different generation, as I suspect yours is as well. Different generation... different culture!

 

I assume your mother didn't leave you at home all night while she hit up bars and nightclubs. She didn't walk out on you. Didn't constantly drag random men home. Didn't ignore you or the importance of your education... ect.

 

Many of my friends have small children, and none of them do this stuff. Not one. It's not about the generation.

[Mme. Chaucer]

A man who doesn't want to date American women has every right not to date them. So do women.

 

The problem is with the "saying it loudly." That is just bad manner and reflects on the person doing the proclaiming. I have no interest in lesbianism, it just isn't my thing. But I don't need to proclaim loudly how horrible lesbians are and how much better being a heterosexual is because I know that is just a personal preference and neither group is better than the other.

 

Also I was raised right.

 

 

This is your own issue. There are lots of men and women I like and who like me. You choose to make it us vs them.

 

YES

 

All this talk of shaming is ridiculous. The entire premise of the thread is the shame and insult American women. The whole thread is filled with misogynistic rants against women and American women in particular.

 

NO KIDDING. If the OP and his supporters want to post that kind of stuff, they can, but to then attempt to stifle opposing posts by decrying the "femspeak shaming techniques" employed is just ... well, what I want to say would be too shaming for the male audience of this thread, so I won't say it.

 

If people decided to call out all "entitled white male patriarchal condescension" language used on this board, there would no longer be any discussion at all. All threads would just decompose into folks taking exception to how others choose to express themselves.

 

Making sweeping generalizations about how evil American women are is no different than making sweeping generalization about how evil Blacks, Jews or gays are. You act like an intolerant idiot and you deserved to be shamed by the community at large.

 

ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I brought this up much earlier but was stymied by a barrage of entitled white male patriarchal condescension.

[donnamaybe]

NO KIDDING. If the OP and his supporters want to post that kind of stuff, they can, but to then attempt to stifle opposing posts by decrying the "femspeak shaming techniques" employed is just ... well, what I want to say would be too shaming for the male audience of this thread, so I won't say it.

 

If people decided to call out all "entitled white male patriarchal condescension" language used on this board, there would no longer be any discussion at all. All threads would just decompose into folks taking exception to how others choose to express themselves.

 

I brought this up much earlier but was stymied by a barrage of entitled white male patriarchal condescension.

 

BEAUTIFUL!!!

[Untouchable_Fire]

NO KIDDING. If the OP and his supporters want to post that kind of stuff, they can, but to then attempt to stifle opposing posts by decrying the "femspeak shaming techniques" employed is just ... well, what I want to say would be too shaming for the male audience of this thread, so I won't say it.

If people decided to call out all "entitled white male patriarchal condescension" language used on this board, there would no longer be any discussion at all. All threads would just decompose into folks taking exception to how others choose to express themselves.

 

So your now a racist?

 

And all the women in MY circle of friends don't do these things either. However, of COURSE there are ALWAYS going to be these types of people. And NEWSFLASH! There are more MEN like this in the US than WOMEN! I work in criminal law. I know this FOR A FACT!

 

Well, for what it's worth... I'm glad those guys are going to jail.

[GooseChaser]

So your now a racist?

That isn't exactly racist, at least in my opinion, though it is a generalization. Unless it's racist against white people. I dunno.

[Mme. Chaucer]

So your now a racist?

 

Oh, dude. Once again, I was IRONICALLY playing on the whole shaming shenanigans.

 

I sincerely hope that you have some experiences coming up in your life that will enable you to see outside of your narrow tunnel.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Where is some? It doesn't exist. Not even a nice try.

 

We all can read for ourselves the belittling patriarchal condescending angry white dude manspeak in most of your posts on this thread, if we want to. Here's just one tiny example (in reference, I believe, to myself):

 

"Yet that escapes their shriveled, brainwashed minds somehow. Again, couldn't make this stuff up. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction where feminist borg-parrots are concerned."

 

And finally, because I'm such a nice guy, I've told you three times now how to rectify your shaming, personally insulting habits. Maybe it will sink in this time.

 

Discuss the topic, the words of the topic rather than what posting it may imply about the poster. Remove "You are" statements in favor of "You say" statements. Amazing that's so difficult for you and others.

 

Tell you what. You post just exactly like I want you to, and I'll consider returning the favor. 'Kay?

 

You are not going to be able to stifle my or anyone's opinions or chosen use of language by your feeble attempts at labeling it as "wrong." If you can't deal with the way I write, make it easy on yourself and simply don't read my posts.

 

I will say that I'd be surprised if you find "you are" statements in my posts. I'm not inclined to go back and read through them all to staunchly defend that, but it's absolutely not my style and I've done a lot of writing.

 

Is this rule of yours only applicable to female posters? Female posters who don't support your position? Thought so.

[flying]

And finally, because I'm such a nice guy, I've told you three times now how to rectify your shaming, personally insulting habits. Maybe it will sink in this time.

 

Discuss the topic, the words of the topic rather than what posting it may imply about the poster. Remove "You are" statements in favor of "You say" statements. Amazing that's so difficult for you and others.

 

My goodness. This isn't shaming at all, particularly the condescending nasty bits in bold.

 

"I've told you three times to stop hitting your brother! Do I have to stop the car??"

 

Oh, meerkat. How you do go on.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Flying, how many times do I have to tell you. Shaming language is only prohibited from WOMEN. Men are permitted to fling insults willy nilly. Specially when the men are trying to teach us a lesson.

 

Spank me!

[flying]

Flying, how many times do I have to tell you. Shaming language is only prohibited from WOMEN. Men are permitted to fling insults willy nilly. Specially when the men are trying to teach us a lesson.

 

Spank me!

 

LOL <-- no seriously, I really did laugh out loud.

[donnamaybe]

My goodness. This isn't shaming at all, particularly the condescending nasty bits in bold.

 

"I've told you three times to stop hitting your brother! Do I have to stop the car??"

 

Oh, meerkat. How you do go on.

Shameful, isn't it?

[denise_xo]

Wow, this thread is hysterical. It's actually better than going out hitting the bars and night clubs while leaving my five children at home or constantly dragging random men to my flat.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Aw, come on. What could be better than that?

[denise_xo]

Aw, come on. What could be better than that?

 

Yeah, well, on second thoughts. It's genetically wired, after all. That's why I need a man to keep me in check.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Oh, dude. Once again, I was IRONICALLY playing on the whole shaming shenanigans.

I sincerely hope that you have some experiences coming up in your life that will enable you to see outside of your narrow tunnel.

 

No weaseling out of this one! You straight up made a racist comment. You intentionally inferred that "patriarchal and entitled" males are white.

 

There is no irony in that.

 

If you don't like white people you should keep it to yourself!

[Untouchable_Fire]

Wow, this thread is hysterical. It's actually better than going out hitting the bars and night clubs while leaving my five children at home or constantly dragging random men to my flat.

 

Because nobody ever really does that. That's why the sarcasm is so funny!

 

Or... maybe it does happen... and your just having a laugh at the expense of the people who have to live with that kind of scenario.

[denise_xo]

Because nobody ever really does that. That's why the sarcasm is so funny!

 

Or... maybe it does happen... and your just having a laugh at the expense of the people who have to live with that kind of scenario.

 

I'm having a laugh at the suggestion that it applies across a generation. I have lived with it. In my home, it was my father who did this, not my mother. I don't generalise his behaviour to all men, or to all men of a certain generation.

[BS76]

Where is some? It doesn't exist. Not even a nice try.

 

BTW, the term "patriarchal" describes a class that does not, and never did exist. The fact is that, for 95% of the population, male and female, human history has been a grim spectacle of fast death. Life and any rights for all but a tiny few was controlled by the king (or queen, ironically, MOSTLY by the queen in the last 300 years... get that? THE QUEEN... what kind of patriarchy would allow itself to be governed by a QUEEN?) and church entirely. And here's some news for you, that tiny privileged aristocratic few was composed of females just as much as males. This is plain historical fact as opposed to some "made-up" patriarchy class that beset oppression upon women.

 

Women were kept out of danger because they and their children had a tendency to DIE during childbirth, or to diseases after. My great grandmother had NINE children, TWO survived. Her body was permanently weakened by childbirth. Children were needed to help do the hard labor, so it was a Catch 22, undertake the dangerous reproductive process because you had to have the children to survive.

 

All of men's "jobs" that were denied women consisted of either 1) backbreaking unautomated agriculture or mill work, or 2) Stabbing a spear in another man who was trying to stab a spear in you. Work done in the home was equally brutal for women permanently weakened by childbirth. Disease was rampant, life expectancy short. But I suppose there was some patriarchy in the background, holding women back. "Hey, I want to pull turnips 14 hours a day too!! Hey I want to die watching my entrails roll out of a wound too!!" And the chortling "patriarch" twiddles his moustache with glee, "Fie on thee woman! I will hoard all those 'glamour jobs' dying out in the field and dying on the battlefield for ME and my bros!! Get back to the shelter where the oppressive -safety- will crush your spirit, bwahahahaha!"

 

So watch all your beloved historical TV dramas that focus only on the aristrocracy and infinitesimally small middle class. That's right, of course you don't realize that most period fiction concentrates on 2% of the population. Wake up to that now and you may start to learn the truth about the "patriarchy."

 

Someone is typing, "but but but the vote! the vote!" Fact is that NO ONE, male or female, but property owners (a tiny, tiny minority) could vote before 1850, and successful women's suffrage campaigns were begun almost immediately thereafter, though it was 1920 before the actual Constitutional amendment was ratified, women in many jurisdictions had been voting for years. There was no -fight- for suffrage, that's an utter feminist lie. Women asked for the vote, women got the vote. No bloodshed, no strife, no "hard fought" campaign.

 

Same with jobs. The very historical instant the economy diversified into non life threatening work and infant mortality reduced, women were PULLED into the workplace. They didn't march defiantly into it, just another feminist lie they were PULLED in because the economy desperately needed them and their lives were no longer threatened by the nature of day to day work. Children were less necessary for survival due to greatly reduced mortality and medical advances (invented by MEN).

 

The cold war needed workers, the left needed voters, and women were conned into believing the "wretched" lives they had before were due to some patriarchy "keeping them out" as opposed to the truth that things were wretched for all.Tom Sawyer or Brer Rabbit couldn't have done a better job. What's it feel like to be gullible political pawns, ladies?

 

The reason you don't like being called for shaming, Chaucer, is because your posts, the words themselves, are literally brimming with it, and often with no other substance than the shaming language. In fact you are the poster here that uncorked the "shaming" genie and caused all the derivative mess in this thread to begin with. It's all you've got in the way of discussion. You have proven yourself time and time again as either incapable or unwilling to address any topic in a direct, honest way, here and in other threads. But I suppose calling attention to that plain fact of your posts and post history here makes me some sort of "patriarchist" :lmao: and not merely someone who expects people to discuss issues in an adult, reasonable way.

 

And finally, because I'm such a nice guy, I've told you three times now how to rectify your shaming, personally insulting habits. Maybe it will sink in this time.

 

Discuss the topic, the words of the topic rather than what posting it may imply about the poster. Remove "You are" statements in favor of "You say" statements. Amazing that's so difficult for you and others.

 

Best post I've read all week!

[tami-chan]

You should not have to explain,but thank you that you did anyway, Stew!

[Mme. Chaucer]

No, because it is talking about a POST, not a PERSON.

I shouldn't have to explain these distinctions, it is sad that I have to.

 

It's just the burden a condescending, patriarchal white man (not you, of course, Meerkat Stew - I don't know your gender, race, or even whether you are an actual human being) has to bear.

 

Thank goodness somebody is here to teach us all a lesson!

[theBrokenMuse]

A generalization is not a personal insult, or even an insult at all.

This is only partially correct. Generalizations can be used as a means of indirect insult and those who have the knack for it know how to wield that very subtle weapon with great accuracy.

 

When I see the generalization, "all men with giant penises are stupid," though I have a giant penis, I know I'm not stupid, so I am not offended.

Well if I were to say, "meerkat stew is stupid", you would still have the same knowledge (that you are not stupid) so therefore according to your logic, it should really be treated no differently.

 

the generalization is only as offensive as ONE LETS IT BECOME.

Well, really that goes for EVERY insult. We are the ones who decide to take things to heart, or not. However, I am very interested to know if you feel there is any difference between making sweeping negative generalizations about someone's sex and any other sweeping generalization about a person that happens to be interwoven with their identity.

 

Generalizations are the way we learn most of what we learn... inductively.

Exactly why we have some responsibility in not spreading memes so damn haphazardly.

 

censorship, which at least one poster in this thread has promoted and defended.

Yup still will too as this thread ended up as the massive trainwreck I thought it would. Wholly unproductive and divisive.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I'm having a laugh at the suggestion that it applies across a generation. I have lived with it. In my home, it was my father who did this, not my mother. I don't generalise his behaviour to all men, or to all men of a certain generation.

 

I'm not applying it to everyone and across a whole generation.

 

I'm talking about a behavior type that was very rare and looked down upon and is now becoming much more common and considered acceptable.

 

For the record it's not the fathers I see taking care of the children in the meantime... it's most often the Grandparents or Grandma.

[theBrokenMuse]

personal insults are much more damaging than mere generalizations.

That really depends on the person, insult and circumstances.

 

If the generalization rises to the level of a cultural mainstay, or stereotype, that is wrong, and should be addressed.

but by then it has already spread enough to make it damn near impossible to stomp it out which is a small part of the reason why negative generalizations are looked down upon so much.

 

some guy posting that on a forum somewhere is relatively benign.

Well... except that it doesn't always stay benign. Perpetuating an us versus them mentality through gross over generalization among like minded individuals who in turn validate and feed off of one another's rhetoric can not only keep someone bogged down in an emotional quagmire of perpetual anger but sometimes push someone who is already unstable to very unpleasant places.

 

If you find it offensive, that's fine, say so without impugning the character of the person stating it. If your entire response to the generalization is to discredit it merely because it is a generalization, you've said nothing,

Sure I have. I have said that it is an emotionally based non-argument pulled from out someone's arse so if it is to be taken seriously, reword it in a way that if it were a 'pervasive stereotype' you would not be taken to task.

 

 

I don't give any credence to the un-word "meme," if you want to define it, or offer an accepted variant in standard English, I will happily respond.

How can you even decide upon giving something credence if you have no idea what it is you are referring to? Here's the dictionary definition for you:

"an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture" There is a subcategory for "internet memes" as well.

 

 

 

Glad you learned something about what happens when posters attempt to shout down the poster as opposed to simply commenting on what is posted

hate to disappoint but I said it turned into the train wreck I had expected, not that things had gone in a manner I hadn't expected and what happened is a bunch of people got pissy, nothing good or useful came of it at all.

 

better still, if one finds a topic futile or puerile, simply don't post in that thread.

Unless I find something about it worth mentioning, I normally do.

 

Ironic the number of views and posts this thread has gotten due merely to the attempt to "shout down" the OP, isn't it?

Your conclusion is based on what? I mean, I think it is much more likely that people are enjoying the fighting and drama.

 

Without such, I wouldn't have posted at all, bet many others feel similarly, and the thread would have probably died a fast, ignoble death. :lmao:

I'm not really concerned with the length of it's shelf life... I am more interested in the fact that it didn't go unchallenged.

 

Get used to more and more people questioning those kinds of discussion tactics on the net, not just here.

Dun, Dun, Dun!! Am I supposed to care or something?

Edited September 18, 2010 by theBrokenMuse