American Women: Why some stray in marriage

[Woggle]

It is not about race because many poor whites are this way as well but the model that many feminists have for the family is what has already been a disaster for poor and lower communities.

[TheBigQuestion]

Please, please do tell me what you know about what African Americans are facing today? Are you saying that African Amercans dont like thier children? Are you saying African Americans are bad parents? Please bc no one had questioned you about this enlighten me who happens to be African American [as well as Latino] what you mean by this? Are you not only anit-women but also a biggot???

 

I'm sorry, but this is the most blatant "race-card pulling" I have seen in a while. It's not "racist" to say that on the whole, the family structure of African Americans suffers more than White American families for a wide variety of reasons. It's absolutely true in every statistically measurable way possible. But pointing this out is not racist anymore than saying black men are at a greater risk for heart disease and diabetes than any other group.

 

And furthermore, while I don't really agree with the OP's beliefs or assertions, the fact that he has a negative opinion about a certain sub-group of women does not make him "anti-woman." I'm not generally one to agree with meerkat stew, but there is one constant throughout this entire thread: virtually no one seems to be willing to argue any of the substantive points without some kind of cry of "you hate women!" or "you're racist!" THE OP may have some valid points, he may be making all sorts of true statements based on his experience, but you wouldn't know it, because everyone here is drowning out any and all decent debate with hyperbolic and unwarranted attacks on character. The complete lack of intellectual rigor on this board is astounding, and makes me closer and closer to abandon posting here.

Edited September 16, 2010 by TheBigQuestion

[BS76]

Not sure where it will lead... but I think it may look much like what the African American community faces today.

 

It's no so much a race issue as it is a socioeconomic one. Inner cities are leaning on social programs so much because in large part to all the unwed mothers. What happened in America's inner cities is a prototype for where we're heading as a nation in 20-30 years. A good metric to follow is the out of wedlock birth rates. In inner cities it was 40% a few decades ago. Now it's up around 70%. Nationally we just cracked 40% and it's going to continue to rise. As dads are eliminated by family court misandry and men are disincentivized to marry and raise kids, women will continue to marry later and rely on Uncle Sam to make up the difference. That means more and more people drawing from teh system and less feeding into it. Ultimately we're looking at the collapse of society as we know it as those social programs go bankrupt. Another indicator things are about to go belly up will be when state and federal workers start seeing their pensions getting trimmed and furloughs forced on a regular basis. Some states will see this sooner than others, such as California, Ohio, and Michigan.

Edited September 16, 2010 by BS76

[JanetD]

...everyone here is drowning out any and all decent debate with hyperbolic and unwarranted attacks on character.

 

How very true.

[Sanman]

I'm sorry, but this is the most blatant "race-card pulling" I have seen in a while. It's not "racist" to say that on the whole, the family structure of African Americans suffers more than White American families for a wide variety of reasons. It's absolutely true in every statistically measurable way possible. But pointing this out is not racist anymore than saying black men are at a greater risk for heart disease and diabetes than any other group.

 

And furthermore, while I don't really agree with the OP's beliefs or assertions, the fact that he has a negative opinion about a certain sub-group of women does not make him "anti-woman." I'm not generally one to agree with meerkat stew, but there is one constant throughout this entire thread: virtually no one seems to be willing to argue any of the substantive points without some kind of cry of "you hate women!" or "you're racist!" THE OP may have some valid points, he may be making all sorts of true statements based on his experience, but you wouldn't know it, because everyone here is drowning out any and all decent debate with hyperbolic and unwarranted attacks on character. The complete lack of intellectual rigor on this board is astounding, and makes me closer and closer to abandon posting here.

 

Could not have said it better myself. Quoted because it bears repeating.

[GooseChaser]

I think this topic could be approached from a more positive angle. Why so negative?

[theBrokenMuse]

And furthermore, while I don't really agree with the OP's beliefs or assertions, the fact that he has a negative opinion about a certain sub-group of women does not make him "anti-woman."

No, it doesn't make him anti-female automatically although you could make a case for him being so IF American women are the only women he has any real familiarity with and you can make a case for him being an anti-feminist from statements made in this thread about women with careers.

 

However, "willing to argue any of the substantive points"? I honestly am having trouble following you here. Where is the obvious intellectual merit in debating non sequiturs about an entire group of people using an article as the springboard?

 

I swear I am not even being sarcastic, I simply don't understand the particular train of thought as to why it should be self-evident to others that this is to be considered a serious topic for debate by the viewers rather than emotional fodder stemming from indignation and pain.

Edited September 16, 2010 by theBrokenMuse

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

 

However, "willing to argue any of the substantive points"? I honestly am having trouble following you here. Where is the obvious intellectual merit in debating non sequiturs about an entire group of people using an article as the springboard?

 

I swear I am not even being sarcastic, I simply don't understand the particular train of thought as to why it should be self-evident to others that this is to be considered a serious topic for debate by the viewers rather than emotional fodder stemming from indignation and pain.

 

Truly, I agree 100%.

 

Also, I propose that if it's appropriate for men on this thread to ignore and discount any post made (by women) if they perceive "shaming" language to have been used, it is not fair for them to disrespect the position of a different poster who perceives that racist language has been used.

[GooseChaser]

I just don't see why there has to be so much hostility in this thread. Let's work together, rather than making it "us versus them"!

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't really see as there being a debate here. I love my country... and I've met a lot of great women here. However as sad as it is, for the most part they are all amoral cheats compared to women in other countries.

 

Also... I don't think women in the U.S. are good mothers. I think that one might be worth debating.

 

I'm afraid that any thread that starts out like this has engendered all the hostility that it's garnered.

 

I'm sad that the OP and so many others have had bad experiences with women. I'm also sad for all the women who have been disenchanted by their experiences with men. Saying things about us like "for the most part they (we) are ALL amoral cheats compared to women in other countries" and "I don't think women in the U.S. are good mothers" doesn't set the stage for anything but negativity and defensive discourse.

 

I'M not an amoral cheat. I was / am a good mother. I have a very large and diverse group of friends and acquaintances, and cheating wives / bad mothers do not feature prominently among them. I am not inclined to try to "prove" this to people like the OP, but I AM inclined to want to smack them down for such an insulting post. Admittedly, it's a waste of time.

[TheBigQuestion]

No, it doesn't make him anti-female automatically although you could make a case for him being so IF American women are the only women he has any real familiarity with and you can make a case for him being an anti-feminist from statements made in this thread about women with careers.

 

However, "willing to argue any of the substantive points"? I honestly am having trouble following you here. Where is the obvious intellectual merit in debating non sequiturs about an entire group of people using an article as the springboard?

 

I swear I am not even being sarcastic, I simply don't understand the particular train of thought as to why it should be self-evident to others that this is to be considered a serious topic for debate by the viewers rather than emotional fodder stemming from indignation and pain.

 

How to argue the substantive points? Let's start with a few valid premises.

 

1. There are at least some traits and habits that are either unique to or more apparent in people in a certain country or region than others.

 

ex. Alaskans have a greater tendency towards alcoholism than Puerto Ricans.

 

2. There are cultural and socioeconomic reasons why these and all other patterns of behavior exist.

 

3. Because of the highly personal nature of these patterns of behavior, empirical data concerning them can be of some value but when it comes to things like relationships, marriage, and divorce, are quite suspect.

 

Now, some questions.

 

1. Are traits as described in (1), particularly those that all the negative male posters are talking about, more likely to arise in the United States as opposed to less Westernized areas of the world, or even Western Europe?

 

2. If one assumes yes, then what are some of the cultural and socioeconomic values and political policies that may have contributed to this state of affairs? What is afoul in this country versus everywhere else? Keep (3) in mind.

 

And here's the best part. I don't buy anything of what the OP says. I don't share in his attitude at all. But following a framework like how I posted above would've been far more constructive than pretty much every female poster on this thread making thinly veiled accusations of misogyny whenever a point that they found distasteful was made. This is all that meerkat stew is trying to say in pretty much every post he writes on this forum.

[flying]

How to argue the substantive points? Let's start with a few valid premises.

 

1. There are at least some traits and habits that are either unique to or more apparent in people in a certain country or region than others.

 

ex. Alaskans have a greater tendency towards alcoholism than Puerto Ricans.

 

2. There are cultural and socioeconomic reasons why these and all other patterns of behavior exist.

 

3. Because of the highly personal nature of these patterns of behavior, empirical data concerning them can be of some value but when it comes to things like relationships, marriage, and divorce, are quite suspect.

 

Now, some questions.

 

1. Are traits as described in (1), particularly those that all the negative male posters are talking about, more likely to arise in the United States as opposed to less Westernized areas of the world, or even Western Europe?

 

2. If one assumes yes, then what are some of the cultural and socioeconomic values and political policies that may have contributed to this state of affairs? What is afoul in this country versus everywhere else? Keep (3) in mind.

 

And here's the best part. I don't buy anything of what the OP says. I don't share in his attitude at all. But following a framework like how I posted above would've been far more constructive than pretty much every female poster on this thread making thinly veiled accusations of misogyny whenever a point that they found distasteful was made. This is all that meerkat stew is trying to say in pretty much every post he writes on this forum.

 

Two minor issues with this: 1) no, meerkat has many other points he tries to make than a plea for tolerance. Let's not go overboard here. And 2) there were in fact some attempts to discuss this on the part of both female and male posters - BUT, when they disagreed with the OP or challenged his ideas, or even when some posters posited that in some places male Americans may be equally looked down upon...well, that was apparently not OK to say, because there was not any real consideration of those opinions, and in fact those posters became the brunt of ridicule.

 

All of which ultimately gives the impression that this thread exists for people to agree in a blanket sort of way, or to be ridiculed. Small wonder people don't want to play.

 

I'm all for civil discussion, with respect. But, I think that if the OP had been interested in fostering true discussion he would have approached this differently from the outset. Bet he knows it, too. This all strikes me as disingenuous, because smart people (as many of the posters here are) know perfectly well that you can have a civil discussion without discounting others' opinions; shaming language, as was introduced earlier in this thread, was in use by lots of people, including the very people who first cited it. That they are only pointing fingers outward further undermines their position on this. I don't buy it.

Edited September 16, 2010 by flying

[theBrokenMuse]

How to argue the substantive points? Let's start with a few valid premises.

You completely ignored what I asked you. I didn't ask HOW to create valid 'substantive points' from what he said during his rant. What I wanted to know is:

 

why it should be self-evident to others that this is to be considered a serious topic for debate by the viewers rather than emotional fodder stemming from indignation and pain.

 

I also strongly disagree with the notion that treating it as such would have necessarily been more constructive. Trying to refute an emotionally held position with logic, especially when that position is deeply entrenched often turns up pretty fruitless no matter how you approach it.

Edited September 16, 2010 by theBrokenMuse

[MrNate]

I just don't see why there has to be so much hostility in this thread. Let's work together, rather than making it "us versus them"!

 

Sadly, that's not the kind of world we live in anymore.

 

But it is rather hard to have a good discussion on here, because usually a sweeping generalization of a gender is made. Then it's the battle of the offensive players versus the defensive players.

 

The sad part is, if we learned to hold back our assumptions, we might learn quite a bit IMO.

[EasyHeart]

I'M not an amoral cheat. I was / am a good mother. I have a very large and diverse group of friends and acquaintances, and cheating wives / bad mothers do not feature prominently among them. I am not inclined to try to "prove" this to people like the OP, but I AM inclined to want to smack them down for such an insulting post. Admittedly, it's a waste of time.

My mother is a woman, and she is not an amoral cheat. She was also a good mother.

 

I think we should delve into why so many of the male posters in this thread hate their mothers. . . .

[Woggle]

I just don't see why there has to be so much hostility in this thread. Let's work together, rather than making it "us versus them"!

 

It already is us vs them way before this thread and this board even.

[GooseChaser]

It already is us vs them way before this thread and this board even.

Could you please elaborate, Woggle? I'd like to see a few examples of the ever-present "us versus them" mindset, if you don't mind providing a few. Then I can better understand what you mean.

[Woggle]

Could you please elaborate, Woggle? I'd like to see a few examples of the ever-present "us versus them" mindset, if you don't mind providing a few. Then I can better understand what you mean.

 

Men and women don't even like each other anymore and if it were not for sexuality we would not deal with each other at all. The genders have vastly different experiences and vastly different points of view so it very much is us vs them.

[GooseChaser]

Men and women don't even like each other anymore and if it were not for sexuality we would not deal with each other at all. The genders have vastly different experiences and vastly different points of view so it very much is us vs them.

Ah, I see. Thanks Woggle! Well, it might be true that most of the time men and women don't get along well together. I guess it's lucky, then, that all we have to find is one special person. It doesn't matter if every other person in the world is super-shallow or what have you; if you find that one person that you love, you are set. That's how I see it. Men and women sometimes want different things in relationships and in other areas of their lives, but somehow we all coexist as a people in the end. There might be fights and hardships, but we make it through them and are better off for it, becoming older and wiser!

[Mme. Chaucer]

As always, Woggle doesn't speak for very many of us. I have many men who are dear to me in my life, including my SO. I connect well and find common ground with men every day in work and recreational activities. I would probably fall over in a dead faint if I were to learn that any of these fellows were posting stuff like I see here on LS. In fact, the only male in my life who I think would be like minded is my brother ... the one with the costly Peruvian mail order bride.

[soserious1]

Meerkat is just killing this thread and that is a good thing.

 

I have no problem with admitting that I regret the yrs I spent being a faithful loving wife and that I would never again in a million yrs be sexually exclusive with anyone.Also to be perfectly blunt, all I really want from men is sex & occasional light companionship, I'm very capable of taking care of myself & quite comfortable in doing so. All of the things I've listed are simply my life preferences,not valuing or desiring the role of wife in a monogamous marriage doesn't make me a bad person

 

Similarly, men who don't value American women are IMHO entirely within their rights to say so, to say it loudly and to refuse to date or marry them, I don't understand why this is a problem as these men are simply exercising their life preferences & this doesn't make them bad people either.

Edited September 17, 2010 by soserious1

[Woggle]

As always, Woggle doesn't speak for very many of us. I have many men who are dear to me in my life, including my SO. I connect well and find common ground with men every day in work and recreational activities. I would probably fall over in a dead faint if I were to learn that any of these fellows were posting stuff like I see here on LS. In fact, the only male in my life who I think would be like minded is my brother ... the one with the costly Peruvian mail order bride.

 

Bringing out a few exceptions does not prove it wrong. How many truly happy relationships do you know?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Bringing out a few exceptions does not prove it wrong. How many truly happy relationships do you know?

 

There you go again, Woggle.

 

I will say this: I am over 50 years old. I've had a very diverse life with extreme highs and lows. My childhood was not safe or happy. I fought with addiction (and won). I've been in a terribly abusive relationship and in one with a chronic womanizer. I've been trouble to some boyfriends in my past. I have friends of ALL genders in various countries. Among all of them, ONLY one consistently wallows in the horror of the other sex and how badly they've been victimized by that gender.

 

I probably subconsciously steer clear of people whit that mindset, as I have a low tolerance for victim mentality.

 

I'm learning here at LS that there are plenty of folks like you ... I'm sorry. But no matter how much you insist that your perspective reflects the absolute truth, it does not make it so.

[theBrokenMuse]

Similarly, men who don't value American women are IMHO entirely within their rights to say so, to say it loudly and to refuse to date or marry them, I don't understand why this is a problem as these men are simply exercising their life preferences & this doesn't make them bad people either.

 

I have no problem with any of that at all, personally.People have the right to pursue happiness for themselves and assessing who and what is right for them BUT there is a vast difference between considering a group of people to have low desirability and actually trying to defecate upon them for being so in your eyes. It's the latter which tends to get me peeved.

[EasyHeart]

Similarly, men who don't value American women are IMHO entirely within their rights to say so, to say it loudly and to refuse to date or marry them, I don't understand why this is a problem as these men are simply exercising their life preferences & this doesn't make them bad people either.

And if they did that, no one would probably have any problem with it. But instead of saying, "This is my experience, I've been damaged by it, and now I have these insecurities that make me believe. . .", they project their own psychological problems onto an entire gender and claim to speak for all men. They don't. They speak for themselves, and perhaps a small number of men who have similar insecurities and psychosis.

 

Bringing out a few exceptions does not prove it wrong. How many truly happy relationships do you know?

Lots.