A lesson

[elaine567]

A fat woman will attract men, some men love curvier women, but if she is expecting her inbox to be full of messages from hot male model types then she will be in for a disappointment.

OK there may be a male model out there who loves curvier women, but we are talking needle in a haystack stuff.

If her goal is to attract fit hot men then much easier to just lose the weight than wait around forever for a unicorn...

[elaine567]

I'll agree to disagree about their effectiveness. The only thing which would interest me would be how said dating coach proposes one beats the odds when one isn't physically desirable....especially seeing that's all the matters to most.

 

What evidence do you have for that?

Plenty average/below average/ugly guys out there dating, sleeping with, living with and marrying women every day of the week.

[preraph]

Point taken but Id wager its a lot harder to fundamentally change a personality than it is to loose weight.

 

 

See here I have an issue, I was told to be this, do that, act like that and put on a general sham and my pool was not better then than it is now and as a person I felt worse about myself. Where do you draw the line, completely alter yourself and feel bad about who you are in the HOPE someone might like that fake personality?

 

 

Where is the compromise here?

 

 

Care to explain what "function socially on a high level" actually means?

 

 

If I could say "ok do that and you get this opportunity" then its an easier choice and a compromise to handle. Again today I was out having lunch and looked around me, its all the same really, the same charm, the same wit, the same apparent humour, essentially its all the same thinking and there is some sort of pattern to it. None of it makes a heck of a lot of sense to me at all but the choice to me seems simple, try be like that look like a fool, get nowhere. Keep doing what I am doing, feel lonely, but not feel like a fool and get nowhere.

 

No, it's harder to lose weight. You are in complete control of how you act and think. Weight can be impossible to keep off.

[Garcon1986]

Well haven't you just rustled up the leaves again old chap?

 

 

Let's do it mathematically since you are a man of logic.

 

 

7 billion people in the world. Let's say about 30% of those are of dating age. That's 2.1 billion.

 

 

2.1 /2 = 1 billion men looking for one billion women.

 

 

World population is still increasing fast.

 

 

You say only the cream of the crop can date and have babies? How do you explain the incredible world population increase then? There must be lads and lassies, who are less hot than hot supermodels, having sex.

 

 

I can repeat my message - tweak, don't try to completely change, your resting serious face, so that you don't shed your seriousness only when you see a desirable woman go by. Refusal to even budge a little bit (it's not the same thing as groveling for love by the way) will just keep you partnerless. The vast majority of women want a man that is some variation on fun guy/ doesn't take himself too seriously. It's ok to have standards of attractiveness, but either stay single and don't grumble about the dating setup, or make a commitment to change for the better (which is different than refusing to be somebody's fixer upper).

[Garcon1986]

I'm surrounded by morbidly obese women and single mothers who want me, and ridiculously attractive nurses who want nothing to do with me because I'm not hot, Southern, and a classic frat bro. I'm not here criticizing them though despite the fact, I think it's unfair.

[ZA Dater]

What evidence do you have for that?

Plenty average/below average/ugly guys out there dating, sleeping with, living with and marrying women every day of the week.

 

 

 

Ok and how many of those guys are dating people they want to date versus how many "well this is the best I can do lets settle".

 

 

I don't know the answer or profess to know but I think it would be interesting to have an idea of which way things lean.

 

 

Its great to have someone interested in you but its also easy to remove logic and get caught up in it. For example I had a 37yo who chased me for weeks, she wanted me to come over and sleep with her while her 12 yo daughter was there.

 

 

Some other guy would have loved this idea and she could never understand why the idea didn't appeal to me.

[ZA Dater]

{snip}

You say only the cream of the crop can date and have babies? How do you explain the incredible world population increase then? There must be lads and lassies, who are less hot than hot supermodels, having sex.

 

I can repeat my message - tweak, don't try to completely change, your resting serious face, so that you don't shed your seriousness only when you see a desirable woman go by. Refusal to even budge a little bit (it's not the same thing as groveling for love by the way) will just keep you partnerless. The vast majority of women want a man that is some variation on fun guy/ doesn't take himself too seriously. It's ok to have standards of attractiveness, but either stay single and don't grumble about the dating setup, or make a commitment to change for the better (which is different than refusing to be somebody's fixer upper).

 

My resting face is never going to change, its simply who I am. As for the bold I never mentioned that but I do wonder how many people actually end up marrying someone they actually want versus adopting "well I don't really want this but I love him/her".

 

The social pressure to partner up is always there, you must have felt it, be it family or friends.

 

I do try to be more outgoing, I do try to be less serious, I do try to smile at people but and its a big but I still carry the history with me, the endless rejections and that's a lot harder to get rid of than smiling or trying to be less serious. Add to that the fact I don't conform and its a mix that nobody really wants when they can have better.

 

I'll be quite honest there aren't any subjective reasons for anyone to date me but there are some objective ones.

 

1: I am incredibly loyal but then again so is a dog

2: I am extremely honest

3: I do actually care

4: My interests are best described as diverse

5: My life does not really conform to that of some people.

 

For me though, your comment is fair and true but I am attracted to very specific types of people, there needs to be something different about them in some way and its usually personality but its SO hard when everyone I meet is just the same just with different looks. Ask yourself when last you have met someone who goes to ballet?

Edited December 12, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mike800]

Dude get out of your own f’in head and loosen up for once ..You seem like a very serious dude who treats every situation like a mathematical equation and doesn’t let his guard down.

 

Nobody wants to be with someone guarded and serious all the time..

 

It doesn’t mean you have to be loud over the type obnoxious life of the party guy(I have a dry sarcastic sense of humor and it works for me) just have some damn fun and stop taking everything so seriously for once.

 

It would make a huge difference

[ZA Dater]

Dude get out of your own f’in head and loosen up for once ..You seem like a very serious dude who treats every situation like a mathematical equation and doesn’t let his guard down.

 

Nobody wants to be with someone guarded and serious all the time..

 

It doesn’t mean you have to be loud over the type obnoxious life of the party guy(I have a dry sarcastic sense of humor and it works for me) just have some damn fun and stop taking everything so seriously for once.

 

It would make a huge difference

 

 

Quite correct. I don't let my guard down or very rarely do, perhaps if I am with someone I feel comfortable with I do it. Otherwise everything is business like. I am extremely focused.

 

 

Fun for me is driving great cars, having nice lunches at scenic places, body surfing that great wave, a quite solitary cycle along some tree lined roads. That's fun for me.

[NuevoYorko]

Point taken but Id wager its a lot harder to fundamentally change a personality than it is to loose weight.

It's not. Are you aware of the statistical improbability that people will sustain weight loss?

 

I'm not talking about a fundamental personality change in any case. I am talking about learning / improving social skills.

 

See here I have an issue, I was told to be this, do that, act like that and put on a general sham and my pool was not better then than it is now and as a person I felt worse about myself

 

Of course, with your attitude. You're coming at this from the point of view that you are the man and any effort towards self improvement is nothing but a "general sham."

 

The fact is that you have a lot of areas that can use improvement. The reaction people here on LS have to you are probably similar to what you garner irl. If YOU identified some of these areas (not you "were told to," but you actually recognized and owned them) and approached working on them from there, things would be different.

 

As long as you continue to think that you are unflawed and in fact superior to the general population, and thus "deserve" a hot girlfriend - and get all bitter at the suggestion that you might need some self improvement to get there - not happening.

[Garcon1986]

Do you gain something subconsciously from debating us?

[Orokotikki]

I am sure someone has said this but just in case they haven't (cannot be bothered to read 13 pages of umm... text about tinder results)

 

Tinder is a visual medium. Here's a picture: yay or nay.

There could hardly be a more visual medium.

 

If you feel you do not have good looks (which is visual appeal), then do not try to attract people using a visual medium.

 

Therefore, assume you should use an attractive personality to find a potential partner.

 

To do this meet and talk to real women. Face rejection with a smile and perseverance.

Work to find women to converse with who have similar interests, compatible personalities and senses of humor.

Do not waste time and effort at locations where the overall attitude is superficial (dah club).

 

And frankly, you really ought to consider IC to get that chip off your shoulder.

I've had one on mine from time to time too, its OK I get it, but I am much better without it.

[Garcon1986]

So we are a talking about a tough guy persona with a teenage boy inside who has been hurt by women. You don't want to let down your defenses for fear of being hurt again, as many of us have been by the opposite gender.

 

 

Why let women have that much control over your emotions? They do it without any consequences to themselves and without a second thought. Why let them weigh so heavy?

 

Do you benefit from holding on to that much hurt?

 

If any degree of human effort fails to convince you to change your ways because you are annoyed about the possibility of being hurt again, why post these circular arguments on Loveshack again and again? What's the benefit of holding on to your serious face anyway? One can be plenty productive without a serious face and professionally successful.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Garcon1986

[ZA Dater]

I am sure someone has said this but just in case they haven't (cannot be bothered to read 13 pages of umm... text about tinder results)

 

Tinder is a visual medium. Here's a picture: yay or nay.

There could hardly be a more visual medium.

 

If you feel you do not have good looks (which is visual appeal), then do not try to attract people using a visual medium.

 

Therefore, assume you should use an attractive personality to find a potential partner.

 

To do this meet and talk to real women. Face rejection with a smile and perseverance.

Work to find women to converse with who have similar interests, compatible personalities and senses of humor.

Do not waste time and effort at locations where the overall attitude is superficial (dah club).

 

And frankly, you really ought to consider IC to get that chip off your shoulder.

I've had one on mine from time to time too, its OK I get it, but I am much better without it.

 

 

Every single place is a visual medium. You are judged on looks and less I do the same though at least I have humoured people I didn't find attractive. The whole point here is just exactly that, you cannot overcome looks with personality because its not valued.

 

 

As someone said to me yesterday "they all want to have sex but they just don't want you" which true as has been pointed out in this thread. A personality isn't going to excite most but good looks are apparently universal.

 

 

Please tell me what non visual medium you suggest?

 

 

Not interested in anymore rejection, now I weight the odds of success and if it appears she has a bf I don't even bother and this is easy to tell in the public domain. It would be nice if one actually came up to talk to me but I suppose I will be blamed for having a serious resting face.

 

 

Similar interests, I have been looking for that person for 15years and have not found one. I suppose then I should change my interests in order to fit in more.

 

 

I grew up with the mantra of being a good person would help when I eventually decided I wanted to date, turns out I was wrong, you just need to be a hot person.

[ZA Dater]

It's not. Are you aware of the statistical improbability that people will sustain weight loss?

 

I'm not talking about a fundamental personality change in any case. I am talking about learning / improving social skills.

 

 

 

Of course, with your attitude. You're coming at this from the point of view that you are the man and any effort towards self improvement is nothing but a "general sham."

 

The fact is that you have a lot of areas that can use improvement. The reaction people here on LS have to you are probably similar to what you garner irl. If YOU identified some of these areas (not you "were told to," but you actually recognized and owned them) and approached working on them from there, things would be different.

 

As long as you continue to think that you are unflawed and in fact superior to the general population, and thus "deserve" a hot girlfriend - and get all bitter at the suggestion that you might need some self improvement to get there - not happening.

 

 

 

I am fundamentally flawed, I have no issue admitting that and have gone as far to do so on dates before, you can imagine I never saw those people again but I find honestly rarely goes down well on dates, spin some stupid story and yeah even I have got the longing look perhaps once as a result off something purely fictional.

 

 

Social skills keep being harked upon, what else do I actually need? I am comfortable speaking to many people, I am comfortable in business dealing with some difficult people. I am comfortable negotiating. I can show empathy to kids and people in need and do my best to assist. What really do I need? Is there some secret handshake I am missing!

 

 

I am perfectly confident talking about most subjects, I simply don't connect with many people so I just basically switch off and become disinterested quite quickly. My problem is when once in a blue moon I do meet someone I get along well with they aren't ever single or they don't like me. Not sure how "social skills" would help in that scenario.

 

 

If I thought self improvement was a general sham I wouldn't have done any of it 4 years ago though I was heavily incentivised to do it, was it good to do, yeah I suppose it was, did it improve my results, not at all.

[ZA Dater]

So we are a talking about a tough guy persona with a teenage boy inside who has been hurt by women. You don't want to let down your defenses for fear of being hurt again, as many of us have been by the opposite gender.

 

 

Why let women have that much control over your emotions? They do it without any consequences to themselves and without a second thought. Why let them weigh so heavy?

 

Do you benefit from holding on to that much hurt?

 

If any degree of human effort fails to convince you to change your ways because you are annoyed about the possibility of being hurt again, why post these circular arguments on Loveshack again and again? What's the benefit of holding on to your serious face anyway? One can be plenty productive without a serious face and professionally successful.

 

 

 

No you are talking about a guy who doesn't show feelings at all because every time I have well I either got rejected or disappointed so its far easier to go through life being serious and offering up very little feelings wise. Unfortunately for various reasons I had to adopt this fairly early on in life.

 

 

Sure, people get hurt, part of life but how many people cannot balance that hurt with anything positive? Each day I do go out and do try smile at some people, I do try more open body language, a lot of things I do try but mostly I ask myself why I even bother.

 

 

It does weigh heavily because I see rejection as mistake, something I did wrong so I then try and fix it so the result being I pull myself apart and have a look why it didn't work what I possibly did which caused that result.

 

 

I chase perfection in my own mind so again the people who interest me are those who actually stand out from the crowd, no always the best looking, in fact my one friend cannot understand why I don't chase the models he offers up from time to time, simply because I know I cannot compete with the 100's of guys who want their attention.

 

 

What you don't know is I have seen a lot, unfortunately I have been belittled a lot, looked down on by women, made to feel inferior and that's very hard to let go of. It would be easier if there were some positive experiences but there are not. I try and create any sort of experienced to try and create a positive one.

 

 

Work is positive because I like the challenge and I can measure progress, I'd imagine work is rewarding for you because you work with people and can often bring hope to them. I tried to date someone in the office once, she wasn't single but might as well have been so absent was her bf.

 

 

I've got some holiday coming up, I'll go out, perhaps I'll even sit at a bar and see if anything comes of it, not holding my breath though because as always there is some macho loud mouthed, credit card touting, drinks buying main man who will have every lady swarming around him.

 

 

How important do you think common interests are?

[chillii]

Ok and how many of those guys are dating people they want to date versus how many "well this is the best I can do lets settle".

 

 

I don't know the answer or profess to know but I think it would be interesting to have an idea of which way things lean.

 

 

Its great to have someone interested in you but its also easy to remove logic and get caught up in it. For example I had a 37yo who chased me for weeks, she wanted me to come over and sleep with her while her 12 yo daughter was there.

 

 

Some other guy would have loved this idea and she could never understand why the idea didn't appeal to me.

 

So there ya go , ya have had some success even if it wasn't for you.

 

You seem to have such bizarre ideas about most people being with someone or married or whatever the case.

Most people in anything real , serious or marriage are with someone because they met and clicked and fell in love.

 

It's not about some ranking or settling or she or he is the best they can do.

Yeah there's always some pretty messed up people around in relationships, but if that's typical of the people you hang out with you wanna change your crowd man.

[chillii]

No you are talking about a guy who doesn't show feelings at all because every time I have well I either got rejected or disappointed so its far easier to go through life being serious and offering up very little feelings wise. Unfortunately for various reasons I had to adopt this fairly early on in life.

 

 

Sure, people get hurt, part of life but how many people cannot balance that hurt with anything positive? Each day I do go out and do try smile at some people, I do try more open body language, a lot of things I do try but mostly I ask myself why I even bother.

 

 

It does weigh heavily because I see rejection as mistake, something I did wrong so I then try and fix it so the result being I pull myself apart and have a look why it didn't work what I possibly did which caused that result.

 

 

I chase perfection in my own mind so again the people who interest me are those who actually stand out from the crowd, no always the best looking, in fact my one friend cannot understand why I don't chase the models he offers up from time to time, simply because I know I cannot compete with the 100's of guys who want their attention.

 

 

What you don't know is I have seen a lot, unfortunately I have been belittled a lot, looked down on by women, made to feel inferior and that's very hard to let go of. It would be easier if there were some positive experiences but there are not. I try and create any sort of experienced to try and create a positive one.

 

 

Work is positive because I like the challenge and I can measure progress, I'd imagine work is rewarding for you because you work with people and can often bring hope to them. I tried to date someone in the office once, she wasn't single but might as well have been so absent was her bf.

 

 

I've got some holiday coming up, I'll go out, perhaps I'll even sit at a bar and see if anything comes of it, not holding my breath though because as always there is some macho loud mouthed, credit card touting, drinks buying main man who will have every lady swarming around him.

 

 

How important do you think common interests are?

 

 

Didn't things in common get a work out in one of your other threads.?

Anyway , they're more about ways in meeting someone a little like minded than the things in common because really . most couples only share one or two if they're lucky , things together.

But for me that more means we;ll probably be a lot a like as people, personality, views , lifestyle.

Someone we have nothing in common with will just live and be a totally different person.

 

l'm sorry you've had such a hard time of it but the main thing comes to mind is that you must go after the wrong people.

l've rarely had a hard time , because l've got bloody good taste in women haha and interest must be both ways which is easy to spot before you even talk to someone. l've never wasted my time with the rest, why, for one l need to feel right about her and we need to be close to from the same tree but 2 it would only crash and burn anyway.

Edited December 12, 2018 by chillii

[nospam99]

Point taken but Id wager its a lot harder to fundamentally change a personality than it is to loose weight.

 

 

True. But I'd wager it's a lot easier to (learn and) change BEHAVIOR than to change personality or loose weight. And it's a change in your behavior that I see LSer suggesting .... strongly .... and repeatedly.

[Garcon1986]

Why are you so convinced that staying serious and withdrawing inside is the path of righteousness?

 

Why are you so convinced that holding in anger, regret, and resentment towards women is the path of righteousness? Why the Darth Vader approach to life?

 

Why do you reject the life lesson that when you hold in seriousness and resentment, you hurt nobody but yourself?

Edited December 12, 2018 by Garcon1986

[ZA Dater]

1:Why are you so convinced that staying serious and withdrawing inside is the path of righteousness?

 

2:Why are you so convinced that holding in anger, regret, and resentment towards women is the path of righteousness? Why the Darth Vader approach to life?

 

3;Why do you reject the life lesson that when you hold in seriousness and resentment, you hurt nobody but yourself?

 

 

1: It means I don't open myself up to being rejected so there is something to be said for it. If I see a potential opportunity whereby it may actually work them sure I open myself up a bit and try be less serious, these opportunities seldom come along so being serious allows me to focus on other things while I wait for the next opportunity and yes you will tell me to go and find them. Easier said than done I tried OLD for a decade and found pretty much nobody who interested me (when I say OLD I exclude Tinder). I have always been serious probably because I don't get most humour.

 

 

2: You are wrong I don't resent them at all I just cannot fathom the logic behind the choices they make the lack of back bone many I have encountered seem to have. Don't tell me you will be my friend then block me. I do regret not being what they want but when I look what they end u up with, I'll never be that sort of guy which makes the regret a bit more and a bit less because at least I know I have zero chance.

 

 

3: Nobody I am interested in is interested in me anyway and all I interpret said life lesson to be is to simply just be a sheep like most of the people I encounter on a day to day basis.

 

 

The ONLY redeeming factor ITO dating is the fact each day I try be a better me than the day before and when I get that right I feel good about that, much the way I feel good about getting a deal done. Yeah, my prospects aren't any better but at least I feel better about making whatever small improvements I can muster on said day.

 

 

A win for me is if I can bring my personality out but few people make me want to do this because if I give nothing I don't get judged whereas if I open myself up I do get judged. A good example of this is happened yesterday.

 

 

Friend: every girl wants to have sex, you must get as many as you can

 

 

I cant answer that as a 34yo virgin what am I suppose to add or say? I mean I cant ever find people who interest me who want to go out with me never mind sleep with me.

 

 

A lot of my thinking is governed by what I modestly think I can achieve, so friend zones are a win for me even if they are rather one side, being I never actually meet their friends.

[Garcon1986]

Well many women will operate on their feelings and what feels right, regardless of whether it makes sense to a man's internal rubric of how they should behave. That's been true of time immemorial. You going to reject this life lesson too? It's the same way that the universe is under no obligation to make sense to humans as much as we want it to.

 

 

Do you gain something subconsciously by endlessly debating us?

 

 

And third what benefits have you gained, from being a hardliner against the advice given by the citizens of LS?

 

 

I do however congratulate you on taking small steps. You haven't totally given up I see.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Garcon1986

[Normm]

Fun for me is driving great cars, having nice lunches at scenic places, body surfing that great wave, a quite solitary cycle along some tree lined roads.

 

You left out "Pointless circular nonproductive debates on obscure internet relationship discussion forums".

[sad0]

ZA, I’ve sometimes seen you write about how frustrated you are with your under delivery or under performance, say on a date. You sometimes acknowledge you could have said something differently etc.

 

You also write about how it’s the apathy of your daters hat you find attractive that are largely the cause of your failed dates, where you in futility try to pry them open to show some interest in you. Basically you’re putting all the effort and they’re not meeting you halfway.

 

Maybe some of your daters are really bad as you say, but are truly all of them bad because of their them?

 

What if one day you meet the perfect girl in your eyes who ticks every box, shows you all the attention that all the other women did not, gives you the perfect opportunity with your book of tricks to win you over, the challenge and intellectuality you always looked for..... and yet you still then at that moment fail and underdeliver. Don’t you think that might be possible? How would you rationalize that kind of experience? Is the dating system still rigged then?

[ZA Dater]

ZA, I’ve sometimes seen you write about how frustrated you are with your under delivery or under performance, say on a date. You sometimes acknowledge you could have said something differently etc.

 

You also write about how it’s the apathy of your daters hat you find attractive that are largely the cause of your failed dates, where you in futility try to pry them open to show some interest in you. Basically you’re putting all the effort and they’re not meeting you halfway.

Maybe some of your daters are really bad as you say, but are truly all of them bad because of their them?

 

What if one day you meet the perfect girl in your eyes who ticks every box, shows you all the attention that all the other women did not, gives you the perfect opportunity with your book of tricks to win you over, the challenge and intellectuality you always looked for..... and yet you still then at that moment fail and underdeliver. Don’t you think that might be possible? How would you rationalize that kind of experience? Is the dating system still rigged then?

 

 

A few things irritate me in life and one is making mistakes. Most of my dating 'career" can be described as such.

 

 

Look for me its about trying to understand mistakes and trying to fix them but when I look at fundamentals and cannot see why others get picked I tend to wonder really I am wrong or they are wrong.

 

 

I believe the system is rigged to the extent that looks are more important than anything else. Absolutely nothing I have seem disproves this and my own friends seem to support this view.

 

 

Growing up I always believed the key to dating and girlfriends was to be a caring, generous and to take interest and if you wanted it to work make sure you had things in common.

 

 

Reality is, all I see around me are guys who use ladies, sleep around and offer very little and take very little interest.

 

 

I come along being me and well there is little interest, sure I can attract some people but very few and none I find interesting from an intellectual point of view.

 

 

Is dating really about sleeping with the hottest person you can find or is it companionship?

 

 

Your last question, sadly I have been in a position similar to that, granted I don't think she was super into me but she ticked all my boxes and yet I didn't have the ability or experience to woo her. Which is why I am cynical because I don't think you are supposed to meet you ideal but rather meet someone who over time becomes an ideal.

 

 

Most of my dates were poor because I never really found the person interesting to begin with and simply went along hoping they would be better in person.

 

 

I once go so irritated with one who pestered me for a date I said to her " Ok I am virgin, I have never had a gf" guess what I got blocked, so we went from one minute throwing her clothes off for to blocked the next minute because I was honest about who I am.

 

 

That shows me a lot of dating is a glorified fake charade of telling people what you think they want to hear.