A lesson

[guest569]

Fine then I am not interested at all. If this is the one aspect of life where one is stuck then I'd rather so something else with my time than be stuck with people I don't find attractive.

 

I am looking forward to what you have to say about the questions I posed about your appearance.

[Blanco]

What it seems to boil down to if the posters here are to be believed is you sit in your group and thats your group, like it lump it.

 

No, but there's no harm in being a little more honest about yourself and what you can reasonably attract. I mean, I think Blake Lively is a beautiful woman, but I wouldn't in a million years think she should be interested in me romantically. Not because I'm not a good guy or I'm ugly or anything. It's just, ya know, reality.

 

I am simply not prepared to have my sense of self worth dictated to by being rejected by women. I was battered for years and felt terrible because I could never go on dates with what I found attractive instead I went on dates with anyone who would. Now that I stopped that I dont go on dates at all.

 

OK? No one is saying you have to date women you're not attracted to. But again, no one is going to feel sorry for you that you're not going on dates now that you've refined what you're looking for to be, quite frankly, unicorns that have virtually unlimited options when it comes to potential mates.

 

You're the one who comes on here every couple of months to lament how you can't get dates with the type of women you're attracted to. What do you want people to say?

 

After three years, you have to be one of the most heavily-invested-in-by-other-members posters on here. People have tried, with futility, to help. But you've almost always managed to counteract that with excuses as to why those people are wrong or why their advice can't work for you or how you can't believe the audacity that anyone would ever suggest you're not realistic with your expectations compared to what you have to offer these women.

[Blanco]

If this is the one aspect of life where one is stuck then I'd rather so something else with my time than be stuck with people I don't find attractive.

 

It doesn't seem like it for as often as you bemoan this.

 

Maybe I've missed it, but please, explain why the small handful of women who check all of your boxes should invest in you. What do you have to offer to these very likely in high demand ladies that they cannot get from countless other potential suitors?

[ZA Dater]

It doesn't seem like it for as often as you bemoan this.

 

Maybe I've missed it, but please, explain why the small handful of women who check all of your boxes should invest in you. What do you have to offer to these very likely in high demand ladies that they cannot get from countless other potential suitors?

 

Tell me why it is these bfs don't actually do anything for their GFS, why is it they turn to me? Sure they are the ones with dinners and suchlike but car breaks down, nope bf doesn't get called I do. So on and so forth, I have about half a dozen ladies like this.

 

What you don't get is I am not going for the Blake lively equivalent I am going for what I find attractive, which isn't single mom's or obese people.

[ZA Dater]

Hey ZA! You CAN change your looks. What do you want to change? Anything in particular? Why do you think you're ugly?

 

Women are pressured to wear makeup, have beautiful long wavy manes, immaculate complexions, gorgeous fingernails, stupid high heels and sexy/pretty clothes all the time. Go to the barber, shower, shave, cologne, and suit up. Done. And no, I'm not morbidly obese with endless offspring running around so you should automatically accept my opinion as valid.

 

I don't think people like how I speak, I have a deep voice. I am ugly by virtue of the matches I attract, I don't think I am ugly but as I keep being told I must be based on what I attract.

 

I have done the dress super formal it makes no difference, I detest the fact ladies feel pressured to do those things, many would look better to wearing what they are comfortable in and less make up.

 

The thing is this I dont judge solely on looks personality matters a lot but it's even harder to find an attractive personality.

 

Probably my problem is I have too many very nice people overall that subjectivity most others don't compare. Its very important to make people feel good, I went out with people I didn't find attractive and instead of rejecting them I under sold myself.

 

For me I am just chasing that one good butterfly moment and I really don't think that's unrealistic or unreasonable.

[elaine567]

Tell me why it is these bfs don't actually do anything for their GFS, why is it they turn to me? Sure they are the ones with dinners and suchlike but car breaks down, nope bf doesn't get called I do. So on and so forth, I have about half a dozen ladies like this.

 

You are obviously "the car guy", why call a bf who knows nothing about cars or is too busy or will suggest she phone the garage and take an uber.

Much better she calls you and gets personal service.

 

BUT you are firmly in the friendzone, so when her BF lets her down and she is now single again, she doesn't even consider dating you.

Hanging about around women with bfs, as "the platonic friend" gets you friends, but not girl friends usually. They do not see you in that way.

 

Once you are put the "safe" friend box, she may treat you as BFF, tell you her secrets, offload her problems... but she does not see you as a sexual being and without that mindset, she does not see you as a lover and boyfriend...

Once free and single she looks for guys she does see in that way.

[Garcon1986]

ZA have you taken the time to write down what happened in your last interactions with women where you were rejected? Not the times where you were rejected by the German hot flight attendant but ones that were a whole conversation.

[ZA Dater]

You are obviously "the car guy", why call a bf who knows nothing about cars or is too busy or will suggest she phone the garage and take an uber.

Much better she calls you and gets personal service.

 

BUT you are firmly in the friendzone, so when her BF lets her down and she is now single again, she doesn't even consider dating you.

Hanging about around women with bfs, as "the platonic friend" gets you friends, but not girl friends usually. They do not see you in that way.

 

Once you are put the "safe" friend box, she may treat you as BFF, tell you her secrets, offload her problems... but she does not see you as a sexual being and without that mindset, she does not see you as a lover and boyfriend...

Once free and single she looks for guys she does see in that way.

 

Ok and when he is too busy to help you pack boxes, too busy when you need him.

 

I don't have an issue with the friendzone, my experience there has been better than any dating experience I have had at least in those instances it's a give and take situation and those people add a lot of value to my life.

[preraph]

ZADater: "Fine then I am not interested at all. If this is the one aspect of life where one is stuck then I'd rather so something else with my time than be stuck with people I don't find attractive."

 

That's what you should do. Redirect your life and stop chasing your tail and blaming others for it. So that's settled. I look forward to seeing you posting about something other than complaining about not being able to get a better looking woman now.

Edited December 1, 2018 by preraph

[ZA Dater]

ZADater: "Fine then I am not interested at all. If this is the one aspect of life where one is stuck then I'd rather so something else with my time than be stuck with people I don't find attractive."

 

That's what you should do. Redirect your life and stop chasing your tail and blaming others for it. So that's settled. I look forward to seeing you posting about something other than complaining about not being able to get a better looking woman now.

 

You are right. It's just less than ideal to spend all of ones non working time alone but having dinner this evening I had a thought. Perhaps all I need are the friendzones I have now..

 

I have developed some sort of coping mechanism but the problem is some of those friend zones show me how good it can be so I end up chasing more of that but never quite find it.

 

For whatever reason I haven't been able to get the dating thing right. It's Saturday night and I am sitting at home. I cannot think of one good reason to go to a bar or club.

 

Maybe sometime in the future I need to try an conjure up some completely false date which goes exactly how I want a date that go.

 

I'll balance my friend zone to give the impression I am attempting to date.

 

I just don't get how people find dating enjoyable when for me I cannot find anyone I'd want to date who wants to date me.

 

Such is life I suppose.

[ZA Dater]

You are obviously "the car guy", why call a bf who knows nothing about cars or is too busy or will suggest she phone the garage and take an uber.

Much better she calls you and gets personal service.

 

BUT you are firmly in the friendzone, so when her BF lets her down and she is now single again, she doesn't even consider dating you.

Hanging about around women with bfs, as "the platonic friend" gets you friends, but not girl friends usually. They do not see you in that way.

 

Once you are put the "safe" friend box, she may treat you as BFF, tell you her secrets, offload her problems... but she does not see you as a sexual being and without that mindset, she does not see you as a lover and boyfriend...

Once free and single she looks for guys she does see in that way.

 

 

 

You miss the point. I might be the car guy but you would think they would be concerned about their GF being stranded, they seemingly couldn't care less.

 

 

Maybe there is something wrong with me but if I had a GF I would drop things and try and help her. Or the other one who was moving and her BF was too busy to help her move boxes, so I ended up doing it.

 

 

Maybe because I have never had anyone and am unlikely to my perspective is different but I would at least show I cared and make that person the front and centre of what I did.

 

 

I look around me and find it very, very difficult to see what these women see in these guys, objectively most seem to have very few redeeming factors but I guess it all revolve around "how he makes her feel" but that's questionable because "abc thinks I don't look good in this outfit, what do you think" abc being her bf.

 

 

Or when XYZ brings the latest book she created to show me and looks for obvious validation, I think ask if BF has seen it "he isn't really interested".

 

 

Am I so far off centre to think this sounds abnormal?

 

 

You are right about the friend zone its probably impossible to get out of it unless the person isn't that marketable or lacks self confidence and this brings me to another point, bf's who do nothing to build up their gf's confidence.

 

 

Ok I guess I am just wrong about all of this.

[Blanco]

I mean, you're not wrong that many people are in relationships that don't fulfill them, whether they realize it or not.

 

I'd venture to say that many of the relationships in my orbit seem like they would be unfulfilling. But it's easy for me on the outside to assess this and wonder why they continue on. After all, it's not my relationship, so theorizing what I would or wouldn't do is not much weightier of a decision that figuring out what I'll have for dinner tonight.

 

Perhaps that's part of why I don't really get that down about having been single for many years now. In some ways, I'm like you. I'm not willing to just settle for anything that comes my way for the sake of being one half of a couple. It seems, though, that you are ultimately more frustrated by this than I am.

 

It can be lonely sometimes and sure, I'd like to do some of the good relationship stuff that I know from experience I'm missing out on. I guess I'm just not too flustered by it all at this point.

[barneydin]

I really don't get why women in this thread try to downplay your need for attractiveness in a partner. For a lot of guys looks are extremely important, even more important than personality. If you are attracted to beauty, don't let anyone tell you otherwise for the sake of feel-good narrative that love somehow doesn't have a biological factor. It's the same platitude and wishful thinking that makes a lot of women say that height doesn't matter, and yet time and time again it is proven as the most important aspect of male attractiveness, and a huge majority of women simply don't date shorter guys.

 

Saying you have double standards is a double standard in itself. It's really not helpful.

 

Now, attraction is a very complex thing. There are countless elements that go into it, some you can't control, like: scent; tone of your voice; height; facial structure; and some you can control to a great degree: physical fitness; money; charisma; clothes; likeability. In my opinion guys have it so much easier than girls here, because they can literally build their own attractiveness.

 

Tinder is a fine tool, but it takes only one thing into consideration: looks. You've encountered that reality and that clearly made you bitter. That is a problem. The world is a very nasty place, and it is extremely easy to get bitter when you encounter a problem. But that does nothing for you. It literally makes the problem worse, it makes you less attractive, you start to blame women, you start to blame society, you blame yourself. It gets you nowhere.

 

What should you do? As a guy you have it so much easier than women to improve on yourself. You want beauty? Be beautiful. Get ****ing shredded, man. Like to the point of having a six-pack, guns, etc. With diet and rigorous exercise you can do that in a year. Get tailored clothes that show that off. Go to the most expensive barber you can find. Buy the most extravagant and expensive cologne you like. Buy a stylish watch. I guarantee it, even if your face looks like a pancake, you'd be having a lot of success with the type of girls you are after. On top of that work on your personality. Build a tougher skin, get used to rejection, welcome it. That's how you win at this. When you get to the peak of your attractiveness, then you'll know. Now you know nothing. Game for guys is built, and you seem bitter that you didn't get it from the start. For example, some people are born into money, some are not. But it is a pathetic man who is shaking his fist at a rich man's mansion and does nothing to get his own.

 

Also, you can dislike the game, dating is hard and harsh, but don't hate on other players. It is what it is. You being bitter at the world doesn't change anything. Don't start woman-hating, as there is a clear path from this bitterness to what they call nowadays the "incel" culture.

Edited December 2, 2018 by barneydin

[preraph]

^ I agree men can maybe improve themselves working out, but I have to tell you a cold hard truth: Women don't care that much about just a man's body like men do just a woman's body. No woman I know selected a man based on from the neck down. Women are not as focused on body. They like overall stature, face, and hair, personality. Having only a hard body is probably not going to score someone a woman with a good body. It's a good thing to do, but it just doesn't have the same priority for women as men. None of my crowd even thought lots of muscles, from lots of working out, was attractive, and just liked more natural muscles, like moderate biceps.

[alphamale]

^ I agree men can maybe improve themselves working out, but I have to tell you a cold hard truth: Women don't care that much about just a man's body like men do just a woman's body. No woman I know selected a man based on from the neck down. Women are not as focused on body. They like overall stature, face, and hair, personality. Having only a hard body is probably not going to score someone a woman with a good body. It's a good thing to do, but it just doesn't have the same priority for women as men. None of my crowd even thought lots of muscles, from lots of working out, was attractive, and just liked more natural muscles, like moderate biceps.

 

women in general like a well-rounded man

[ZA Dater]

I really don't get why women in this thread try to downplay your need for attractiveness in a partner. For a lot of guys looks are extremely important, even more important than personality. If you are attracted to beauty, don't let anyone tell you otherwise for the sake of feel-good narrative that love somehow doesn't have a biological factor. It's the same platitude and wishful thinking that makes a lot of women say that height doesn't matter, and yet time and time again it is proven as the most important aspect of male attractiveness, and a huge majority of women simply don't date shorter guys.

 

Saying you have double standards is a double standard in itself. It's really not helpful.

 

Now, attraction is a very complex thing. There are countless elements that go into it, some you can't control, like: scent; tone of your voice; height; facial structure; and some you can control to a great degree: physical fitness; money; charisma; clothes; likeability. In my opinion guys have it so much easier than girls here, because they can literally build their own attractiveness.

 

Tinder is a fine tool, but it takes only one thing into consideration: looks. You've encountered that reality and that clearly made you bitter. That is a problem. The world is a very nasty place, and it is extremely easy to get bitter when you encounter a problem. But that does nothing for you. It literally makes the problem worse, it makes you less attractive, you start to blame women, you start to blame society, you blame yourself. It gets you nowhere.

 

What should you do? As a guy you have it so much easier than women to improve on yourself. You want beauty? Be beautiful. Get ****ing shredded, man. Like to the point of having a six-pack, guns, etc. With diet and rigorous exercise you can do that in a year. Get tailored clothes that show that off. Go to the most expensive barber you can find. Buy the most extravagant and expensive cologne you like. Buy a stylish watch. I guarantee it, even if your face looks like a pancake, you'd be having a lot of success with the type of girls you are after. On top of that work on your personality. Build a tougher skin, get used to rejection, welcome it. That's how you win at this. When you get to the peak of your attractiveness, then you'll know. Now you know nothing. Game for guys is built, and you seem bitter that you didn't get it from the start. For example, some people are born into money, some are not. But it is a pathetic man who is shaking his fist at a rich man's mansion and does nothing to get his own.

 

Also, you can dislike the game, dating is hard and harsh, but don't hate on other players. It is what it is. You being bitter at the world doesn't change anything. Don't start woman-hating, as there is a clear path from this bitterness to what they call nowadays the "incel" culture.

 

Id wager Tinder proves only looks matter. I doubt it would be any different in person which is why this experiment has been very useful. They will talk to me with fake pictures but ignore me with real pictures. Telling. Yet according to some I can't judge the same way...

 

I spent years looking for personality. Years and years and o simply never found it, perhaps what in hindsight I did find is challenged people like me who become bitter don't have the best personalities. Those who have endless buffet choice are better off in this regard.

 

Best dates I had, were the ones I paid for, stunning student who needed tuition, tool her to dinner a few times, just dinner. Why because she actually showed interest in me, was interested enough to ask questions.

 

I still maintain all ladies do is pick, guys well most don't have much choosing ability.

 

I can't change how I speak, I have been blocked after voice notes before so clearly that's an issue. Absolutely nothing I have experienced suggests I should not be bitter. I am told I. This very thread "oh but she might have a nice personality" funny then that I am not afforded the same.

 

Sure, one can improve but to what end. Every single relationship baround me is severely flawed, there are no good examples at all. I look at these guys and cannot fathom what is so fantastic about them. Some are unemployed, some openly play the market, some degrade their GFS, some display a complete lack oof thought. I am certainly not going to model myself on them, frankly as a person I believe I am better than most of them and yet....

 

I'll just try and console myself with the fact there are millions of guys like me.

[Blanco]

This very thread "oh but she might have a nice personality" funny then that I am not afforded the same.

 

...

 

frankly as a person I believe I am better than most of them and yet....

 

Again, this all assumes you have a great personality. Maybe you do. I'd propose that your posts at the very least suggest you would be a bit taxing to be around. You seem closed off to views that aren't your own. A lot of your posts have that lethal mix of someone who is not confident in himself yet also believes himself to be far superior to many.

 

In sum, online dating is going to lend itself more to visuals. Meeting people in the real world is going to give the average looking guy who's got legit charm a better shot with traditionally attractive women.

 

I was at a Christmas party last night where pretty much every remotely attractive woman was with a boyfriend or husband. Of the lot, maybe two or three were good looking guys. The rest were mediocre or below average. I see this sort of thing all the time, which flies in the face of your theory that looks are ultimately what matter to the woman. Physical attraction plays a role, but I've found that a guy who is OK looking who can also charm the woman is going to be far far more physically attractive to a woman than with the gender roles reversed.

 

Which leads me back to your personality. You seem intelligent and I'm sure you've got some interesting things to say. But you don't strike me as someone who is disarming or capable of light-hearted chats with a woman you find attractive but don't know that well. That matters way more than your appearance, but because that's as challenging to alter as anything physical, you seem content to continually blame superficiality on the woman's part as the crux of your failures with women.

[brigit87]

^ I agree men can maybe improve themselves working out, but I have to tell you a cold hard truth: Women don't care that much about just a man's body like men do just a woman's body. No woman I know selected a man based on from the neck down. Women are not as focused on body. They like overall stature, face, and hair, personality. Having only a hard body is probably not going to score someone a woman with a good body. It's a good thing to do, but it just doesn't have the same priority for women as men. None of my crowd even thought lots of muscles, from lots of working out, was attractive, and just liked more natural muscles, like moderate biceps.

 

True enough. Also, it's not so much about how good looking a guy is but how masculine he is. I've dated some guys who were better looking than most actors but they didn't come across as "strong" enough.

 

I can't speak for all women but for myself and my friends we always wanted to feel "protected" when out with a guy. Someone who makes you feel like he could slay all the dragons if need be.

[elaine567]

A lot of your posts have that lethal mix of someone who is not confident in himself yet also believes himself to be far superior to many.

Seems to be quite common in shy, retiring, socially awkward guys.They know they are not confident nor wildly attractive to women, yet in their head they are entitled to the crème de la crème as they tend to have quite big egos.

OR they pitch way above their league in order to set themselves up to fail, self sabotage is not uncommon, wallowing in pity may be a comfortable place to be.

OR having such high standards means they never really try, hence they never actually fail in their mind. It is too scary to try 100% as there is the risk of failing, so better to blame the world...

 

You seem intelligent and I'm sure you've got some interesting things to say. But you don't strike me as someone who is disarming or capable of light-hearted chats with a woman you find attractive but don't know that well. That matters way more than your appearance, but because that's as challenging to alter as anything physical, you seem content to continually blame superficiality on the woman's part as the crux of your failures with women.

 

Yes. ^^^

Light hearted small talk and humorous "drivel" and fun is an essential part of dating and falling in love...

[nospam99]

you don't strike me as someone who is disarming or capable of light-hearted chats with a woman you find attractive but don't know that well. That matters way more than your appearance, but because that's as challenging to alter as anything physical, you seem content to continually blame superficiality on the woman's part as the crux of your failures with women.

 

Care to clarify? What are you comparing to 'anything physical'? Conversational behavior or appearance? I ask because I find it fairly easy to change my conversation style in a broad range from stern and disinterested to class clown. Some aspects of appearance can be changed with clothing, hair styling, or makeup. On the other hand changing muscle tone, bulk, and BMI takes weeks or months of dedication, changing facial appearance requires surgery, and changing height or 'length' is essentially impossible.

[sad0]

ZA, I do think it’s abnormal what you talk about with some of the girls you are friend zoned in. Have you considered ditching these kinds of relationships? These women seem to treat you as a secondary friend to get their needs met. Do they care at all about you?

 

If you ditched them, they will definitely react. You’ll get some experience on feelingwhat it’s like to be in the driving seat of a relationship with a woman (even if it’s a friend zone relationship).

[Blanco]

Care to clarify? What are you comparing to 'anything physical'? Conversational behavior or appearance? I ask because I find it fairly easy to change my conversation style in a broad range from stern and disinterested to class clown. Some aspects of appearance can be changed with clothing, hair styling, or makeup. On the other hand changing muscle tone, bulk, and BMI takes weeks or months of dedication, changing facial appearance requires surgery, and changing height or 'length' is essentially impossible.

 

I meant as it relates to the OP. If I'm remembering correctly, he finds chit-chat to be a waste of time. I'm not advocating bland "How about this weather" talk, but there's a definite skill to having engaging or humorous small talk with those around you that I infer the OP does not have. In that sense, changing that would be akin to him physically altering something about himself to make himself more attractive: Difficult and time consuming, if possible at all.

[carhill]

Flirting and banter are an acquired skill for some, natural for others. Part of that is being comfortable with risk, that an emotional reaction may be unexpectedly negative, but to go with the flow, take the risk and accept the result and understand that emotions can be fleeting and often contradictory. IDK if OP has a typical scientific/engineering mind but one of the hardest lessons I had to learn, having one, was to throw all the math and logic out the window and see romance more as art and music. Huge lesson. My first inkling of the problem was, as a child, failing miserably when my mother attempted to teach me how to dance. She was an excellent dancer and I was an excellent model builder and chemistry kid. Total failure at art. That came home to roost when girls started to be of interest. Harsh lesson. Took a couple of decades being stubborn until finally getting the message. Girls aren't a math problem

[ZA Dater]

Again, this all assumes you have a great personality. Maybe you do. I'd propose that your posts at the very least suggest you would be a bit taxing to be around. You seem closed off to views that aren't your own. A lot of your posts have that lethal mix of someone who is not confident in himself yet also believes himself to be far superior to many.

 

In sum, online dating is going to lend itself more to visuals. Meeting people in the real world is going to give the average looking guy who's got legit charm a better shot with traditionally attractive women.

 

I was at a Christmas party last night where pretty much every remotely attractive woman was with a boyfriend or husband. Of the lot, maybe two or three were good looking guys. The rest were mediocre or below average. I see this sort of thing all the time, which flies in the face of your theory that looks are ultimately what matter to the woman. Physical attraction plays a role, but I've found that a guy who is OK looking who can also charm the woman is going to be far far more physically attractive to a woman than with the gender roles reversed.

 

Which leads me back to your personality. You seem intelligent and I'm sure you've got some interesting things to say. But you don't strike me as someone who is disarming or capable of light-hearted chats with a woman you find attractive but don't know that well. That matters way more than your appearance, but because that's as challenging to alter as anything physical, you seem content to continually blame superficiality on the woman's part as the crux of your failures with women.

 

 

Lets have a look at this. Light hearted in which way? I can do that just not often and with very few people. I am more than capable of laughing at myself and I often do this to try lighten up the whole date. Where it falls down is I become severely disinterested when there is no challenge from the other person. For example "you told me that you went to that pizza place, I haven't been yet, what did you think of it" and the answer I get is "its ok".

 

 

Why bother honestly? I suppose that's my problem too?

 

 

If I look the people I am in friend zone with the conversation flows between different topics seamlessly and there never a shortage of things to talk about and I actually get asked questions. Much is made of my "interview" technique but what I am suppose to do when the person isn't speaking of given expanded answers and usually isn't asking me anything either? 95% of all dates I have had have been like that.

 

 

When I go on dates its not like I sit and talk about middle east peace I try talk about the person, what they like, what their beliefs are their life story, what they believe in. However, it never really ever works because people just don't talk or they seemingly have nothing to say. At which point I will make fun of myself to try and get them to laugh at least. I try and find common points of interest but again its very, very difficult if the person isn't giving you anything to work with.

 

 

I do a whole multitude of things but very rarely do I talk about myself, if she was interested she would ask, or I try and sell myself and that never works either.

 

 

The people I do click with all have the same thing in common, all can talk about lots of things, all have this lovely open personality, all have massive confidence and I just find those attributes very difficult to find.

 

 

I can stand up and talk about lots of things, had to give an off the cuff speech last week and I got a standing ovation because I could connect with the audience.

 

 

However its VERY hard to try do any of this with dates because there isn't that intellectual connection, I had it instantly with K and sat for 3 hours talking to her.

[Garcon1986]

Keep those people around such as your favourite lady by the name of K.