cruelty during the affair.

[merrmeade]

john and i talked about this tonight at dinner....

 

For many years...I still expected him to kick me out...I just always felt like it was more than he could handle.

 

But I will say this...I have reached a place that if he came to me now and said he was leaving....I would be totally and completely blindsided.....and maybe i am where he was emotionally 32 years ago.

 

the thought of his leaving...the thought of not growing old together...is just more than i can bear.

 

Maybe that's why i can honestly say i feel the pain betrayed feel.....

 

LovinDKT3....I know you understand....you and your precious man inspire me. Thank you for your testimony....thank you for your hope.

This is so true. I used to fear talking about or answering questions about the affair because saying the wrong thing would cause him to walk out and cut me off. Once he did I wanted to tell him everything.

 

When we got back together he told me in was in for the long haul, which it took me a while to believe. Once I knew he meant it I felt comfortable and secure enough to be totally open and honest.

 

A safety zone, its important to have that.

No comment particularly on the segments in bold. Just liked them.

 

I personally don't hope for this and just need help and strength to accept my situation because it really would be absurd and selfish to think of starting over at my age (and really don't want to discuss it again, thank you). Otherwise, I totally agree that people are better off walking out.

 

But I'm glad you're both here and bearing witness. Glad there are people with the resources to work it out, to talk and become stronger for it. I do believe it would be possible and for most people even. I think the resources can be many—personal insight, communication skills, good counseling. And I think personal strength includes commitment to the marriage ideal, determination and persistence, ability to take risk.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade....would your husband be open to coming here?

[merrmeade]

During my wife's affair she became very distant and cold. Besides the obvious cruelty of the affair itself, her treatment towards me during that time was bad. After a few months into her affair, I began to consider the possibility of divorce based solely on how she was treating me during that period.

 

Her affair was during the Holiday season with a co-worker. I went with her to the company Christmas party. Things weren't good between us (lots of tension due to her affair), but we went anyways. As soon as we get to the house, she blows me off. As I'm at a party where I don't know anyone, she is hanging out with her boyfriend. Once I put all of the pieces together years later, I told her that was the most callous, emasculating thing she has ever done to me. Again, I didn't even know about the affair, and that night I almost left her at the party to find her own ride home. Now I know I was the schmuck husband sitting on the couch without a clue.

 

Her behavior was so "off". I now attribute it to her cognitive dissonance. She couldn't reconcile that fact that she was a "good person/wife" and a "cheater", so she completely shut me down. I tried to reach out to her, and ask her what was going on. She was mostly non-responsive. She avoided me. She avoided eye contact. I had no idea what was gong on with her. An affair was not even on my radar because prior to meeting the OM, our marriage was strong and passionate. Things changed so abruptly.

Wow, this is so painful to read - and the feeling, so familiar. I can see you and feel you, sitting on that couch, alone. The last paragraph, too. All of it. I wonder: Does she acknowledge her behavior? Understand how you felt?

 

My husband was a serial cheater, living with this dichotomy of what he'd done and who he allowed others to perceive him to be—the "good person/husband/father" who was, in reality, a "cheater." They were mostly EAs though many, many women simply became enamored with him, and his narcissistic cravings facilitated this. These women behaved around me as you describe: non-responsive, avoiding me, avoiding eye contact. This treatment happened on several occasions.

 

As for him, the same mental aberrations necessary to live with being such a hypocrite allow him to get over it. He is able simply to not think about it. Obviously he wouldn't want to talk about it. If he did, I think we both know either he'd go mad or kill himself. Of course, he COULD work through it in counseling but at great expense.

 

I am sure that all those women do the same thing. If they don't blame me through some convoluted process of rationalization, they just 'don't think about it' as he does. Accepting the pain of what you've done - as Mrs. JA has done - takes a special kind of human being.

 

I think now that my upbringing in a loving family in small-town America didn't help. It prevented my either being hurt or suspicious. The BSs who land here seem to have figured things out sooner. It's better.

[JohnAdams]

"Her behavior was so "off". ............ An affair was not even on my radar because prior to meeting the OM, our marriage was strong and passionate. Things changed so abruptly. "

 

 

"a trigger feels just like d-day all over again—worse because of all you know now. "

 

"The affair never goes away....but it is no longer the focal point....but the communication has to remain. "

 

"When it comes to cruelty, each and everyone of these posts have the same exact thing in common - lack of empathy."

 

Reading through this thread, this is a few of quotes that stuck out to me. To reach a point of healing, the ws has to feel true empathy towards the bs. If there was true empathy prior to the affair, there never would have been an affair. The ws has to either learn or return to being an empathetic person to begin the healing process.

[Mrs. John Adams]

"Her behavior was so "off". ............ An affair was not even on my radar because prior to meeting the OM, our marriage was strong and passionate. Things changed so abruptly. "

 

 

"a trigger feels just like d-day all over again—worse because of all you know now. "

 

"The affair never goes away....but it is no longer the focal point....but the communication has to remain. "

 

"When it comes to cruelty, each and everyone of these posts have the same exact thing in common - lack of empathy."

 

Reading through this thread, this is a few of quotes that stuck out to me. To reach a point of healing, the ws has to feel true empathy towards the bs. If there was true empathy prior to the affair, there never would have been an affair. The ws has to either learn or return to being an empathetic person to begin the healing process.

 

And reading through this list...each thing you highlighted rings true in our relationship...

 

Amazing how affairs are so different..yet so alike.

 

Empathy is one of those things that is hard to explain....which I think is why for years I thought I was giving you what you needed...but empathy is not just a feeling...it is an action.

 

The wayward needs to not only have empathy for her wayward....she has to show it...she has to do something about it.

 

That's the difference.....

 

And I believe the first step has to be acknowledging the pain....and you cannot do that if you are still tied up in your own pain and feeling sorry for yourself.

 

This is a very hard thing for a wayward to see....very hard.... Because even though I knew what I did was wrong and I was sorry for it....I was still feeling sorry for myself.

[road]

No offense but that can sound glib to someone who just triggered. Remembering or realizing something new about the affair is a trigger, and a trigger feels just like d-day all over again—worse because of all you know now. In no time, you can be sucked into a funk that is big or small, short- or long-lasting, depending on other life circumstances. If your partner doesn't help, then the support of friends or family can make all the difference, just knowing that someone puts you first. I've lost my parents and a brother, yet the response of the surviving brother, when I finally told him, lifted the depression that had debilitated me for 3 years. Even now, a trigger can start the cycle going again, and the value of life itself even falls into question.

 

 

 

 

It is not glib it is fact. With time triggers happen less often and dwell time spent on the trigger is greatly reduced.

 

 

Rehashing what has happened after all of this has been talked out between the WS and the BS will prevent the frequency and the duration of the triggers from decreasing. Picking at the scab keeps the wound from healing. There is nothing to gain except to beat the WS over the head years later for the affair.

 

 

That is not recovering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are consequences from having an affair an consequences from recovering from an affair.

[SoulStorm]

I am really enjoying this thread. It sheds so much light on the rationalization of BS and WS alike during and after an affair.

 

Great Thread.

[purplesorrow]

I disagree....I think talking about feelings has to continue....and especially for the wayward...talking about emotions and hurts...keeps it real.

 

I am not saying talking about details and blame....I mean talking about feelings and emotions.

 

The affair never goes away....but it is no longer the focal point....but the communication has to remain.

 

I completely agree with the above. Though divorced, we still discuss the affair. It is usually him that brings it up. It is no longer an emotional topic for me because I'm not in the marriage. I think the talks are healing for both. He is still in ic working out all of his kinks so I think that's why he brings it up. Good thread.

[Mrs. John Adams]

It is not glib it is fact. With time triggers happen less often and dwell time spent on the trigger is greatly reduced.

 

 

Rehashing what has happened after all of this has been talked out between the WS and the BS will prevent the frequency and the duration of the triggers from decreasing. Picking at the scab keeps the wound from healing. There is nothing to gain except to beat the WS over the head years later for the affair.

 

 

That is not recovering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are consequences from having an affair an consequences from recovering from an affair.

 

There are some wounds that need to be opened in order to heal....it can scab over but infection and puss is inside....

 

If you don't get it cleaned out it doesn't heal properly.

 

And some wounds are left to drain...and heal from the inside out.

 

Good communication is needed...even years later.

 

If hurts are discussed with love and understanding....it promotes healing.

[merrmeade]

You are both right but in most or all of these examples and explanations, the one variable you're not taking into account is the mental health and character of the WS. And I mean exactly that:

• mental health (in touch with one's own as well as others' experience of reality)
  
• and character (integrity, needing harmony between professed values and morality lived).
  

If the transgressions were so bad that the WS can't talk about it without going mad or killing himself, then the BS has to decide what s/he can live with if the WS will not do counseling.

[qubist]

"when it comes to cruelty, each and everyone of these posts have the same exact thing in common - lack of empathy."

 

reading through this thread, this is a few of quotes that stuck out to me. To reach a point of healing, the ws has to feel true empathy towards the bs. If there was true empathy prior to the affair, there never would have been an affair. The ws has to either learn or return to being an empathetic person to begin the healing process.

can you elaborate more on what you meant by empathy here

[purplesorrow]

It is not glib it is fact. With time triggers happen less often and dwell time spent on the trigger is greatly reduced.

 

 

Rehashing what has happened after all of this has been talked out between the WS and the BS will prevent the frequency and the duration of the triggers from decreasing. Picking at the scab keeps the wound from healing. There is nothing to gain except to beat the WS over the head years later for the affair.

 

 

That is not recovering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are consequences from having an affair an consequences from recovering from an affair.

 

This may be the case for you, it isn't true for everyone. We can talk about the same old affair now and learn something new. We can see how our viewpoints have changed as we healed. For me, there is no value in putting something that had such impact on my life in a vault. My triggers didn't lessen because I divorced, they lessened because we never stopped discussing it. It has less and less power the more it's broken down and discussed.

[JohnAdams]

If any item is taboo in a couples communications, there is an issue. The good, bad and ugly all need to be discussed. An affair is now part of the couples history and like any subject is fair game in open and honest communications.

[qubist]

If any item is taboo in a couples communications, there is an issue. The good, bad and ugly all need to be discussed. An affair is now part of the couples history and like any subject is fair game in open and honest communications.

if only everyone's relationship was this perfect, I assume getting to this point where the bad, good and the ugly are on the table takes an involvement of special people or people that went trough a lot

[Mrs. John Adams]

You are both right but in most or all of these examples and explanations, the one variable you're not taking into account is the mental health and character of the WS. And I mean exactly that:

• mental health (in touch with one's own as well as others' experience of reality)
  
• and character (integrity, needing harmony between professed values and morality lived).
  

If the transgressions were so bad that the WS can't talk about it without going mad or killing himself, then the BS has to decide what s/he can live with if the WS will not do counseling.

 

Mermeade my sweet friend...I apologize for my lack of sensitivity to your observation.

 

You are absolutely correct.....I truly believe there are those individuals who are emotionally no capable of understanding or experiencing remorse of any kind.

Individuals who suffer mental health issues certainly cannot.

 

It is so unfortunate..because now the betrayed has to carry the whole burden of the infidelity with no hope of ever receiving any help from the wayward.

 

And what are you supposed to do in this situation? Do you throw up your hands an abandon the wayward? And if you do...what happens? And does the betrayed relieve themselves of the individual but still carry the burden?

 

I am sure they do.

[merrmeade]

It is not glib it is fact. With time triggers happen less often and dwell time spent on the trigger is greatly reduced.

 

Rehashing what has happened after all of this has been talked out between the WS and the BS will prevent the frequency and the duration of the triggers from decreasing. Picking at the scab keeps the wound from healing. There is nothing to gain except to beat the WS over the head years later for the affair.

 

That is not recovering.

 

There are consequences from having an affair an consequences from recovering from an affair.

Agreed IF it's really the case that "all of this has been talked out between the WS and the BS." If the WS hasn't talked and, therefore, hasn't acknowledged, it's not REhashing. It's the BS's choice to stay and find pleasure, love or satisfaction in the present, granted, but the BS shouldn't be admonished for occasional ambushes from a trigger. That kind of finger-shaking will send us underground in hopeless acquiescence. I wonder how many BSs give up at such a juncture (eg, commit suicide).

[Mrs. John Adams]

if only everyone's relationship was this perfect, I assume getting to this point where the bad, good and the ugly are on the table takes an involvement of special people or people that went trough a lot

 

It took many years to reach the point that everything could be discussed without causing panic...

When not in the right frame of mind.... I would shut down...absolutely recoil within myself...I did not want to hear it ...I did not want to discuss it....

 

You see this is what I mean by feeling sorry for myself....I was still wallowing in self pity for me...how could I possibly understand his pain.....

 

In this mindset...empathy is impossible....and folks...I am talking years.....I did this for years.

 

If we had tried therapy again...if we had had the Internet and forums like this one...maybe I would have progressed quicker....and that is something we will never know.

 

And the other thing I want to point out is this....

 

If a wayward is not emotionally ready to take the next step to empathy....all the books and forums in the world are not going to register with them.

 

My heart was ready.....I had lived thirty Octobers....in fear that John was going to trigger and go into depression. I had done everything I knew to do....

But something changed in my heart ....and this time I was ready to take on whatever it was I needed to do to heal him. He sensed something had changed....and that was when he asked me to read how to help your spouse heal from your affair.

 

I could not put it down....I read it and heard myself over and over saying the very things Linda macdonald said waywards say...and I did the very things she said waywards do....

 

I finally understood....

[ShatteredLady]

Quote - "If the transgressions were so bad that the WS can't talk about it without going mad or killing himself, then the BS has to decide what s/he can live with if the WS will not do counseling."

 

My brother took his own life. I know the absolute emotional carnage that loved ones have to endure after suicide. I will never forget my only sibling. I just reaching the point that I can occasionally think of him without being devastated by his death.

 

My H has put me through hell. New Years Day it all started. He was contemplating divorce. Struggling with the choice to leave his crippled wife & 2 young children to persue "Love, Romance & Adventure" or selflessly stay & resign himself to a lifetime of 'blah', nothingness. (He informed me by posting on my Chronic Pain forum where I advised others).

 

I believed it was all my fault. He was "Choosing" so if I said or did the correct things I could save my family but if I said or did something wrong? Ugh!! He became a nightmare to live with. "If I loved him I would know what to do. If he had to tell me I'd only be doing it because he told me to!". I drove myself insane!

 

I planned on taking my children home to England to stay with my parents so I could regain some sanity & give him space to make his difficult choice.

 

On Mothers Day I found that he had sent flowers to his long Ex OW! It was our first D-Day of sorts. I was completely blindsided. I'd believed him completely when he'd shouted "Of course there isn't another woman!". Suddenly it all made sense! The only time he'd ever been cruel like that was the last time he was having an A with her.

 

I was in shock. I was angry. He was GUILTY!! He was caught! He responded with "I was planning on KILLING MYSELF while you were in England!". That shut me up! Given my history with my beloved brother & the constant pain I have over the disaster his children's lives have become he KNEW that would stop me accusing him & make me suddenly guilty & protective of HIM!! it made me buy the lie "She's just a friend!". It made me feel like a terrible person for pushing him so far with my bloody health problems.

 

 

Back to your quote above....

SUICIDE. His incredible pain & guilt. His depression made HIM the victim. How could I give voice to my agony if it might push him over the edge? I became the guilty one. How can you possibly deal with the love of your life being suicidal? How could I layer on more pain by talking about how I felt about him telling his ex mistress that she was "The Best Mother in the World!" (when I missing events with my kids because of my surgery & health). How could I hurt him by expressing how devastated I was that he had brought back the worst time in my life by breaking no contact with her??

 

 

I've since discovered that of course they weren't "just friends". I was a full on EA. I've also found that he was looking into flights or driving to see her while I was away with the kids. He even had maps planning his route if he chose to drive!!!! No research into suicide!!! Lots of research into consummating their A. I feel like I was taken for a fool & manipulated in the cruelest way.

 

I'm not doubting that your H feels guilty & bad for what he's done. Just be careful you're not being manipulated into rug sweeping. I NEVER thought my H would sink so low. I know it was a self-preserving gut reaction. He didn't want to face the embarrassment of what he'd done. Who would? But as a BS I needed, I NEED to be heard for my own sanity, my own life!!

[qubist]

shatteredlady: I have followed your story through all your threads, it is one of the saddest stories in this forum, How are you feeling? I really hope you are coping with all the physical and emotional pain.

as for the cruelty of manipulating the BS into feeling guilt like in your case your H used the suicide card to shift the guilt to you. i think this one of the worst, not just because it was an attempt to drift away from the A but also because it added more pain . I guess WS in general are only worried about protecting themselves and their A.

[Mr Blunt]

By Mrs. John Adams

If a wayward is not emotionally ready to take the next step to empathy....all the books and forums in the world are not going to register with them.

 

My heart was ready.....I had lived thirty Octobers....in fear that John was going to trigger and go into depression. I had done everything I knew to do....

But something changed in my heart ....and this time I was ready to take on whatever it was I needed to do to heal him. He sensed something had changed....and that was when he asked me to read how to help your spouse heal from your affair.

 

I could not put it down....I read it and heard myself over and over saying the very things Linda macdonald said waywards say...and I did the very things she said waywards do....

 

I finally understood....

….but empathy is not just a feeling...it is an action.

 

The wayward needs to not only have empathy for her wayward....she has to show it...she has to do something about it.

 

That's the difference.....

 

I think that Mrs. John Adams could be a great counselor for the WS. There are people that I think have a recovery from infidelity that is good, and some very good. I think that Mr. and Mrs. Adams recovery is excellent! There are some situations in couples that just are not going to do what it takes to get to the excellent. In my case, we have settled for good and at times very good. We also have a few times that we are below good but that is seldom.

 

 

 

Back to the issue about talking about the infidelity. As I said, “at a certain point my counselor told me to not bring up the affair….” I did what the counselor advised and we have over 20 years of mostly good recovery. Would we have an even better recovery if we did what Mrs. Did? I am pretty sure we would be in the excellent category but my wife is just not going to do what Mrs. Adams did. I am not trying to put her in a bad light, she has been faithful for over 20 years and has done some very good things for herself and the whole family. In my world, actions speak louder than words; however, I think that Mrs. Adam’s way would add words to the actions that would put the recovery into the excellent category from time to time. No need for anyone to feel sorry for me as I have a good life and am contented almost all of the time. My wife is a good person but has her weaknesses just like we all do.

 

 

I do think that, me not bringing up the affair to my wife, was what was needed at that time. I do think that Mrs. JA’s method now would produce more positive results but that is not up to me and I am contented with my life. As Mrs. Adams stated "something changed in my heart" so I think that the change has to come from the WS and not so much from the BS.

 

 

 

I have always been a B (very good) student in college but did have one or two Cs, so my married life seems to reflect my academic life in college. I would suspect that Mr. and Mrs. John Adams are on the honor roll!

[Jersey born raised]

Mrs Adams,

 

I really liked your use of the word panic and not pain. I caused me to realize that yes both are front and center in a BS response.

 

Thanks

[Mrs. John Adams]

My dear long time Friend...mr. Blunt.....

 

I am so happy you have joined us here at Loveshack. You will find this place is full of very wonderful people....it is a kinder , gentler place than other forums....very well moderated....and there are a lot more women present here...to make it a more well rounded place.

 

I would like to ask you..do you think there will ever be a time in your relationship...where you might discuss things with your wife again?

do you think....you could ask her to read the macdonald book? Do you think...that the affair is now far enough removed....that her heart may have changed?

 

Only you can know the answer to my questions.....but i would hate for you to live the rest of your life not at least trying to see if she might now after twenty years be ready.

 

Two years ago....my affair was still in the present tense. When John would trigger in october....it was like experiencing DDAY again.

 

Now...i can honestly tell you...my affair seems so very long ago. We have come to a place where my affair is in our history...a tragedy that happened a long time ago...but is not in the present.

 

I never thought i would be able to say that....

 

These past two years have brought tremendous healing for the both of us....and it has been almost unbelievable how quickly the healing has now occurred.

 

I don't know if it is because we were just so ready for it to happen and everything seemed to finally fall into place...but whatever the reason....i am grateful.

 

I want to tell those of you who have made kind comments to john and i...we appreciate them very much.

 

It truly is our desire to share with you in hopes that it will help your journey...and give you hope. Honestly...if we can do this....so can you. just keep on trying.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade and Shatteredlady....I have a dear friend i have asked to join this forum. Her husband suffers from ptsd...and he had an affair.

 

She has such remarkable insight...and i am hoping she might be able to speak with you ladies....

 

I will let you know if and when she arrives.....i met her on another site....and she has truly inspired me.

[flowergirl14]

You can't be a good partner UNTIL you're a good person.

This is also a great piece of advice for bs who feel that they in some way were responsible for the affair. Until the wayward spouse is truly authentic and remorseful. Until and unless they are Willing to do the work and be truthful. They are Not a good person and it doesnt matter how "good a person/partner" the bs is. The bs can never do enough be enough if your partner is not a good person by their own choice and actions. I think i fell into that mode of if I am sexier, funnier, more thoughtful, more this,that and the other he wont "want" to cheat. Wrong! Either they are a good person or not!

[ShatteredLady]

Qubist & Mrs Adams. Thank you so much! I've been in the 'penalty box' here at LS for the last week ;-(

 

I had a specialist health appointment this morning. I'm still processing. She tried to reassure me...one step at a time.

 

I feel like the A has been rug-swept. I've asked my questions, got answers. I have all the passwords. I'm as certain as I can be that it's over. I feel like it was a surreal nightmare. Not quite real but the agony just crushes me out of nowhere. I NEED to talk about everything but I've runout of things to say...not that I've said that much. I feel like I need reassurances. I just want to feel safe. I want some certainty in my life. I feel so powerless about EVERYTHING in my life.

 

Last night my H was quiet & down. I asked if he was ok. He said he had a lot on his mind, tons of work stress etc. I pushed & asked if we were ok. He seemed shocked that I'd question that! Said "Of course we are!! Aren't we??". It's like it was the last thing on his mind! How can it just be over, just like that? How can it NOT be on his mind? It's crippling me!! It's consuming.

 

Do others feel like this when it's over? In August I was still finding mails & getting trickle truth. It hasn't been that long but it feels like an eternity...

 

October & Halloween is a huge trigger for me. It was the start of November that he started emailing her again & Mr Alien moved-in. For the longest time I knew I'd done something wrong last October. I've analyzed everyday of that month! Ugh!!!

 

I'd like to talk to your friend Mrs Adams. Insight would be wonderful. It's still a very lonely place out here.