cruelty during the affair.

[katielee]

 

Pain....self absorbed pain. I never think about the affair until you make me....and then when you make me...it hurts...so stop doing it.

 

this is what i mean when i say...as a wayward...we have to let go of our own pain to understand the pain of the betrayed.

 

 

this is so true. That's why SHAME is a killer in a wayward. Stay there for a while, but you can't set up camp there. No one likes to be reminded of the bad things they've done. But if it helps someone else to talk about it seriously, that need supercedes the pain of the WS. And after a while, if the WS has done their work, there shouldn't be much pain at all.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...

 

Embarrassment and shame are when we are worrying about how it looks to others.....that is when we are still giving reasons and excuses.

 

I am talking about when we look at the betrayed...and we say things like...why are you punishing me? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you hurting me?You are making me feel bad....why are you doing this to me?

 

We are selfishly thinking about OUR hurt instead of theirs.

[katielee]

I know, Mrs. JA. I agree. I would never think of it as punishment if my BS wanted to talk about what I did. I would think of it as an opportunity to help him heal.

[merrmeade]

Katielee...

 

Embarrassment and shame are when we are worrying about how it looks to others.....that is when we are still giving reasons and excuses.

 

I am talking about when we look at the betrayed...and we say things like...why are you punishing me? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you hurting me?You are making me feel bad....why are you doing this to me?

 

We are selfishly thinking about OUR hurt instead of theirs.

Yes, that's exactly what they're thinking. And so, why or how do they get beyond that or even care about the inherent selfishness of this position? No one else can make someone want to be unselfish. I usually think that it has to come from within and is really only possible because at their core they are solid and whole. They had a nurturing childhood and KNOW they are good and lovable, so they can afford to acknowledge their past actions or their bad parts without identifying with them. They can be the person that restores their partner with love, understanding and truth.

 

But nevermind. These are just daydreams ...

[merrmeade]

I know, Mrs. JA. I agree. I would never think of it as punishment if my BS wanted to talk about what I did. I would think of it as an opportunity to help him heal.

Wait a minute - I think I was identifying you as a BS, but come to think of it, you were both BS and WS, right?

[katielee]

yes merrmeade - and hubby and I have very different ways of being each - ha!

[merrmeade]

this is so true. That's why SHAME is a killer in a wayward. Stay there for a while, but you can't set up camp there. No one likes to be reminded of the bad things they've done. But if it helps someone else to talk about it seriously, that need supercedes the pain of the WS. And after a while, if the WS has done their work, there shouldn't be much pain at all.

So I just wrote several questions that answered themselves as I worked on the wording, trying to clarify. I was going to ask what you meant by "done their work." How does a WS embrace the importance of doing this work and feel motivated to do it? How does s/he rise above the awfulness of the shame feelings that invariably accompany any conversation or reminder of past actions?

 

That answered itself. They simply can't until they can separate what they did from who they want to be. And whatever work there is after that, this has to be done first.

[katielee]

They simply can't until they can separate what they did from who they want to be. And whatever work there is after that, this has to be done first.

 

yes. I can only give my own experience. When i confessed to my husband I thought I will drive off this bridge OR I will tell him the truth. It was apparent that I was ready to kill myself living a lie. So the only way to "do life" was to be authentic. How I was doing my life was NOT working so I HAD TO CHANGE. That meant, for me, living a very authentic life. Always being truthful, looking at my FOO issues, healing myself so I would have a better life and so that I could at least not make things worse for those I loved and at the most help them live a better life. I had to sit down and clarify my values and what I would stand up for. And that battle was all inside myself and had nothing to do with anyone else.

 

You can't be a good partner UNTIL you're a good person.

[Lion Heart]

The day after D Day (number 1, 10 mths ago) WH drove me to OWs house at my insistence. OW had been so distraught during my phonecall with her the night b4 towards the end of the call after she had asked me all about our M and I answered her honestly. Eg how when we'd been away for the weekend, we'd had sex. She wailed like a banshee. It was HORRIBLE. I was truly worried about how devastated she was. She said she was just as devastated as me...more so even. Wtf? She wanted to be my friend, meet for coffee etc. She wished WH HAD built the small brick wall he'd said he would. So I expected to make him build it. (I thought he'd gotten sexual favours in return for building work...who knows). She wasn't home. She'd been taken to hospital the night before. I never went back. Yeah she still wanted to be friends.

 

ON THE WAY there I asked WH "what WAS it that was SO good about OW?"

His reply had been "she was really interesting, she was a clairvoyant"

What does she look like?

"Well she's taller than you and her t**s are bigger"

 

OMG a few HOURS after D Day. It wasn't what he said. It was HOW he'd compared her to me. Chose her over me. Because of those TWO attributes? I was livid.

 

After D Day Number 2 just over 3 weeks ago (multiple women over years), these are the cruel comments that came out:

"Yeah I know she was 70 but she was kinda sexy for her age (with a dreamy look)" "Yeah she was an older lady but she had a really nice bob (hair do). She looked after herself."

My friend:

"I was really curious about her breast augmentation. I wanted to see where they cut and what they looked like. They looked really nice. It was a really good job."

"She was taller than you and had high heels on and a sexy dress with a g-string"

Bigger woman than me:

"She was bigger than you. I wasn't that attracted to her. We only kissed. I didn't want to go back."

There are more, many more comments just like these.

All of them:

"They were really easy to talk to. They were kind and made me cups of tea. They were really interesting." In a nutshell.

 

Ahem. WH talking about his OWs to me, his devastated Betrayed Wife. I guess it's hard to open up with me!

 

WH called me a "manipulative B****, IMPOSSIBLE to live with. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 15 LONG B*****Y YEARS"

"Boring how you want to talk about the kids or the house or your work...I don't care about YOUR work. I don't want to HEAR about the PEOPLE at your work." Over 700 of them. Ok.

 

He also SCREAMED 20-30 things at me over the first few weeks after D Day No 1 about ALL the things he'd HAVE TO HAVE in HIS life to make it "bearable" to keep living here with us. OMG.

The "Think I've nailed it" list was UNBELIEVABLE. He demanded that he played poker for money (he's hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt). Mostly time away from us.

 

Not ONE thing involving the kids. The only way I was mentioned was for sex "frequent and varied"!!!! Sorry I can't be MANY women. I'm just me. Boring. Sorry yes, he wanted to accompany us on ALL trips (I have lots of paid leave available each year) as long as I pay for it all! Yay, gee that'd be ffffun.

 

I texted him that list one day. He said he remembered saying those things but he'd alter it. We were barely mentioned in the improved list.

 

Now that I'm divorcing him, he still asks why? Why? And doesn't believe I will. I will.

 

WH might write a different list after a few months or years of living at his parents. Paying the mortgage here as he's promised to the kids. He'll be living that list. Good!

 

Maybe he'll sit in that room he feels "happiness" in (yeah he said that too) and realize HE GOT EVERYTHING he wished for for years. He got what he focussed on. He can have every single thing on his list and maybe realize they're empty things.

Maybe he'll experience true happiness. IDK but it's none of my concern. WH is not my concern any more. He made his beds all over town and apparently they're not as exciting as they were now I know! Oh too bad.

 

Yep 3am.

 

New day.

 

Wishing you well in your recovery.

 

Lion Heart.

[qubist]

The day after D Day (number 1, 10 mths ago) WH drove me to OWs house at my insistence. OW had been so distraught during my phonecall with her the night b4 towards the end of the call after she had asked me all about our M and I answered her honestly. Eg how when we'd been away for the weekend, we'd had sex. She wailed like a banshee. It was HORRIBLE. I was truly worried about how devastated she was. She said she was just as devastated as me...more so even. Wtf? She wanted to be my friend, meet for coffee etc. She wished WH HAD built the small brick wall he'd said he would. So I expected to make him build it. (I thought he'd gotten sexual favours in return for building work...who knows). She wasn't home. She'd been taken to hospital the night before. I never went back. Yeah she still wanted to be friends.

 

ON THE WAY there I asked WH "what WAS it that was SO good about OW?"

His reply had been "she was really interesting, she was a clairvoyant"

What does she look like?

"Well she's taller than you and her t**s are bigger"

 

OMG a few HOURS after D Day. It wasn't what he said. It was HOW he'd compared her to me. Chose her over me. Because of those TWO attributes? I was livid.

 

After D Day Number 2 just over 3 weeks ago (multiple women over years), these are the cruel comments that came out:

"Yeah I know she was 70 but she was kinda sexy for her age (with a dreamy look)" "Yeah she was an older lady but she had a really nice bob (hair do). She looked after herself."

My friend:

"I was really curious about her breast augmentation. I wanted to see where they cut and what they looked like. They looked really nice. It was a really good job."

"She was taller than you and had high heels on and a sexy dress with a g-string"

Bigger woman than me:

"She was bigger than you. I wasn't that attracted to her. We only kissed. I didn't want to go back."

There are more, many more comments just like these.

All of them:

"They were really easy to talk to. They were kind and made me cups of tea. They were really interesting." In a nutshell.

 

Ahem. WH talking about his OWs to me, his devastated Betrayed Wife. I guess it's hard to open up with me!

 

WH called me a "manipulative B****, IMPOSSIBLE to live with. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 15 LONG B*****Y YEARS"

"Boring how you want to talk about the kids or the house or your work...I don't care about YOUR work. I don't want to HEAR about the PEOPLE at your work." Over 700 of them. Ok.

 

He also SCREAMED 20-30 things at me over the first few weeks after D Day No 1 about ALL the things he'd HAVE TO HAVE in HIS life to make it "bearable" to keep living here with us. OMG.

The "Think I've nailed it" list was UNBELIEVABLE. He demanded that he played poker for money (he's hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt). Mostly time away from us.

 

Not ONE thing involving the kids. The only way I was mentioned was for sex "frequent and varied"!!!! Sorry I can't be MANY women. I'm just me. Boring. Sorry yes, he wanted to accompany us on ALL trips (I have lots of paid leave available each year) as long as I pay for it all! Yay, gee that'd be ffffun.

 

I texted him that list one day. He said he remembered saying those things but he'd alter it. We were barely mentioned in the improved list.

 

Now that I'm divorcing him, he still asks why? Why? And doesn't believe I will. I will.

 

WH might write a different list after a few months or years of living at his parents. Paying the mortgage here as he's promised to the kids. He'll be living that list. Good!

 

Maybe he'll sit in that room he feels "happiness" in (yeah he said that too) and realize HE GOT EVERYTHING he wished for for years. He got what he focussed on. He can have every single thing on his list and maybe realize they're empty things.

Maybe he'll experience true happiness. IDK but it's none of my concern. WH is not my concern any more. He made his beds all over town and apparently they're not as exciting as they were now I know! Oh too bad.

 

Yep 3am.

 

New day.

 

Wishing you well in your recovery.

 

Lion Heart.

Did he really ask why why why ? Geeez I feel for you Lion heart. He must be the most egoist in the world

[TrustedthenBusted]

Wow. What money. Who cares about money lost. Something of value way above money was lost.

 

Agreed. That's why I listed it as the most cruel thing she did. The money really didn't matter, but it added insult to injury because it was such a horrible thing to do, and in the end, she also pissed away thousands of dollars doing it.

 

If I had it all to do over again, I would have just winked at her, said goodbye, and got on the plane.

[TrustedthenBusted]

you have to admire the wisdom in her strategy. she was very cold, calculating and methodical in her approach.

but the kind of person who thinks things through, before executing a plan. smart maybe?

 

Honestly, her "plan" was two part. Remember, we have children, so there was no guarantee that me being out of the picture would mean they'd get to spend any more time together, and they hadn't actually "planned" anything for the time I was gone. This I confirmed through their email exchanges.

 

The stupid thing was....it was all really just a way for her to show off. As I've mentioned before, she is a very successful executive, and he was a shlumpy low level guy in the company. So her sending her husband away on an extravagant ski weekend ( which she went into great detail about ) was almost more about her showing off her power and money to HIM, than it was about getting me gone.

 

I think WS's often want to impress their APs with stuff like this, and the cruelty of what it all means to the BS just doesn't hit them until....well, until it does.

[drifter777]

I didn't have any conversation with my cheating wife from d-day until a month later when she begged me to come home. When I agreed, the cruelty started immediately in that she was so narcissistic she thought I should be happy that she found out how much she loved me. That screwing OM was an important experience for her and now she wants to commit to our marriage. Zero remorse. Only gas lighting. It still amazes me how easily she was able to brainwash me with the "I needed to do it" sh*t. I guess her attitude coupled with my confused, scared, and hurt state of mind made it easy. She is 100% responsible for cheating. I am 100% responsible for staying with her. And, as I've said many times, I will never forgive myself for that horrible decision.

 

Cruelty at and shortly after d-day is, to me, the saddest thing any BS ever posts. I remember how stunned and wounded I was at that time. The world didn't make sense and my ability to trust anything crushed. For the WS to take advantage of the BS when in that vulnerable state is beyond cruel - it's diabolical.

[ladydesigner]

I didn't have any conversation with my cheating wife from d-day until a month later when she begged me to come home. When I agreed, the cruelty started immediately in that she was so narcissistic she thought I should be happy that she found out how much she loved me. That screwing OM was an important experience for her and now she wants to commit to our marriage. Zero remorse. Only gas lighting. It still amazes me how easily she was able to brainwash me with the "I needed to do it" sh*t. I guess her attitude coupled with my confused, scared, and hurt state of mind made it easy. She is 100% responsible for cheating. I am 100% responsible for staying with her. And, as I've said many times, I will never forgive myself for that horrible decision.

 

Cruelty at and shortly after d-day is, to me, the saddest thing any BS ever posts. I remember how stunned and wounded I was at that time. The world didn't make sense and my ability to trust anything crushed. For the WS to take advantage of the BS when in that vulnerable state is beyond cruel - it's diabolical.

 

It's sickening isn't it? It's almost like they are banking on the BS forever wallowing in their own shock, bewilderment, self-hate, shame and uncertainty.

 

Thank god I opened my eyes!

[Raven3321]

The cruelest thing my ex did was one day call me out of the blue. We were in the middle of divorcing due to her affair. Seeing we hadn't spoken in months while she conducted her affair, the call itself was unusual. I also thought it odd at first that she didn't have anything in particular to say. She always had an agenda so this was odd. Just small talk so I didn't notice it. At first.

 

 

 

 

That's when I realized they were actually having sex while she was on the phone.

[HereNorThere]

When it comes to cruelty, each and everyone of these posts have the same exact thing in common - lack of empathy.

 

Whether you believe that it's a biological construct (mirror neurons, prefrontal cortex higher thinking) or you believe it's a learned behavior, you simply cannot be this cruel to someone if have have empathy. Not sympathy, empathy. A lot people do not realize there is a difference between the two.

 

Personally, I believe that it's both biological and a learned trait. Not all people possess the capacity for it and even if you do, you are still taught by others in your life. On the other hand, some people are taught empathy, but lack the cognitive function to be able grasp it. Lack of empathy is a symptom in a lot of developmental, emotional and personality issues.

 

Not all people can get better or help themselves. Some may never cheat again, but only out fear of consequence. You really have to dig deep to understand your partners motivations. Taking the time to better understand the person you are with without giving them the benefit of the doubt really increases your chance of survival with these people.

[Lion Heart]

The cruelest thing my ex did was one day call me out of the blue. We were in the middle of divorcing due to her affair. Seeing we hadn't spoken in months while she conducted her affair, the call itself was unusual. I also thought it odd at first that she didn't have anything in particular to say. She always had an agenda so this was odd. Just small talk so I didn't notice it. At first.

 

 

 

 

That's when I realized they were actually having sex while she was on the phone.

 

No.

No!

No!!!!!

 

I started to wretch after reading that.

No. That is THE CRUELEST, sickest thing I have EVER heard.

How disgusting.

How immoral.

 

That thing disguised as a human is inhumane.

 

I bl**dy well hope you changed your number after that.

 

Don't think I could live in the same country as that.

 

Ugh. Crowned King I'm afraid in infidelity land.

 

I'm sorry for your horror.

 

Many hugs

Lion Heart.

[qubist]

The cruelest thing my ex did was one day call me out of the blue. We were in the middle of divorcing due to her affair. Seeing we hadn't spoken in months while she conducted her affair, the call itself was unusual. I also thought it odd at first that she didn't have anything in particular to say. She always had an agenda so this was odd. Just small talk so I didn't notice it. At first.

 

 

 

 

That's when I realized they were actually having sex while she was on the phone.

Raven I'm speechless this gotta be the mother of all cruelty . I hope you are doing ok now

[Lion Heart]

Did he really ask why why why ? Geeez I feel for you Lion heart. He must be the most egoist in the world

 

Yes. Prince Charming WH.

 

I think just why...why... (not THREE times lol). Why when I'm gonna see a psych to work my sh** out.

Lion Heart: so you knew it was wrong.

WH (at first): well it wasn't THAT wrong. I never scr**ed ANY of them. You've got to believe me.

LH: why? Didn't you buy any condoms?

WH: no you're right. I didn't have any condoms..... (switch personality / wake up / go fog go / remember who he's talking to)... you see I never WANTED to. I didn't even LIKE doing that sh**. I really wanted to come home and make love to my wife.

LH so why didn't you? I was home. Those dates I was home. I'd invited you home on many occasions to "be" with me.

WH: yeah. I forgot. I never wanted to be with _______ in a SEXUAL way. Not "have sex" G**! That is DISGUSTING!! YOU ARE DISGUSTING EVEN THINKING I'd want to do that with HER. G** she's ugly. You're beautiful. You're gorgeous.

LH: really? REALLY. Then how come (blank) said you did! You were pressuring her the WHOLE ENTIRE 3 months?

WH: well I got there and couldn't really get __ _______, so I figured she couldn't do it for me ..... (switch personality)....you see I realized THEN at that VERY moment that I LERVED YOU AND THE KIDS. See? I love you Lion Heart. I really do. (No tears. None. Just a wonderful performance.)

 

Ooow. Which personality loves Lion Heart. Oh dear. Curtains close.

Applause.

 

How ridiculous. And WH wants to TAPE these conversations for his psych! OMG. Crash course in lunacy.

 

Lion Heart.

[qubist]

Lion heart :that was some award winning calibre type of performance. I'm going to read your story

[Raven3321]

Raven I'm speechless this gotta be the mother of all cruelty . I hope you are doing ok now

 

Thanks lion heart and qubist. This was in the late 80's so I'm OK now. Betrayal is tantamount to emotional trauma. It changes your entire life. So in that sense it took years till I was able to look at myself in the mirror. One thing that helped was deciding to forgive her despite her. It took six months to completely forgive her to the point that what she did didn't hurt anymore.

 

The second thing that helped was another phone call from her about 5 years later. Again out of the blue. She said she was cooking steaks and wanted to know if I wanted to come over. I didn't want to see her ever again. However, I did want to see the steaks. I knew what she was up to but I went just for kicks. Anyway in the course of the evening she basically apologized for the affair including how she treated me. The OM was a co-worker and over the course of time she found out that she was the fourth married woman he had bedded at her job. 3 of the four marriages he had destroyed. When she found out she was merely a bed toy, she finally felt shame and regret. Although I had no intention of taking her back, it was still good to hear. By the way, the steaks were delicious.

[qubist]

Thanks lion heart and qubist. This was in the late 80's so I'm OK now. Betrayal is tantamount to emotional trauma. It changes your entire life. So in that sense it took years till I was able to look at myself in the mirror. One thing that helped was deciding to forgive her despite her. It took six months to completely forgive her to the point that what she did didn't hurt anymore.

 

The second thing that helped was another phone call from her about 5 years later. Again out of the blue. She said she was cooking steaks and wanted to know if I wanted to come over. I didn't want to see her ever again. However, I did want to see the steaks. I knew what she was up to but I went just for kicks. Anyway in the course of the evening she basically apologized for the affair including how she treated me. The OM was a co-worker and over the course of time she found out that she was the fourth married woman he had bedded at her job. 3 of the four marriages he had destroyed. When she found out she was merely a bed toy, she finally felt shame and regret. Although I had no intention of taking her back, it was still good to hear. By the way, the steaks were delicious.

 

I read your story, I think she was young and stupid. luckily this happen early in your marriage which gave you a chance to move on without lot of losses and I'm sorry your second marriage was a failure too.

[Raven3321]

I read your story, I think she was young and stupid. luckily this happen early in your marriage which gave you a chance to move on without lot of losses and I'm sorry your second marriage was a failure too.

 

Thanks again qubist. As for my second marriage, it's getting better. At the time I wrote what you read, we were in a horrible place and had been for some time. However, we've both admitted to making mistakes and we've both re-committed to making the marriage better. It's not where it should be but it's definitely not where it was.

[Horton]

When it comes to cruelty, each and everyone of these posts have the same exact thing in common - lack of empathy.

 

I can't think of a better explanation than that. How else could an adulterer come home to their family, kiss their spouse and read the kids a bedtime story all while knowing what they just did with their AP? Throwing around terms like 'fog' doesn't do it justice IMO, there's something seriously wrong with a persons mind to be able to behave in such a way.

[Whatnotagain]

A few years ago my WW and I had a free evening together without our son as my MIL said she would take him overnight so we could go out. She lives 50 miles away so we drove down to her place, dropped our son off and went to dinner. Later we went home and spent some time together and were up until almost 3AM. We slept in the next day and woke late in the morning a left to go pick up our son from MIL’s house. Both of us were hungry so we stopped at a popular fast food burger place by her house and picked up some food for everyone. While I was waiting in line my WW fainted behind me and fell face first to the ground. I turned around to see lying on her back with a contusion the size of a golf ball on her forehead and looking dazed. A man who saw what happened called 911 on his cellphone and the Paramedics were there in a matter of a few minutes. After they stabilized her I took her to a hospital that happened to be across the street and we spent the afternoon there while they ran different tests on her. By the next day the bump on her forehead was gone but it left her with a black eye and bruises on her forehead and face.

 

The following Tuesday she went into work and was confronted by a couple of her coworkers out of concern about what had happened to her and she told them of her ordeal. She did joke before she went to work that Tuesday that people were going to think I beat her up and I told her that I didn’t think that was very funny. A friend of ours at her work called her into his office and asked her if she was OK and said he wanted to make sure that I had not hit her. She assured him that she was fine and that everything happened as she said. She also posted on Facebook about what had happened and how we ended up spending the entire Saturday at the hospital.

 

Last year after D-Day I ran into the wife of the AP that she was involved with at the time of her accident. She told me that my WW told her husband (the AP) that I had assaulted her. She said at the time she was very surprised to hear my WW’s claim of assault and wondered why I would do it. I immediately knew what incident she was referring to. I confronted my WW about this and she denied ever making such a claim. She went back and asked her coworker what had prompted him to question her about the accident two years before and he admitted that the AP had come to him at work and told him that he did not believe my wife’s story and thought I had beat her up.

 

A few months ago I was going through some old files and backups on my laptop and I stumbled across an old backup of my wife’s smartphone. In the Pictures folder were a bunch of photos taken the Tuesday night following her accident the previous Saturday that was of her face and forehead. The pictures were primarily close-ups of her injuries with one showing her whole face; much like the photos a person would take of themselves to document an assault.

 

Even though my wife’s accident happened in public where there were many witnesses, there were medical reports and bills from the Paramedics and the Hospital, and my in-laws knew as well what had happened, my WW and her AP attempted to turn that incident into an assault on her by me.