cruelty during the affair.

[nightmare01]

WH told me I didn't text him the way MOW did.

 

I didn't have sex with him enough (we had sex 3 times a week)

 

He felt like we were just roommates

 

No one cares to hear me anymore

 

I need to just get over it

 

I abuse him (because I'm upset about A I have yelled at him on occasion)

 

...and nope my WH has not expressed much remorse. I honestly don't know if he is capable of it. His explanation for much of it is that he is human and humans make mistakes oh and I can't forget my favorite even with his 5% of remorse he says he will not let THIS A define him. yeah buddy lol

 

My WW does this. I think it has something to do with pride. Their pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong and what they did was hurtful and without justification.

 

So the minimize, deflect, and blame us for not getting over it already. Somehow they were abused too. WW has even said - she feels as much pain as I do - SMH.

 

They also want the affair forgotten (pride again) and to return to everything the way it was before.

 

Some are lost causes. The don't get it, and they never will.

 

ETA: Oh yeah. she said that I was expressing pain just to make her feel bad... and that it wasn't going to work. And that my pain was abuse to her.

[BlueDress]

Ex-husband.

 

He is her husband now. The thread asked about cruelty *during* the A - not how much better his second marriage is than his first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think, together with your own thread, it's becoming clear that he's trying to protect his family from too much craziness. Has the court ordered you to stay away from his family? How badly did you stalk and harass them for that to become necessary? Did you tell them that you were just waiting in the wings for his wife to die so you could get your claws back into him? Did you tell them that six years after your divorce you still regard him as your property? Did you tell them that when he tries to escape from you you chase him down the road, badgering him about having an affair with you - while his wife is (possibly) dying?

 

What's going on now or after doesn't make what happened easier on me.

[road]

Dutchman1

 

I was no prize.. It took me way to long to figure it out.

I don't want to hog this thread anymore than I already have

And I was thinking about starting a thread to discuss remorse but it would need to be in a different forum.

 

Road... Mr adams probably will not share with you specifics because he protects me... And I was vile.

The one thing I can hear myself saying over and over for years when he would trigger around the anniversary date of my affair was why are you still punishing me...

 

You see I was still carrying my own pain instead of his.. It was still about me...

When I finally saw the light.. I stopped thinking about my hurt and put on his.. And when I did that... It made all the difference

It changed me and he saw that and it gave him the ability to forgive me and know that I fully understood what I had done to him

 

 

You vile? Never could I believe that.

[road]

I guess I was lucky in the sense that her actions and words weren't really cruel. In many ways she became more attached (when I was physically home). When I travelled is were I saw a change in her actions.

 

The one thing she did that was really cruel (aside from the affair itself) was she would buy both me and OM the same gifts. That has been something I could and still can't wrap my mind around. The first MC told me in her opinion it was from guilt, that she simply couldn't bring herself to do anything for OM that she wouldn't do for me. My response was, what if the gift idea was for me? What does it say that she couldn't buy me something without also getting it for him? Question deflected.

 

 

Wow, just wow. That buying the BH and the OM the same gifts. First time I ever heard of a WW doing that.

 

 

What was the reason that your WW to you for her duplicate gifting?

 

 

How did you find out about this gifting arrangement and what then happened to those gifts that you received?

[BlueDress]

My husband gave her a huge gemstone ring for Christmas. He got me a candle.

[road]

Is this for real? Did you really just compare your pain as the other woman to the pain of a betrayed spouse? Really?

 

 

Yes it is for real. WS's have pain and grieve over losing their extracurricular activity relationship.

 

 

Their remorse causes them more pain.

 

 

Seeing the pain in their BS causes them more pain. It is a whole painorama for the WS and the BS.

 

 

I am not a WS. Though pain is painful and the cause of the pain does not matter, it still hurts.

[autumnnight]

Yes it is for real. WS's have pain and grieve over losing their extracurricular activity relationship.

 

 

Their remorse causes them more pain.

 

 

Seeing the pain in their BS causes them more pain. It is a whole painorama for the WS and the BS.

 

 

I am not a WS. Though pain is painful and the cause of the pain does not matter, it still hurts.

 

You must have read wrong. Gloria was an OW.

[road]

My WW does this. I think it has something to do with pride. Their pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong and what they did was hurtful and without justification.

 

So the minimize, deflect, and blame us for not getting over it already. Somehow they were abused too. WW has even said - she feels as much pain as I do - SMH.

 

They also want the affair forgotten (pride again) and to return to everything the way it was before.

 

Some are lost causes. The don't get it, and they never will.

 

ETA: Oh yeah. she said that I was expressing pain just to make her feel bad... and that it wasn't going to work. And that my pain was abuse to her.

 

 

Yes the WW trying to push the BH to recover quickly is because when the BH is still in pain it keeps the WW in pain as well.

 

 

The WW's logic is if I can get my BH to move past the affair quickly we then can recover faster. So they put on the front to minimize what was done to end their and their BH's pain.

[DKT3]

Wow, just wow. That buying the BH and the OM the same gifts. First time I ever heard of a WW doing that.

 

 

What was the reason that your WW to you for her duplicate gifting?

 

 

How did you find out about this gifting arrangement and what then happened to those gifts that you received?

 

I first got alerted when I saw a double charge for a bike that she got me (we are riders, about 50 60 miles a week). She told me it was a mistake and she had taken care of it. I blew it off. After d day (the day I put it together) I was going through records and that bike thing dawned on me and I searched looking for the credit back to our card, of course it wasn't there. I asked her and she said "oh they paid me back in cash" I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of a credit charge being repaid in cash. On the night before the court hearing we had a "tell all" kind of conversation and I asked her about the charge, she told me she had bought OM the same bike she got me said she did it a total of 4 times, the bike, watches, a tie and shoes.

 

Her reason? "I don't know" is what she told me. She did latch on to the MC suggesting it was guilt. My guess is she wanted one of us to be more like the other, which one? You would have to ask her, I have no idea.

[nightmare01]

Yes the WW trying to push the BH to recover quickly is because when the BH is still in pain it keeps the WW in pain as well.

 

 

The WW's logic is if I can get my BH to move past the affair quickly we then can recover faster. So they put on the front to minimize what was done to end their and their BH's pain.

 

Maybe so. My opinion is that minimizing the BS's experience just prolongs the whole recovery. It's like glossing over the problem - like trying to rebuild a destroyed house without repairing the foundation.... it will look good on the outside but sooner or later it will come down around you.

[Hardgrind]

The worst thing my WW (now XW) did happened when we were supposedly trying to reconcile. She got sick in the shower one morning. She then made a joke about it, asking me "wouldn't it be funny if she were pregnant?" (She never wanted to have kids with me). I was not amused. We had not been intimate since her affair started six months earlier. When I pointed out that the baby would be his, not mine, she got a dreamy look on her face. Then she asked me if she was pregnant whether I would want her to keep it? (She wasn't pregnant, but still, WTF!!!!! Who jokes about stuff like that under those circumstances????)

 

 

That was basically the turning point for me. I asked for a trial separation a couple months later, and told her I wanted a divorce after another month or so after that.

[TrustedthenBusted]

There were a lot of things that were F'd up. But most was the usual deceit and lies.

 

The one thing that was really cruel though, was for my birthday she surprised me with an all expense paid ski trip....by myself.

 

She'd stay home with the kids, and I was to go have a fun weekend of skiing, meeting my best buddy on the slopes. She had the whole thing planned out.

 

Turned out to be just an excuse to send me out of town.

 

Luckily, D-Day was 2 days before the trip. I cancelled, and we were out the money.

 

Happy Birthday.

[qubist]

There were a lot of things that were F'd up. But most was the usual deceit and lies.

 

The one thing that was really cruel though, was for my birthday she surprised me with an all expense paid ski trip....by myself.

 

She'd stay home with the kids, and I was to go have a fun weekend of skiing, meeting my best buddy on the slopes. She had the whole thing planned out.

 

Turned out to be just an excuse to send me out of town.

 

Luckily, D-Day was 2 days before the trip. I cancelled, and we were out the money.

 

Happy Birthday.

WOW this has to be up there with list of the worst, birthday "get away" literally get away

[m.snow]

WOW this has to be up there with list of the worst, birthday "get away" literally get away

 

you have to admire the wisdom in her strategy. she was very cold, calculating and methodical in her approach.

but the kind of person who thinks things through, before executing a plan. smart maybe?

Edited October 6, 2015 by m.snow

[ladydesigner]

Yes the WW trying to push the BH to recover quickly is because when the BH is still in pain it keeps the WW in pain as well.

 

 

The WW's logic is if I can get my BH to move past the affair quickly we then can recover faster. So they put on the front to minimize what was done to end their and their BH's pain.

 

Then my WH gets biggest idiot of the year ( or me for staying with him ) for taking his A underground for another 2 years after going through so much trauma the first year yeah he wishes it would all go away

[nightmare01]

you have to admire the wisdom in her strategy. she was very cold, calculating and methodical in her approach.

but the kind of person who thinks things through, before executing a plan. smart maybe?

 

This "wisdom" as you call it is not unique at all among WS's from what I've seen and heard. WS become very good at manipulation - which is easy because we trust them. So getting the pesky BS out of the way for an afternoon or weekend romp in the marital bed becomes a game for them.

 

It's evil.

 

And the funny (ish) thing is that after Dday the WS expect that we will trust them again and everything will return to normal.

[merrmeade]

Dutchman1

 

I was no prize.. It took me way to long to figure it out.

I don't want to hog this thread anymore than I already have

And I was thinking about starting a thread to discuss remorse but it would need to be in a different forum.

 

Road... Mr adams probably will not share with you specifics because he protects me... And I was vile.

The one thing I can hear myself saying over and over for years when he would trigger around the anniversary date of my affair was why are you still punishing me...

 

You see I was still carrying my own pain instead of his.. It was still about me...

When I finally saw the light.. I stopped thinking about my hurt and put on his.. And when I did that... It made all the difference

It changed me and he saw that and it gave him the ability to forgive me and know that I fully understood what I had done to him

This is what makes Ms. A different. She doesn't have an ounce of ego about any of it. She's immune to praise and stays focused on the truth.

[merrmeade]

You mean he "forgets"?

 

My WW does this ALL THE TIME.

Did you do this? - I don't remember

Did you go here? - I don't remember

You said this to me - I don't remember

 

Wouldn't it be lovely if we could just not remember? That the whole affair would just vanish from our minds as if it never happened.

 

Honestly though, I don't believe my WW when she says she doesn't remember. I think that when she says this, it's something she just doesn't want to tell me.

 

"I don't remember" is unassailable. By saying nothing, you can't find a lie. We can't get anything from a person that doesn't remember, because it's as if whatever it was never happened to them.

 

Another thing that continues to astonish me is the whole "I never think of OM or the affair unless you bring it up". How is that even possible? This huge thing she did that disrupted our lives to such a huge extent - and she never thinks about it? SMH I don't get it.

 

It's demeaning in a way. Here they did this horrible thing to us. Destroyed our trust and our sense of self, and they're like "meh - I never really think about it."

My WW does this. I think it has something to do with pride. Their pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong and what they did was hurtful and without justification.

 

So the minimize, deflect, and blame us for not getting over it already. Somehow they were abused too. WW has even said - she feels as much pain as I do - SMH.

 

They also want the affair forgotten (pride again) and to return to everything the way it was before.

...

ETA: Oh yeah. she said that I was expressing pain just to make her feel bad... and that it wasn't going to work. And that my pain was abuse to her.

I'm really grateful for this thread. Didn't know so many of us get the exact same sh-t. It's like they studied the same script.

 

But I agree, nightmare, "I don't remember" is so exasperating and, no, I don't believe it either.

 

But I'm really glad to know someone else gets the "I never think of OM or the affair unless you bring it up" line. I mean, wtf? Like this is some glowing example of reform? Or mental health maybe? And the gross disrespect and audacity to admit this and prove themselves, what, unaware? indifferent? that we are haunted by what they're bragging they're able to forget.

[ladydesigner]

But I'm really glad to know someone else gets the "I never think of OM or the affair unless you bring it up" line. I mean, wtf? Like this is some glowing example of reform? Or mental health maybe? And the gross disrespect and audacity to admit this and prove themselves, what, unaware? indifferent? that we are haunted by what they're bragging they're able to forget.

 

Right?! Mine uses this one too (god they are so not unique )

 

I even got that line before he took the A underground and he will even try to use it now. I always have to insist that he said that the first time around and I'm not falling for it anymore, he needs to get more creative.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Do I dare confess...I remember saying that too?

 

You know what it is?

 

Pain....self absorbed pain. I never think about the affair until you make me....and then when you make me...it hurts...so stop doing it.

 

this is what i mean when i say...as a wayward...we have to let go of our own pain to understand the pain of the betrayed.

 

How can you feel empathy for your betrayed if you are still absorbed in your own?

 

I believe this is a sign of am unremorseful wayward...WE must stop thinking about ourselves in order to fully understand the pain of the one we hurt.

[road]

There were a lot of things that were F'd up. But most was the usual deceit and lies.

 

The one thing that was really cruel though, was for my birthday she surprised me with an all expense paid ski trip....by myself.

 

She'd stay home with the kids, and I was to go have a fun weekend of skiing, meeting my best buddy on the slopes. She had the whole thing planned out.

 

Turned out to be just an excuse to send me out of town.

 

Luckily, D-Day was 2 days before the trip. I cancelled, and we were out the money.

 

Happy Birthday.

 

 

 

 

Wow. What money. Who cares about money lost. Something of value way above money was lost.

[lovinDKT3]

Wow, just wow. That buying the BH and the OM the same gifts. First time I ever heard of a WW doing that.

 

 

What was the reason that your WW to you for her duplicate gifting?

 

 

How did you find out about this gifting arrangement and what then happened to those gifts that you received?

 

 

DKT knows why I got the gifts, like usual here he is attempting to protect my image here.

 

First lets say I was screwed up.

 

The bikes were brought because it was a birthday present for DKT. While looking at it I thought "hey I should buy OM one so we can ride". I honestly didnt make a connection as to how disrespectful it all was. The other gifts were for OM and while buying them I thought DKT would like them. I do feel It was in part guilt, the other part I just didnt see it as a big deal. Alot of bad behaviors and decisions on my part.

[gettingstronger]

DKT knows why I got the gifts, like usual here he is attempting to protect my image here.

 

First lets say I was screwed up.

 

The bikes were brought because it was a birthday present for DKT. While looking at it I thought "hey I should buy OM one so we can ride". I honestly didnt make a connection as to how disrespectful it all was. The other gifts were for OM and while buying them I thought DKT would like them. I do feel It was in part guilt, the other part I just didnt see it as a big deal. Alot of bad behaviors and decisions on my part.

 

I can kind of see that- as my husband said it was an odd mix of guilt and not really getting what he was doing was terribly wrong-its hard for me to understand how those two things go together-like if you feel guilt you know its wrong-he has tried to understand it himself and tried to explain it better and it keeps coming back to-"its hard to explain stupid"- his words-

[merrmeade]

Just want to say how much I appreciate the two WSs posting here - LOVING truth, embracing it, not running from it, changing it or burying it.

 

But I have a question about that - about the BSs. Why do we keep coming back again and again? Why do we continue to analyze and continually uncover new aspects and attitudes they had that explains some new aspect of the WS's behavior and actions?

 

I knew this about myself already: I love the truth. And not just related to my husband's affairs. In all things. His affair and other circumstances have reinforced this in recent years but still it's my defining motive now.

 

But this thread has made me realize that my husband has become the opposite. He hates the truth. The truth makes him look ghastly. That feels awful and immobilizes him. So he seems to figure that once the truth is out there - the big truth - it's done and you leave it. It's unfair to keep bringing it up. And if I do, he sees it like nightmare said — "... that I was expressing pain just to make [him] feel bad... and that it wasn't going to work. And that my pain was abuse to [him]."

 

Yes, of course, I explain that it's different for me and for most BSs. We need to understand why. We need to get our histories and memories back and rework them - all of them - to what was really going on. And he responds that he understands the meaning of the words but not the feeling and begrudgingly answers my question.

 

Since this exchange is always the same and he doesn't see any reason to dig deeper, I don't ask him to dig with me.

 

So I ask myself why he and some other WSs are this way and others are like Ms. A. or lovinDKT. And what seems logical, first of all, is simply strength of character and sense of self. I think my H is too damaged, was too unsure of his innate self worth from childhood to find the courage to swim around in his worst life transgressions for very long. So that's one group.

 

Then, I figure there's another group that will do it for love of the BS, for true remorse.

 

Then, there's the MS. A/lovinDKT group. They do because they're not really like my H, not crippled with narcissism at their core and have the strength and wish to embrace truth.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade....

 

I think...if a betrayed spouse does not have the "right" answers...they are still haunted.

 

John knew i was sorry....he knew i was transparent...he knew i was giving him what i thought was necessary...YET...there was something he was NOT getting from me.....for thirty years...he kept searching and hoping to get the...."something".

 

He felt like I should be able to figure it out on my own...mostly because he could not verbalize what it was he wanted.

 

All infidelities are different....i poured my guts out to him...but there are so many who don't tell the truth who with hold information that the BS may need to help to understand how this ever happened.

 

I don't have all the answers....but i can tell you...i read the stories here...and i see that i did and said and reacted in the very same ways that are described .....and i think ok....their wayward is not getting it YET.

 

I have hope that they will.

 

John struggled mostly in silence......but he did what you all have done....he joined forums...he read books.....and articles. He searched for answers.

 

and i think the best thing he could have done was to FINALLY TELL ME what he was doing. He was afraid i would be mad....he was not sure how i would react.

 

At first...when he told me he was on a forum...I was pissed. Why in the world would you tell strangers about our life???? But then i started READING....in the beginning...I think i was in denial...i am not like THOSE people!!!! But as my heart began to melt with each story....and i saw the destruction of lives....and of SOULS...I had to face the truth and the reality...I AM JUST LIKE THOSE PEOPLE.

 

and then i read a couple of books he asked me to read....and the light bulb went off.....I FINALLY GOT IT

 

But...I had thirty years behind me....and many here are still closer to DDAY....and maybe the wayward...needs time to process...I dont know.

 

I know many folks...will never get what they need....i dont know if every Wayward is capable of giving to you what you need. I dont know if every wayward...is even open to trying. and i truly understand when a betrayed just has to "settle"...or just gives up and divorces. and I know there is no right or wrong answer...and you have to do for YOU what you need to do....without judgment from others.

 

I can never tell you...words cannot express...the empathy i feel in my heart for those who have been betrayed....I look at my husband and i think how in the world did i become this selfish monster and hurt this precious man...he is so good...so kind...and he loves me so much....but look what i did to him.

and even though I have done all that i know to do to make it better...it will NEVER go away. We don't dwell on it...it doesn't define us....but it is still there.

 

I love this quote from a friend of mine who is a wayward...

 

Betrayed and waywards really want the same thing...that it never happened in the first place

 

unfortunately that is what we want...and we can't have it