Bitterness in men

[Toodaloo]

I agree. There's nothing wrong with dating. But a person who knows who they are and what they want doesn't need an orbit of options. We decide very quickly how we feel about a person. This vacillation is indication that Tood doesn't know how she feels. I argue that the frustration is at least partly with herself.

 

SC you have to actually meet these people and spend time with them to know if they are what you are looking for or not.

 

My list isn't big dick, brunette and 6ft2.

 

My list contains the things that only time and getting to know a person reveals.

 

Its not a case of "orbit of options" its a case of getting to know as many as possible so I can find what I am searching for.

 

I am never going to be able to find these things out on a first date. It is rare that I will get any of these men past date 3 to actually start getting emotionally involved with them. So give me a break with the "she doesn't know what she wants" crap. I know exactly what I want and sadly you can't tell just by looking at someone.

[SycamoreCircle]

Sorry to offend. I'm finished.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Jeez what a disgusting attitude towards men. If I openly admitted I was multi dating women at the same time i'd be shot down in flames. The double standard is nauseating.

What double standard, here YOU are shooting her "down in flames" for multidating!!! Guys are all over this place bragging about all the girls they're banging maybe read some more threads!!

[Rejected Rosebud]

being bitter, resentful, is a thousand, million, billion times worse if you are a guy

How do you know??:confused: But I will say that if you are bitter and resentful you are basically just annoying to other people who will quickly have nothing to do with you, it is really a problem for YOU. (I don't mean YOU personally I mean whoever is bitter and resentful!!!) While the rest of the world is moving on from you because you are a huge downer, you are stuck ... with yourself. I mean the general YOU again of course!! :bunny:

[Rejected Rosebud]

No no if you read some of her other posts you'll see that she's definitely geared towards feminism (not equality humanitarians but the female first men second 'feminists')

But that is not "feminism" so why don't you use a different word instead of misusing that one please??

[elaine567]

Jeez what a disgusting attitude towards men. If I openly admitted I was multi dating women at the same time i'd be shot down in flames. The double standard is nauseating. It's no wonder there's so many players out there. If women are gonna act like this then players are gonna play.

 

I really need to take a leaf out of OP's/Gaeta's book spin 4-5 'plates' at the same time until I pick the best one. And not feel a single ounce of guilt about it.

 

Could this be a US/UK divide here? Hudson701 is in London if I remember rightly.

 

Multi-dating à la US, is I guess still not seen as the norm in the UK?

[elaine567]

But that is not "feminism" so why don't you use a different word instead of misusing that one please??

 

I have never been of the opinion women first, men second.

Feminism is about equality, and I wholeheartedly support equality, but I do find some men appear not to be happy about ceding their male privilege to allow for true equality.

[Timshel]

I agree. There's nothing wrong with dating. But a person who knows who they are and what they want doesn't need an orbit of options. We decide very quickly how we feel about a person. This vacillation is indication that Tood doesn't know how she feels. I argue that the frustration is at least partly with herself.

 

This is surprising coming from you Syc. The change, evolution of awareness. Individual and learned.....walked really.

 

There are instincts that are used to judge quickly, fight/flight. In the absence of danger, the judgements become perceptions and preference, really.

 

Seems like Toodaloo is withholding her judgement until she is sure. We can agree Toodaloo should be safe, always.

 

You're a smart woman and everyone at LS has your back, right Syc?

[SycamoreCircle]

She's gonna' be just fine.

[hudson701]

In London. If I mentioned it to a woman I was dating, by trying to be 'open and honest' I'd receive a slap/ get the 'I don't want to share' speech and never see her again. I know, because it has happened to me. However, what I have witnessed since living in this city is thst you can absolutely be open and honest about it if you are an extremely high value male and the woman perceives you to be out of her league. Again I've had direct experience with this as both my housemates are female; one is currently dating this guy who she gushes about all of the time and has openly admitted she is happy to share him about as he is dating/having sex with others. I guess that's the power of being truly alpha.

[elaine567]

In London. If I mentioned it to a woman I was dating, by trying to be 'open and honest' I'd receive a slap/ get the 'I don't want to share' speech and never see her again. I know, because it has happened to me. However, what I have witnessed since living in this city is thst you can absolutely be open and honest about it if you are an extremely high value male and the woman perceives you to be out of her league. Again I've had direct experience with this as both my housemates are female; one is currently dating this guy who she gushes about all of the time and has openly admitted she is happy to share him about as he is dating/having sex with others. I guess that's the power of being truly alpha.

 

Yes, but there is a big difference between multi-dating and "sharing".

[hudson701]

Yes, but there is a big difference between multi-dating and "sharing".

 

That's irrelevant in this particular case. She has openly admitted to not being bothered about sharing him- that means he can date or do whatever he likes with other girls. The point I'm making is that the vast majority of English girls will not do this with 'average' men, they will not tolerate this multi dating open policy. A man will always ALWAYS be labelled a player if he chooses to indulge in such behaviour. Of course, girls do it in the UK without remorse or being vilified for it. It's a massive double standard but girls are masters at multi dating here whilst projecting an image of purity and honesty.

[elaine567]

That's irrelevant in this particular case. She has openly admitted to not being bothered about sharing him- that means he can date or do whatever he likes with other girls. The point I'm making is that the vast majority of English girls will not do this with 'average' men, they will not tolerate this multi dating open policy. A man will always ALWAYS be labelled a player if he chooses to indulge in such behaviour. Of course, girls do it in the UK without remorse or being vilified for it. It's a massive double standard but girls are masters at multi dating here whilst projecting an image of purity and honesty.

 

I thought girls who sleep with multiple men at the same time have a range of pejorative terms thrown at them mostly by men, so "player" in comparison sounds rather tame.

[Toodaloo]

She's gonna' be just fine.

 

She is

 

I am from the UK. The attitude IS very different over here.

 

I am not prepared to "share" and do not expect any man to "share" me. However I am also realistic. I have my feet on the ground.

 

These "dates" I am talking about are merely to get to know people with a view to dating them romantically. If I get past 2/3 dates and onto date 3/4 then the rest are quietly dropped so I can concentrate on one person.

 

Normally this is not a problem as only one will show up at a time or none!

 

My problem in this instance is that 4 good prospects turned up at once. I don't want to turn them away simply because I "might" (lets take a guess at around 5% chance) get a second date with one that is already booked when another aproaches.

 

Volleyball man - been speaking to him for ages. Lovely guy but painfully shy. Didn't think he would ever get around to actually asking me out.

 

Trainman - got in there fast. We had a date, decided to be friends and thats that

 

Racing man - Already had date booked with Trainman but knew that may not work out so went for it as a chance to meet a great guy

 

Bitter man - Had date booked with Trainman that was happening after his proposed date. Seemed like a really great guy and I wanted to meet him. Guess its just as well I didn't cancel Trainman...

 

I know exactly what I am looking for. Only by spending time with these men am I going to find out if they are what I am looking for. There is no way I can tell just by words or looks alone. Only actions will show me who they really are. Imagine if I had ignored all the others because I was talking to the one who turned bitter after one date... I would have missed out on talking to them and getting to know them. I could also have offended them by turning them down. I may never have had the chance.

 

That is the only reason why I multiple date. Because I know that after that first one the chances are I am not going to see them again... I do not snog (peck on the lips doesn't count in my books as I do that with some friends...), sleep with etc until I am emotionally invested in one person. Just one.

 

So while the correct "term" to use is probably that I am "multi dating" reality is that all I am doing is meeting people and going out. How is that wrong?

[Toodaloo]

In London. If I mentioned it to a woman I was dating, by trying to be 'open and honest' I'd receive a slap/ get the 'I don't want to share' speech and never see her again. I know, because it has happened to me. However, what I have witnessed since living in this city is thst you can absolutely be open and honest about it if you are an extremely high value male and the woman perceives you to be out of her league. Again I've had direct experience with this as both my housemates are female; one is currently dating this guy who she gushes about all of the time and has openly admitted she is happy to share him about as he is dating/having sex with others. I guess that's the power of being truly alpha.

 

That is where being a grown up and saying that you have a date with someone planned, you feel it would be rude to cancel but you will sort it out one way or another comes into play.

 

Trainman. He had other dates booked. Thats fine! He had them booked before he even met me. After he met me he decided to concentrate on one girl. Shock horror after a week it was over... By then I had other dates lined up so when he asked again I told him and that was fine. He now has other dates booked up too. Its not a problem. He is a "player" as he does sleep with them... one at a time and he does seem to get them into bed very quickly. I don't...

 

Its called not getting overly emotionally invested too soon.

[guest569]

Heck, even if you went around screwing them, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm sorry if that is "soooo feminist" a thing to say. Where did you meet these nutters? I can imagine how they would go in relationships, you were right to ditch them. Tantrums, no thanks! One of my exes was a closet tantrum chucker, it all came out after the breakup and during our subsequent "friendship". Count yourself lucky these guys were open about being aholes.

[Toodaloo]

Heck, even if you went around screwing them, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm sorry if that is "soooo feminist" a thing to say. Where did you meet these nutters? I can imagine how they would go in relationships, you were right to ditch them. Tantrums, no thanks! One of my exes was a closet tantrum chucker, it all came out after the breakup and during our subsequent "friendship". Count yourself lucky these guys were open about being aholes.

 

My last ex was also a tantrum thrower. Complete with throwing food because he wanted pizza instead of salad, flinging himself on the floor, hurling little insults etc while no one was listening... 7 damned years wasted becoming a frightened mouse on the inside while pretending to be happy on the outside. 7 damned years of being broke, giving up my friends, family and hobbies...

 

Never. Ever. Again.

 

Before I met that guy he seemed perfectly reasonable and stoic, reliable and not at all like this... You just don't know until you get to know someone...

[SycamoreCircle]

My last ex was also a tantrum thrower. Complete with throwing food because he wanted pizza instead of salad, flinging himself on the floor, hurling little insults etc while no one was listening... 7 damned years wasted becoming a frightened mouse on the inside while pretending to be happy on the outside. 7 damned years of being broke, giving up my friends, family and hobbies...

 

Never. Ever. Again.

 

Before I met that guy he seemed perfectly reasonable and stoic, reliable and not at all like this... You just don't know until you get to know someone...

But...but but but...you can't put being broke, giving up your friends, family and hobbies on a boyfriend. Those are all things that a self-aware, self-sufficient person has control over. You must own up to that responsibility, Tood. Doing so will help you in your dating life now.

[Toodaloo]

But...but but but...you can't put being broke, giving up your friends, family and hobbies on a boyfriend. Those are all things that a self-aware, self-sufficient person has control over. You must own up to that responsibility, Tood. Doing so will help you in your dating life now.

 

Oh I do.

 

Which is why I will not allow such negative behaviors near me.

 

Which is why I surround myself with only the very best of people.

 

Which is why I am taking time to get to know who is the best to allow them to get closer than anyone else to me.

 

I should not have accepted that situation. Big mistake. I will not be making it again. So yes it is helping. Because I am not settling for nasty bitter men who use goading and nasty tactics just to get a blow job.

[elaine567]

But...but but but...you can't put being broke, giving up your friends, family and hobbies on a boyfriend. Those are all things that a self-aware, self-sufficient person has control over. You must own up to that responsibility, Tood. Doing so will help you in your dating life now.

 

I do not really think it is helpful to tell an abused person that she should own up to the responsibility for the havoc her ex-bf wreaked in her life.

It is very easy to sit in judgement and say no self-aware, self-sufficient person would allow those things to happen, but that usually comes from someone who has never really suffered at the hands of controlling monsters who lure their victim in with normality and loveliness, to later use and abuse them.

Monsters who turn perfectly normal balanced people into scared mice, afraid of their own shadow, scared mice that question their own sanity, scared mice that end up damaged physically and mentally.

Most abused people have had enough blame and shame in their lives, their abuser will have done a good job there and many blame themselves too, so to suggest that the ex-bf needs exonerated from all blame and for Tood to take the sole responsibility for all that happened to her in her abusive relationship, back onto her shoulders, is probably not really helpful.

It sounds good in theory, but in practice it is heaping "responsiblity" onto people who are often not really in a good enough place post- abuse to take that on fully.

It is in essence victim blaming.

 

So whilst I am all for self awareness and self sufficiency and moving forward with better boundaries, I am not in the camp that says abusers basically get a free pass, as the victim should have known better.

[Plywoof]

I thought girls who sleep with multiple men at the same time have a range of pejorative terms thrown at them mostly by men, so "player" in comparison sounds rather tame.

 

What I think the person is getting at is if women want the same sexual freedom as men. Playing the field, casual sex, etc they can't label those men they emulate dogs or pigs.

[giblesp]

throwing haymakers now.... sad... .smh

 

There will always be a difference between dating and being in a relationship. Dating is not exclusivity/commitment unless a talk has taken place and the two move into relationship territory; nor is it owing someone sex after spending 2 hours in their company. Conflating the two demonstrates that you don't know the difference and pointing that out has nothing to do with my life and how you know nothing about it, save what I think on one topic out of millions.

 

Don't assume that what is dating and a relationship for you, is dating and relationship for another.

[SycamoreCircle]

I do not really think it is helpful to tell an abused person that she should own up to the responsibility for the havoc her ex-bf wreaked in her life.

It is very easy to sit in judgement and say no self-aware, self-sufficient person would allow those things to happen, but that usually comes from someone who has never really suffered at the hands of controlling monsters who lure their victim in with normality and loveliness, to later use and abuse them.

Monsters who turn perfectly normal balanced people into scared mice, afraid of their own shadow, scared mice that question their own sanity, scared mice that end up damaged physically and mentally.

Most abused people have had enough blame and shame in their lives, their abuser will have done a good job there and many blame themselves too, so to suggest that the ex-bf needs exonerated from all blame and for Tood to take the sole responsibility for all that happened to her in her abusive relationship, back onto her shoulders, is probably not really helpful.

It sounds good in theory, but in practice it is heaping "responsiblity" onto people who are often not really in a good enough place post- abuse to take that on fully.

It is in essence victim blaming.

 

So whilst I am all for self awareness and self sufficiency and moving forward with better boundaries, I am not in the camp that says abusers basically get a free pass, as the victim should have known better.

Well, I am of the camp that says abusers get a free pass. Oh, Elaine---quit playing Devil's advocate!!!

[Toodaloo]

Well, I am of the camp that says abusers get a free pass. Oh, Elaine---quit playing Devil's advocate!!!

 

She has got a point though SC.

 

Throughout this post you have been critical of my behaviour when dating. Comments such as I don't know what I want, I am messing about with people etc... Its my fault that my ex was an a-hole because I let him.

 

The last point is a very good one. However why should I then regress and allow others to do EXACTLY the same?

 

All my behaviour is - is making sure that I am never again so stupid to get involved with another person who screw me up the way my ex did.

 

Yes I made a mistake. I take ownership of that. To follow the advice you have been giving me would be to make the same mistakes again.

 

That I allowed it to happen does not excuse the irresponsible and heartless behaviour of my ex. I did not force, coerce, ask nor prod him to behave in the way he did. That was HIS choice. I could be an absolute bitch to men if I wanted however it is MY choice not to be. He chose to behave that way out of laziness and selfishness. That is fact - just as much as my pathetic attempts to turn a toxic relationship into a good one.

 

The ironic thing is that I had already dealt with all those issues and become stronger before I joined these boards. I knew what it was. It was a separated man that I fell for that confused the heck out of me and brought me here for advice.

 

Elaine is astute and picked up on some of my "fly away" comments put two and two together and made 4. Its not playing "devils advocate". Its pointing out fact.

 

The only thing that both of you are hinting at and are incorrect about is that you see me as a "victim". I do not see myself that way. What has happened has allowed me to grow and develop as a human being. When I do speak about it face to face with people they often think that I am cold. Truth is I am. The whole episode leaves me with no feelings what so ever.

[mrldii]

...So while the correct "term" to use is probably that I am "multi dating" reality is that all I am doing is meeting people and going out. How is that wrong?

 

I'm in the U.S. and I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

I have always said that women - and men - should date multiple people at the same time. There's a danger in putting all of our eggs in one basket too soon...we create a vested interest in the *relationship's* outcome way too soon and end up working way too hard to make it work out.

 

I date as many men at one time that I'm interested in dating...and don't feel the least bit guilty about it; I prefer to date men who feel similarly. If a guy is the type to only date one woman at a time and he's comfortable with my position, I'll continue to see him until I, too, want to be exclusive with him. If he's NOT OK with me continuing to date and feels I, too, should be exclusive before I'm ready to be...well then, he's just proven he's not the guy for me.

 

And that IS the purpose of dating, no? To determine who is the best fit for both of us.