3 months later and where I am at.

[Noirek]

You may hold him in high regard but your own selfishness and me me me attitude, almost like entitlement screams through your posts. You may think your H is an amazing man, kind, and patient but you don't respect him, don't respect the idea of marriage and all that entails, being committed to only him.

 

I know you don't want to be the one to pull the plug but maybe you should. Your expectations and idea of what marriage is supposed to be is not the same as your husband. He does love you but is he really aware how much you've changed and who you are now vs who you were when you married him? Staying with him would be a lie and unfair to him..

 

I don't feel I deserve anything so I really still don't know how I am entitled. I just know that I broke N/C after a long, long time and when I really thought I had made myself a better person. How can I promise fidelity knowing that about myself? Why cut off MM knowing I will more than likely resume communicatinf with him again? All I would be doing is setting myself up for more failure. And breaking my husband's trust again.

 

I am me, me, me. Because it is me posting. I can pretty much guarantee all of us here are thinking about me, me, me when posting our problems. It is how it works.

[atreides]

In my previous post I wrote the whole story down in all its ugliness. There is no fog excuse label that can be applied to me. I was attracted MM but I always saw his physical faults. Nor would I ever want to be with MM. His character flaws far surpass my own. Should I find myself single I wll remain so because I am no good for decent guys but neither would I wish for a committed relationship with the type of men I deserve.

 

 

Forgive me as i started to read this thread and stopped at this post. So if i am so far off context as to the following pages, i apologize.

 

First, thanks for posting, it takes courage and self-reflection which is crucial.

 

Second, the "Fog" can precisely be applied to you. Fog is not about "noticing" anything or about knowing faults or having some form of "self-awareness." Infidelity is an addiction is the sense that we peruse for the perceived "need", "desire" and so on to an end which is solely brought on by our own and to serve ourselves and no others.

Moreover, i find that i need to explain myself further as some get "addictions" wrong. I am not speaking to you in that "addiction" is a disease because they are not. Nor would i even pretend to say you have a disease.

 

The fog is the description of your irrational behavior during the infidelity and post of discovery and the attempt to recover. Like most addicts, cold turkey is the most difficult but the most effective. We usually solve most addictions other than those that comprise a more complex chemical to detox, as in to say "no contact" is cold turkey in the case of infidelity that only uses are own very power chemicals. You yourself realize the contradiction as in "yet you are here" and have the struggle to fully detach from your OM, most definitely that is the Fog. In the end that is why you are asking for help here and advise.

[atreides]

I am not working on my marriage but merely living it. There is really nothing to work on that I can see. We have sex enough for both of us, resolve our arguements swiftly, we enjoy each others company and spend most of our free time as a family or even just the two of us. My life with him is everything I have ever wanted.

 

I really don't know how to explain it but it is like there are two of me. The one me is disgusted by my behaviour and the behaviour of other cheaters. I recently watched into the woods and felt such disgust with the Baker's wife and the prince. I hated what they were doing to the Baker and Cinderella. But the other me was completely turned on and wanted the kiss. I don't like the me that finds pleasure in infidelity. But I cannot lie and pretend that I am 100% repulsed by it. I find it sexy and disgusting and so very confusing to live with.

 

Cheating has an appeal to me that I really wish it didn't. Because I feel such pain over the anguish it causes and such disgust for those of us who partake of the forbidden fruit. How can I find pleasure in something that beings so much pain? That is why I know I am very broken or in fact evil. It is the only thing that explains it.

 

This is the addiction, and it is tough, it will take a huge amount of work. At least you are aware. Your situation exemplifies exactly what many cannot get their head around in that "infidelity/cheating has nothing to do with marriage problems"

 

You are in conflict with what feels good and is the rush vs what you know you should not do.

[atreides]

I don't tell him about every email communication but he knows we still communicate. And I know it is hard to understand but I would not rather be with MM. I don't want a future with him and I am slowly distancing myself from him. I don't know why you felt the need to slap me in the face with the quoted part. It doesn't make feel less guilty but worse. I only clarified it because my disappointment in myself comes from the fact the affair was dead and over for good. That is how I felt during the time in between. But I was wrong. I don't think it makes me a better person. I get it though, you hate me. I understand why. But thinking you know what is going on more than I do or adding to my story doesn't really help. Not me at least. Some people may respond to you abrasive words but I can honestly say I find your judgements the least helpful. But I will admit, they are helpful in a different way.

 

 

Well reading form your posts to this point, it seems like your Husband is "okay" with this. Honestly if he knows about the infidelity and that you are still communicating, what can anyone really say? He is in agreement with you. Is there something your are hiding or would your "good half" like to win out and bet the "addicted half?"

[merrmeade]

Forgive me as i started to read this thread and stopped at this post. So if i am so far off context as to the following pages, i apologize.

 

First, thanks for posting, it takes courage and self-reflection which is crucial.

 

Second, the "Fog" can precisely be applied to you. Fog is not about "noticing" anything or about knowing faults or having some form of "self-awareness." Infidelity is an addiction is the sense that we peruse for the perceived "need", "desire" and so on to an end which is solely brought on by our own and to serve ourselves and no others.

Moreover, i find that i need to explain myself further as some get "addictions" wrong. I am not speaking to you in that "addiction" is a disease because they are not. Nor would i even pretend to say you have a disease.

 

The fog is the description of your irrational behavior during the infidelity and post of discovery and the attempt to recover. Like most addicts, cold turkey is the most difficult but the most effective. We usually solve most addictions other than those that comprise a more complex chemical to detox, as in to say "no contact" is cold turkey in the case of infidelity that only uses are own very power chemicals. You yourself realize the contradiction as in "yet you are here" and have the struggle to fully detach from your OM, most definitely that is the Fog. In the end that is why you are asking for help here and advise.

I just wanted to say something on this thread BECAUSE I FIND IT SO BEWILDERING. I came back because you've been so incredibly perceptive and attentive to the details in my situation/thread. Similar to your approach to your own situation, you captured and analyzed all the details of the individual characters and their interactions in my soap opera life and made predictions that were uncannily accurate so far.

 

I'm glad that atreides says he knows what's going on because I could not understand at all how you post with such insight about yourself and others but cannot get yourself to budge from this impasse. Your honesty would be refreshing if it weren't so searing in its unflinching commitment to fully expose every minute detail, however unflattering. You lay out future probabilities with the same alacrity, as an observer standing outside, reporting on the person who's acted and will act in ways that you, the observer, condemn. The observer judges the actor, yet volition seems to rest with only the actor who lacks the observer's ethos and clarity. The actor you we only know of from the observer's assessments. The observer gives us all our information but doesn't make decisions or changes. It seems no one does! Apparently the real-world actor (the 'real' you, I think you feel) feels and reacts but never acts in response to the observer's reflections and judgments. I just don't understand this schism between, I guess, the id and the super-ego (as far as my psychology studies went). Is anyone else in there who gets things done and takes responsibility?

 

I'm serious, Noirek, and wish I could help you the same as you helped me. I'd like to know if you think atreides is right. I don't understand any of that.

[Noirek]

I missed all Atredies comments somehow. I am in my head far too much and overthink absolutely everything. And then sometimes i am completely irrational and act out so. I have completely lost faith in myself but somehow haven't in others.

 

I never did talk to my husband. The question is far too self serving and hurtful. Ironic? Yes, I know.

 

Desire to continue communication with MM is completely gone and is now done out of self disgust and in a habitual way. And random. While at work I occasionaly visit here on break but otherwise my thoughts are occupied with my "real" life and not the lure of forbidden lust. I know I need to cease contact all together. I know a lot of things but doing them is another thing all together.

 

I do want the good me to win over the evil me. Split personality much? Maybe I need to explore the idea of therapy again but I believe I am beyond a counsellor and more in the realm of a physciatrist. But they plug pills and I do not do so well with medication not to mention how limited our town is for help. And I work 12 hr shifts. My free time is family time.

[merrmeade]

Maybe I need to explore the idea of therapy again but I believe I am beyond a counsellor and more in the realm of a physciatrist. But they plug pills and I do not do so well with medication not to mention how limited our town is for help. And I work 12 hr shifts. My free time is family time.

I think you'd be very surprised about "counsellors." It's not like deciding between an orthopedist or chiropractor. Therapists are trained and good ones do their job very, very well of getting all the yous integrated again into one self-aware person able to act on good choices that you make. The thing is they're trained and knowledgeable about how we work as groups and individuals. Their knowledge, don't forget, is about all kinds of docThey use this background, first, to assess the client and the situation, then, to share with the client what certain things can mean. Insight happens. It just does with good therapists. What they're called never really quite fits - counsellor, therapist - because it's not just listening or certainly not just applying a therapeutic fix. It's you, fixing yourself with their references and information.

[atreides]

I missed all Atredies comments somehow. I am in my head far too much and overthink absolutely everything. And then sometimes i am completely irrational and act out so. I have completely lost faith in myself but somehow haven't in others.

 

I never did talk to my husband. The question is far too self serving and hurtful. Ironic? Yes, I know.

 

Desire to continue communication with MM is completely gone and is now done out of self disgust and in a habitual way. And random. While at work I occasionaly visit here on break but otherwise my thoughts are occupied with my "real" life and not the lure of forbidden lust. I know I need to cease contact all together. I know a lot of things but doing them is another thing all together.

 

I do want the good me to win over the evil me. Split personality much? Maybe I need to explore the idea of therapy again but I believe I am beyond a counsellor and more in the realm of a physciatrist. But they plug pills and I do not do so well with medication not to mention how limited our town is for help. And I work 12 hr shifts. My free time is family time.

 

 

Yes, i work in the psychiatry and agree, pills are not the answer. You nailed your need to communicate and realize an emotional detachment but only one kind of emotion vs why you continue in disgust which perhaps has more now to do with how you perceive yourself? You are still feeling a need somewhere no matter if it is a "disgusting habit."

[Hope Shimmers]

I just read this entire thread and the word that comes to mind is 'martyrdom'.

 

You repeat over and over that you are 'evil' and 'broken' and then, with a virtual sigh, you say you just don't know if it's fixable.

 

It strikes me that what you are doing is avoiding taking responsibility for your actions and denying that you actually have the power to change your own behavior. It is easier to throw your hands up in the air in defeat and claim to be an evil person and therefore you are not able to change anything about your situation.

 

If you are clinically depressed then I can understand this, because people who are in that state are often unable to see ways in which they can get out of bad situations or help themselves. They just see everything as hopeless and permanent. If that is the case, you need to be on medication.

 

But if not, then you are just as capable as the rest of us to change behavior that even you admit is less than desirable. If you lose your husband over this, it will be on you; it will not be because you are 'evil' and 'broken' and just couldn't help yourself. That is an excuse that you are using to justify doing nothing different.

 

Just my observations.

[DKT3]

I just read this entire thread and the word that comes to mind is 'martyrdom'.

 

You repeat over and over that you are 'evil' and 'broken' and then, with a virtual sigh, you say you just don't know if it's fixable.

 

It strikes me that what you are doing is avoiding taking responsibility for your actions and denying that you actually have the power to change your own behavior. It is easier to throw your hands up in the air in defeat and claim to be an evil person and therefore you are not able to change anything about your situation.

 

If you are clinically depressed then I can understand this, because people who are in that state are often unable to see ways in which they can get out of bad situations or help themselves. They just see everything as hopeless and permanent. If that is the case, you need to be on medication.

 

But if not, then you are just as capable as the rest of us to change behavior that even you admit is less than desirable. If you lose your husband over this, it will be on you; it will not be because you are 'evil' and 'broken' and just couldn't help yourself. That is an excuse that you are using to justify doing nothing different.

 

Just my observations.

I agree 1000%. She does this because she is happy with herself and enjoy it. All the pity party stuff is so disingenuous. I believe she knows her husband won't do anything so she steps on him.

[merrmeade]

I missed all Atredies comments somehow. I am in my head far too much and overthink absolutely everything. And then sometimes i am completely irrational and act out so.

...

While at work I occasionaly visit here on break but otherwise my thoughts are occupied with my "real" life and not the lure of forbidden lust. I know I need to cease contact all together. I know a lot of things but doing them is another thing all together.

I just read this entire thread and the word that comes to mind is 'martyrdom'.

 

I don't know about martyrdom, HS. That doesn't fit with the off-handedness of N's remarks above. And THOSE remarks do not jibe with the incisive insights she provided in my recent thread.

 

I think, N, that you'd get a great deal out of therapy with someone you respect.

 

I think you do take yourself more seriously than you let on.

 

I think maybe you're really smart and really bored.

 

Hell, maybe you just have impulse and attention issues.

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't know about martyrdom, HS. That doesn't fit with the off-handedness of N's remarks above. And THOSE remarks do not jibe with the incisive insights she provided in my recent thread.

 

I haven't read the OP's comments in your thread, but I was referring to 'martyr syndrome' or 'martyr complex. The definition: "Martyr syndrome is a term that describes people who use self-sacrifice and suffering to control or manipulate their environment. It frequently includes being stuck in a victim mentality with resulting feelings of helplessness."

 

Maybe with a bit of narcissism thrown in for good measure.

 

But I agree that therapy is needed. Hope you prioritize that, OP.

[merrmeade]

I haven't read the OP's comments in your thread, but I was referring to 'martyr syndrome' or 'martyr complex. The definition: "Martyr syndrome is a term that describes people who use self-sacrifice and suffering to control or manipulate their environment. It frequently includes being stuck in a victim mentality with resulting feelings of helplessness."

 

Maybe with a bit of narcissism thrown in for good measure.

 

But I agree that therapy is needed. Hope you prioritize that, OP.

omg, YES, I lived with this. The narcissist-martyr leaps at opportunity to save others and be the hero—the bigger the sacrifice, the bigger the praise. No sacrifice is too great. He becomes a martyr - again and again. But the narcissistic martyr expects the recognition, humbly accepting appreciation and admiration for saving everyone. That's the narcissistic part.

 

Is there another version?

 

Not sure that's what's going on here though...

[DKT3]

Its not complicated at all and what Hope said is 100% on the money. She views her husband as weak, she knows that he will allow what she is doing and she feel in full control of the marriage as shown here

 

We are still in contact and husband knows. He just hasn’t decided yet what actions he is going to take. He had me promise him that I would not throw in the towel on our marriage so divorce and/or separation is up to him. He is hurt by my actions and disappointed in me.

 

The woe is me stuff is how she justifies doing what she is doing, which is cold almost heartless.

 

At some point her husband will snap and decide enough of this abuse.

[Noirek]

The irony is if I claimed I was a good person I would be quickly reminded that my actions define me and how evil/bad I truly was. I've never rescued anyone so I doubt that part fits me. I'm not much of a hero. I may be NPD but unfortunatly if I am my psychiatrist missed that. My writing may seem cold and without emotion but I can promise you I have plenty of emotions. I suppose one could think that they know how I view my husband. Arguing they are wrong is futile because they probably are one of those people who believes what they believe regardless of being disagreed with.

 

I am not bored. I know that. I won't use the word evil again but I already explained the two parts of me that conflict. Really, i have nothing new to add. At this point I am very new to my job and with family life and work I simply cannot add in therapy. I work 50 hour weeks and share the cooking with my husband (though I do more than him by my choice). I make the appointments for the kids and organize that stuff. When I get the routine better I will revisit therapy. In the meantime I guess this is it. If you are tired of me please feel free to block me if it spares you disgust.

[merrmeade]

Its not complicated at all and what Hope said is 100% on the money. She views her husband as weak, she knows that he will allow what she is doing and she feel in full control of the marriage as shown here

 

The woe is me stuff is how she justifies doing what she is doing, which is cold almost heartless.

 

At some point her husband will snap and decide enough of this abuse.

Look at this, written to me in another thread:

I'm glad you had that support. I think it is probably because of his personality that your brother wasn't one to be "you should forgive" and then make your lack of forgiveness the problem.

She was invested enough to follow my thread and express her interest (compassion). Her close reading of my description of my brother, ability to apply and analyze the new situation based on her synthesis of salient points shows critical thinking, knowledge and interest in human dynamics and relationships.

 

Frankly, I think everyone is right and and no one is, yet still believe urgently that Noirek should find a counsellor/therapist worthy of her intellect and skills, someone who sees through the sophisticated bullsh-t and calls it but who also sees the vulnerability and calls for help. I think Noirek's reports of her behavior are exercises in excrutiating objectivity. Notice she rarely rationalizes, white washes or denies any of it. She's definitely NOT in affair fog. She's actually doing what BSs rail hysterically against in their spouses. She plays no mind games, knows and says exactly what she's doing and hates herself for it. This is simply not your typical WS.

 

I.M.H.O.

[Noirek]

Look at this, written to me in another thread: She was invested enough to follow my thread and express her interest (compassion). Her close reading of my description of my brother, ability to apply and analyze the new situation based on her synthesis of salient points shows critical thinking, knowledge and interest in human dynamics and relationships.

 

Frankly, I think everyone is right and and no one is, yet still believe urgently that Noirek should find a counsellor/therapist worthy of her intellect and skills, someone who sees through the sophisticated bullsh-t and calls it but who also sees the vulnerability and calls for help. I think Noirek's reports of her behavior are exercises in excrutiating objectivity. Notice she rarely rationalizes, white washes or denies any of it. She's definitely NOT in affair fog. She's actually doing what BSs rail hysterically against in their spouses. She plays no mind games, knows and says exactly what she's doing and hates herself for it. This is simply not your typical WS.

 

I.M.H.O.

 

Thank you for this. It made me cry. However, i am just off a night shift and must go to sleep.

[SoulStorm]

Thank you for this. It made me cry. However, i am just off a night shift and must go to sleep.

 

Which shows you have empathy. True Evil people do not have empathy. They are extremely narcissistic and blame their wrongdoings on the victim

[merrmeade]

Thank you for this. It made me cry. However, i am just off a night shift and must go to sleep.

I felt I owed you as much. I was truly grateful for your attention and clarity in nailing certain interactions in my situation. You didn't have to do it.

 

My wish for you is to get some help. You're killing yourself and I think the understanding you would get from psychology would surprise you. What WSs normally do — all the defense mechanisms — they do BECAUSE they simply can't handle the torture of acknowledging the truth of their actions.

 

Check it out: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201110/the-essential-guide-defense-mechanisms

 

But you, Noirek, are so weird! You don't rationalize/deny/intellectualize/etc, etc. Instead of defense mechanisms, you allow the pain. Maybe you secretly feel that's a kind of payment or absolution? Seems like you do whatever you feel is wrong, then call it and yourself evil and come to LS for help, I suppose. Well, what I've been trying to say is that I think this is out of our league. Mine anyway. But it's funny, that you and Mrs. Adams are the only WSs who ever touched me. Precisely because of your honesty. Only she got some good help for it. That itself seems to me a great place to start. A good therapist knows what to do with that kind of ruthless honesty and will get you straight to feelings and choices. I mean I'm guessing - and that's the point. We're talking about who you are, the very core of your being because you don't seem to protect those inner workings very well. I'm hands off at this level and say find a qualified professional. It's money that saves lives, yours as well as your family's. I won't give up on you.

[sammy7111]

So if your husband cheated does he get to keep contact with the other woman

[Noirek]

So if your husband cheated does he get to keep contact with the other woman

 

My husband is a grown adult and gets to make his own decisions. He "gets" to do whatever he wants. It is called free will. Are you here because you want a new person to kick? Just saw your personal attack towards me on the other post. It is quite typical for people to deflect their own poor actions or attitudes (in this case the unecessary attack posts on the other thread) by taking personal shots at the person you disagree with it. Well I don't mind it. I deserve it actually and there is nothing you can say to me that I haven't said to myself. However I will not be shamed in to silence when speaking my opinion so if that was your intent you will be greatly disappointed

Edited April 3, 2015 by Noirek

[Akheron]

My husband is a grown adult and gets to make his own decisions. He "gets" to do whatever he wants. It is called free will. Are you here because you want a new person to kick? Just saw your personal attack towards me on the other post. It is quite typical for people to deflect their own poor actions or attitudes (in this case the unecessary attack posts on the other thread) by taking personal shots at the person you disagree with it. Well I don't mind it. I deserve it actually and there is nothing you can say to me that I haven't said to myself. However I will not be shamed in to silence when speaking my opinion so if that was your intent you will be greatly disappointed

 

But you didn't answer his honest question. If your husband cheats, does he get to continue contacting her?

[Noirek]

But you didn't answer his honest question. If your husband cheats, does he get to continue contacting her?

 

I did, i said he gets to do whatever he wants. If that is continue contact then I guess he gets that. As long as we have a good marriage and are getting along well I really don't care who he talks to. As long as he is treating me well and not being abusive, verbally or physically, I'm okay with him talking to anyone.

 

However if he was having an exit affair And bad mouthing me or future faking I would prefer the marriage be done.

[DKT3]

I did, i said he gets to do whatever he wants. If that is continue contact then I guess he gets that. As long as we have a good marriage and are getting along well I really don't care who he talks to. As long as he is treating me well and not being abusive, verbally or physically, I'm okay with him talking to anyone.

 

However if he was having an exit affair And bad mouthing me or future faking I would prefer the marriage be done.

 

Sounds all so great, until....

[Noirek]

Sounds all so great, until....

 

It actually happens? Maybe. I am not sure though. I am hardly in a place to be upset at him for hypothetically doing what I am doing. I might be wrong about my reaction but I don't think so. Not that it fully matters because as far as I know there is no OW.