The problem with "nice guys" - Comments please

[tokyo]

Can any of those guys formerly known as good guys who complain that nice guys finish last raise his hands and convince me that he´s in a happy relationship? I believe that you mostly get dates with women who run after you, but that´s just a superficial game. Those women don´t know what they want and think that just because you don´t want them you must be great and therefore they want you. The reason why they run after you is, because they have issues with their self-esteem.

 

I´m sure, none of the guys who believes in this "nice guys finish last" myth is in a happy relationship. They either have decided to continue to be nice and continue to be insecure and become clingy or they are bad guys now, surrounded by women with self-esteem problems, is the latter really an improvement?

 

I´ve seen nice guys who were really nice and generous, but no doormats. They´re good-natured, but not spineless.

 

I know other nice guys who complain about women who want to date jerks. One of my friend had or still has a crush on me and he used to get worked up about women who prefered jerks. What he really wanted to say was:"I´m a perfectly nice guy with a good professional prospective. Why are women not running after me? Why are *you* not running after me? Why are you running after your ex, even though he´s a jerk? You must be dumb." There are a couple of reasons why I don´t want to date him. There´s absolutely no chemistry between us. He´s too dominant and he´s suffocating me. There are so many reasons why I don´t want to date him, but he probably thinks it´s because he´s a nice guy and women prefer the bad ones.

 

I also think that many nice guys have bad social skills and just don´t know how to approach a woman. I know approaching someone of the other gender can be quite tough, but nevertheless sometimes they´re so creepy that you don´t want to have anything to do with them, I´m really sorry to say that, but it´s true. They are overly nice in order to compensate for their lack of knowledge. They give too much, because they´re afraid to give too little. They run after someone, because they don´t see that this person doesn´t feel attracted to them. After investing a lot of time and emotion they get dumped. By now they are more convinced than ever that nice guys finish last. That´s wrong. They finished last, because they were doormats, not because they were nice guys.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by alphamale

Dear C.O.C:

So where exactly are these women w/ good heads and lots of self confidence? I think they are all at home watching Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives along with some of those cheesy reality shows.

 

No woman, no matter how smart or pretty can resist the hollywood stereotype.

 

I work with women who have MBAs and are pretty good looking and even they are all wrapped up in the hollywood "stereotypes".

 

Come on, look around you man.

 

As a man, I also get caught up in that stuff to. Like the girl that falls for a guy who has never really expressed his feelings to anyone. Or the the guy that waits for the girl he lost to come back to him because he knows she'll come around. It's very easy to accidentally go from suspension of reality to "hey, this could happen to me!". Movies, like music, inspire, and I think a lot of folks rely on the media/Hollywood too heavily for fanticism that's probably not realistic.

[tokyo]

Originally posted by johan

It's this kind of comment I find annoying. You're very condescending here. You'll some day run into a woman you really love, and she'll teach you that playing little manipulative games is just a waste of her time.

 

The best strategy by far is to treat a woman good and with respect all the time like you would anyone else you care for. The key distinction you have to make is how you treat yourself. By "acting" like a bad boy, you're just betraying yourself. By tolerating disrespect, you're just betraying yourself. By staying with her when she's clearly not meeting your needs, you're betraying yourself. If you do not even know what your needs are, you are immature. If you're incapable of standing up for yourself when you do know what your needs are, you are a doormat. If you do stand up for yourself, that doesn't put you in the "bad guy" category. It makes you strong and sure and desirable by a mature woman worth having.

 

If you think masking any of those self-betrayals simply by acting like a jerk is going to fool any woman, you will just have to learn. You should check back into this thread after you've dated a woman or two. You've obviously only been with girls.

 

Hey, that´s what I think, too.

[johan]

"bad boy" - acts like a jerk 10% of time and acts good 90%

"nice guy" - acts good 100% of time

 

The word you used in both cases is "act". Just be yourself and know what you want/need. Any woman who wants the Hollywood stereotype ain't for me. I have to spend a lot of time with her after all, maybe decades. If she doesn't like the real me, I'd rather know up front. No act.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by alphamale

Dear C.O.C:

So where exactly are these women w/ good heads and lots of self confidence? I think they are all at home watching Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives along with some of those cheesy reality shows.

 

Somehow I get this picture of you walking around in a Sabertooth Tiger skin suit weilding around a club with spikes....

 

No woman, no matter how smart or pretty can resist the hollywood stereotype.

 

That's a really bad generalization with no factual evidence to back it up.

 

I work with women who have MBAs and are pretty good looking and even they are all wrapped up in the hollywood "stereotypes".

 

I haven't met a single one that does. I'm a recruiter and meet beautiful, intellilgent women every day whom are highly educated. They are far, far from what you describe. In fact, I know a gorgeous woman with a double MBA. She is dating a guy about 1" shorter than she is. He's about average but very smart. A smart woman looks for an intelligent, good guy. They can see past the "bad boy" attitude.

 

That's why they wouldn't be caught dead with guys like you and why you are surrounded with these supposive women who fall for "Hollywood" types. You hang around those kind of women and you attract ones think and act like you.

 

Come on, look around you man.

 

I think it's you who are in need of glasses....

[GreenCap]

I am a nice guy, consistent, no games, and unfortunately not that exciting as well. I have my bad qualities as well but nothing major like drugs, alcohol, cheater, beater, abuser - just mundane things like I don't make the bed and let dishes accumulate before doing them. But saying nice guys stay in touch with ex's as friends, is not realistic. What if the nice guy was hurt by the ex-gf and the hurt was so deep that the nice guy could never get over the betrayal.

 

It doesn't mean that the nice guy stops caring nor want to be friends. I care for her so deeply that I pulled myself away from her life now that she found someone she wants to marry, three months after we broke up (i was going to proposed Xmas). How can I be friends with this person who took our three year romance/relationship, cast it aside and then marry this new fella. I do not whether they have known each other for 3 months or longer but it can't be longer than our years living together- having both quality and quantity time. Can you imagine the betrayal - I don't even know which is worse, being cuckold or marrying someone she knew in such a short time. Not only that, she met this guy in her home country and will move back just to be with him and give up her career here. I never ask her to sacrifice for me, NEVER, and she would do this because (in her words) "it is worth it."

 

Yes, my ego is hurt as well as my heart. I gave her unconditional love and she turned around and spat it back into my face. How does a nice guy overcome this pain to be able to look at the ex again. Then again, she is going off to another country - that makes it easier or does it?

[alphamale]

sometime bad boys are not born they are created.

 

I have seen men that were burned, used and humiliated by women in their past when they were "nice guys". They were walked on and taken advantage of and some of them refuse to take it any more.

 

So the smart ones figured this out and started to modify their behaviour patterns and all of a sudden they were in the drivers seat with women.

 

They figure, if you can't beat 'em then join 'em.

 

See...bad girls can create bad boys also.

[unreal]

Originally posted by alphamale

Dear C.O.C:

So where exactly are these women w/ good heads and lots of self confidence? I think they are all at home watching Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives along with some of those cheesy reality shows.

 

No woman, no matter how smart or pretty can resist the hollywood stereotype.

 

I work with women who have MBAs and are pretty good looking and even they are all wrapped up in the hollywood "stereotypes".

 

Come on, look around you man.

 

 

Television and now the world wide web completely influences society as we know it today. Movies such as Dirty Dancing have long been favorites of women because of the rebel mystique. But don't get me wrong, it isn't just women guilty of this either. Men can be guilty of going for the danger or excitement as well. It is the same reason a teenage boy decides to try smoking or skipping school. Or sometimes whenever someone decides to cheat on their spouse or bf/gf. It is the thrill of danger or adrenaline rush. People like to test the limits of society in some shape or form everyday. Most women decide to pursue badboys for their thrill. It is all about playing the game.

[iceisles]

I consider myself to be the same kind of person, GreenCap, and I am finding myself wanting to remain friends with my ex, though I don't know why. I don't want her back, and things likely wouldn't work out even if we got back together. She's now with a bad boy, and could part of me be waiting around for that to fall apart? I would say, though, that I have typically tried to remain friends with exes, though that usually doesn't work.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by kooky

Can any of those guys formerly known as good guys who complain that nice guys finish last raise his hands and convince me that he´s in a happy relationship? I believe that you mostly get dates with women who run after you, but that´s just a superficial game. Those women don´t know what they want and think that just because you don´t want them you must be great and therefore they want you. The reason why they run after you is, because they have issues with their self-esteem.

 

Exactly! Women with low self esteem will automatically gravitate towards men that will keep them where they feel they belong, in the gutter! If you don't think much of yourself, you will attract men who AGREE with you. You have to love yourself before you can really love someone else.

 

I´m sure, none of the guys who believes in this "nice guys finish last" myth is in a happy relationship. They either have decided to continue to be nice and continue to be insecure and become clingy or they are bad guys now, surrounded by women with self-esteem problems, is the latter really an improvement?

 

I've been in a several happy relationships. I would have married a girl had her parents not objected to me being white. I've always thought "nice guys finish last", but not GOOD guys. Nice guys are doormats, I agree. Good guys are not.

 

I´ve seen nice guys who were really nice and generous, but no doormats. They´re good-natured, but not spineless.

 

Right. Good guys! Not just "niiice" guys. I wouldn't date a doormat either.

 

I know other nice guys who complain about women who want to date jerks. One of my friend had or still has a crush on me and he used to get worked up about women who prefered jerks. What he really wanted to say was:"I´m a perfectly nice guy with a good professional prospective. Why are women not running after me? Why are *you* not running after me? Why are you running after your ex, even though he´s a jerk? You must be dumb." There are a couple of reasons why I don´t want to date him. There´s absolutely no chemistry between us. He´s too dominant and he´s suffocating me. There are so many reasons why I don´t want to date him, but he probably thinks it´s because he´s a nice guy and women prefer the bad ones.

 

Could be true. It's our first line of defense to think something is wrong with YOU instead of ME.

 

I also think that many nice guys have bad social skills and just don´t know how to approach a woman. I know approaching someone of the other gender can be quite tough, but nevertheless sometimes they´re so creepy that you don´t want to have anything to do with them, I´m really sorry to say that, but it´s true. They are overly nice in order to compensate for their lack of knowledge. They give too much, because they´re afraid to give too little. They run after someone, because they don´t see that this person doesn´t feel attracted to them. After investing a lot of time and emotion they get dumped. By now they are more convinced than ever that nice guys finish last. That´s wrong. They finished last, because they were doormats, not because they were nice guys.

 

I just spark up a conversation and see where it goes from there. I am not afraid to approach any woman because I have a lot of self confidence. I don't get star struck when I meet famous people (and I've met a few, most recently Jay Leno) and I don't do it with women.

 

Men who do need to seek counceling on how to be self confident without being an arrogant arse...

[tokyo]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

I just spark up a conversation and see where it goes from there. I am not afraid to approach any woman because I have a lot of self confidence. I don't get star struck when I meet famous people (and I've met a few, most recently Jay Leno) and I don't do it with women.

 

I was more thinking of guys who start talking to you, but instead of having a nice chat it feels like they are trying to interrogate you like the KGB. There was a guy I worked with, a very intellectual guy, nice, what did he do? He started touching my butt, making insinuations, I hate this!!!!! I think an open dirty remark is better than some strange hidden insinuation, it looks so damn creepy!! They don´t know how to flirt or be charming, they try to be, but they annoy people. I understand that they have a problem. I also understand that it must very hard to be a man and shy, because it´s still men who do the first step, but I find they violate my private sphere and this makes me really aggressive.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by kooky

I was more thinking of guys who start talking to you, but instead of having a nice chat it feels like they are trying to interrogate you like the KGB. There was a guy I worked with, a very intellectual guy, nice, what did he do? He started touching my butt, making insinuations, I hate this!!!!! I think an open dirty remark is better than some strange hidden insinuation, it looks so damn creepy!! They don´t know how to flirt or be charming, they try to be, but they annoy people. I understand that they have a problem. I also understand that it must very hard to be a man and shy, because it´s still men who do the first step, but I find they violate my private sphere and this makes me really aggressive.

 

I agree. It's one thing to be confident but another all togethr to start grabbing arse like that. Some men will never get it.....

 

Talked to the (ex) G/F today but only briefly. I kept it to the subject and didn't make any small talk. Whole conversation lasted about 45 seconds. She broke NC last Friday and we haven't talked since but someone is coming by to pick something up and I had to notify her.

[moimeme]

No shyt it is complex but does that mean we should not talk about it?

 

No, it means that you don't solve people's problems by tossing around aphorisms like 'nice guys finish last' and pretending they are any sort of good advice.

 

I'm ok with POVS but automatically assuming someone is a loser because of one particular view is a very broad generalization without any real merit behind it. Not all men who think that way are losers and not all nice guys are doormats and not all doormats are nice guys. Etc, etc, etc....

 

Precisely!

 

No woman, no matter how smart or pretty can resist the hollywood stereotype.

 

Well, just on this board, almost every woman has disagreed with you. So right there your theory fails.

 

I work with women who have MBAs and are pretty good looking and even they are all wrapped up in the hollywood "stereotypes".

 

Translation: they're not interested in you. I wouldn't be either because of your philosophy of life and relationships.

 

There are a couple of reasons why I don´t want to date him. There´s absolutely no chemistry between us. He´s too dominant

 

And 'dominant' does not equate with 'nice'. That's just it - they think they're nice but they're often not nice at all but blind to their own major flaws.

 

Movies, like music, inspire, and I think a lot of folks rely on the media/Hollywood too heavily for fanticism that's probably not realistic.

 

Fantasies - exactly. A woman who goes after the 'bad boy' thinking he'll turn out to be Russel Crowe all mushy and lovey will soon find out that Hollywood is about fiction and those movies aren't documentaries.

 

Somehow I get this picture of you walking around in a Sabertooth Tiger skin suit weilding around a club with spikes....

 

ROTFLMAO!!

[johan]

I've seen women get sick of the bad guys, too. I think it becomes clear over time either 1) that the guy isn't really such a thrill after all, or 2) he's unstable and the drama gets old. Getting jerked around or being constantly wondering and worried gets boring, too. When she starts rolling her eyes and shrugging, the relationship really can't be saved, because you either are really the jerk she's sick of, or you have been acting like it. If it's been an act, then all respect goes out the window when you start bawling at her feet. I've known plenty of jerks who got dumped or who couldn't stick it out long enough to have that happen. EVERY guy gets rejected and dumped at some point.

 

Over time, the relationship has to be based on some core compatibilities that have nothing to do with how good or bad the guy appears to be on the surface. By that point you need to have dropped the act and exposed your true self.

 

The thing you have to realize is that guys are pretty much all the same at heart. Some more scarred or cynical or messed up than others, but the nice guys and the bad guys are basically all the same, after you strip away all the insecurities and macho posing.

[XNemesisX]

I guess it just all depends on your definition of a bad guy or nice guy.

 

In my former post I listed a definition for a nice guy and I based it on guys who are self-proclaimed "nice guys" I realize there is such a gray area between the two extremes. Maybe the self-proclaimed "nice guys" should be in a category all their own.

 

It gets really old sometimes hearing self-proclaimed "nice guys" use the excuse of being "too nice" as to why they don't get girls.

 

Truth is, there are probably other reasons why they don't get girls. It probably has nothing to do with their perception of being "too nice" Its just a nice, convenient way for them to make their selves feel better and not attribute their rejection to some other factor that might potentially hurt their feelings.

 

This is just how I think about it, and what I have experienced with these types of guys.

 

They usually go for girls who are WAY out of their league, and then when they get rejected they just blame it on being too nice when really she "just wasn't that into him"

 

They DO act desperate, come across too strong, pushy, etc.

 

I know other nice guys who complain about women who want to date jerks. One of my friend had or still has a crush on me and he used to get worked up about women who prefered jerks. What he really wanted to say was:"I´m a perfectly nice guy with a good professional prospective. Why are women not running after me? Why are *you* not running after me? Why are you running after your ex, even though he´s a jerk? You must be dumb." There are a couple of reasons why I don´t want to date him. There´s absolutely no chemistry between us. He´s too dominant and he´s suffocating me. There are so many reasons why I don´t want to date him, but he probably thinks it´s because he´s a nice guy and women prefer the bad ones.

 

This is a perfect example...Kooky hit the nail right on the head! Even at the present moment I have this guy, who constantly complains about girls not liking the nice guys, you know all of that talk. Then talks about what a great catch he is, brags a lot about himself, and even refers to me when talking about why girls like jerks and not nice guys like himself. I think a lot of these guys just don't want to face that maybe, just maybe, there is something about them that is socially inept, or for whatever reason just not appealing to the girls they go after.

 

Truth is, I do not like this person I was talking about above because he is arrogant, I'm just not attracted to him in the LEAST, he is too pushy, he brags too much on himself. But like Kooky said, he probably just thinks I don't like him because he is "too nice."

 

He is lying to himself.

 

I think that there are a great many guys who just want to label their self as a "nice guy" as an excuse are simply lying to their selves.

 

I guess I should work on my initial definition of a nice guy. Self-proclaimed, whining, bitter, and rejected "nice guys" really do need to be in a category all to the their selves. Now that I think about it, I don't like them not because they are so called "too nice" but because they are pathetic really!

 

The 'doormat syndrome' some men get during a relationship is a whole other issue. They are not socially inept, They just give too much. Is it just me, or does the self-proclaimed "nice guys" NEVER get any dates?? Sometimes I would just like to be blunt to these guys and say,"look, maybe if you would try to go for someone more on your own level and stop acting like a fool then you could find a girl. Stop complaining about being too nice. She's just not attracted to you plain and simple."

 

This same guy I was talking about above even sent me something online about Nice Guys Finish Last and said that must be why I didn't like him. I just sat in silence thinking in my head, "yeah buddy keep telling yourself that. "

 

These types of guys need to get out of denial and start working on trying to figure out WHY it is they can't get girls or get rejected all of the time instead of just blaming it on being nice and doing nothing to fix the REAL problem.

[immoralist]

The whole "nice guy" lament is really an attack by spurned guys on women who prefer to bend to their will and who prefer someone else. It's an excuse for losing a battle in the mating wars.

 

Instead of acknowledging that she didn't find him interesting, attractive, sexy, etc., these rejected suitors use the "nice guy" attack to feel ok about themselves (after their woman-target selects another guy), to fault the judgment and integrity of the women who had the gall to spurn them and to take a slap at the character of the successful suitor.

 

The "nice guy" lament is a defensive rationalization --albeit one used aggressively--employed by those men who don't get picked-up by women they fancy. It's a balm for wounded pride, and injured vanity.

 

The irony, of course, is that these nice guys are not terribly "nice."

[neptoon]

Originally posted by alphamale

What I was referring to in the original post are the really nice guys. You know the type, would do anyting for anyone, never get mad, no spine, agree with everyone, are friends with lots of women.

Is this how we really define "nice"? Doing anything for anyone doesn't mean he's nice -- it just means he doesn't know how to say No. A guy who seemingly never gets mad is difficult to read -- no one 'never gets mad'.

 

I have a problem with this definition of "nice" -- does nice = lack of passion? I don't think it's fair that we ascribe lack of passion (about life, love, etc.) to the attribute of "nice".

[alphamale]

Originally posted by YX32Nemesis

This is a perfect example...Kooky hit the nail right on the head! Even at the present moment I have this guy, who constantly complains about girls not liking the nice guys, you know all of that talk. Then talks about what a great catch he is, brags a lot about himself, and even refers to me when talking about why girls like jerks and not nice guys like himself. I think a lot of these guys just don't want to face that maybe, just maybe, there is something about them that is socially inept, or for whatever reason just not appealing to the girls they go after.

 

Truth is, I do not like this person I was talking about above because he is arrogant, I'm just not attracted to him in the LEAST, he is too pushy, he brags too much on himself. But like Kooky said, he probably just thinks I don't like him because he is "too nice."

 

He is lying to himself.

 

 

Nice guys are liars and women know it. In the end the self-proclaimed "nice guy" will hurt a woman even more and the women instinctively know it.

 

The "bad boy" masculine type will be much more open and honest with women and therefore end up hurting women less in the long -term.

 

For instance, the bad boy, if he wants sex will find a woman and say "I just want sex". Now, he may get it or he may not.

 

The "nice guy" will still want sex but won't say it to her and will become her friend and lap dog in the hopes of getting sex down the road. Which he will most likely never get.

 

If you are a woman who do you respect more, the direct and honest bad boy, or the indirect and lying "nice guy"??

[alphamale]

Originally posted by immoralist

The "nice guy" lament is a defensive rationalization --albeit one used aggressively--employed by those men who don't get picked-up by women they fancy. It's a balm for wounded pride, and injured vanity.

 

The irony, of course, is that these nice guys are not terribly "nice."

 

 

I totally agree with the above statement.

[Anais]

If you are a woman who do you respect more, the direct and honest bad boy, or the indirect and lying "nice guy"??

 

 

If he is lying then he is not a nice guy. (Maybe you thought he is but you were just mistaken).

 

Bad guy for me: The one who has relationship with many women at the same time.

(who cheats).

 

 

The one who says something and does something else…

 

 

What is a bad guy for you? I am confused.

[whichwayisup]

OK maybe 'nice' is not the right word? The doormat, the eagerness, the 'attentive' guy, the 'listening and giving' guy, no 'arguing guy' = NICE guy or BORING guy??

 

My H is a nice guy yet he has his shining badboy moments; he's strong willed, can be selfish and pissy too, a pain in my ass and gets on my nerves big time...But he still is a nice guy...I guess if he treated me like s*** and disrepected me by not listening or was verbally abusive to me then he'd be more of a 'badboy' wouldn't he?

 

Balance is the key and obviously there are some men out there that have both 'boys' in them. Just as there are some women out there as well. Not all are nice and homey, if you know what I mean...No offensive to anyone, I'm just saying that noone is perfect, there is no perfect, 'happy' marriage 24/7, infact I highly doubt ANYONE is happy and secure 100% of the time.

[whichwayisup]

What is a bad guy for you? I am confused.

 

That is it, everyone has different opinions of what a bad boy is and what a nice guy is. Besides the obvious features of a badboy, I do also agree that men can change into one or the other depending on a relationship and what happens along the way.

 

Again, wonderful thread Alpha!

[alphamale]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

Balance is the key and obviously there are some men out there that have both 'boys' in them. Just as there are some women out there as well. Not all are nice and homey, if you know what I mean...No offensive to anyone, I'm just saying that noone is perfect, there is no perfect, 'happy' marriage 24/7, infact I highly doubt ANYONE is happy and secure 100% of the time.

 

"Normal" people (whatever that is) have both a good and bad side and show those sides. Sometimes they are nice and sometime not depending on circumstances.

 

People that are too nice or too bad are extremes.

[whichwayisup]

"Normal" people (whatever that is) have both a good and bad side and show those sides. Sometimes they are nice and sometime not depending on circumstances.

 

People that are too nice or too bad are extremes.

 

Yeah what IS normal anyways??? Oh that is just another thread for another time I think! LOL!

 

I guess each to their own that is what it comes down to. At the end of the day if you can look in the mirror and honestly say to yourself, I'm happy with who I am with then that makes it all worthwhile.

[theone44]

Originally posted by alphamale

JELLYBEAN:

 

There is a BIG difference between a jerk who masquerades as a nice dude in the beginning and then lets his true colors show later.

 

What I was referring to in the original post are the really nice guys. You know the type, would do anyting for anyone, never get mad, no spine, agree with everyone, are friends with lots of women.

 

The former is a wolf in sheeps clothing. But remember that women do this too and that EVERYONE is on their best behaviior at beginning of new relationship.

 

 

 

I use to be very nice........until got i tired of women walking all over me,but i woke up quick. I do agree with u about the nice guys,they do finish last . Women want a tough,strong man,someone that stronger than she is. Who is very self-confidence,independent a man who will put her in her place now and then,who is not a push-over,and not clingy,needy and not too available.