The problem with "nice guys" - Comments please

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by moimeme

Unfortunately, the lads who whine about the 'nice guys finishing last' think that 'having a spine' is the same thing as 'being a jerk'. Not even close, boys. Not even close.

 

No, that's a generalization. I have a spine and I think nice guys finish last too. But again, a nice/nice guy is really a doormat. So in my opinion, doormats finish last, good guys win, bad guys are just plain losers.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by SoleMate

Oh for crying out loud.

 

NICE GUYS get the nice girls.

 

SPINELESS DOORMATS get walked on and then write whiney posts to Loveshack about it.

 

A lot of SPINELESS DOORMATS think that they are NICE GUYS. Unnh unh. If you don't treat YOURSELF nice, then sorry, you do not qualify as a "NICE GUY".

 

This is a much better generalization.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by moimeme

Alpha, you're so full of cr@p your eyes must be brown.

 

If there is one thing I'm sick to death of, it's men who speak for women. Stop it because you're speaking out of your anal orifice.

 

First off, your 'nice' is not what a 'nice' guy is. What you call a 'nice' guy is a doormat. Nobody wants a doormat. Men don't want women who have no ideas of their own any more than women do.

 

That does NOT mean 'women' want 'bad guys'. That means that some women who are too into pop culture versions of romance may buy the myth that 'bad guys' are interesting. They generally find out that 'bad guys' are simply bad. Those who continue to enjoy lives of drama are drama queens. And hey, Alpha, if that's your image of womanhood, you're welcome to one of them.

 

However, I've yet to meet an interesting woman who wants a bad boy. Bad boys are just that - boys; immaturity, which is the hallmark of a 'bad' boy, is BORING.

 

 

 

Kindly cease speaking for women. That is simply a lie - sadly some of the guys on this site seem to think that you're some sort of guru. The fact, fellows, is that if a gal doesn't follow up in a relationship with you, SHE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. You personally. Not that you're not 'bad'. Just that whatever it is you are, it ain't what she wants. So what. Find someone who does want what you are.

 

 

 

Right. Country music. Truly the source of all great wisdom.

 

 

 

No. Some women are drama queens and think that 'a little bit of danger' is fun.

 

 

 

Also bull. It's much better to know than to constantly guess.

 

 

 

Nope. Someone 'unpredictable' is a pain in the butt. Call already. It's annoying to not know. I have better things to do with my life than wonder about you. Give me someone I can count on.

 

 

 

No they don't. It's just that a lot of guys believe this stupid stupid myth.

 

 

 

The same can be said for men. People are supposed to follow the same path at the same time otherwise somebody gets uncomfortable.

 

 

 

Again. Cease generalizing. Some women do. Others are quite fine with not having a panoply of negative emotions to deal with.

 

 

 

Again, this is not a 'nice guy'. This is a 'doormat'. Kindly cease confusing the two.

 

 

 

Again, wrong. It's useless to resort to ridiculous extremes - there are very few humans like that.

 

 

 

Brilliant, Kooky. You hit the nail on the head exactly. Any guy who moans and whines that 'nice guys come last' is a loser bigtime. Any guy who'd believe all this garbage and try to act on it by acting 'bad' is a guy who needs to spend a lot less time listening to fools. It's the guy who has worked at being a good person and isn't interested in women who won't respect that that women really want. Somebody pining after the sort of drama queen that drools after 'bad guys' is a dud.

 

 

sorry Moimeme:

but you as a female have NO experience in dealing with women in romantic or dating relationships (unless you are lesbian).

 

so you cannot speak of for women in this situation. Men have most of the relationship experience in dating women, not women. You are not qualified to say ANYTHING on this subject.

[moimeme]

Um. I talk to women. We tell each other the truth - that which male egos can be too fragile to accept. You may date many women, but you don't seem to be married. And the fellows who think very differently from you are. How do you explain that? Or, as Dr. Phil says, 'how's that workin' for ya?'

 

What you are spouting is your analysis about why it is that women have or have not flocked to you but that's based on your perception which, of course, is skewed by the fact that you're bitter about it all.

 

What I'm talking about is what women say to each other about men. And, if you'd pay attention, what many women said right on your own thread. However, like the women who refuse to believe that men liking porn is not about them, you will refuse to believe that your theory is seriously flawed.

 

Here's what you do. Go talk to some married women. Talk to happily married women. Have a look at the men they married. You're not going to find any data to prove your theories, bud. There was a study out a year or two ago that concluded that some women might like the idea of dating 'bad boys' but there's no way they want to marry them.

 

Here's a bit of anecdotal evidence for you, since you like it so much. My office is full of married guys. All happily so. Not a 'bad boy' among them. In fact, they're all really nice guys and the best one of the bunch reads what I'm sure you'd consider 'girly' or 'wimpy' books on philosophy. The one 'bad boy' is married and has been hitting on me. He's the only one who makes the 'marriage is hell' remarks and goes on about what a womanizer he is. He reminds me of a high school boy who thinks it's cool to be a smartass. None of the women are the slightest bit interested in him. Least of all me.

[moimeme]

So in my opinion, doormats finish last, good guys win, bad guys are just plain losers.

 

Didn't I say that?

[iceisles]

It has been my experience that most nice guys inevitably wind up being used as a doormat. My ex thought I was the nicest guy in the world, then she left me for a bad boy. Haven't heard a word from her since. It's hard to not believe that nice guys often do finish last.

[moimeme]

Don't let bitterness skew your perception. Was she such a prize?

 

There's a phrase I heard one time in a film and I didn't keep the reference but I think it's brilliant. Memorize this and live by it: "If you're too stupid to appreciate how wonderful I am, then you don't deserve me".

 

Now, this assumes that you actually are wonderful. My last ex was convinced he was a nice guy. He wasn't at all in very many ways, but his self-observation skills were very poor and he just had no clue how not nice he could be. And that your ex left you may have nothing at all to do with your level of niceness - it's facile to blame that and subscribe to a myth about 'nice guys finishing last'. It's much harder to analyze a relationship and figure out what exactly went wrong, so people just default to the myth and leave it at that.

 

Maybe you're nice but not interested in anything and therefore boring. Maybe your idea of a good time differs very much from hers. Maybe you have totally different goals or values. Being 'nice' is not the be-all and end-all. For people to mesh well, there's a zillion factors that need to match. Leaving it at being 'nice' isn't enough and expecting that 'nice' will make you the perfect match for whomever you're interested in is just setting yourself up for failure.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by moimeme

Don't let bitterness skew your perception. Was she such a prize?

 

There's a phrase I heard one time in a film and I didn't keep the reference but I think it's brilliant. Memorize this and live by it: "If you're too stupid to appreciate how wonderful I am, then you don't deserve me".

 

Now, this assumes that you actually are wonderful. My last ex was convinced he was a nice guy. He wasn't at all in very many ways, but his self-observation skills were very poor and he just had no clue how not nice he could be. And that your ex left you may have nothing at all to do with your level of niceness - it's facile to blame that and subscribe to a myth about 'nice guys finishing last'. It's much harder to analyze a relationship and figure out what exactly went wrong, so people just default to the myth and leave it at that.

 

Maybe you're nice but not interested in anything and therefore boring. Maybe your idea of a good time differs very much from hers. Maybe you have totally different goals or values. Being 'nice' is not the be-all and end-all. For people to mesh well, there's a zillion factors that need to match. Leaving it at being 'nice' isn't enough and expecting that 'nice' will make you the perfect match for whomever you're interested in is just setting yourself up for failure.

 

Yeah, that's true, and there were other factors in her leaving me, I'm sure. The distance was probably the biggest one. I don't like to analyze myself too much, but rather rely on the objective perceptions of others. I know I certainly have my faults, but doesn't everyone? I think the reason we see so many "nice guys finish" last posts is because a lot of men see their exes leaving them for someone else who they perceive to be a far worse choice. Certainly some bitterness plays into that, but I think a lot of guys genuinely believe the "myth" and aren't simply just hiding behind it as a simple excuse.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by moimeme

Um. I talk to women. We tell each other the truth - that which male egos can be too fragile to accept.

 

what women say and what they do are two seperate universes

 

you're bitter about it all.

 

i'm not bitter about anything, i'm actually quite happy and content

 

What I'm talking about is what women say to each other about men. And, if you'd pay attention, what many women said right on your own thread.

 

some women on this thread agree with me and in real life I have met many women that are not interested in nice guys

 

 

Here's what you do. Go talk to some married women. Talk to happily married women

.

 

i have yet to see a couple that has been happily married for an extended period.

[immoralist]

i have yet to see a couple that has been happily married for an extended period.

 

alpha, if you didn't already exist I'd have to invent you!

 

You tell the truth, my man.

[moimeme]

I think the reason we see so many "nice guys finish" last posts is because a lot of men see their exes leaving them for someone else who they perceive to be a far worse choice

 

Now who, objectively, is ever going to think their partner left them for someone better? Of course you'll find nothing but fault with the guy who walks off with your ex - but you're not seeing how he is with her when you're not around.

 

I know I certainly have my faults, but doesn't everyone?

 

But it's not about faults - it's about which faults may be bearable versus which may be intolerable - and the next lady may not have a problem with your faults or will be a better mesh. It's about how two people connect on all levels. This stuff is far too complex to be summed up in one-liners.

 

i have yet to see a couple that has been happily married for an extended period.

 

So you have zero backup for your theory. Why don't you go look for some? They definitely exist.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by moimeme

This stuff is far too complex to be summed up in one-liners.

 

No shyt it is complex but does that mean we should not talk about it?

 

Or maybe we should just shut down this forum and stop all discussions on all these topix cause they are all way too complex.

[bebop]

Or maybe we should just shut down this forum and stop all discussions on all these topix cause they are all way too complex.

 

No, no, no, (I know you're not being serious) - this is a good lively discussion and quickly became one of the busiest threads on the boards, so people obviously have had these issues on their minds. Whether or not I agree with one post or another, I'm enjoying reading all p.o.v.s.

[unreal]

This is a great topic of discussion. To those who do not agree with Alphamale's statements regarding this topic, is just not accepting reality. Sure, women will tell you they want the nice guy, but they don't act on what they preach. They want excitement, danger, and the belief that they can "fix" a man. That is where the badboy comes into play. The badboy won't conform to the rules of society, an outlaw you may say. The badboy will not walk the line for a woman and understands that the woman is REPLACEABLE. That is where the nice guy falls into trouble. The nice guy believes in LOVE and allows the woman to control the relationship for fear of losing her because of the belief of love. As Alphamale stated, a woman doesn't want control, she wants a MAN to take control. The answer quite simply is, NEVER let a woman know that she has you. Always let your actions lead her to understand that you will live with or without her and that she is replaceable. Sure, you can tell her that you love her and treat her well when you are "together", but NEVER let her know that you have to have her in your life. In essence, be your own man and she will follow.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by bebop

No, no, no, (I know you're not being serious) - this is a good lively discussion and quickly became one of the busiest threads on the boards, so people obviously have had these issues on their minds. Whether or not I agree with one post or another, I'm enjoying reading all p.o.v.s.

 

I'm ok with POVS but automatically assuming someone is a loser because of one particular view is a very broad generalization without any real merit behind it. Not all men who think that way are losers and not all nice guys are doormats and not all doormats are nice guys. Etc, etc, etc....

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by unreal

This is a great topic of discussion. To those who do not agree with Alphamale's statements regarding this topic, is just not accepting reality. Sure, women will tell you they want the nice guy, but they don't act on what they preach. They want excitement, danger, and the belief that they can "fix" a man. That is where the badboy comes into play. The badboy won't conform to the rules of society, an outlaw you may say. The badboy will not walk the line for a woman and understands that the woman is REPLACEABLE. That is where the nice guy falls into trouble. The nice guy believes in LOVE and allows the woman to control the relationship for fear of losing her because of the belief of love. As Alphamale stated, a woman doesn't want control, she wants a MAN to take control. The answer quite simply is, NEVER let a woman know that she has you. Always let your actions lead her to understand that you will live with or without her and that she is replaceable. Sure, you can tell her that you love her and treat her well when you are "together", but NEVER let her know that you have to have her in your life. In essence, be your own man and she will follow.

 

No woman is going to stick with a "bad boy" that treats her like crap.

No woman is going to stick with a "nice guy" that's a doormat.

 

There's a good balance between of intrigue and chivalry. The thing you don't want to be is a pushover or an arsehole. Find your the balance point and truly be a nice guy without being a doormat or being a "tough" guy without being an arsehole and you've found that balance.

[unreal]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

No woman is going to stick with a "bad boy" that treats her like crap.

No woman is going to stick with a "nice guy" that's a doormat.

 

There's a good balance between of intrigue and chivalry. The thing you don't want to be is a pushover or an arsehole. Find your the balance point and truly be a nice guy without being a doormat or being a "tough" guy without being an arsehole and you've found that balance.

 

 

It has taken me a long while to understand this. And if anyone remembers my first few posts last spring, you will realize that I was the "nice guy" who allowed my ex-gf to walk over me. You are right, a man should not be a doormat. But I stick to my theory of why women want the badboy. And I agree with Alphamale. If we were wrong, you wouldn't have badboys glammorized in movies. You wouldn't have romance novels picturing a long-haired rebel on a motorcycle who steals a woman's heart away from her husband...who by the way is a "nice guy"...yet she just doesn't love him anymore after meeting the harley dude. If you pay attention in the media, hollywood, etc., it is unmistakingly obvious what women want. I mean, why did women want James Dean? He portrayed a rebel. Why do women like the movie "Grease"? It portrayed John Travolta as a rebel.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by unreal

Sure, women will tell you they want the nice guy, but they don't act on what they preach. They want excitement, danger, and the belief that they can "fix" a man. That is where the badboy comes into play. The badboy won't conform to the rules of society, an outlaw you may say. The badboy will not walk the line for a woman and understands that the woman is REPLACEABLE. That is where the nice guy falls into trouble. The nice guy believes in LOVE and allows the woman to control the relationship for fear of losing her because of the belief of love. As Alphamale stated, a woman doesn't want control, she wants a MAN to take control. The answer quite simply is, NEVER let a woman know that she has you. Always let your actions lead her to understand that you will live with or without her and that she is replaceable. Sure, you can tell her that you love her and treat her well when you are "together", but NEVER let her know that you have to have her in your life. In essence, be your own man and she will follow.

 

 

Dear UNREAL:

You hit the nail on the head w/ above comments. Your are 100% correct. The key with women is to know when to treat 'em good and when to treat 'em bad. They love a man in charge that knows what to do and when to do it without being told. Many women will secretly admit that they LOVE to be put in their place by a real MAN when they act up or misbehave.

 

If any woman (including a wife) thinks she has you 100% then you are totally screwed.

[Anais]

I have been in three relationships (I am still in one) and three of them are nice guys. Once I was almost to get into a trap of a bad guy. Bad guys use the weak sides of women to make them to fall in love with them. They start treating them as a queen. Women like words and they know how to use them to get what they want. As soon as they got the woman’s heart they don’t care anymore hiding who they are.

 

 

If a person is cheating on someone else with you he/she will cheat on you too when the time comes.

If a person is treating other people bad, is abusive, he/she will do the same to you.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by unreal

It has taken me a long while to understand this. And if anyone remembers my first few posts last spring, you will realize that I was the "nice guy" who allowed my ex-gf to walk over me. You are right, a man should not be a doormat.

 

A lot of women I have met are insecure in themselves. And this leads them to believe that "If this guy wants me so bad he must be desperate or a loser....." It's not that you are, it's that they don't think highly of themselves.

 

But I stick to my theory of why women want the badboy.

 

It's not that they like being treated badly, it's that it's a challenge to them to be the one girl that "changes" that bad boy. Odds are he's not going to change and in the end SHE will get hurt. But by the time they figure that out the good guy gets away.

 

And I agree with Alphamale. If we were wrong, you wouldn't have badboys glammorized in movies. You wouldn't have romance novels picturing a long-haired rebel on a motorcycle who steals a woman's heart away from her husband...who by the way is a "nice guy"...yet she just doesn't love him anymore after meeting the harley dude. If you pay attention in the media, hollywood, etc., it is unmistakingly obvious what women want. I mean, why did women want James Dean? He portrayed a rebel. Why do women like the movie "Grease"? It portrayed John Travolta as a rebel.

 

Agreed that movies glamorize "bad boys" but a woman with a good head on her shoulders and a lot of self confidence doesn't allow herself to be enamoured by Hollywood Steretypes.

[johan]

The key with women is to know when to treat 'em good and when to treat 'em bad.

It's this kind of comment I find annoying. You're very condescending here. You'll some day run into a woman you really love, and she'll teach you that playing little manipulative games is just a waste of her time.

 

The best strategy by far is to treat a woman good and with respect all the time like you would anyone else you care for. The key distinction you have to make is how you treat yourself. By "acting" like a bad boy, you're just betraying yourself. By tolerating disrespect, you're just betraying yourself. By staying with her when she's clearly not meeting your needs, you're betraying yourself. If you do not even know what your needs are, you are immature. If you're incapable of standing up for yourself when you do know what your needs are, you are a doormat. If you do stand up for yourself, that doesn't put you in the "bad guy" category. It makes you strong and sure and desirable by a mature woman worth having.

 

If you think masking any of those self-betrayals simply by acting like a jerk is going to fool any woman, you will just have to learn. You should check back into this thread after you've dated a woman or two. You've obviously only been with girls.

[iceisles]

Wow, we are getting some intense viewpoints in here. Somebody hand me some ice water! A main problem I have is that a lot of women openly recognize and that the bad boy will be a "challenge" and probably isn't their type, and yet they try dating them anyway. I mean, if you recognize that someone is definitely not your type, why go through all the motions just to get hurt in the end? I think more men and more women should spend more time analyzing their potential matches before jumping in and asking questions later.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Anais

I have been in three relationships (I am still in one) and three of them are nice guys. Once I was almost to get into a trap of a bad guy. Bad guys use the weak sides of women to make them to fall in love with them. They start treating them as a queen. Women like words and they know how to use them to get what they want. As soon as they got the woman’s heart they don’t care anymore hiding who they are.

 

 

If a person is cheating on someone else with you he/she will cheat on you too when the time comes.

If a person is treating other people bad, is abusive, he/she will do the same to you.

 

That's the key. A bad guy will almost always remain a bad guy and he'll eventually take you for granted, cheat on you, etc.

 

A "good guy" (note: not nice guy/doormat) will always treat you well, good times and bad. People fall into their normal modes after about a year. That's why it's good to stick it out with someone for at least a year before deciding to get married. At least by then you'll have seen enough to know who/what that person is.

 

That's not to say people can't change. They do, but mostly it's down, not up. It's easier to fall down than to pick yourself up and make yourself better.

 

I've changed myself for the better over the past year. But it took getting to know God for that to happen. The changes I have made are permanent and will last as long as I remember I don't walk this planet alone anymore.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Agreed that movies glamorize "bad boys" but a woman with a good head on her shoulders and a lot of self confidence doesn't allow herself to be enamoured by Hollywood Steretypes.

 

 

Dear C.O.C:

So where exactly are these women w/ good heads and lots of self confidence? I think they are all at home watching Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives along with some of those cheesy reality shows.

 

No woman, no matter how smart or pretty can resist the hollywood stereotype.

 

I work with women who have MBAs and are pretty good looking and even they are all wrapped up in the hollywood "stereotypes".

 

Come on, look around you man.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by johan

If you think masking any of those self-betrayals simply by acting like a jerk is going to fool any woman, you will just have to learn. You should check back into this thread after you've dated a woman or two. You've obviously only been with girls.

 

Dear JOHAN:

You are misunderstanding here. My definitions are below:

 

"bad boy" - acts like a jerk 10% of time and acts good 90%

"nice guy" - acts good 100% of time

 

By "bad boy" i am not talking about a man who goes around raping women and murdering and criminal activity. I am talking about a man who puts himself first and women second.