Consolidated discussion - The Friend Zone

[MoreThanThat]

Question for the men here on friend zoning women:

 

Would you spend an exceptional amount of time with a woman you saw ONLY as a friend? By exceptional, I mean contact throughout the day via text, telephone calls every day or every other day, seeing in person alone a few times a week? (A situation I'm dealing with personally and would love input.)

[Revolver]

The friendzone is stupid anyway because guys put themselves there and don't move on. It's very simple, a woman knows within the first 5 mins whether shes every going to have sex with you. If that's a no nothing is going to change that. So what men need to do is move on and stop wasting their time with girls who won't give them any play.

[Taramere]

I would rather hear a straight out rejection than a lets be friends. I spent up until 25 hearing "No one wants to date your a$$", "Hell no mother f***er", "Who wants a lame mother f***er like you", and other variations on those three. I forgot there was ugly mother f***er in there too.

 

Charming. I think there's a happy medium between rejections like that, which are outright abusive and totally uncalled for, and a rejection that's so ambiguous that you don't actually realise it's a rejection.

 

I've delivered rejections that were blunter and more unkind than I'd like before, but only in the face of really pushy persistence where I feel that the person isn't showing awareness/respect for boundaries or is being obnoxious in their approach. Even then, I would never have used the kind of insults you describe, which are absolutely horrible and completely unnecessary.

 

I think Mr Flay put it really well:

 

The phrase "Let's just be friends!" actually means "I'm not attracted to you [for whatever reason]." and should be read as such. In most cases the girl doesn't really desire a genuine friendship, just normal acquaintanceship in which there is no awkwardness (though that's hard to avoid once the romantic intentions become clear).

 

I should think most people have had rejections at some point. Not just romantic rejections, but rejections from friends, for jobs, people who write books get rejections, people who are brave insane enough to go on tv talent shows get rejections etc. Having a string of rejections to your name might feel awful in some ways, but it's also a mark of the person who isn't afraid to go for what they want. Who is brave enough to risk rejection.

 

Times I've been rejected, I know I take it personally if the individual is blunt and obviously doesn't give a sh*t about my feelings. I wouldn't hold a grudge, but I wouldn't do somebody like that any favours at a future date....whereas I know that when I was looking for a traineeship (for example) most of the firms I wrote to on spec would write back nice letters along the lines of "we don't have a place right now, but are certain you will have no difficulty finding a training contract and wish you all the best."

 

So then, when you're in practice and you have experience you remember those people who treated you like a human being when you were struggling to find a place, and you're more likely to do them a favour.

 

I think as Mr Flay suggests, "we can still be friends" is often just a combination of trying to be nice and also a bit of a "please let's not have any awkwardness/don't hold the rejection against me..." plea. Of course, if the person you're dealing with is of a mindset to hold grudges and take revenge, where they can, against somebody they've felt rejected by, saying "let's be friends" isn't going to change that. However, a blunt rejection might increase the chances of them reacting angrily and aggressively.

 

Some people do take o very badly...and it's not always easy to predict which men will react in the kind of laid back "okay, no hard feelings" way (that can, by the way, result in a woman regretting her decision) and which will react with such hurt and anger that it could go very badly. We all have to tread carefully at times.

[sillyanswer]

Hmmm I've friend zoned a lot of men over the years and I can share 4 points about it:

 

Since a few posters (including me) take the view that this zone doesn't exist, could you explain what it is that you do with these men that's different from the men you reject?

[MoreThanThat]

Since a few posters (including me) take the view that this zone doesn't exist, could you explain what it is that you do with these men that's different from the men you reject?

 

Friend zone means we have enough of common interests and get along well enough to remain friends on some level without it going further. Rejection means I never have contact with them again.

 

An example....

 

A few weeks ago, a guy I had met through mutual friends struck up an extended conversation with me online. We had a great connection. Similar tastes in music and movies. But when we went out, we got along great but there was no vibe - no tension. #2 on my list. We did have a nice time. The day after, he called and asked me to go out again. I was honest and said that I genuinely like him as a person but couldn't see things go beyond friendship. We've continued light exchanges on music and other things since then.

[Els]

Since a few posters (including me) take the view that this zone doesn't exist, could you explain what it is that you do with these men that's different from the men you reject?

 

Simply put, one requires more in a potential partner than one does in a friend. Ergo, if a person has all the 'friend' attributes but not the 'partner' ones... well.

 

Oftentimes it is mutual, though. And men do it too, of course. Many of the male posters on LS cannot comprehend such a notion, but men IRL do sometimes turn women down.

[sillyanswer]

An example....

 

A few weeks ago, a guy I had met through mutual friends struck up an extended conversation with me online. We had a great connection. Similar tastes in music and movies. But when we went out, we got along great but there was no vibe - no tension. #2 on my list. We did have a nice time. The day after, he called and asked me to go out again. I was honest and said that I genuinely like him as a person but couldn't see things go beyond friendship. We've continued light exchanges on music and other things since then.

 

It sounds like you're making friends with him.

[sillyanswer]

Simply put, one requires more in a potential partner than one does in a friend. Ergo, if a person has all the 'friend' attributes but not the 'partner' ones... well.

 

... then they become friends?

 

 

Oftentimes it is mutual, though. And men do it too, of course. Many of the male posters on LS cannot comprehend such a notion, but men IRL do sometimes turn women down.

 

Yes, I'm familiar with turning women down, and with making friends.

[Els]

... then they become friends?

 

Sure, why not? Especially if they started as friends to begin with. Why cut off all contact just because you don't want to date him?

[MoreThanThat]

It sounds like you're making friends with him.

 

Right? That is what friend zoning is. HE would be happy to have more and has made that clear.

[sillyanswer]

Sure, why not? Especially if they started as friends to begin with. Why cut off all contact just because you don't want to date him?

 

Well, exactly! So it isn't friendzoning, it's making friends.

[MoreThanThat]

These are all true but you can't deny looks is a reason too.

 

 

I had no picture up when I did OLD for awhile. We'd be messaging and then emailing back and forth. She asked for a picture. I obliged. More often than not, things ended immediately. She'd stop responding or was apologetic with a generic response, not mentioning she wasn't attracted. Except for one who blatantly said she wasn't physically attracted to me.

 

That isn't friend zoning in your case, that is rejecting (sorry to say).

[Taramere]

Oftentimes it is mutual, though. And men do it too, of course. Many of the male posters on LS cannot comprehend such a notion, but men IRL do sometimes turn women down.

 

They do. I've a friend who used to post on here (until he got banned) who does online dating a lot, and he's friend-zoned women he's met from there. And these aren't terrible looking, grossly obese women. They're normal, attractive girls who just, for whatever reason, didn't do it for him. So it happens plenty, and I'm sure it will happen more and more as online dating becomes more common. Sometimes you click with a person friendship wise but just not romantically.

 

For me, if I did online dating and I met a guy I had a good laugh with but who just wasn't romantically interested in me, I wouldn't rule out being friends. It's another person to be on friendly terms with, and you never know...he might have a friend who you'd be a good match with. Likewise, I might not feel I clicked with a guy - but I might know a woman who I think would get on really well with him. It just doesn't make sense to throw away potential opportunities for the sake of demonstrating "I will not be friend-zoned".

[Seductive]

I friendzoned a great guy, because I had a strong gut feeling that we weren't a good match. I felt like I had to explain why, but the feeling was there that we weren't meant to be. This dear friend ended up dying at a young age, and I finally realized why my gut said to stay away.

[Pompeii]

Since we live in a democratic society (most of us at least), I believe that everyone should and is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong that may be. What I don't like is how some people make the friend zone seem like some sort of fantasy realm created by delusional men. The friend zone exists. For both genders. It happens when one party out of the two wants to go beyond platonic relations with the other, but the other resists. I've seen it happen to women but I have also seen it happen to men many times.

 

Being put in the friend zone more often than not stems from a lack of sexual attractiveness to the other person. Because let's face it, most people need to feel a sexual attraction to their partner in order to go beyond friendship. I have found that in most cases, it is much easier for men to think of women in a sexual way than for women to think of men in a sexual way. It's been proven that most men would gladly go beyond platonic relationships with most of their female friends, more so than most women. Would most women friend zone Adam Levine? I doubt it. At least not for the short term.

 

As I said, I've seen women get friend zoned. More likely than not from men who have options. I have three roommates. One of them is very successful with women. He frequently friend-zones women because he has high standards for the person he wants to be with but he also has the physical attractiveness and social status to back that up.

 

So yes, the friend zone exists. But I feel like people who say it doesn't have an ulterior motive. For the women, it's more along the lines of "pssh, don't be so silly" as in "how could you be so ****ing stupid to believe something like that exists". For the men, it's more along the lines of "friend zone? Friend zone exists? Lol, I've never been friend zoned" as in "hah, what a loser you are to be friend zoned. Only loser men get friend zoned. I'm not a loser". Both of these are buffers which are intended to reinforce their own supposed sexual potency towards the opposite sex.

[Els]

Well, exactly! So it isn't friendzoning, it's making friends.

 

Errrmmm.. okay.

 

To me, a 'friendzone' is somewhere where friends whom you are 100% certain you will never view as more than platonic, go.

 

Not sure what the other interpretation of it is.

[Divasu]

 

Not hot.

 

Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman are considered major sex symbols. They're aesthetically good-looking but leave me ice cold.

 

Hot!

 

Benedict Cumberbatch is not aesthetically considered good-looking, at least by any generic litmus test. But his personality, intelligence and more emotionally stoic demeanor shine through clearly, that he tops the above two by a light year.

 

So yes, it's true that guys are rejected because they're not attractive enough. Where the distinction lies is the definition of attractive, which will vary per woman.

 

Ryan Reynolds = (RR doesn't give off that 'masculine' 'sexy' vibe, and he doesn't come across as all 'alpha-yee', so I can see why some wouldn't find him attractive. Myself NOT included ).

Hugh Jackman = no

Benedict Cumberbatch = no

[ThaWholigan]

This assumes that all women find the same things attractive but in essence, yeah it can come down to attractiveness. Whether that is always physical......I'd say at least more than half the time.

[sweetkiwi]

Assuming I am single and I meet someone who is interesting or we have shared interests but I DON'T want to date them I opt for friendship. Or just a passing acquaintance which is fine too. If I want to date them I let them know fairly quickly. Sometimes the feeling is mutual, sometimes it's not.

[GravityMan]

I've always looked at the ACT of "friendzoning" like this: the other person likely initially felt some sort of sexual attraction towards you...probably not a strong obvious attraction, but it's there. She may have had mixed feelings about you. Then, after 5 minutes, or one week, or a month...something happened (or nothing in particular happened) and he/she suddenly made up her mind that this isn't going to work out romantically; better to be friends. It's then up to the friend-zoned person whether to accept that or not. The guys who decide to be friends with the fleeting hope that the flames will re-ignite are wasting their time and don't respect themselves. The possibility of re-ignition is slim to none.

 

Being friendzoned by a woman doesn't necessarily mean that the guy made a "mistake" by doing/saying something wrong from the woman's perspective. Sometimes...yes, he screwed up and is to blame; sometimes she is to blame...or perhaps nobody is at fault here and it simply wasn't meant to be due to elements outside their control. Maybe she likes him just fine the way he is...as a friend. Perhaps the other guy that she's strongly attracted to has a few more personality/character "flaws" than FZ-ed guy, but the other dude kindles her sexual fire in just the right way.

 

OTOH, if a woman sees you as a friend from the very beginning...that is not friend-zoning, that is gentle rejection. The two people were on different wavelengths from the start. An experienced man who is good at reading women would likely sense this quickly and decide not to ask her out.

 

I strongly dislike the term "friend zone" anyway, and people make too big a deal out of it. I think guys should get out of this "I got FZ-ed" mindset when a woman decides that she's rather just be friends. It's a negative way of thinking; it indicates that the guy felt that he messed up and failed. Dating, attraction and even basic social interaction between men and women is quite nuanced and many times success/failure doesn't even register on the relevancy scale.

 

There is far more to attraction than just looks, and that holds true for both genders - especially men. The overall vibe a person gives off (how he carries himself, etc.) is closer to the mark. However, at a visceral level, what we are attracted to is (to an extent) out of our control and sometimes it is hard to explain why we are sexually attracted to someone. It's just the way it is. A guy can look great and say & do just about everything "correctly" (this is partially subjective) and the woman may even feel likewise...but if the chemistry isn't there, a sustained loving relationship is very unlikely. Attraction can also evolve with time/age, maturity, life experiences etc.

[Divasu]

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

 

I should have quoted the original post, my apologies.

 

You can find someone physically appealing aesthetically (like TBF mentioned) but they do zip for you. I mentioned Bradley Cooper in another thread. He is 'aesthetically good-looking' and zillions of women are attracted to him, but there is zip going on in terms of 'swoon' when I see him (of course, seeing someone on TV is a lot different than interacting with someone in real life).

 

Attraction is something that cannot be explained in simple terms, period. Especially when there are so many facets to it (IE: Physical, sexual, intellectual, and emotional). So, the premise of it being because "someone is not attractive enough physically", I simply do not agree with.

[serial muse]

I've always looked at the ACT of "friendzoning" like this: the other person likely initially felt some sort of sexual attraction towards you...probably not a strong obvious attraction, but it's there. She may have had mixed feelings about you. Then, after 5 minutes, or one week, or a month...something happened (or nothing in particular happened) and he/she suddenly made up her mind that this isn't going to work out romantically; better to be friends. It's then up to the friend-zoned person whether to accept that or not. The guys who decide to be friends with the fleeting hope that the flames will re-ignite are wasting their time and don't respect themselves. The possibility of re-ignition is slim to none.

 

Being friendzoned by a woman doesn't necessarily mean that the guy made a "mistake" by doing/saying something wrong from the woman's perspective. Sometimes...yes, he screwed up and is to blame; sometimes she is to blame...or perhaps nobody is at fault here and it simply wasn't meant to be due to elements outside their control. Maybe she likes him just fine the way he is...as a friend. Perhaps the other guy that she's strongly attracted to has a few more personality/character "flaws" than FZ-ed guy, but the other dude kindles her sexual fire in just the right way.

 

OTOH, if a woman sees you as a friend from the very beginning...that is not friend-zoning, that is gentle rejection. The two people were on different wavelengths from the start. An experienced man who is good at reading women would likely sense this quickly and decide not to ask her out.

 

I strongly dislike the term "friend zone" anyway, and people make too big a deal out of it. I think guys should get out of this "I got FZ-ed" mindset when a woman decides that she's rather just be friends. It's a negative way of thinking; it indicates that the guy felt that he messed up and failed. Dating, attraction and even basic social interaction between men and women is quite nuanced and many times success/failure doesn't even register on the relevancy scale.

 

There is far more to attraction than just looks, and that holds true for both genders - especially men. The overall vibe a person gives off (how he carries himself, etc.) is closer to the mark. However, at a visceral level, what we are attracted to is (to an extent) out of our control and sometimes it is hard to explain why we are sexually attracted to someone. It's just the way it is. A guy can look great and say & do just about everything "correctly" (this is partially subjective) and the woman may even feel likewise...but if the chemistry isn't there, a sustained loving relationship is very unlikely. Attraction can also evolve with time/age, maturity, life experiences etc.

 

This is very well said. Agree with all.

[somedude81]

I strongly dislike the term "friend zone" anyway, and people make too big a deal out of it. I think guys should get out of this "I got FZ-ed" mindset when a woman decides that she's rather just be friends. It's a negative way of thinking; it indicates that the guy felt that he messed up and failed. Dating, attraction and even basic social interaction between men and women is quite nuanced and many times success/failure doesn't even register on the relevancy scale.

Of course he messed up and failed. I've been friendzoned by more women than I'd care to remember and I was trying to be more than friends with them.

 

When success = intimate physical contact (kiss/sex). Then naturally no kiss/sex = failure.

 

When a guy repeatedly gets rejected by women the only thing he can think of is how he has constantly screwed up. And then he starts to consider himself a loser with depression soon to fallow.

 

I know this all very well.

[CryForNoOne]

Exactly. A person can be good looking/attractive, but sexual attraction is what distincts "friendship" from more. I have known plenty men that have an attractive appearance, but that doesn't mean I would sleep with them. If I don't feel that part of it, then yes he is considered just a friend.

 

And, sexual attraction is not felt just of because of looks, either. Personality and attitude carry alot of weight (for women anyway) when it comes to feeling sexually attracted. For example, I have 1 ex-bf that actually not that great-looking on the surface, but I felt very sexually attracted for other reasons.

 

I actually think it's MEN who "friendzone" women based on looks. Men are much more visually inclined than women. All they need is to see is a pretty face, nice rear, or whatever to be sexually attracted. Even if her personality stinks, they would still hit that because it's hot. Women are more turned on mentally and men are turned on visually.

 

I agree men FZ women based on looks more than women. I also think its a myth that men are FZ'd more than women. Guys do it all the time. The difference is the girl will never have sex with a guy she FZ'd so you get a lot of bitter rants and posts by sexually frustrated men on LS. Whereas a guy will often sleep with a girl he FZ'd until something better comes along. It's called FWB... The women may not even realize that's the case. Se may think they are BF/GF. That's why the vast majority of frustrated female posts here are AFTER she slept with him and she is wondering what happened...

[SJC2008]

I agree you can be physically attracted to someone but not attracted to them, it's even halpened to me. It wasn't a dating scenario it was a customer of mine at a former job. She was a nice woman and physically attractive but she did nothing for me. I think I have this effect on women. I'm a cute guy but I do nothing for most women. When you don't do good with the opposite sex it dies make you insecure. I've questioned everything from my voice to my head to my body language. So the OP does have a good point because while being able to look at yourself to improve, the more you do it the more insecure you can get, that's what has happened to me.