Consolidated discussion - The Friend Zone

[StanMusial]

I think it's a reasonable rule of thumb. Meaning it doesn't happen in every case but in the majority of cases this is why a guy is friend-zoned.

 

I know several guys that spent most of their life in the friend-zone until they eventually met someone and got married. On average they were balding, wore goatees to hide their weak and doubled chin, pudgy and pasty looking sort of fellows.

 

Let's face it, there are many more attractive women than there are attractive men in this world. Most women that are single and looking are not going to pass up the chance to land one by friend-zoning him.

[ascendotum]

The other aspect why this notion can apply is basically, good looking guys have options, for sex or relationships. For a decent looking dude, if it looks like its not going to happen for them with a girl, they wont stick around and hope she might come around. They move on and chase up other prospects. Some guys who don't have much in the way of girls flirting with them, will tend to hang around a girl they find attractive who is friendly to them, because they are getting attention from a woman they have the hots for and they can hope they win her over.

Often the wake up call for friendzone guys, is when they find out the object of their desire, finds a guy she just met (and had sex with) to be what really appeals to her. (from his perspective rightly or wrongly he'll assume looks trump personality)

[CryForNoOne]

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

 

I think you are totally wrong. I was FZ'd by my dreamgirl a couple months ago. I met her at a bar and made a great impression. Our first date was dinner, more bars, lots of alcohol, and ended with an extended make out session. She was really really into me. Our second date was an afternoon hike and I was much less intimate and got FZ'd by the end of the date. I sensed it coming and I knew I blew it. I was so bent about getting dumped by a girl I was certain I was going to marry, I joined an OLD site for the first time and went nuts going on dates. I had dates with 10 different women in less than a month. I've never been much of a dater - I have a lot of experience with either hookups at bars (I'm in lead singer in a band) or LTRs, but not "dating". Well after going on so many dates, I was noticeably "smoother" at the whole dating thing. I recognize how I FZ'd myself with my dream girl. My last few dates, I've pretty much dictated how far things go. If I like a girl, I'm able to make almost immediate body contact and we're holding hands well before the date is over. Then each subsequent meeting, I reestablish intimacy in minutes. It makes all the difference in the world. No way I'd be FZ'd by my dream girl now. So I completely disagree. So much of what women find attractive about a man is how he carries himself...

[JuneJulySeptember]

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

 

Here's what I do.

 

I run down the list of women who have rejected me and KNOWN me, and I think of a guy that they thought was cute/hot. Physically cute/hot. Not Ryan Reynolds or Hugh Jackman. Some guy that we both know/knew. Let's call him Jimmy.

 

And then I ask myself. If I looked like Jimmy, but kept my personality 100%, would I still get rejected? And the answer is no every time.

 

There was even a girl in college I was smitten with who I'll admit, probably did not reject me fully for my looks. But if I looked like Jimmy, she'd have been all about it.

 

I'm also feeling a little bit generous today, so I will say that there are some women who don't care that much about looks and don't swoon so easily over good looking dudes. But it's a smaller %. Maybe 5%. Maybe less.

[CryForNoOne]

And then I ask myself. If I looked like Jimmy, but kept my personality 100%, would I still get rejected? And the answer is no every time.

 

Unless you are that girl, how could you possibly know that...

[TheBigQuestion]

Here's what I do.

 

I run down the list of women who have rejected me and KNOWN me, and I think of a guy that they thought was cute/hot. Physically cute/hot. Not Ryan Reynolds or Hugh Jackman. Some guy that we both know/knew. Let's call him Jimmy.

 

And then I ask myself. If I looked like Jimmy, but kept my personality 100%, would I still get rejected? And the answer is no every time.

 

There was even a girl in college I was smitten with who I'll admit, probably did not reject me fully for my looks. But if I looked like Jimmy, she'd have been all about it.

 

I'm also feeling a little bit generous today, so I will say that there are some women who don't care that much about looks and don't swoon so easily over good looking dudes. But it's a smaller %. Maybe 5%. Maybe less.

 

A lot of women tend to downplay just how much physical attraction plays into their selection of males and the extent to which physical attraction makes them overlook deficits in their other traits. It's the politically correct thing to do and makes them sound more noble. Men will do similar things depending on the conversation, of course.

 

Although I've had my share of conversations about this topic with women directly, I've learned that you get a more accurate picture (and this is usually true regardless of the context) by overhearing the conversations they have among themselves. As far as I can tell, this idea that physical attraction isn't among the most important things they look for is relegated to this little corner of the internet. After all, regardless of what their beliefs on a given topic may be, most people who post here seem to think that LoveShack is not an accurate reflection of the real-life dating and relationship landscape, and tend to warn newcomers accordingly.

 

The fact that this is the case, however, is not an excuse to adopt a fatalistic attitude towards dating.

[TheBigQuestion]

The other aspect why this notion can apply is basically, good looking guys have options, for sex or relationships. For a decent looking dude, if it looks like its not going to happen for them with a girl, they wont stick around and hope she might come around. They move on and chase up other prospects. Some guys who don't have much in the way of girls flirting with them, will tend to hang around a girl they find attractive who is friendly to them, because they are getting attention from a woman they have the hots for and they can hope they win her over.

Often the wake up call for friendzone guys, is when they find out the object of their desire, finds a guy she just met (and had sex with) to be what really appeals to her. (from his perspective rightly or wrongly he'll assume looks trump personality)

 

There is something to be said for this perspective as well. Most of the men who stick to women who have friend-zoned them like barnacles to a cruise ship tend to do so out of desperation for contact with a woman and a lack of self-respect.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Unless you are that girl, how could you possibly know that...

 

Easy. Because they tell me that they'd date Jimmy. Sometimes after knowing him for a week, or a day.

 

 

The fact that this is the case, however, is not an excuse to adopt a fatalistic attitude towards dating.

 

Somewhat off topic. But I find a fatalistic attitude is better if you're a man who has a tougher go at things (or a woman). You realize that no matter how much of your hand you show, the answer will likely be no anyway, and was from the first 5 minutes she met you really.

 

So, you learn to deal with that, don't invest, and play the field.

[USMCHokie]

Although I've had my share of conversations about this topic with women directly, I've learned that you get a more accurate picture (and this is usually true regardless of the context) by overhearing the conversations they have among themselves. As far as I can tell, this idea that physical attraction isn't among the most important things they look for is relegated to this little corner of the internet. After all, regardless of what their beliefs on a given topic may be, most people who post here seem to think that LoveShack is not an accurate reflection of the real-life dating and relationship landscape, and tend to warn newcomers accordingly.

 

That is one of the biggest hidden issues with LS. It is simply not an accurate reflection of the general population, and the folks on LS take for granted their awareness, interest, and knowledge of interpersonal relationships. Let me be clear: people just don't think about interpersonal relationships like we do on LS. So to compare the common layperson out there to those of us who think about and discuss relationships and dating on a daily basis would be foolish at best. LS people are simply smarter when it comes to relationships. The vast majority of the population isn't quite so much.

[SJC2008]

So if a guy is in the fz and she IS attracted to him that would mean there's something about his personality that turns her off. So if there's something about his personality that she doesn't like why would she even stay friends?

 

Most people have average personalities. I'd say I have a slightly above average personality, factoring in depth and humor. I know men with less personality and more personality than I do who have gf's. Looks are very important to women, they just aren't "allowed" to say it.

[JuneJulySeptember]

So if a guy is in the fz and she IS attracted to him that would mean there's something about his personality that turns her off. So if there's something about his personality that she doesn't like why would she even stay friends?

 

Most people have average personalities. I'd say I have a slightly above average personality, factoring in depth and humor. I know men with less personality and more personality than I do who have gf's. Looks are very important to women, they just aren't "allowed" to say it.

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

Most guys are pretty likeable. A few guys are hardcore jerks.

 

The difference between who she hops on top of is looks. In terms of rank:

 

Good looking, good personality > good looking, bad personality > not attractive

[USMCHokie]

So if a guy is in the fz and she IS attracted to him that would mean there's something about his personality that turns her off. So if there's something about his personality that she doesn't like why would she even stay friends?

 

We have to distinguish between attracted to and physically attracted to...people can be physically attracted to someone and yet not be attracted to them for some other reason.

 

Most people have average personalities. I'd say I have a slightly above average personality, factoring in depth and humor. I know men with less personality and more personality than I do who have gf's. Looks are very important to women, they just aren't "allowed" to say it.

By definition, most people have to have average personalities in order for that personality to indeed be average.

 

Here's another question though...what makes you think your personality is "above average"...? How can anyone accurate assess something so intangible and fluid as personality against the personalities of the masses...?

 

You see it all the time around here...people will say that they don't have the looks but then go on to say how wonderful they think their personality is...but how does one even know how wonderful their personality is...?

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

 

I've found this to be true to a degree. When I was single, I would go out with 2 of my best friends (both are tall and good-looking).

 

Mostly unattractive girls would hit on them. They were generally the "take what I can get" guys. So the unattractive girls would hit on them, they'd be down and I'd wing with the more attractive friends.

 

I was happy with this arrangement.

[JuneJulySeptember]

We have to distinguish between attracted to and physically attracted to...people can be physically attracted to someone and yet not be attracted to them for some other reason.

 

 

Here's another question though...what makes you think your personality is "above average"...? How can anyone accurate assess something so intangible and fluid as personality against the personalities of the masses...?

 

 

Looks always dictate though. Personally, I don't believe in the jerks get girls theory. The GOOD looking jerks get guys.

 

About half the women I've liked and been rejected by have ended up sleeping with some jerk. Let's just say none of them looked like William Hung.

 

If you have serious, serious personality flaws, then people will let you know. If nobody says anything about you, then you can pretty much assume your personality is pretty decent.

[ses]

Sure, I've rebuffed the advances of guys whom I didn't find sexually appealing but it had no bearing on their physical appearance. I was not attracted to them nor wanted to engage in a relationship for other reasons.

 

Compatibility is more than looks for me. I find intellect to be an incredibly irresistible quality in men. A stimulating conversation about world politics will eventually have me thinking of other things too. A great match for me does not need to be aesthetically appealing in the conventional sense to attract me. All the guys I've liked differ in some way, but I was attracted to them all the same.

 

His overall personality and our shared values can make me want and desire him.

[USMCHokie]

If you have serious, serious personality flaws, then people will let you know. If nobody says anything about you, then you can pretty much assume your personality is pretty decent.

 

Or average...?

[SJC2008]

We have to distinguish between attracted to and physically attracted to...people can be physically attracted to someone and yet not be attracted to them for some other reason.

 

By definition, most people have to have average personalities in order for that personality to indeed be average.

 

Here's another question though...what makes you think your personality is "above average"...? How can anyone accurate assess something so intangible and fluid as personality against the personalities of the masses...?

 

You see it all the time around here...people will say that they don't have the looks but then go on to say how wonderful they think their personality is...but how does one even know how wonderful their personality is...?

 

You lost me on the most people have to be average...

 

I say I'm above average because my mom told me I have a great personality when she packed my lunch!

 

It depends on what guidelines you're going off of? Going by the aformentioned I'm confident in my slightly above average assesment. But if those things were at the bottom of the list for someone I'd be below average so it could be very subjective.

[TheBigQuestion]

That is one of the biggest hidden issues with LS. It is simply not an accurate reflection of the general population, and the folks on LS take for granted their awareness, interest, and knowledge of interpersonal relationships. Let me be clear: people just don't think about interpersonal relationships like we do on LS. So to compare the common layperson out there to those of us who think about and discuss relationships and dating on a daily basis would be foolish at best. LS people are simply smarter when it comes to relationships. The vast majority of the population isn't quite so much.

 

I'm only in partial agreement. I actually think that the tendency of LS denizens to hyper-analyze dating and relationships is a negative, and that the information one typically could get here is often worse than what you could get talking to people in real life. Most of the people who post here are not therapists or relationship coaches, and it shows (although some of them sure like to think they are, what with their eagerness to pathologize every conceivable behavior, particularly if said behavior is engaged in by a male).

[SJC2008]

I think my problem is that I'm not too masculine. I mean my whole aura, looks, voice and body language. I'm not saying I look like a puss but not masculine enough. Think of Stu from The Hangover.

[apple OR orange]

I fully agree with this, HOWEVER what you never said was:

 

To do what you ask they have to realise they will never get sex again, which is bad enough, however you then have women saying "your find someone", Dr Phil on the TV telling you how you MUST have sex to be healthy....

 

So all this "mis information" doesnt help what will really happen on the planet.

 

I wish i knew this 20 years ago, i would be in a way better place in life now instead of working it out 5 years ago, this means i never get sex, i have no real friends, which is were i would be if i kept trying to find women and just spending all my money being used...

 

 

Outcome, same place now (no sex, no friends) but way more money

 

 

 

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

[USMCHokie]

You lost me on the most people have to be average...

 

Average in this context could generally be defined as the relative quality of personality that is shared by the majority of a population. Put another way, you take out the best and the worst, and what you have left is the "average"...

[USMCHokie]

I think my problem is that I'm not too masculine. I mean my whole aura, looks, voice and body language. I'm not saying I look like a puss but not masculine enough. Think of Stu from The Hangover.

 

We have plenty of classic masculine men to emulate on LS.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'm only in partial agreement. I actually think that the tendency of LS denizens to hyper-analyze dating and relationships is a negative, and that the information one typically could get here is often worse than what you could get talking to people in real life. Most of the people who post here are not therapists or relationship coaches, and it shows (although some of them sure like to think they are, what with their eagerness to pathologize every conceivable behavior, particularly if said behavior is engaged in by a male).

 

I would also add that most of what gets posted here is riddled with projection. People really don't get angry, heated, or indignantly offended by stuff on internet message boards unless they feel threatened in some way. A lot of the advice given out on LS, and particularly, warnings against following advice, is/are motivated primarily by personal morality, and secondarily (if at all) by a desire to really help anyone. Why do you think, for instance, that so many posters insist on painting all PUA/men's dating materials with the same brush, even when faced with direct evidence of its variety, and in light of explanation of its usefulness by otherwise well-liked and respected male posters? I have my theories as to why, but they all come back to one common theme: projection.

[SJC2008]

Average in this context could generally be defined as the relative quality of personality that is shared by the majority of a population. Put another way, you take out the best and the worst, and what you have left is the "average"...

 

I see what you're saying...The best example I could give of my being slightly above average is that if you walked up to a random stranger there's a better than 50% chance that I'll be funnier than him.

[TheBigQuestion]

I think my problem is that I'm not too masculine. I mean my whole aura, looks, voice and body language. I'm not saying I look like a puss but not masculine enough. Think of Stu from The Hangover.

 

Wasn't Stu the one who married Heather Graham's character?