MovingOn13 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 How old are all of you? I really need a change of scenery since **** hit the fan in my dormroom and what not it kinda serves as a trigger or a bad reminder. I am soo ready for summer to finally change scenery and clear my head for good. Link to post Share on other sites
ccfan Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 34 here...... Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 22........ Link to post Share on other sites
1784 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'm a 35 yr old male although I feel less than one lately. Link to post Share on other sites
ccfan Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) After thinking about this thread and that more or less we are the same ages I have to say that for the next relationships we have unfortunatelly not to be that super caring with the other person (or at least i will) because when the balance is broken and the other person feels we care too much then they start to take advantadge. I have a quick story to share: around 10 days ago i received a text message out of the blue from my ex before my current ex (i´ll call her ex 2) she said that she just wanted to say hello and see how i am doing... now this is a really (i think) decent and nice girl and i could have been a better boyfriend to her (i didn´t do anything wrong, just could have pay more attention to little things in our relationship) even though i apologized to her many times for my little mistakes over the years and asked her to come back, she said No many many times... until i met the dreaded ex 1... Anyways, we start talking via text messages and she finally opens up and told me all the things that hurt her, i felt that was a step forward and she finally agreed to see me in a neutral state of mind, meaning that if something eventually happened between us she was ok with it, she said yes loud and clear.. as we did this step forward in reigniting the relationship last friday i decided to do something nice to her and sent her a real nice set of roses to her house with a note... well... the magic lasted until then, she was really arrogant about it, barely say thanks and then sent me a text drunk at 4am saying that she didn´t like that gesture (i gess shes in the 5% range of woman that hates roses delivered to her place)... i have to say thi again ... she was reaaly arrogant about it. I sent her a long email next day saying (once again) that i was sorry if i hurt her before and in a sarcartic way that i was sorry to think of the horrible idea of sending her some roses to show i care. I haven´t heard from her. I already erased her info from my cel, etc.. really sad as i wanted to put myself into this girl. So basically this girl calls me, opens up, agrees for a meeting and for whatever can happen from it, then receive some roses and is angry and offended...... ??? what the hell happened!???.... I think sadly that i´m done being so nice with girls, nowadays it doesn´t seem to be working for us guys... What do you guys think?? Edited March 25, 2011 by ccfan Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Bunch of old farts in my thread...lol As for flowers bitch, maybe she was just felt you were coming on too strong? I have no idea. There are so many factors involving your history with her that it's almost impossible to know why she was so turned off by the flowers. Some(most) women are just bat **** insane and can't be logicaly explained when it comes to stuff like that. It sounds like you dumped her the first time? Maybe she still has some deep seeded resentment towards you that surfaced again. Link to post Share on other sites
ohemgeee Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 hey there just wanted to let you know I enjoyed reading this. I'm just two weeks into the break up. I pleaded for him to stay too, made me feel pathethic, but i thought we meant more than that. After all we were getting ready to move out of state together here in the next few weeks. I just started the NC on wed.. its one the hardest things about the split, not seeing him nor talking to him. Every text after the break up would lift my depressed feelings for few hours, now I have no temporary fix. I just wish I could dislike him at this point, but when I try it just upsets me, because I still care about him more than anything, and would give anything to have our life back. Link to post Share on other sites
shawn923 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Im 22. I enjoyed reading this because it sounds very similar to my situation. Im 2 months since my breakup, and coping with on and off NC. trying to stick with it this time. Lol i also smoke weed to try to forget about the depression, and it does help sometimes... I also workout and play ball pretty much 5 days a week, so if nothing else that takes my mind off of her for a couple hours a day. And yes, i wake up every morning and go to be every night still missing her, even when she dumped me, treated me badly, and told me would never have a 2nd chance. Shes consistent with "i just dont give 2nd chances. its just me." And yes! Im a FIRM BELIEVER in karma as well. I just hope she gets whats coming to her... She shouldnt get to go thru life doing bad, selfish deeds like a heartless robot and not have it done back to her... And i also believe that like many of u, when u put ur ALL into a relationship and show that girl unconditional love, she gets cocky and thinks she can find that in any guy. When they fail to realize, (my ex is gorgeous i hate to admit...) that the others guys that ARE showing them attention, simply want sex... Theres no way a girl can just jump from guy to guy and get each of their unconditional love's, and leave them high and dry. My ex broke up with me because she claimed i changed into somebody she didnt like, and that there was no way i could ever make it up. I never cheated or abused her, which was i I'm baffled as to why she refused to at least work on getting a second chance... In my case, my ex told me, "if i didnt give (her previous ex, who she was with longer than me) a second chance, then why would i give u one?" a slap in the face... I believe that if u showed ur ex true unconditional love, and u will know u did because of the heartbreak, then I just dont think she'll ever find that again. Like she so mindlessly believes... I guess we gotta let the slow game of karma play out. Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 My ex broke up with me because she claimed i changed into somebody she didnt like, and that there was no way i could ever make it up. I never cheated or abused her, which was i I'm baffled as to why she refused to at least work on getting a second chance... In my case, my ex told me, "if i didnt give (her previous ex, who she was with longer than me) a second chance, then why would i give u one?" a slap in the face... Damn, it pissed me off when my ex brought up her first relationship as she was dumping me too. Saying she knew what I was going through because she had her heart broken once and blahblahblah. She was 16 when she went out with her ex that was 7 years older than her, and then she compares that teenage bull**** that never went past first base to our 3 year relationship. What kind of ****ing 24 year old dirtbag goes out with a 16 year old anyway? I would feel wrong going out with a 19 year old at this point. Pathetic. And i also believe that like many of u, when u put ur ALL into a relationship and show that girl unconditional love, she gets cocky and thinks she can find that in any guy. When they fail to realize, (my ex is gorgeous i hate to admit...) that the others guys that ARE showing them attention, simply want sex... I feel you buddy. Hopefully the next relationship our ex's are in end up with them being treated like ****. It would make my day in a few years to find out some guy she "loved" went robot mode on her and gave her a taste of her own medicine. The worst part was how she flip floped from saying I love you to saying I never loved in the span of a few months. It takes a real pathetic coward to lie to yourself for 3 years about your true feelings because it's easier being with someone. Such a ****ing shame. Link to post Share on other sites
shawn923 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Damn, it pissed me off when my ex brought up her first relationship as she was dumping me too. Saying she knew what I was going through because she had her heart broken once and blahblahblah. She was 16 when she went out with her ex that was 7 years older than her, and then she compares that teenage bull**** that never went past first base to our 3 year relationship. What kind of ****ing 24 year old dirtbag goes out with a 16 year old anyway? I would feel wrong going out with a 19 year old at this point. Pathetic. I feel you buddy. Hopefully the next relationship our ex's are in end up with them being treated like ****. It would make my day in a few years to find out some guy she "loved" went robot mode on her and gave her a taste of her own medicine. The worst part was how she flip floped from saying I love you to saying I never loved in the span of a few months. It takes a real pathetic coward to lie to yourself for 3 years about your true feelings because it's easier being with someone. Such a ****ing shame. Lmao! Dude is turning 25 this year, Im 22, shes 20. same thing with u! And besides im not buying that bs, she tried to put him up on a pedestal as if i was suppose to get jealous or something. YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN WITH ME IF HE WAS SOOO GREAT! And im also not buying that "i dont give second chances" bs. Everybody does. Its human nature. She's just so fawking big-headed that she honestly thinks "my way or the highway. you fawk up once with me, and your done"... Its this kind of thinking that pisses me off. She messed up hella times thru out our R, and even wanted me to change! (religion) And i put up with all that, and AT LEAST agreed to work on it. Then i make ONE mistake, and snap on her cuz i thought she was flirting with somebody else, then poof... Im gone. No 2nd chance. And thats why im so fawking pissed/confused/depressed. LMAO i would love to see that also... otherwise it kinda seem like she stole my heart, got away with it, left me to dry, AND found happiness with somebody else! I just dont think life works that way... Everything happens for a reason. Matter fact ima start a thread on that. "Has anybody's ex, after doing them totally wrong, went on to be happy as ever? and stayed that way?" I doubt it.... And i feel for u man. 3 years is a fawking lifetime... Mine was only 3 months lol, but regardless we shared the best relationship i had to date... Just be glad were both still VERY young with loads of oppurtunity out there. Its likely my or your ex IS NOT the one. People marry, divorce, and re-marry every day... just be glad me/you never got to that stage, ya know kids, marriage, house, lawsuits, divorces, splits... etc... imagine if u had been that deep with this girl when she decided to show u her true colors. Im positive it woulda hurt way more. The best thing u can do is look at as a learning experience. Do u see urself making these same mistakes in a nxt relationship? I dont think so. You'll be able to spot lust from love much easier. Just take from this experience that you/our NEXT relationship... WILL be our LAST/BEST. Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Only 3 months? Man you'll be fine in no time. She wanted to change your religion? That's bull****. My ex is christian and when we first met with I told her I am an agnostic/atheist. I made it clear about my beliefs and although we had little arguments over the years I don't think it was ever a major problem. At first I thought she was just a crazy bible thumper but she respected me enough to not even try preaching to me. If your ex is stupid enough to try and make you change your religion she isn't worth the effort. I've had quite the frustrating weekend. Went out drinking with some buddies on friday night, had a good time until we decided to go to a mcdonalds afterwards. Even though I was wasted I instantly remembered this mcdonalds as the one where me and my ex stopped in for icecream when we just started going out 3 years ago. The entire night came back in my memory like how I imagine an acid flashback would be. Up until that point I hadn't thought of her much that day. Now I haven't been able to get her out of my head for the past 2 days. I've even started dreaming about her again the past 2 nights. It's been really ****ing demoralizing to say the least. I almost drunk texted her at 3am but luckily I couldn't see straight enough to type in the number. Link to post Share on other sites
giveittofate Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I was just catching up on this thread and seen you guys talking about religion...that's funny because my ex was christian too (had the rosary dangeling from the car and what not) I myself like you silvermane am more or less an agnostic, although I'm totally openminded to what people want to do and what they want to believe, as long as the love is there and we both care for each other I'm all for supporting her and what she wants to believe and do...anyways the first year she new I wasn't the religous type, but after that year mark hit, it's like she gave me an ultimatum, she can't be with someone who doesn't share her faith or believe in Jesus (yet the first year I'd be listening to stand-ups that make fun of that, and she knew where I stood on religon and how I didn't agree with a lot of it) she then started going off how her kids (when she has them) are going to be raised a certain way and go to christian schools, and her futurue husband will support that and accompnay her to church always....I was like WHAT THE F*CK! Where is this all coming from? you knew for a year I wasn't that type, yet we still share love and passion for each other...crazy stuff man...I just think if truly love someone you accept them for who they are and not give ultimatums..but thats just me. Shawn923, I couldnt agree with you more man about atleast we didn't put rings on these girls fingers, have kids, a house, etc....it really could be MUCH worse...and like you said this was a great learning experience, because this was the first time in my 24 years where I actually grew up a decent amount...I f*cked up a lot in the begining stages of our relationship, but from all the downfalls and screw up I've grown, and for that I'm happy and proud...I know for a fact I'll be sooo much more ready and prepared to experience a loving relationship when it comes again, that's why although this breakup has knocked me down so hard and gave me depression for the first time in my life, it helped open my eyes to a lot and make me grow. Link to post Share on other sites
giveittofate Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 also, I want to add....don't you guys love it (maybe you seen this through your exes) when they talk about how they're good christians, yet have premartial sex, go clubbing and show of their goods, drinks and party, make fun of other girls they don't know, and yell at their parents a lot.....then turn around and say "lets go to church, I LOVE GOD".....hypocrites...now that pissed me off Link to post Share on other sites
ccfan Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 also, I want to add....don't you guys love it (maybe you seen this through your exes) when they talk about how they're good christians, yet have premartial sex, go clubbing and show of their goods, drinks and party, make fun of other girls they don't know, and yell at their parents a lot.....then turn around and say "lets go to church, I LOVE GOD".....hypocrites...now that pissed me off Hell yes.... it´s ridiculous to say the least... my ex was SO fake in her religion thing.. she was always God this and God ... and her speech was "i´m so decent and family oriented" but every single day she would judge everyone, critizice everyone, be insanely obsesed with money, flirt with as many guys as possible, in person, in twitter or in her crappy tv show and at partys and clubs of course, and was dressed with the most ridiculous stripper like outfits.... what a great nice catholic girl she is... Yes,,, what a gem these girls are... a little bit more and they would be pronounced saints by the vatican..... so glad i´m out of that nightmare.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 lol wow you guys had some real nutjobs to deal with. other than sleeping in while she went to church some sundays I never had to deal with any religion bull****. I wish she had tried to push that **** on me so I would have another reason to be ok with the whole break up. The first year we met she would go to church almost every sunday. After that it fell off to a few times a year. Then when she dumped me I got the old "we're just different" excuse. Yea, we were sooo similar when you were a church going girl that didn't swear. Now that you swear like a sailor and want sex all the time it's time to pull the "we're just different" card... such bull****. Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 ugghh I still can't stop thinking about her. Good times, bad times, things she said, things i said, things I did, things I didn't do, etc. I haven't been this tortured by being unable to control my thoughts in months. All because of a drunken 2am trip to a random fastfood joint that we went to once 3 years ago. I walk past triggers everyday but for some reason this was different. It makes no sense...I just want to forget... Link to post Share on other sites
1784 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I know how you feel, silvermane. It's hard, really hard. I takes discipline. The thing that has been working for me is this - remember the guy you were before her. All of the things that you liked to do. Be that person. Do everything that you always enjoyed and more. You don't have to be less than you without her. Sure it hurts. Any time we lose something it hurts but it's within you to distract yourself from thinking of her and what was. You can either wallow in loss or move forward with hopeful excitement. Do what you can to choose the latter. It's a much better ride. Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Thanks for the reply...I know what you're saying about being who you were before the relationship, and normaly it would be good advice, but it doesn't really apply to me since I was just a dumbass 19 year old kid before. Going back to that would not be an improvement. When I was with her I never stopped doing the things I liked to do. I spent all weekend distracting myself with my favourite hobbies. It just hasn't seemed to work this time. Now it's Monday and I'm at work so I'm trapped having her creep back into my head every few minutes. Hopeful excitment isn't really in my personallity. I'm a realist. Even if everything works out the way I hope it does I don't see much to get excited about. Sorry to be such a downer, just needed to vent a little more... Link to post Share on other sites
1784 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 You can vent all you want, bud. That's what we're all here for. You may lose the girl but you don't lose what you've learned. You're not any less of who YOU are right now. Believe me, I know what it feels like to lose someone who seemed to make your world worth it. Still, you have to be happy with yourself. In the grand scheme of things you'll never be happy with anyone unless you can be happy alone. P.S. - you can have hopeful excitement and be a realist as well. I'm quite the realist. My life hasn't exactly been sunshine and moonbeams and oftentimes I really have to try to be positive about life. It's more an attitude you have to adapt. Anyway, vent away. I just know that you can be happy. Link to post Share on other sites
MovingOn13 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Silver, Stay strong man. I know how the triggers feel...i pretty much live in the presence of triggers since **** hit the fan at my university...and we would eat together at dining halls etc. Even being in my room pisses me off since it was n here that i got the stupid break up txt and what not. Hang in there man we are all more or less in the same situation/sentiment. I am blessed enough to have good health and wealth, i just need to work on relationships. I am open to people i know but i struggle to be proactive in meeting new people and i think thats were my anxiety and frustration comes from since i no longer have a comfort companion. Link to post Share on other sites
ccfan Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Great advice 1784...! Siver: The triggers are going to be there for a long time, it still happens to me at over 6 months since she dumped me, in my case kind of a hassle because she lives in a not so nice part of the city so we did our day to day life around my place, so i have triggers in "my" malls, restaurants, farmacys, movies, so on and so on... the good news is that although it feels like they are never going to disappear, they will start losing power more and more and i recommend that as soon as that happens you do new stuff in those places to make new memories. Like 1784 said you were a happy person BEFORE you met this girl, you had a life, dreams and so many things on your horizon, try to remember that this girl does not define your life or your happyness... sure, she is as for now, but is just a power over you that she momentarily has and for sure will start to fade (wich btw is ironically when the exes get back in touch) . Also, like MovingON said, it´s really important that you count the blessing in your life, all my friends get kind of angry at me for being down so long because of a bimbo and they tell me that i´m lucky to be making a living being a sucesful musician, to appear on mtv, radios, tours and so on... it´s definetely NOT about being cocky or anything like that.. its about rebuilding the self steem that our exes totally did take away from us. I´ll start by saying that you are a really young guy with tons of time ahead of you and the possibility to meet a 10x better girl and get a kick ass job. It´s ok to be down as i´m rigth now regarding that i feel that i wont be able to love or trust a girl again after what she did to me. Just try to keep it not too down ...Stay strong brother. Edited March 28, 2011 by ccfan Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Thanks dudes... I've been making a lot of progress dealing with the daily triggers which is why this blind sided one hit me kinda hard. I just didn't expect a random night out drinking 6 months after the dumping to end like that. Hopefully the next time I get blind sided it won't hit me as hard. As for being happy by myself...yea that's always been an issue for me and is probably a main reason why I'm still dealing with this **** 6 motnhs after the fact. I was always pretty prone to depression before I met my ex. Being with her was the first time I was ever really happy for an extended period of time. At least now I know I'm capable of being happy on a day to day basis. There's a positive for you guys. Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yesterday wasn't a bad day. It took me about 30 seconds after waking up before she came into my thoughts. I think that's a record. On a bad note I have a minor knee injury that is going to put a damper on my running over the next couple weeks. It's been bothering me for a couple weeks now but I soldiered through it thinking it would just go away. Bleh. Today on the other hand is going to be a bad day. I don't know why but I haven't been able to get her out of my head from the moment I woke up 2 hours ago. It's like shes a scab in my brain and the more I try not to think about it the more I want to pick at it. Then the moment I start thinking about something else is when I pick it without realizing. Days like these I can't shake the feeling my life is completely meaningless. Sure I have my health, a half decent job, a half decent family, a few decent friends, I live in a country with tons of stuff that half the world would kill for...but it's just such an empty existence. A day I look forward to all year is happening on friday and while I've been faking excitment I really don't feel anything positive in the slightest. Normally at this time of year I get that spring fever that fills me with happiness and relief that winter is over and summer is almost here. So far all it's done is trigger more memories that I had made myself forget over the past 5 months. Blah. Oh and I finally caved after a couple weeks of NC and checked her twitter on the bus to work this morning. Bad idea i know. ****ing smart phones and lack of sleep are the destroyer of will power. She had changed her profile picture to one she took of her own legs/ass. Clearly she's dying for attention if she took the time to set up her laptop a few inches below her seat and take a picture with her foot so she can show off her ass. Oh and she went out to a ballot show. I imagine she went with some guy. Oddly enough other than the inital suken heart when my imagination took over I don't really give a ****. I just hope she eventually cares enough for a guy that when he dumps her she is totally destroyed. That would be some sweet karma. Just a bad day vent I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites
ccfan Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Hey Silver.... What a hassle that you are having tough days, I don´t really know what to tell you as I had a HORRIBLE monday (i´ll talk about it in a sec). Yes, the mornings are the worst, i always wake up tired, unrested and remember about this or that time that she did me wrong and how did I allow it, and like you, it frustrates me that even though i have had a good two or trhee week seasons without thinking much of her, then she comes back in my head like you wont believe... unless there´s a secret guru somewere hidden in the mountains we have to man up and deal with these punches. I too feel an empty existence, my work is at it´s best, but i´m not happy in the slightest bit... not easy to be in our shoes brother... As for my monday, here´s what happened.. kind of weird and spooky actually: ... at noon my mother calls me to say to me tht she saw her in tv promoting a new tv show, she said this just when i was sitting to eat lunch and my appetite completely dissapeared... then totally out of the blue my ex´s best friend text me and says that they all miss me, that i have a friend there and so on... that was weird as i never talk to this guys and then another friend of hers texts me saying hello and asking about me... i felt under a weird attack from my ex and gave in: i went online and checked her FB , Twitter and so on... and of course her life apparently looks just fantastic without me: travels, flirting with guys, talked about her new proyects and so on... i was devastated to say the least... thankd God Tuesday and today i´m a little bit better. My only dark satisfaction i that as i predicted she gained weight and does not look as the hottie that dumped me, ... againg not cool to be happy about that , but is the only thing i have. I just bought a couple books on amazon regarding dealing with a break up, hope they do any good. There´s nothing really i can say at this point that the next time we feel the weakness to look into social sites, WE MUST NOT DO IT AT ANY COST... i´ve neve ever heard of a case of someone like us that goes to twitter of fb and ends up happier from what he saw... My friends here are also giving me kind of a hard time saying that it´s been too long, that i need profession help and so on... i think 6 months with tons of good days in between is not that bad.. some people spends a year or more.. so this is the only place i have to talk about this fraking pain. again we need to triple man up and deal with this, it´s not going to last forever. Edited March 30, 2011 by ccfan Link to post Share on other sites
Author silvermane187 Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Yea ccfan I know what you mean. I never even bothered talking to my friends about it after a few weeks because I know they wouldn't understand. The last time my buddy brought up my ex I snapped and he was surprised that I still cared. He said "Duuude that was soooo long ago". "Yea, well, not to me dumbass" was my instant response. I didn't talk about her IRL until a few weeks later when my sister asked me if I had heard from her. I told her about how I told my ex off for inviting my friend to her bday party. She thought it was no big deal, that I'm doing fine, asked if I have any other girls yet. When I said it's going to be a long time before I ever trust a girl enough to be in a relationship she scoffed at me like I'm some kind of emo pussy saying "all she did was break up with you". Yea sister, being rejected by the one person you cared about the most in the world is no big deal. Thanks for the great adivce. It's funny how when we were together I didn't have a smartphone and wish I did so I could talk to her more easily. Now that I do have one I wish I didn't so I wouldn't have the urge to check up on her on those boring early morning bus rides. Not only am I curious and miss her but I do kind of worry about her because the only family she has in the country is a couple hundred miles away. It's like if I see she was online in the past few days I know she's ok. But you're right that regardless of reasons we have to stop it. I was good at fighting the urge the past few weeks. I plan on making it last longer this time. Even with her bday coming up next week. Thank god she has her FB on private, I can only imagine the damage seeing her wall would do to me. If shes putting up her assets as her profile picture there must be a ton of flriting and **** going on that I would never want to see. I'm glad I found this site and started this thread. I think bottling everything up for the first 4-5 months did more harm than good. I've always been a very introspective and quiet person so it's good to get some stuff out that I would never volentarly lay out on to my friends/family. Oh and I was just about to check amazon for some new books before you posted. I've been reaing a lot of war books lately. Not only is WW2 history one of my favourite hobbies but it helps put things in to perspective. At least I'm not spending 10 days getting shelled in a muddy foxhole on Okinawa or freezing to death while a milion angry soviets rush me on the eastern front. To think about the hell that kids my age and younger went through can sometimes help trivalize the my own empty existence. Edited March 30, 2011 by silvermane187 Link to post Share on other sites
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