SteveC80 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 As far as thin guys go, I don't think guys should be thin, and it's hard for me to take them seriously. I think they should have a nice set of muscles, and be strong. Lean/skinny is only sexy until it's time to lift a table, and Why do you as a Man care what other guys are built like:sick:
sweetjasmine Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Scrawny is just bad lol. And yet women are the ones who pressure men to be ripped, right? I've dated scrawny men and liked the way they looked. My SO is naturally not-scrawny, and I like the way he looks, too. He started lifting weights again a few months ago. He puts an insane amount of pressure on himself about it and feels like he absolutely has to look muscular. I've never mentioned it and actually told him that I find the overly-muscular look gross, yet he says things like, "Yeah, well, when I get all built, you'll love it." He refuses to believe me when I say I don't really like the super ripped look. It's the same dynamic as "omg I'm so fat, look at how fat I am, my butt looks so huge in these jeans" // "No, honey, you look fine" // "You're just saying that!!!! It's not true!!! I'M FAT!!! :mad:".
Mutant Debutante Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 We have it easier losing fat? lol. I don't buy it one bit, should be easier) but I don't. . MrNate, this is so well-documented it's ridiculous. Please just look it up. Almost anywhere you Google anything like 'weight loss strategies men women' 'men women losing fat' the fact that men have an easier time losing fat will come up.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I also don't agree that men are pressured by women to be buff. Personally, I like thin guys. Lean guys. Sometimes, they work out. Sometimes, they don't. I know a lot of pretty girls, and I know very few who have ever expressed interest in muscles. In fact, we make fun of muscle guys. I don't know how old you are... or where you live, but this is not true at all. For a years I bounced between 6-12% bodyfat... I would get treated VERY differently at those two levels. To put it in terms you can relate to.... it's equivalent to as a woman moving from a size 2 to 12 in how men treat you. I'm basing that on how I see my friends treat the difference. I think your thinking about those Arnold style body builders... yeah I've seen girls make fun of them. I don't agree. I think men drive this muscled-men concept. I think women drive some female beauty concepts. I think women do consider looks when dating a man, and men do consider looks when dating a woman. I think women have a harder time staying in decent shape and that it is considered more important that the average woman do that than that the average man be a muscle guy. In short: I think almost exactly the opposite of you. So, nah, we can't all agree. The best we can do is agree to disagree. You really think that? That men create an image of what they think is attractive to women... and then women respond to that image by being attracted to it? I like that you mentioned where physical attraction fits into dating! That is a concept I don't think has been explored in this thread. Here are my thoughts: Men tend to have types... features they are attracted to. Plus what we find physically attractive tends to range over a broad spectrum. This makes it easier for women initially to get a guy interested. However, when these conditions are not met from the outset.... we are MUCH more shallow. Women also have types but they are not as specific to features, and often include perceived personality traits too. It is much harder to get a woman initially interested in you physically. However, women are MUCH less shallow in terms of developing attraction. I assume this is because a larger portion of attraction is emotional. As this applies to the current thread.... Women need to put in much more effort to maintain an appearance, while men need to put in more effort to get a foot in the door. Thoughts?
SteveC80 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I don't know how old you are... or where you live, but this is not true at all. For a years I bounced between 6-12% bodyfat... I would get treated VERY differently at those two levels. To put it in terms you can relate to.... it's equivalent to as a woman moving from a size 2 to 12 in how men treat you. I'm basing that on how I see my friends treat the difference. I think your thinking about those Arnold style body builders... yeah I've seen girls make fun of them. You really think that? That men create an image of what they think is attractive to women... and then women respond to that image by being attracted to it? I like that you mentioned where physical attraction fits into dating! That is a concept I don't think has been explored in this thread. Here are my thoughts: Men tend to have types... features they are attracted to. Plus what we find physically attractive tends to range over a broad spectrum. This makes it easier for women initially to get a guy interested. However, when these conditions are not met from the outset.... we are MUCH more shallow. Women also have types but they are not as specific to features, and often include perceived personality traits too. It is much harder to get a woman initially interested in you physically. However, women are MUCH less shallow in terms of developing attraction. I assume this is because a larger portion of attraction is emotional. As this applies to the current thread.... Women need to put in much more effort to maintain an appearance, while men need to put in more effort to get a foot in the door. Thoughts? So women are more shallow and pickier then Men visually but less shallow when they get to know the person is what your saying
MrNate Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Why do you as a Man care what other guys are built like:sick: I meant it as a reference, lol Forgot to attach 'no homo'.
MrNate Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 MrNate, this is so well-documented it's ridiculous. Please just look it up. Almost anywhere you Google anything like 'weight loss strategies men women' 'men women losing fat' the fact that men have an easier time losing fat will come up. Sure, if it's believed this strongly, then I went and did a little research. It seems the conclusion is that women tend to store it more readily, but they can tone down just as well. Their workouts just have to revolve around more of the aerobic kind, as opposed to weights. So everything still makes sense. Women store it more readily, but cardio proves to be as effective for them as muscle is for men. So now it comes down to playing to strengths. Estrogen may prove to be a slight set back, but I don't think it's some sort of significant one. If someone wants to lose fat= cardio, weights, diet. It can be done, even if women are more prone to store fat. Again, regardless of genetic/hormonal disposition, it all boils down to getting on your feet, and doing work if you want to look good.
MrNate Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 And yet women are the ones who pressure men to be ripped, right? I've dated scrawny men and liked the way they looked. My SO is naturally not-scrawny, and I like the way he looks, too. He started lifting weights again a few months ago. He puts an insane amount of pressure on himself about it and feels like he absolutely has to look muscular. I've never mentioned it and actually told him that I find the overly-muscular look gross, yet he says things like, "Yeah, well, when I get all built, you'll love it." He refuses to believe me when I say I don't really like the super ripped look. It's the same dynamic as "omg I'm so fat, look at how fat I am, my butt looks so huge in these jeans" // "No, honey, you look fine" // "You're just saying that!!!! It's not true!!! I'M FAT!!! :mad:". Well it's good to see you prefer scrawny men, I'm sure plenty of women do, as they all have different tastes. My opinion on men is my own (no homo by the way). As you can see from what you typed, it again illustrates why men put a priority on muscles, because we equate that with enhancing attractiveness. Plus, there are too many results out their to contest it. Your SO may just want to get stronger for himself, which I understand. With the utmost respect to you, sweetjasmine, even if my SO was fine with my body, if I know I can achieve great heights with myself, I'm going to go for it. I consider things like that a more personal 'me' thing. Complacency kills. I'd almost go as far as muscles for a man being equated to curves for a woman...they're not necessary, but they are widely viewed (with excessive amounts of results proving positive) as greatly enhancing attraction. But again, this is just my sole opinion. And most butts that look huge in jeans come out looking just fine. But that's for another time.
MrNate Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I don't know how old you are... or where you live, but this is not true at all. For a years I bounced between 6-12% bodyfat... I would get treated VERY differently at those two levels. To put it in terms you can relate to.... it's equivalent to as a woman moving from a size 2 to 12 in how men treat you. I'm basing that on how I see my friends treat the difference. I think your thinking about those Arnold style body builders... yeah I've seen girls make fun of them. You really think that? That men create an image of what they think is attractive to women... and then women respond to that image by being attracted to it? I like that you mentioned where physical attraction fits into dating! That is a concept I don't think has been explored in this thread. Here are my thoughts: Men tend to have types... features they are attracted to. Plus what we find physically attractive tends to range over a broad spectrum. This makes it easier for women initially to get a guy interested. However, when these conditions are not met from the outset.... we are MUCH more shallow. Women also have types but they are not as specific to features, and often include perceived personality traits too. It is much harder to get a woman initially interested in you physically. However, women are MUCH less shallow in terms of developing attraction. I assume this is because a larger portion of attraction is emotional. As this applies to the current thread.... Women need to put in much more effort to maintain an appearance, while men need to put in more effort to get a foot in the door. Thoughts? I agree, when muscular/defined men stop getting so many positive responses from women, then I think it'll become less a priority. I.E. I'm sure most of us have stopped by USMC's shirtless picture thread..what were the responses there? If there's a negative one (on the several pages of women calling him hot), I'd be more than happy to read it. Or are the LS women somehow different from others? All props to you though, hokie, for putting in work lol. No homo.
sweetjasmine Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 As you can see from what you typed, it again illustrates why men put a priority on muscles, because we equate that with enhancing attractiveness. Exactly, YOU equate it with enhancing attractiveness. So how is "women pressure men to get ripped" accurate then? You admit that even if your girlfriend was perfectly happy with your body that you would still feel inadequate if you weren't ripped. So where's that pressure coming from?
Author USMCHokie Posted July 23, 2010 Author Posted July 23, 2010 Everyone's experience is different. I've almost never seen gals comment on a guy's muscles. I've seen men talk about it endlessly, like it matters. It's because they're so f'in subtle about it or don't say it out loud...but I'm pretty sure I have seen lingering eyes... I'm going with men keep up muscles for other men. Actually, you're pretty much correct. Fit men tend to be EXTREMELY competitive and the life of a man is practically a giant pissing contest amongst the other men... But you have to understand the simple reason why men feel so compelled to be more in shape than the guy next to him...it's all about competition towards the end goal...but you have to understand what the competition is and what the end goal is...the end goal for a guy is women, while the competition is other men... Fundamentally, a guy will try to make himself as attractive as possible to women...but the way you say that "men keep muscles for other men," although awkwardly worded, is more or less accurate...men "keep muscles" to compete against other men, but at the end of the day, they are just a means to get the women... I will be the first to admit that if I'm walking down the Boardwalk at the beach or something, I find myself looking at other men passing by just as much as I look at the women...(no homo x 2)...because I'm naturally competitive and want to assure myself that I'm still "top dog"... And I notice significantly more looks (and dirty stares...) from men than I do from the women...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 23, 2010 Author Posted July 23, 2010 I meant it as a reference, lol Forgot to attach 'no homo'. You can never be too careful... I agree, when muscular/defined men stop getting so many positive responses from women, then I think it'll become less a priority. I.E. I'm sure most of us have stopped by USMC's shirtless picture thread..what were the responses there? If there's a negative one (on the several pages of women calling him hot), I'd be more than happy to read it. Or are the LS women somehow different from others? All props to you though, hokie, for putting in work lol. No homo. Heheh, thanks Nate, much appreciated. No homo.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 23, 2010 Author Posted July 23, 2010 Exactly, YOU equate it with enhancing attractiveness. So how is "women pressure men to get ripped" accurate then? You admit that even if your girlfriend was perfectly happy with your body that you would still feel inadequate if you weren't ripped. So where's that pressure coming from? You make a good point. I do it for me. It just so happens that some women like it, so it's more of a collateral benefit than the sole purpose of working out. And to be honest, much like zengirl has repeatedly said, this "pressure" to be fit actually comes more from my guy friends who train with me and my own competitiveness to be the best I can be; though it's more motivation than pressure...
AD1980 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Allot of my friends who work out passionately compare thmesvles to other Men and themselves..allot of looking at each others mucles commenting on their physiques,alotta narcisism, alpha male bull****.. Basically lots of latent homosexuality seems to be involved
sweetjasmine Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 You make a good point. I do it for me. It just so happens that some women like it, so it's more of a collateral benefit than the sole purpose of working out. And to be honest, much like zengirl has repeatedly said, this "pressure" to be fit actually comes more from my guy friends who train with me and my own competitiveness to be the best I can be; though it's more motivation than pressure... It's the same for women. The pressure to look a certain way comes more from other women than men, even though both contribute. In my experience, women judge other women's looks more harshly than men do. Likewise, my SO is a lot more aware of how built other men are than I am. It barely registers on my radar, but he'll size a guy up and compare himself. A lot of it is based on what one group thinks the other group finds attractive. Some women are convinced that they need x, y, and z to be attractive to men, and some men are convinced they need a, b, and c to be attractive to women, when in reality, these traits aren't as important as we think they are. Still, in the end, I think women's value is often determined by their physical appearance in a way that men's value isn't. I can't think of a single female politician whose appearance hasn't been dissected and criticized in media and in conversation with regular people, but the same doesn't happen to every single male politician. I see discussions about certain women turn into "well, her [whatever] is too [whatever], but her [whatever] is really hot" even when their looks aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand. And even though the number of males suffering from eating disorders is alarming, the number of females is highly disproportionate. The same goes for plastic surgery. I think it's disingenuous to deny that there's a disparity between the worth society places on female and male beauty.
MrNate Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 You make a good point. I do it for me. It just so happens that some women like it, so it's more of a collateral benefit than the sole purpose of working out. And to be honest, much like zengirl has repeatedly said, this "pressure" to be fit actually comes more from my guy friends who train with me and my own competitiveness to be the best I can be; though it's more motivation than pressure... I stand by this as well. I wouldn't get fit if I was pressured. It wouldn't last. Internal motivation is key. Being healthy and developing some muscle provides 100% benefits for a man, and comes with accessory rewards. I couldn't achieve this if I was skinny, and i have no desire to be so. I view men as protectors, and protectors as strong. To be strong requires some muscle. I don't think men should be weak. Thats just my reality. But as always, this is my sole opinion.
AD1980 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Are some of you those dbags who wear tight Ed Hardy shirts?
Author USMCHokie Posted July 23, 2010 Author Posted July 23, 2010 Are some of you those dbags who wear tight Ed Hardy shirts? Good lord no...
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 And even though the number of males suffering from eating disorders is alarming, the number of females is highly disproportionate. The same goes for plastic surgery. I think it's disingenuous to deny that there's a disparity between the worth society places on female and male beauty. Good points overall! Maybe society places the same worth/pressure on male attractiveness as it does on female attractiveness it just gets a lower response rate from men. Perhaps because of the myriad of other pressures the majority of men can't focus on just one. ? Maybe?
PJKino Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I couldn't achieve this if I was skinny, and i have no desire to be so. I view men as protectors, and protectors as strong. To be strong requires some muscle. I don't think men should be weak. Thats just my reality. But as always, this is my sole opinion. Protection from what? The women who get raped or sexually assaulted usually have it happen to thme when there alone or if there not then the perpetrator more then likely has a weapon which nullifies muscles.
Enchanted Girl Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 (edited) Sure, if it's believed this strongly, then I went and did a little research. It seems the conclusion is that women tend to store it more readily, but they can tone down just as well. Their workouts just have to revolve around more of the aerobic kind, as opposed to weights. So everything still makes sense. Women store it more readily, but cardio proves to be as effective for them as muscle is for men. So now it comes down to playing to strengths. Estrogen may prove to be a slight set back, but I don't think it's some sort of significant one. If someone wants to lose fat= cardio, weights, diet. It can be done, even if women are more prone to store fat. Again, regardless of genetic/hormonal disposition, it all boils down to getting on your feet, and doing work if you want to look good. Being able to tone something down just as well, doesn't mean it's easier. It means that we can do it. We have to work harder to watch what we eat and things because of how easily we can pack back on the pounds. Right now, my boyfriend who never works out weighs less than me and eats twice as much as me. I work out and eat much less than him and it's very hard. We're about the same height and he has no problem understanding how it's harder for me to lose weight than it is for him. He doesn't feel like I'm saying that my life is easier in every way, shape, or form when I say this and he doesn't think I'm saying that it would be easy for him to get muscles if he was trying to. He actually has a really good attitude about it and tells me I am beautiful how I am the way I am. He's actually the one who taught me that women's bodies make fat more easily than men's do. And I strongly agree with this whole post, it's what I've been trying to say from the beginning: It's the same for women. The pressure to look a certain way comes more from other women than men, even though both contribute. In my experience, women judge other women's looks more harshly than men do. Likewise, my SO is a lot more aware of how built other men are than I am. It barely registers on my radar, but he'll size a guy up and compare himself. A lot of it is based on what one group thinks the other group finds attractive. Some women are convinced that they need x, y, and z to be attractive to men, and some men are convinced they need a, b, and c to be attractive to women, when in reality, these traits aren't as important as we think they are. Still, in the end, I think women's value is often determined by their physical appearance in a way that men's value isn't. I can't think of a single female politician whose appearance hasn't been dissected and criticized in media and in conversation with regular people, but the same doesn't happen to every single male politician. I see discussions about certain women turn into "well, her [whatever] is too [whatever], but her [whatever] is really hot" even when their looks aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand. And even though the number of males suffering from eating disorders is alarming, the number of females is highly disproportionate. The same goes for plastic surgery. I think it's disingenuous to deny that there's a disparity between the worth society places on female and male beauty. Edited July 23, 2010 by Enchanted Girl
MrNate Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) Being able to tone something down just as well, doesn't mean it's easier. It means that we can do it. We have to work harder to watch what we eat and things because of how easily we can pack back on the pounds. Right now, my boyfriend who never works out weighs less than me and eats twice as much as me. I work out and eat much less than him and it's very hard. We're about the same height and he has no problem understanding how it's harder for me to lose weight than it is for him. He doesn't feel like I'm saying that my life is easier in every way, shape, or form when I say this and he doesn't think I'm saying that it would be easy for him to get muscles if he was trying to. He actually has a really good attitude about it and tells me I am beautiful how I am the way I am. He's actually the one who taught me that women's bodies make fat more easily than men's do. And I strongly agree with this whole post, it's what I've been trying to say from the beginning: People have it easier than others. As much as I wish I could be ripped and vascular as my friends while eating anything, I can't. It takes more discipline, but it's do-able, so again it comes down to a matter of how much do I actually want to attain that goal? Everyone's genes differ. As far as the rest of that top half of the post, he sounds like a good guy. When it comes to losing fat, becoming more attractive, etc. it all boils down, once again, to doing work...(regardless of hormonal composition or genes) instead of complaining about the hand we've been dealt. I'm sure we have all seen total body transformations from women and men. If obese people can become ripped, then so can most people if they desire to do so. The will of the mind is borderline supernatural. I agree with the stuff you underlined from that post. In the end, men and women face societal pressures. Just because men might not have as much pressure to the degree women do, does not mean men don't or are strolling around with a free pass. They just face it in different aspects, which are no easier/better than trying to get in shape. This is how life has created balance. Edited July 24, 2010 by MrNate
zengirl Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 MrNate, I'm glad you looked up some things earlier, but I still don't think you understand the female weight loss process. Most women have a definite floor. Now, I don't know if most men have a definite ceiling for muscles. But for basic weight maintenance, men definitely have it easier (just staying relatively trim). I don't know how old you are... or where you live, but this is not true at all. For a years I bounced between 6-12% bodyfat... I would get treated VERY differently at those two levels. To put it in terms you can relate to.... it's equivalent to as a woman moving from a size 2 to 12 in how men treat you. I'm basing that on how I see my friends treat the difference. I’m 25. From Florida. Live in Korea. Moving to North Carolina. I have friends in all 3 places -- American, British, Australian, Korean, South African, and Canadian -- who I find universally mock gym rats. Even the ones we like (one of my friends does date a guy, a friend of mine, whose since become a gym rat -- he wasn't when they met --mostly because of pressure from other men he knows and internally). We make fun of Arnold style bodybuilders, but also just gym-rats. You know, those guys who spend more than an hour a day at the gym, drink protein shakes, and think we care about stuff like that. Plenty of women care if a man is fat or not (and a little pudge is more acceptable on a man, as many attractive clothes are more forgiving). And some people might look better at various weights, sure, but my point is women really don't actively dig muscles in general. Sure, some women might like gym rats. But plenty don’t! And plenty even actively avoid dating them. Including cute Size 2 girls like myself, and my awesome, cute friends. So, I'm still going to: Apparently, guys think it makes them attractive, but what’s that got to do with women? You make a good point. I do it for me. It just so happens that some women like it, so it's more of a collateral benefit than the sole purpose of working out. And to be honest, much like zengirl has repeatedly said, this "pressure" to be fit actually comes more from my guy friends who train with me and my own competitiveness to be the best I can be; though it's more motivation than pressure... Yay for honesty.
allina Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 For some unknown reason Russel Brand has his share of female admirers even though he is downright scary looking. I think he's hot not scary looking. Regarding the article, I think both genders receive an even amount of pressure. Women are pushed to be thin, youthful and look like air brushed models without looking like they're trying to hard. For men I think the pressure is slightly different. Men definitely get the pressure about appearance (tall, dark & handsome) but it goes past that. Men are also expected to be tough, masculine providers while not completely lacking a tender loving side. I think these rules and expectations can be tough on both genders.
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