Holiday Planning with a Seperated Person

[2sunny]

I finally caved and called him. No answer, which is the emotional slap in the face that I was hoping to avoid. Predictable. Entirely predictable.

 

It matters not in the scheme of things, but I wonder if he knows how much his avoidance is hurting me, or if he's not thinking of me at all. I lose entire days when I'm upset. Unflattering, but true.

 

your honesty is commendable WS. even if i felt the way you do i'm not so sure i could put my vulnerability out there as you do. it's amazing - and a healthy approach.

 

i don't blame you for calling. if i were you i would have done that much sooner. he's a coward for not answering... plain and simple = coward! coward = not attractive.

 

bottom line here is that he may be great for a lot of reasons... but the hard truth is, it's his way of letting you know that he can't give you what you need for happiness in a relationship for now. he's not completely available. he will be when he's divorced (at least physically). sometimes the emotional healing takes longer.

 

i honestly don't think he's one bit done with his xW yet. he just doesn't have the heart to tell you that. when you ended it last time he was forced to make adjustments to keep you around for a bit longer. he was short sighted when he forgot about the holidays approaching. now he's stuck. he'll probably come back with some outrageous story and ask you to spend "part" of the holiday time with him...

 

you can take that if you intend to set that guideline as a precedence for your future together. if it's not enough - then he will understand that too. at least you are acknowledging his fence sitting.

 

how you handle his fence sitting will tell him what you are willing to put up with in the future.

[wildsoul]

He called me just now. No definitive answer about T-day just yet.

 

In a nutshell, the first thing he said was he was still at their house. Then he explained that he told her he didn't want to spend T-day with her, but that she wouldn't accept that decision and keeps trying to talk him out of it. He said he was unhappy because he ended up yelling at her, because she won't take no for an answer. He says he is trying to get his freedom back gently, but that she isn't going to let him go, so then he fights for it. From the frustrated tone of his voice, I believe him. He lamented that it's harder than he thought, and he can see that even though he's told her about not being there for xmas already, based on last night he thinks that will be an even worse fight between them.

 

I asked if they reached a conclusion yet, and he said no. Apparently she went to work today, is due home soon, and he is going to bring it up again. He reaffirmed that he wants to spend it with me.

 

He said he's going back to his apartment later. I told him that while I know he might not want to rehash their whole discussion with me tonight, that waiting for an answer has been making me anxious. So I told him that I need him to tell me the yes/no of it as soon as possible. The details can wait, but I'm worrying in the meantime. He said he should know by tonight, but that he doesn't want to promise me then cancel. So basically, it's still a wait and see.

 

I feel a tiny bit better in that he called and based on his words & tone of voice, it doesn't at all sound like they are reconciling. So maybe my very worst fear is false. But nothing is resolved. It's still in a holding pattern.

[whichwayisup]

OK, so him visiting her, spending time with her IS making this situation worse, for everyone involved.

 

You have a choice here on how YOU want to handle this - Or atleast your part in the play. Disconnect and detach for a while - Give that some thought. Tell him to GO to Thanksgiving with her and her family, that you are taking control and deciding for yourself. Tell him "We will have next year and many more after that to be together during holidays."

 

Until he is officially divorced, this IS how things are going to be. Unsettling and uncommitted about making future plans.

 

Hope this helps WS.

[norajane]

In a nutshell, the first thing he said was he was still at their house.

 

You mean he stayed there last night?

 

 

What more is there to discuss? They've already had the fight, so what more is there?

 

Is he waiting for her to say, "Ok, go do whatever you want?" He doesn't need that. He can TELL her he wont' be with her on T-day and that's it. She doesn't need to give him permission. She can accept it on Thanksgiving when he doesn't show up.

 

I asked if they reached a conclusion yet, and he said no. Apparently she went to work today, is due home soon, and he is going to bring it up again. He reaffirmed that he wants to spend it with me.

 

THEY haven't reached a conclusion yet. Not him, THEY.

 

I thought she was unemployed?

 

He said he should know by tonight, but that he doesn't want to promise me then cancel. So basically, it's still a wait and see.

 

He can't promise because he might have to cancel? So, she is making the decision, not him.

 

What does she have over him? There are no kids here. Why is he trying so hard to appease her?

[jj33]

WS he sounds like he is having a lot of guilt over this. Otherwise he wouldnt be there still fighting about it.

 

Hes a big boy. He is separated and he makes the decision about where he spends the holidays. It sounds like she is really angry most likely her parens dont know and she doesnt want to have to tell them over Thanksgiving.

 

So instead of just leaving and saying I know you are disappointed but this is my decision he is staying and continuing to fight it out due to his guilt.

[whichwayisup]

It is possible that HE isn't sure now of what he wants? I hate to throw this in the mix, but his reactions and actions are questionable.

 

Usually when a marriage is over, it's OVER. Still, in this situation, something seems amiss.

[tft]

OK, so him visiting her, spending time with her IS making this situation worse, for everyone involved.

 

You have a choice here on how YOU want to handle this - Or atleast your part in the play. Disconnect and detach for a while - Give that some thought. Tell him to GO to Thanksgiving with her and her family, that you are taking control and deciding for yourself. Tell him "We will have next year and many more after that to be together during holidays."

 

Until he is officially divorced, this IS how things are going to be. Unsettling and uncommitted about making future plans.

 

Hope this helps WS.

 

Hey WS, hugs to you. I know completely how you are feeling, and wouldn't wish it on anyone. the not knowing is awful

 

I'm completely with WWIU here. He knows exactly how his behaviour affects you. And he does it anyway. Look out for yourself. I've had 8 months of this, when he comes back after spending time with W with me having heard nothing, no call or texts. I used to be so glad I'd heard from him, that I'd put my anxiety and anger on the back burner. Classic passive agressive. It just gets worse the longer it goes on.

 

You deserve so much more. It really sounds like he doesn't know what he wants. Take the effing power back!

 

(((((WS))))

[norajane]

WS he sounds like he is having a lot of guilt over this. Otherwise he wouldnt be there still fighting about it.

 

Hes a big boy. He is separated and he makes the decision about where he spends the holidays. It sounds like she is really angry most likely her parens dont know and she doesnt want to have to tell them over Thanksgiving.

 

So instead of just leaving and saying I know you are disappointed but this is my decision he is staying and continuing to fight it out due to his guilt.

 

Oh, you may be right about that!

 

If he is holding a lot of guilt about the affair, plus he's not telling his wife where he wants to spend T-day, then he's still lying to her, and that's even more guilt.

 

So he wants to feel better by getting his wife's buy-in and acceptance.

 

It always comes back to him, doesn't it? Forget that it would be more honest if he were straight with his wife, forget that he's hurting ws, he needs absolution for his guilt.

[wildsoul]

OK, so him visiting her, spending time with her IS making this situation worse, for everyone involved.

 

You have a choice here on how YOU want to handle this - Or atleast your part in the play. Disconnect and detach for a while - Give that some thought. Tell him to GO to Thanksgiving with her and her family, that you are taking control and deciding for yourself. Tell him "We will have next year and many more after that to be together during holidays."

 

Until he is officially divorced, this IS how things are going to be. Unsettling and uncommitted about making future plans.

 

Hope this helps WS.

You know and I know that him spending time is making it worse. Hey, but I just thought of something because of what you said. Maybe he needs to find out for himself that it makes it worse. Fair enough.

 

I'm not going to take away T-day now. That doesn't seem right. The only way I will take away T-day is if he tries to split the day or asks to attend the day-after party instead of T-day. (My friends and I have something really fun planned on Friday.) So the days are a package deal. That's the only bottom-line boundary that I'm really sure about.

 

The desired outcome I want at this point is for him to decisively choose T-day with me, be clear with her that they are seperated and not spending the holidays, AND for him to then keep his word. Yet even in that scenario, it's painfully obvious that I have to detach more. Ideally, I'd like to learn to do that w/o having to break up.

[wildsoul]

Oh, you may be right about that!

 

If he is holding a lot of guilt about the affair, plus he's not telling his wife where he wants to spend T-day, then he's still lying to her, and that's even more guilt.

 

So he wants to feel better by getting his wife's buy-in and acceptance.

 

It always comes back to him, doesn't it? Forget that it would be more honest if he were straight with his wife, forget that he's hurting ws, he needs absolution for his guilt.

jj33 and norajane: CORRECT-O-MUNDO! And not just guilt over the affair, but guilt over leaving. She is a good person. He still cares about her. From all reports, their M sounds a lot like the one I just ended. Good friends, great roommates--they are family, but not romantic anymore. In some ways, I think it's harder to leave an "okay" M than a bad one. The decision is murkier. People don't understand the reason. But sometimes it's just dead and time to move on.

 

But the plan about getting his wife's buy-in (you're exactly right; that's what he says all the time) is not likely to work for reasons I've mentioned before. Even if it could, it would be slow. But ooops! He already started his R with me 10-mos ago, so now there is time-pressure coming from me to contend with.

[jj33]

WS I was just writing that - that I dont think his guilt is over the affair but over leaving. Even tho he wants to leave, he feels great guilt.

 

And I bet any amount of money her parents dont know and the fight is over how can you do this to my parents on Thanksgiving? How can you ruin their holidays? And because they were together for so long he still buys in big time to their sensibilities.

 

That is my best guess as to what the fight is about.

[wildsoul]

And I bet any amount of money her parents dont know and the fight is over how can you do this to my parents on Thanksgiving? How can you ruin their holidays? And because they were together for so long he still buys in big time to their sensibilities.

 

That is my best guess as to what the fight is about.

I bet you're on to something. For one thing, I bet the idea of attending T-day dinner w/o her H this year is mortifying! For another, even he thinks she is downplaying the S to them. So while they don't have kids, her parents and siblings reaction to him not coming is big for her. (Hell, I've only been dating him for months, and I don't want to be embarrassed that my BF wouldn't come to T-day with me. She's got 16 years with him.

 

The other reason why I'm sure you are right is that he has a HUGE pain-button about losing his inlaws. His own father is a piece of work, and my guy hardly sees him. But his W's dad and him are very close. He loves her family, and their esteem for him is a big part of his identity too. He even said once that one of the reasons he married his W was that he thought her family was so great. In fact, the only time when I've seen him look sad over leaving his M is when he mentions her parents. His eyes well up a little bit. That's never happened when he speaks of her (though I'm sure he has feelings for her too, don't get me wrong.)

 

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it, but I'm sure you're right!

[jj33]

Thats it. Thats the whole shooting match.

 

And honestly I dont think that makes him a bad guy. Its complicated and he has to come to terms with it but I think that is where the problem lies. Because if it was just between them, then there wouldnt be so much to discuss and you wouldnt stay and fight about it.

[jj33]

Maybe he needs to go see them and talk to them. And tell them how sorry he is. He needs to do something other than hiding... and delaying. But its sensitive. Noone wants to bring pain to their family. And if this is his surrogate family the pain would be even deeper. He found what he was lacking and now he is losing it.

[Die Hard]

No man I know would be having an argument with a woman over where he's going to spend thanksgiving, with a woman he has no love type feelings for anymore.

 

Nobody could stop me, or talk me out of, spending the day with the woman I love.

 

This thread reads like a true affair. Notice how the married man has all the power over how thanksgiving will go down? Classic affair type stuff.

 

My personal opinion is that this guy isn't even sure he wants a divorce and is just out there enjoying the IDEA of being divorced.

 

You should have told him when he called with the news of no news, that his OPPORTUNITY to spend thanksgiving with you has now passed and that his OPPORTUNITY to spend further holidays with you is quickly evaporating. Any normal GIRLFRIEND would not be putting up with this stuff. Only an affair partner would.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

[Lucky_One]

He spent the night with his separated wife at their house?

 

And this is OK with you??????????

 

Do you really believe he spent the night there bc they were fighting? People don't hang out with folks they are fighting with for 24 hours.

[wildsoul]

He spent the night with his separated wife at their house?

 

And this is OK with you??????????

 

Do you really believe he spent the night there bc they were fighting? People don't hang out with folks they are fighting with for 24 hours.

Have you ever been married?

No, let me rephrase that: Have you ever been divorced?

 

Because darlin' those serious discussions with tears, upset, and angry words, alternated with attempts at resolution can go in circles all night.

 

In this particular instance, when I didn't hear from him, I worried that they might be reconciling or something. I still don't know all the facts, but I sure as hell do recognize the voice of someone who's been frustratingly trying to work through an arguement.

 

I don't want to make excuses, but again, since I've been married/divorced I DO understand that the feelings are mixed of fighting and trying to comfort each other. The only difference here is that my guy has already started a new R with me. I loathe being in this position and don't like that I got in it, but at the same time I have to be honest and say that it's perfectly freaking real that he might spend the night after a big talk like that, especially if it ended late and draining.

 

Perhaps my boundaries aren't where they could be, but I think your reply smacks of a perfectionism that doesn't allow for real life. Please, this isn't a swipe when I know you're trying to support me to have boundaries! Thank you. Yet it has a naivetee that makes me think you've never been divorced from someone that you still like as a person.

[whichwayisup]

The only difference here is that my guy has already started a new R with me.

And that's his fault. HE put himself IN this position to choose between you and his wife. He chose you - But his actions certainly aren't showing this. He knows he's pooched this, big time! Still think backing off and allowing him space to work through this without you pushing the holiday situation is the best answer - IF you two ARE going to be together, you'll have many holidays together later. He may want to do this last holiday with her and her family - For his closure. As you said, he's very close to her parents and they I'm sure feel the same way towards him.. It won't be easy, no matter what happens.

[whichwayisup]

but at the same time I have to be honest and say that it's perfectly freaking real that he might spend the night after a big talk like that, especially if it ended late and draining.

 

Maybe if he was single and had no where to go. BUT, the fact is, HE again, made the wrong choice. He didn't think of your feelings in all this. Who cares if she pushed him to stay over, he stayed. He is a grown adult and made a choice, which in turn now has made YOU probably doubt him and wonder 'where did he sleep?' 'Did something happen?'

[wildsoul]

And that's his fault. HE put himself IN this position to choose between you and his wife. He chose you - But his actions certainly aren't showing this. He knows he's pooched this, big time! Still think backing off and allowing him space to work through this without you pushing the holiday situation is the best answer - IF you two ARE going to be together, you'll have many holidays together later. He may want to do this last holiday with her and her family - For his closure. As you said, he's very close to her parents and they I'm sure feel the same way towards him.. It won't be easy, no matter what happens.

Yeppers. That is an option I'm considering. And obviously, he's considering it too! He "prepped" me by saying "This is just the first of decades worth of holidays for us..."

 

Okay, doll...so lets run with your idea. You've always got great thoughts!

 

So lets say he's just NOT ready, even though he wants to be. And let's say I take a big step back and say, "I love you enough to let you go finish up with her, because you're not completely done, and if we keep struggling over this, it's going to kill our R." Then I go stock up on kleenex and try to get on with things.

 

Fine. So now what do you think is best? NC? Light contact? What?

 

And let me put my biggest fear related to this scenario out there too: I would be worried that giving up on 2008 holidays might just open me up for a repeat in 2009. I think he's already been dating me long enuf that this shouldn't be an issue, but clearly--he's not 100% done. So I was thinking it's best to judge based on THIS year, yanno?

[Mino]

And that's his fault. HE put himself IN this position to choose between you and his wife. He chose you - But his actions certainly aren't showing this. He knows he's pooched this, big time! Still think backing off and allowing him space to work through this without you pushing the holiday situation is the best answer - IF you two ARE going to be together, you'll have many holidays together later. He may want to do this last holiday with her and her family - For his closure. As you said, he's very close to her parents and they I'm sure feel the same way towards him.. It won't be easy, no matter what happens.

WS, I think wwisup is right on this one. Its a dinner... not that big of a deal..plus there will be many more. its better to choose your battles, and this one may not be really worth it. Appriciate all he HAS DONE, he has made so much progress, getting his own place and all the changes in his life. Its not an easy road. If he is really that close to the family and they dont know about the seperation yet, because the w may still be keeping it from them, let this one holiday go. Christmas is much more fun anyway!!!

[whichwayisup]

If Spring 2009 rolls around and he is still just separated and not any closer to a divorce, then you end it and walk away. That would just show that HE is unsure of divorcing and starting a new life with you. This isn't about love, this is about what is EASIEST for him. I'm sure he would LOVE to continue an affair with you, and stay married.

 

Worry about next year, next year. Deal with the now, that's more important.

 

Let me ask you this: What if he were in an accident. (maybe something to discuss with him??) WHO would he call? You or his wife? Who would visit him, sit by him in the hospital? Morbid I know, but still, stuff happens in life that is very unexpected..

 

One thing you need to remember, when you two met it WAS an affair. He, back then, was happy enough in his marriage. You knew going in he was married..So, all that changed throughout the A, he chose to leave, then go back, then leave and now he's confused again and doesn't know HOW to deal with this. He doesn't want to hurt you, but he doesn't want to hurt his wife and his extended family.

 

Bottomline - He will do this dance with you for as long as you allow it. Put a deadline on this, you can decide what that date will be, whether it's Spring, or summer or next fall. Just don't BE in this place you're in now, a year from now. That would just plain suck for you.

[whichwayisup]

Christmas is much more fun anyway!!!

 

She has to write off Christmas too unfortunately. I hate to say this, but the way things are going and how slowly he is doing this, it's unlikely he will be available to be with WS at Christmas time.

 

Fine. So now what do you think is best? NC? Light contact? What?

 

1)NO more sex. Cut that off.

2)NO intimacy (kissing etc)

3)Light contact, atleast try that. No point in cutting him off completely UNLESS he reacts badly towards you, then go full on NC.

 

LC means talking by phone and/or email. No more seeing him. If anything, HE will feel that loss and it'll help push him into making a decision.

[Mino]

Yeppers. That is an option I'm considering. And obviously, he's considering it too! He "prepped" me by saying "This is just the first of decades worth of holidays for us..."

 

Okay, doll...so lets run with your idea. You've always got great thoughts!

 

So lets say he's just NOT ready, even though he wants to be. And let's say I take a big step back and say, "I love you enough to let you go finish up with her, because you're not completely done, and if we keep struggling over this, it's going to kill our R." Then I go stock up on kleenex and try to get on with things.

 

Fine. So now what do you think is best? NC? Light contact? What?

 

And let me put my biggest fear related to this scenario out there too: I would be worried that giving up on 2008 holidays might just open me up for a repeat in 2009. I think he's already been dating me long enuf that this shouldn't be an issue, but clearly--he's not 100% done. So I was thinking it's best to judge based on THIS year, yanno?

WS, I am sure 2009 Holidays will be different. By then everything is more settled. At the moment he is still in "process". Even though he has his own place, and he has told his w about a seperation, he is still in the "process. This process has his time table on it. Allow him the time to complete this transistion, even if it is uncombtable for the time being...

[Mino]

She has to write off Christmas too unfortunately. I hate to say this, but the way things are going and how slowly he is doing this, it's unlikely he will be available to be with WS at Christmas time.

 

 

 

1)NO more sex. Cut that off.

2)NO intimacy (kissing etc)

3)Light contact, atleast try that. No point in cutting him off completely UNLESS he reacts badly towards you, then go full on NC.

 

LC means talking by phone and/or email. No more seeing him. If anything, HE will feel that loss and it'll help push him into making a decision.

HUH??? Christmas too???? Why???? He should do his little goodbyes Now, shouldnt he? I mean he cant keep up the "happy family face two holidays in a row.... He should make it very clear to the wife that IF he does spent T day with her family she needs to do her part now and set the family straight... She has plenty of time to do this before Christmas arrives....