Holiday Planning with a Seperated Person

[IfWishesWereHorses]

WS,

 

Its not possible for you to do a "wrong" thing. No one wants to see you get hurt. You make and live with what ever decision you make. Hope you feel better. Really, in the grand scheme of things, its a small thing, no fire, its not like you are rushing out to marry him tomorrow.

[jj33]

Hang in there. Its a tricky situation. I think you are doing exactly the right thing for you. For some people saying if you didnt know in your heart that there was no question but to be with me, then there is nothing to discuss.

 

But that is not you. And if you did that, you would in my view be cutting off your nose to spite your face - saying I am not going to give you a choice to decide what you think is right, going through whatever process you need to go through. I reject your process (even tho you are divorcing and feel great guilt). Its basically I am not going to give you the chance to hurt me I am going to reject you first.

 

Does it expose you to more hurt waiting? Perhaps. But it allows him the freedom to go throught the process he feels he needs to go through at this point in the divorce process.

 

if we are wrong and he is playing games, you will find out soon enough. But to shortcut it and say no if you even have to think about it then I dont want you. I dont think that is fair to someone who is going through a divorce. It is a big process and it is emotional and there are torn feelings and if you choose to be with someone who is going through that, I think you accept that there will be tough times while they sort themselves out.

 

But you are prepared for that. So dont despair you are doing exactly what you need to be doing at this point in time.

 

If he comes through, great. If he doesnt, well then you will need to decide what to do.

 

Big hugs

[jwi71]

I've already said yes. My plans are locked in. When I said 'back up' plan, it was just about having the option to bring him w/ me or not as I see fit.

 

Please everyone, stop making me wrong for waiting to hear what he is going to do. It feels like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Yesterday, you were telling me not to send the letter and to wait and see what his actions are. I'm DOING that. Now you're making me wrong for following your advice. I know you're trying to help, but I don't feel good today as it is. So go easy on me. As it is, I'm trying to prepare for the fact that I'm probably going to have to put the R on hold.

 

Oh...I misread it. My bad.

And good for you!

[wildsoul]

Does it expose you to more hurt waiting? Perhaps. But it allows him the freedom to go throught the process he feels he needs to go through at this point in the divorce process.

 

if we are wrong and he is playing games, you will find out soon enough. But to shortcut it and say no if you even have to think about it then I dont want you. I dont think that is fair to someone who is going through a divorce. It is a big process and it is emotional and there are torn feelings and if you choose to be with someone who is going through that, I think you accept that there will be tough times while they sort themselves out.

Well said. Although I don't like that this question in on the table, at least we are talking about it. If he's struggling on this topic, then I need to know. I don't have to like it (and I don't) but I would still prefer that it's out in the open. After last night's talk, he knows exactly how I feel.

[wildsoul]

Still obsessing over here. Ugh. I think my hormones are contributing to it.

 

I just called my guy and cancelled plans for tonight because I don't feel well today, but told him that I'll see him tomorrow afternoon/night.

 

He asked why, and I told him that I'm not feeling well after our discussion last night. He then said, "But you're the one that wanted to talk about it." And I agreed, saying that I AM glad we're talking about it, but at the same time I don't like that this is even an issue. I don't feel good right now, and want to take some time out for myself.

 

I think I'll have a good cry and take a break. I've got a biz meeting later. Tonight I'll try to do something nurturing. Maybe I'll go for dinner. Something that reminds me I'm single and can do things on my own and be happy by myself.

[2sunny]

good move WS-

 

at least you made a move. now he understands that you really are not ok with what the issue is.

 

the NOT making a move was sending him the message that you will take the crumbs if that is what he is dishing out.

 

go have fun as the single gal that you are. you deserve a break for the sheer fun of it.

[Mino]

I've already said yes. My plans are locked in. When I said 'back up' plan, it was just about having the option to bring him w/ me or not as I see fit.

 

Please everyone, stop making me wrong for waiting to hear what he is going to do. It feels like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Yesterday, you were telling me not to send the letter and to wait and see what his actions are. I'm DOING that. Now you're making me wrong for following your advice. I know you're trying to help, but I don't feel good today as it is. So go easy on me. As it is, I'm trying to prepare for the fact that I'm probably going to have to put the R on hold.

Hi WS... Calm down sweetie.. Its tough I know..But I can tell you the game being played here..its quiete clear. He is saying he wants to spend the holidays with you. and the second day too. But it seems there is always a part two to this sentence and that is this stupid meeting with the wife and how he shure does not want to hurt her.. but in the meantime he really really wants and plans to spend these H with you... What is really happening is this. He is planting his seeds... and that is "honey I really wanted to spend theses H with you..but.... Blah Blah Blah.. This does not make him look so bad, because he has told you all week how much he is looking forward to spending them with you. And at the end of the day, he is not at fault... because he tried. And at the end of the day you are precieved much stronger to handle this dissapointment, cause next year will be different. You have two choices here... Dont make it a big deal...let him go have a miserable day with her. Or put your foot down, or take it away and say you decided ypu have other plans..I say go with the flow, wait till he gives you the plan and his intentions. Then respond accordingly. What ever your gut and heart says , do it...Trying to read between the lines is hard..sometimes we make mistakes...

[norajane]

As it is, I'm trying to prepare for the fact that I'm probably going to have to put the R on hold.

Have you considered trying a different perspective? Instead of thinking of it as putting your relationship on hold, think of it as taking the next step - YOUR next step. It may not have been part of your intentions originally, but it turns out that the necessary next step for YOU in this relationship is to take some time away from him and his separation and divorce.

 

Tell him you really love him and you really want to see him, as much as he wants to spend Thanksgiving with you...

 

...but you're getting too close to his issues with his wife and it doesn't feel comfortable or right, and it's not healthy for you or your relationship.

 

Continue to see him if you must, but his relationship with her needs to get resolved before you will truly feel comfortable. You'll have this same go-round for Christmas. Or something else will trigger it. And it will spin your emotions like this each time.

 

You aren't in competition with his wife. If his heart is with his wife, you wouldn't ever end up with him anyway no matter what. If his heart is with you, he's not going to forget that just because you step back from his separation and divorce, even if it means stepping back from him until he resolves his relationship with his wife.

 

You can step back entirely, or you can step back to just seeing him on a date once a week, or you can keep things as they are. But you are not powerless to look out for your own well-being.

 

In the end, you want to be with a man who wants to be with you. If he's that man, he'll show you.

[wildsoul]

.. This does not make him look so bad, because he has told you all week how much he is looking forward to spending them with you. And at the end of the day, he is not at fault... because he tried. And at the end of the day you are precieved much stronger to handle this dissapointment, cause next year will be different.

Mino, you're so smart. Yes, he was trying to prep me. Maybe another way of saying it (from his perspective) is, "I'm going to try to spend the holidays with you, but if she gets upset over my absence then I'm not going to fight for it." BTW, Mino, he did already say once "This is just the first of decades of holidays for us." So yes, he's been trying to prep me. In any case, the truth about how decisive he is about keeping his committment to me is clear. He's not as committed to spending the holidays with me as he told me he was when I reconciled with him.

[wildsoul]

Have you considered trying a different perspective?

NoraJane, I've only snipped your post for brevity. The entirety was brilliant.

 

:cool::cool:SOLID GOLD, SISTER. SOLID GOLD!!!:cool:

 

Earlier tonight, I was thinking that a more positive way of looking at this is that our R is not yet at the level I thought (or how he presented it either.) This discussion of our holiday plans revealed that gap and the disappointment flattened me, even though the final answer isn't determined.

 

I also realize that objectively speaking, it means that our R needs to take a step, and that this issue needs to be fixed. Yanked out like a rotten tooth is how I put it earlier. Perhaps it can be healed more gently. But as 2sunny mentioned previously, the times in the past when we took the biggest steps were after he made big declarations to me, then I gave him a push that made him follow through. So, as in times past, I need to take a step...and he'll have to decide if he wants to step with me.

 

I like your different levels of stepping back. Seriously, I don't want another breakup. But I am thinking this could be calling for a break or step back. I haven't thought about how that might be done at different levels. For sure, I need to work on getting more detached again. Striking that balance between being committed, but not codependant.

 

Thanks for your post. I'll be re-reading it!

[hollywood3453]

Wow, I feel like copying this same letter and sending it to my seperated man. He's been seperated for 3 years go figure. I understand exactly what you are going through.

 

That letter is well put together and straight to the point!

 

Don't back down now!!!!!!!!!!!

 

My MM just asked me last night to start the proceedings for him because he's tired of her making excuses why and of course he have his too. SO guess what I'm going to get all the info I can and if he utilize it then that's good if he don't I'm walking right away.

 

He really thought I was going to tolerate him spending Thanksgiving with his wife and kids. My point exaclty the kids can come here and we can have one big dinner.

 

Put your foot down because he will always have an excuse. Also know when enough is enough!

 

Good Luck

[whichwayisup]

Only afew steps can be taken in the sense of it meaning something in your relationship right now..After less than 3 months of him separating from his wife, the D HAS to happen for your relationship to progress and blossom into a real relationship and not an affair relationship.

 

Wild, he still isn't a free man. He just isn't..And with that comes along the uncertainity and confusion of what is truly going on.

[Mino]

NoraJane, I've only snipped your post for brevity. The entirety was brilliant.

 

:cool::cool:SOLID GOLD, SISTER. SOLID GOLD!!!:cool:

 

Earlier tonight, I was thinking that a more positive way of looking at this is that our R is not yet at the level I thought (or how he presented it either.) This discussion of our holiday plans revealed that gap and the disappointment flattened me, even though the final answer isn't determined.

 

I also realize that objectively speaking, it means that our R needs to take a step, and that this issue needs to be fixed. Yanked out like a rotten tooth is how I put it earlier. Perhaps it can be healed more gently. But as 2sunny mentioned previously, the times in the past when we took the biggest steps were after he made big declarations to me, then I gave him a push that made him follow through. So, as in times past, I need to take a step...and he'll have to decide if he wants to step with me.

 

I like your different levels of stepping back. Seriously, I don't want another breakup. But I am thinking this could be calling for a break or step back. I haven't thought about how that might be done at different levels. For sure, I need to work on getting more detached again. Striking that balance between being committed, but not codependant.

 

Thanks for your post. I'll be re-reading it!

You know Norjane made an excellent point...I have actually been doing this... taking a huge step back.. i am setting boundries because I am tired of paying the price which is pain..Its actually quiete simple as I learned this in therapy... Its called changing ones belief.. i changed mine... I will not accept the rollercoater anymore... i will not accept the BS... Either he proves himself to be worthy, or I will continue on my new path, which does not include him... Tired of guessing, tired of reading between the lines... tired of feeling powerless, I am taking it ALL back, and until he proves himself to be "healthly, and open. I refuse to take the backseat...I dont have to walk on egg shells any more and neither do you. (much to hard anyway..Pm me I have funny news:lmao::o;)

[frannie]

Hi WS... Calm down sweetie.. Its tough I know..But I can tell you the game being played here..its quiete clear. He is saying he wants to spend the holidays with you. and the second day too. But it seems there is always a part two to this sentence and that is this stupid meeting with the wife and how he shure does not want to hurt her.. but in the meantime he really really wants and plans to spend these H with you... What is really happening is this. He is planting his seeds... and that is "honey I really wanted to spend theses H with you..but.... Blah Blah Blah.. This does not make him look so bad, because he has told you all week how much he is looking forward to spending them with you. And at the end of the day, he is not at fault... because he tried. And at the end of the day you are precieved much stronger to handle this dissapointment, cause next year will be different.

 

Mino, you're so spot on here. HOW often does MM say, "I want to... but..." Trouble is, it's so hard to recognise what's going on. So glad you pointed it out!!

[2sunny]

i agree with the "but" theory.

 

when it's used in a sentence - that is ALWAYS where the contradiction lies.

 

i want to spend the holidays with you BUT.....

 

i want to go to dinner tonight BUT.....

 

i want to spend the weekend with you BUT....

 

always look for the contradiction - it is the truth of what he is trying to tell you. the part BEFORE the BUT is where you are hearing the manipulation and sugar coating.

 

the manipulation and sugar coating part is designed to appear soft and sweet and exactly what you WANT to hear so that when he delivers the TRUTH (the part after the BUT) you will accept the contradiction - the part you don't want to hear. sometimes it is followed up at the end with little tidbits of guilt on his part. the tidbits are just his way of pretending that he gave you "fair warning."

 

like this

 

you are an amazing person - so sweet and gentle and kind, my soul mate in every way and i want to be with you but i am married, you deserve more than that...

 

see what it looks like?

[wildsoul]

i agree with the "but" theory.

:lmao:

OMG, this is an arguement SM and I have all the time.

He agrees with YOU.

I don't.

 

He always says that whatever came before the "but" is cancelled out by whatever comes after. In my way of speaking, that simply isn't true. It's not a contradiction. It's simply revealing a conflict. Sometimes what comes BEFORE the "but" is more important. I try to say, "and" or "yet" instead, but it's hard to change my natural flow to fit someone else's vocabulary sometimes.

 

So be careful of assuming that what is said after the "but" is the greater truth--it might not be.

[2sunny]

:lmao:

OMG, this is an arguement SM and I have all the time.

He agrees with YOU.

I don't.

 

He always says that whatever came before the "but" is cancelled out by whatever comes after. In my way of speaking, that simply isn't true. It's not a contradiction. It's simply revealing a conflict.

 

So be careful of assuming that what is said after the "but" is the greater truth--it might not be.

 

it's not canceled out - it's just a matter of what the truth actually is in the sentence. and where it may lie if it's a cover up.

 

you are getting confused by the manipulation of the sentence structure. also, when the awareness is there - and adjustments are purposefully being made by specific words - then the info will never show as a truth.

 

in the NATURAL flow of conversation it will reveal itself.

 

let's take some non-emotional things we always talk about in daily life as an example instead.

 

i really want to order that filet mignon with the melted blue cheese on top with the garlic mashed potatoes BUT i think i'll order the caesar salad and the dressing on the side.

 

i really want to go to the beach today BUT i have a lot of work to do and should stay home.

 

i really want to go to the concert with you tonight honey BUT i am exhausted after working so hard all week. you go on ahead.

 

i wanted to wear the red skimpy dress when i went to dinner BUT it was a bit tight - so i went with the navy one instead.

 

i need to take my dog for a walk BUT i'm really tired and i'm going to lay down for a bit.

 

see how that work in easy conversation if it's not being manipulated?

 

or this - your own words used:

 

Sometimes what comes BEFORE the "but" is more important. I try to say, "and" or "yet" instead, but it's hard to change my natural flow to fit someone else's vocabulary sometimes.

 

the manipulation is showing... that is why you have to try so hard to choose a different word when you want to cover the actual truth.

 

a paradox really, because you made it clear that when we always try to manipulate it - it's still the truth somewhere in there - we're just trying to sugar coat it in a different way by adjusting the sentence structure itself or by adjusting the chosen words. bottom line... manipulated words = half truths or a cover up may be present. also, the contradiction is still there somewhere and so is the truth.

 

take all the sugary (bs) stuff away from it and it shows the truth.

[Shannon2008]

If nothing else, this site gives some great pointers in psychology of relationships and people, in general. Great tip on the "but" theory.

[wildsoul]

take all the sugary (bs) stuff away from it and it shows the truth.

Again, be careful with that assumption. In many cases, what comes after the but is NOT the truth. We don't all speak the same way.

 

Example:

I love my friend Kate, but I also love my friend Mary.

That doesn't mean I love Mary more.

That would only be true if the part after "but" said something like, "...but I love my friend Mary more."

 

Even in your examples, it's not the word "but" that reveals the truth. It's that the part after the "but" also includes a decisive statement e.g.

 

-i think i'll order the caesar salad

-you go on ahead.

 

However this one is still open:

"...BUT i have a lot of work to do and should stay home."

 

In that example, we still don't know how the decision. We just know the person is considering 2 options. People need to talk through their conflicts all the time. Hell, I'm making that choice today! And the "should stay home and work" part is the lesser truth. I'm probably going to get out. It's a lovely day.

 

So while a "but" does indicate a conflict. The way the sentence ordered doesn't necessarily tell you the greater truth. Not until the person decides for real.

[NoIDidn't]

Hey WS!!!!

 

 

I agree with both but theories. One just takes a more cynical view. Depending on whom I am dealing with determines which theory I apply to the interaction. LOL

 

eg., that dress does not make you look fat, but it isn't flattering still.

[frannie]

"I really want to be with you... but I'm married."

 

= "I'm married, even though I say I want to be with you."

 

One is an action (or inaction ) the other is merely an aspiration. When I noticed MM's constant "wants" that he wasn't following through on I started making him re-phrase everything to exclude them. I don't really care what he 'wants', it's what he's doing (or not doing) that concerns me. When you to that, suddenly, it all becomes a lot clearer and easier to deal with (easier to detach from, in fact).

 

"I want to spend the Holidays with you... but I don't want to hurt my W."

 

= "I'm going to spend the Holidays with her, even though I know it's going to hurt you."

[2sunny]

when he says this he'll be ready to try without the baggage...

 

i was once married but now i'm divorced = i'm available.

 

this is not what he's capable of saying WS - so he's not yet available. thus, you have now set yourself up for the hurt and pain of what happens in between the stage of married and divorced.

 

my divorce (even though it was agreed upon by both of us in the end) took more than two years of sheer hell to be finished.

 

i felt so sorry for the gals my xH dated during that time because he was an emotional wreck - constantly either stuffing his emotions that appeared as anger or irritability or just plain unpleasant to be around. his emotional roller coaster made it impossible to be kind or caring to anyone in his path (including his kids). the guilt of his infidelity got the best of his intentions with anyone around him. he may have loved a few gals he was seeing - but the guilt took away all the possibility of the fun.

 

now, the gal he married after the divorce was final never had to endure the emotions that were present during that time period. she's a nice gal.

 

if you can remove yourself from the relationship now and have the possibility of resuming it after he is divorced then it will save you a lot of heartache and an extended period of confusion emotionally. he will do what he wants to do - whether you are by his side in the meantime or not.

 

good luck honey - it's not an easy position for you.

[torranceshipman]

Yknow....I think you need to pull back and give him a scare. Let him see you cant live like this - no long conversations, no justifications, just a very dignified withdrawal where you tell him he's awesome, that you love him, but that you need a full time guy. Be cool, stay open, act like being friends at this point is good for you (i.e. like your happy with your decision to end it for now, and that life is good!), stay a bit mysterious about your plans...and thats it. You'll become waymore of a prize to him then, and he'll try to make more of an effort (and hey, if he doesnt, he wasnt ever that invested anyway).

 

For some reason, I see red flags that you and the W arent the only ones, but I could be 100% off base on that-but I think its kinda clear however you look at it, that he lies a lot to you and the W and he isnt being fair. I mean, logically it makes no sense that he'd cheat on his W this long, but then cant tear himself away from her on big vacations, and can't even make up his mind on the spot to tell everyone where he'll be, when clearly he knows he's really hurting the feelings of 2 women by stalling. Perhaps he is secretly hoping she'll ask him to come back and is leaving the window open. Look at it this way too - all of a sudden, you're not the exciting prize as he's in the position of having to make a regular commitment to you after an exciting A - but the W, well, all of a sudden she's not the boring everyday R that he took for granted-all of a sudden she's a challenge again and maybe he really likes it. Hes certainly not used to it, and I think he wants to be the main man in her life again...

 

I really think you taking control would make you feel SO much better about all this...

[2sunny]

the fact that he moved half way between you and his W makes me wonder about something. well, red flag anyway.

 

if it were me - i'd tell him right away you're going out of town on business or need to travel to see a family member... then take a few days off work and follow him around for a few days and evenings. take binoculars and keep a journal.

 

see what he does, where he goes and who he's with. you'll have your answer about a few things nonetheless.

 

i'm sure he figures that if you're generally living an hour away (his W as well) from him - you won't just drop by or be able to check up on him. it makes me wonder about his time spent when he's not with you. find out.

[jj33]

2 sunny I hope you were kidding... WS if any of that even sounds remotely like a good idea to you, then you need to break up with the guy because your trust level is too low for comfort.

 

Taking days off from work to play amateur PI regarding someone who you are dating?Life is too short IMHO. If hes lying it will come out. If WS doesnt trust him she will get out. If you have to resort to that, the relationship is over already.

 

Hang in there. We havent heard from you so its possible that this has already played itself out on the holiday issue. I hope its good news.