Holiday Planning with a Seperated Person

[2sunny]

Gotcha. Thanks for the background explanation.

 

I think everyone's situation is a little different by the choices along the way. For example, in my guy's case, he wants to split up but she absolutely doesn't. He moved out 2.5 months ago, but it wasn't really a mutual decision.

 

As for my own story (which didn't include an A by either me or my x) we did therapy to help us exit well. I moved out very slowly, and didn't start dating until we mutually agreed that we would D. Like you, it had ALL been said.

 

Still, I'm finding out that my guy's S/D isn't as far along as I thought. I think he undersestimated it for himself too.

 

I understand all this, but the bottom line still remains the same... what are you going to do about this? you can choose to do something - or you can choose to do nothing. even if he doesn't spend T-Day with you - it doesn't mean that you have sent him a message that you are NOT ok with the situation and the latest revelations.

 

that you're continuing to justify and explain his position and bad behavior indicates that you plan to do nothing. it also helps him to believe that he can make less effort for your relationship and you will take the crumbs he's giving you.

 

the nothing part will allow things to remain exactly as they are... can you handle that? are you prepared emotionally for the heartache that will bring?

 

please clarify WS or tell me if i'm wrong in my assessment.

 

also, did he call tonight or even later this afternoon to let you know what the outcome was... or did he decide to stay with her another night to "talk it out further"?

 

if i had ONE shred of feeling that he may have stayed the night again - i'd get in the car and go find out what's really going on at her house. i'd knock on the door and find out from both of them!

 

he's making me mad! he could at least call and give you some peace of mind by letting you understand what's really happening. NOOOOO, he makes you wait and wait - knowing how uncomfortable you are - he still disregards you with his inability to be decent towards you in this situation. he doesn't care how you feel - it's all about HIM!

[whichwayisup]

in my guy's case, he wants to split up but she absolutely doesn't. He moved out 2.5 months ago, but it wasn't really a mutual decision.

 

If you weren't in the picture, would he still be thinking of leaving her and getting a divorce? And if that is the case, then leaving is harder (obviously) than he thought it would be.

 

She doesn't want to let him go, and 16+ years together, she more than likely IS going to fight for him, UNLESS he comes clean and tells her "I'm inlove with someone else." It is possible that talking to her has confused him more and brought up feelings that he may have buried for her since meeting you.

 

He doesn't want to be the bad guy in her eyes and also in his inlaw's eyes. He doesn't want to hurt her more than he has to, yet in the midst of this you are hurt and he certainly doesn't seem to mind being the bad guy at times in your eyes. (Hense his moods and past freaky behaviour which made you scared of him.)

 

I've copied and pasted this part again, because this IS something that should be discussed with him, just incase..

 

Let me ask you this: What if he were in an accident. (maybe something to discuss with him??) WHO would he call? You or his wife? Who would visit him, sit by him in the hospital? Morbid I know, but still, stuff happens in life that is very unexpected..

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Given the hell you've dealt and worked through just to be able to enjoy Christmas once more, what are you sacrificing for a chance for hollidays together with him this year? What are you sacrificing for a chance for a life together with him.

 

YOU did all that emotional work surrounding the abondonment of your father only to gamble it away? Your progress was YOURS, YOU will have to protect that. I've heard that we repeat the same mistakes trying to fix old circumstances. I've seen it more times than I can count in a neice that was abondoned and neglected by her mother.

 

From my own experience it would be harder to be away from my family (extended) at Christmas time than Thanksgiving even though they were all very special days in my family growing up.

 

Given the fact that he KNOWS how difficult Christmas is for you, he is being abusive in my estimation by not being up front with you. NOT that I think he doesn't want to be with you but.... in his mind I guess, you will be there no matter what while he works through all of this.

 

WHEN DOES THIS END??? You giving up what you need ... so he can be comfortable. Does it end the day he officially divorces??? NO, this is a cycle, that YOU have allowed and YOU will always be expected to give up for him. That is not love. This is when boundaries come into place. We all want to give to the ones we love. Its a way that we show love. The fine line comes when we are giving to the point where it is detrimental to our own happiness.

 

I agree with WWIU, step back with very LC. Let him know that you will reevaluate when the time comes that he is divorced. Tell him you love him, and want to be there for him, but the constant push and pull is unhealthy for you, and you're going to have to put yourself first right now since obviously you have no control over his situation, you cannot allow it to control YOUR life at the moment.

 

The one other thing I would like to point out is that from what you have posted about him, he has not stuck around when things got "hot". He's stormed out, avoided, ect... I truly don't believe that he stuck around for an evening of unhappiness, then waited around for it to continue.

He's telling both of you what you want to hear, he has been for a long time. When does that end?

[GreenEyedLady]

Given the hell you've dealt and worked through just to be able to enjoy Christmas once more, what are you sacrificing for a chance for hollidays together with him this year? What are you sacrificing for a chance for a life together with him.

 

YOU did all that emotional work surrounding the abondonment of your father only to gamble it away? Your progress was YOURS, YOU will have to protect that. I've heard that we repeat the same mistakes trying to fix old circumstances. I've seen it more times than I can count in a neice that was abondoned and neglected by her mother.

 

From my own experience it would be harder to be away from my family (extended) at Christmas time than Thanksgiving even though they were all very special days in my family growing up.

 

Given the fact that he KNOWS how difficult Christmas is for you, he is being abusive in my estimation by not being up front with you. NOT that I think he doesn't want to be with you but.... in his mind I guess, you will be there no matter what while he works through all of this.

 

WHEN DOES THIS END??? You giving up what you need ... so he can be comfortable. Does it end the day he officially divorces??? NO, this is a cycle, that YOU have allowed and YOU will always be expected to give up for him. That is not love. This is when boundaries come into place. We all want to give to the ones we love. Its a way that we show love. The fine line comes when we are giving to the point where it is detrimental to our own happiness.

 

I agree with WWIU, step back with very LC. Let him know that you will reevaluate when the time comes that he is divorced. Tell him you love him, and want to be there for him, but the constant push and pull is unhealthy for you, and you're going to have to put yourself first right now since obviously you have no control over his situation, you cannot allow it to control YOUR life at the moment.

 

The one other thing I would like to point out is that from what you have posted about him, he has not stuck around when things got "hot". He's stormed out, avoided, ect... I truly don't believe that he stuck around for an evening of unhappiness, then waited around for it to continue.

He's telling both of you what you want to hear, he has been for a long time. When does that end?

 

This is a most excellent post!

 

Please read this again WS...

[wildsoul]

This is a most excellent post!

 

Please read this again WS...

Thanks for replying GEL. Yes, it is a gem of a post.

 

I'm really not feeling well because I'm unhappy with how he's treating me. Basically, he emotionally abandoned me.

 

Unsurprisingly, he didn't call last night, which means--you guessed it, he stayed another night. He called me this afternoon and left a very matter of fact message saying he was home at his apartment now. He said he was tired. He got temporary custody of the dog. And that's ALL. No sweetness or kind words. Flat.

 

I called him back a couple hours later. Same tone of voice. NOT usual at all. I ask how he is and was met with a repeat of the voicemail message. I grew quiet, noticing how he didn't ask about ME. After a long silence, I asked him why he was being so distant. Then he responded with the stupidest word game, "I'm not distant. I'm in (his new city) so I'm actually closer to you." (I feel like chopping his head off as I recant his flaming a-holeness.) I said, "Not your geographical distance. Why are you so cold?" Then he said he needed to get off the phone because he'd had a hard couple of days and needed to recover himself.

 

I'm alternating between feeling absolutly desolate, but my anger is kicking in now too.

 

In a nutshell, I think he is being coldhearted and cruel. I think the reason is that he needs to tell me that he will be with his W for the holiday. I have a strong suspicion that perhaps they had sex (btw, he promised to be monogamous to me) and if so, he is feeling guilty. It might also be that they are reconciling or that he told her that anyways.

• So my guess is that he is going to try to piss me off enough that I will break up with him, so he won't have to admit the truth.
  
• Or perhaps he will try to get me to blow my stack, and if I don't leave him, then he'll make that the reason he's going to break up with me, instead of admitting that he broke his promises to me.
  

Look, we all know that he has this issue with guilt where he doesn't want to be the "bad guy" with her. So although I would like to think that he and I have a better level of honesty (yeah, I know...ALL of us OP think that) odds are that he's going to play this out with me, just like he does her.

 

I still don't know exactly what I want to do next. My way is to gather different ideas, sort them out by seeing what feels "right," to my core, then do it without hesitation once I know. I'm not 100% in my certainty yet. Still exploring options.

 

Gotta say though that part of me wants to be vengeful right now. IF he's passive agressively trying to set me up in one of those above scenarios, I'm tempted to fight like hell not to play along.

 

Another part of me wants to kick his ass to the curb right now for my own reasons, yet I don't want him to "win" by not having to come clean.

 

Another part of me, a rapidly diminishing part, thinks that maybe it will be different when I talk to him. But I think that is some kind of denial at this point. Besides, even IF he was really beat to crap by the talks with his W, then it still doesn't make sense that he would be so cold to me.

 

Ugh. I have that deep deep deep kind of despair welling up with me. The kind that feels like you'll never survive the pain. I'm scared of the hurt that looks like is coming.

[GreenEyedLady]

If you even THINK he's going to do one of the above, he's not WORTHY of you.

 

You were somebody before you met him and you'll be somebody when it's over. YOU choose who you will be.

 

End it in a way befitting of you. You don't wait for HIM to decide. Who is he? Why is he the one with all the decisions and the women in his life have to wait for him to decide what he's going to do. Make the decision for him. Don't call him, don't talk to him.

 

He's not acting like your partner, he's acting like your captor.

 

Be YOU. Then no matter what happens, YOU WIN.

 

(((Big hugs)))

 

I know it's hard. But this hurt will continue as long as you let it.

 

GEL

[2sunny]

take control WS - call the W!!!!! i don't usually recommend this, but it's the best choice for both of you women.

 

he won't give you the truth (coward) so go to her. sure, it may hurt all involved - but at this point you should be done with him anyway... and talking with her will allow you the honest truth about what REALLY has been going on.

 

i'm sure you will find that he has been playing both of you the whole time. i'm sure he slept with her - heck, he even waited around all day long for her to get off work so he could consider it again.

 

i'd kick him to the curb so fast his head would spin! and i wouldn't be one bit nice about the $hitty way he's been to you... she has a right to know what he's been up to as well... that way she can make a decision based upon the truth of the situation - just as you should.

 

WHY would you still want him? he's treated you like dirt the past few days and had a chance to be decent as soon as he was home - he doesn't even have that in him! he's still dishing you the trash of all this and expecting you to still play the role of "happy, sexy girlfriend" he's a dork!

[norajane]

I called him back a couple hours later. Same tone of voice. NOT usual at all. I ask how he is and was met with a repeat of the voicemail message. I grew quiet, noticing how he didn't ask about ME. After a long silence, I asked him why he was being so distant. Then he responded with the stupidest word game, "I'm not distant. I'm in (his new city) so I'm actually closer to you." (I feel like chopping his head off as I recant his flaming a-holeness.) I said, "Not your geographical distance. Why are you so cold?" Then he said he needed to get off the phone because he'd had a hard couple of days and needed to recover himself.

"I'm not distant..."

 

I would have wanted to reach through the phone and smack him. Blatant conflict avoidance, and in such an infuriating manner!

 

This is not something you need to be around right now. WS, he's still married and apparently has a long way to go before this separation leads to a divorce. Let him go until he's not married and can really be the man in your life, if you still want him then.

 

If, in the end, he can't end his marriage, at least you won't have been around for months of this kind of run-around. And if he does end his marriage, you'll be better off if you can start anew after being apart, instead of having been mired so deeply in his separation process the whole time that you've grown to resent him so much you can't stand him anymore.

 

HE's the one going through a separation and divorce. Why are YOU the one suffering through it? You don't have to.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I disagree with 2sunny WS. I say take a while and don't call or answer his calls. Do NOT call his wife. Everyone here wants whats best for you. I have a male friend who corresponds with me about any female relationship he has. He will say, I told her this or I've never said this.... my response is... women believe what they WANT to believe... nothing you have said was absolute.

 

Men often don't put themselves there. Why??? Because there is something they want.

 

I know you don't take in to consideration many of the BS's points of view because you think they don't want a happy ending for the OW. As a BS I believe 100% that his wife is better off without him. I also believe that you are a sensitive,insightful woman who deserves better than this.

 

I will tell you as someone who had beginnings in psych and ended up in neurological ICU, that I have researched ad nauseum, an attraction that would cause some intelligent person to forego an intelligent thought/reason in a situation. I stumbled upon limmerance but still don't completely understand (biochemically) how someone will forgo rational thought for feelings. This was a very personal undertaking, by the way. It boils down to something undetermined or unexamined, nontheless anyway you slice it.

 

In this situation, I would say don't call his wife. He's given you more information than you could ask for by his actions. NONE of this is about YOU or her. It is about HIM. What many people, BS and WS and their families fail to take into account is midlife crisis. I've heard theories that it does not exist. BS!!!!! Lived it myself. It is an incredibly confusing time for men especially. Doesn't alliviate its signifacance nor its path of distruction. I'm not saying that there is nothing inherantly good about him, but anyone reading your posts can say that at this time, he is poison for you.

 

YOU give such incredible advice to OP, OW, who are in your same situation. I read your posts and think, GOOD GOD, why can't you see that in your own situation. Unfortuantely (not so much that I would ever succumb to it) I do understand it.

 

HONEY, you deserve better. You posted on smiles thread.... great advice... but I'm thinking as a read it... physician heal thy self.

 

I wish you all the best.... only because I think you deserve it. As I say to my kids ad nauseum.... I WANT better for you.

[Ms. Red]

 

 

 

YOU give such incredible advice to OP, OW, who are in your same situation. I read your posts and think, GOOD GOD, why can't you see that in your own situation.

 

I was thinking this exact thought earlier today when I came across your advice to other ppl. It's soooo clear to us from the outside.

 

I read your very first post here on LS today. You don't sound any more advanced in this R than you were back in July. You are in the exact same place now that you were back then. Nothing has changed that I can see.

 

I do wish the best things for you and my vibes are that you will not get them from this man at this point. I wish you valued yourself more & stood up for yourself more than you do now. I believe that you will wake up one day & something inside will just **snap** & you will be fed up & think clearly & know what to do.

 

I wish you well. =^-^=

[wildsoul]

I know you don't take in to consideration many of the BS's points of view because you think they don't want a happy ending for the OW. As a BS I believe 100% that his wife is better off without him. I also believe that you are a sensitive,insightful woman who deserves better than this.

(((IWWH))) Thank you!

 

I was surprised to read that you don't think I take in the BS's pov's. Nothing could be farther from the truth! But perhaps you read the replies I made to 2 posters here, asking point blank if they had an agenda rooted in their experiene as BS. Please let me clarify that I very much appreciate the BS's here. If anything, I relate more to some of you than I do to some of the OP stories. Very well then.

 

No, I'm not calling his W. There's just no way I could do that and have it be "clean." If ever she contacts me, then I would speak to her honestly. It has occurred to me that perhaps I should tell him to put her and I in touch so I can hear from her that their M is over, but really--too much drama. I can't say that it wouldn't be rife with unconscious motives on all of our parts.

 

Oh, for real, I think I'm over my head in this situation. People tell me I'm wise. My job is centered around that trait. Yet, being IN a situation is always different. One of the reasons that LS is so amazing is that it provides such a great mirroring. I'm well aware that sometimes the advice one gives here is the advice one can follow. That's the beauty of it.

 

Thank you again!

[wildsoul]

I read your very first post here on LS today. You don't sound any more advanced in this R than you were back in July. You are in the exact same place now that you were back then. Nothing has changed that I can see.

 

I do wish the best things for you and my vibes are that you will not get them from this man at this point. I wish you valued yourself more & stood up for yourself more than you do now. I believe that you will wake up one day & something inside will just **snap** & you will be fed up & think clearly & know what to do.

Thank you, Ms. Red! Like I said to IWWH, thanks for holding up the mirror.

 

Hmmm...without re-reading my 1st post (although I have looked back before as if reading a journal) I can tell you that this week has felt a lot like last July. Back then, things were going very well for us, but then it seemed like we weren't as far along as I thought, so I broke up with him. I don't know what you mean by, "You don't sound any more advanced in this R than you were back in July. You are in the exact same place now that you were back then. Nothing has changed that I can see." I'm curious as to what you're measuring. Not being defensive, I'm genuinely curious as to what you see.

 

As to your point about valuing and standing up for myself more, I've been looking at it too (of course.) One factor is that this guy gives a lot of love and affection to me, most of which you don't see as this is mostly a forum for problem-solving. So there is a lot of good progress and support I've experienced that isn't all posted here. HOWEVER, I think that one of the underlying reasons why I cling to that so much is that everything else in my life is really hard right now. Economics are the biggest factor, yet coming out of a divorce and not having hardly any family make me more vulnerable than usual. It sounds pathetic, but my R has been the one thing keeping me going this year. Yet I also have to wonder that if my other circumstances were safe and stable if things would be different. I speculate that I'd be a LOT less worried about his drama and less afraid of the loss of the R.

[OWoman]

I think everyone's situation is a little different by the choices along the way. For example, in my guy's case, he wants to split up but she absolutely doesn't. He moved out 2.5 months ago, but it wasn't really a mutual decision.

 

Here too. BW clung like crazy, and tried everything to get him to return. And while he remained resolute about the split, he was at times eaten up with concern about her, and whether she'd be OK.

 

Still, I'm finding out that my guy's S/D isn't as far along as I thought. I think he undersestimated it for himself too.

 

If his W doesn't want the split, it's not going to be a smooth and quick process - emotionally, if not legally too.

[norajane]

HOWEVER, I think that one of the underlying reasons why I cling to that so much is that everything else in my life is really hard right now. Economics are the biggest factor, yet coming out of a divorce and not having hardly any family make me more vulnerable than usual. It sounds pathetic, but my R has been the one thing keeping me going this year. Yet I also have to wonder that if my other circumstances were safe and stable if things would be different. I speculate that I'd be a LOT less worried about his drama and less afraid of the loss of the R.

 

Maybe he's really a transition guy for you, and not so much the love of your life? Maybe taking a break from him and seeing that you really don't need him as much as you think you do would help.

[whichwayisup]

The fear you have of losing him and the pain it brings along probably isn't as bad as it would actually be. Don't you think it would be easier in the long run to not have to deal with the doubts, wondering if and when he's going to change his mind, go back home to his wife? Atleast you'd have something final - A starting point to start healing. As things are now, few weeks things are great then the next few weeks, things suck.

 

I agree with NJ, take a break for YOURSELF. Use this time to see how your life is without him in it. No need to go into details with him, you TELL him that he has to respect your wishes now when it comes to having space. You call the shots, not him.

[frannie]

I asked if they reached a conclusion yet, and he said no. ... I told him that while I know he might not want to rehash their whole discussion with me tonight, that waiting for an answer has been making me anxious. So I told him that I need him to tell me the yes/no of it as soon as possible. The details can wait, but I'm worrying in the meantime. He said he should know by tonight, but that he doesn't want to promise me then cancel. So basically, it's still a wait and see.

 

... he has a HUGE pain-button about losing his inlaws. His own father is a piece of work, and my guy hardly sees him. But his W's dad and him are very close. He loves her family, and their esteem for him is a big part of his identity too. He even said once that one of the reasons he married his W was that he thought her family was so great.

 

YOU did all that emotional work surrounding the abondonment of your father only to gamble it away? Your progress was YOURS, YOU will have to protect that.

 

Given the fact that he KNOWS how difficult Christmas is for you, he is being abusive in my estimation by not being up front with you. NOT that I think he doesn't want to be with you but.... in his mind I guess, you will be there no matter what while he works through all of this.

 

... he didn't call last night, which means--you guessed it, he stayed another night. He called me this afternoon and left a very matter of fact message saying he was home at his apartment now. He said he was tired. ... I asked him why he was being so distant. Then he responded with the stupidest word game, "I'm not distant. I'm in (his new city) so I'm actually closer to you."

 

This is completely maddening to read about, I can only imagine how it feels to be in it. OK, so he doesn't want to hurt her, and he fears the loss of his in-laws. That's all understandable, if only he'd stop being so CRUEL to you in the process. He knows how much the waiting is killing you, and he continues to come back with 'no resolution'. Not only that, but his callous, smartass comment about 'not being distant'.

 

I'm sorry, but I can sympathise with his position, and maybe he's not as far along as he thought he was and all this, but there's just no excuse for his nasty way of treating you at all. He didn't even ask how you were. He's more concerned with his DOG than he is with you. AND he knows what you've been through in the past with the Christmas abandonment. Is he a fool, or does he just not care? Is there anyone reading that 'distance' comment and not wanting to commit an act of violence on the man? Sorry, trying to be calm here.

 

The one other thing I would like to point out is that from what you have posted about him, he has not stuck around when things got "hot". He's stormed out, avoided, ect... I truly don't believe that he stuck around for an evening of unhappiness, then waited around for it to continue.

He's telling both of you what you want to hear, he has been for a long time. When does that end?

 

This ^^^ is a seriously important point. From everything you've said in the past, he does not handle conflict well. And yet he's been round there for days and nights supposedly going round and round in arguments? I sincerely find that hard to believe. More likely she's pulling out all the stops to get him to stay, and we know what that means...

 

 

... In a nutshell, I think he is being coldhearted and cruel. I think the reason is that he needs to tell me that he will be with his W for the holiday. I have a strong suspicion that perhaps they had sex (btw, he promised to be monogamous to me) and if so, he is feeling guilty. It might also be that they are reconciling or that he told her that anyways.

 

I think your gut is right on the money, unfortunately. And I agree with those who have said you need to pull back here. You are in a great deal of emotional danger. You cannot possibly let him 'abandon' you at Christmas, you have far, far too much hard-won progress to lose. And from the sounds of things, and the way he's been acting, you cannot afford to trust him with your emotional well-being. Not at the moment, anyway. He's just not ready.

[jj33]

Hey WS. U have gotten such good advice I have nothing profound to add but... if it helps at all the fact that someone isnt ready doesnt mean that they dont care for you or have deep feelings. It just means that they arent in a place to communicate in a way that works or to treat you in the manner you deserve.

 

Am not excusing him, just saying I think you had to play this out. It was a road you started on and you had to see it through. But I would not play it out any longer.

 

I had a similar situation with MM when we were together. He was being funny about a holiday. And it was just before my Bday. I ended it. I couldnt live with the possiblity that he would not do anything for my birthday. He sent me a card even tho we were not together but at the time I thought the writing is on the wall, am not going to sit here and take a risk with my birthday.

 

Sadly I let him back again a few weeks later... but Xmas is too important to you. And you are in a different place. He isnt ready for the plans he claims to be making with his future talk.

 

He needs time on his own so that he can get to a place where his actions match his words.

 

Big hugs I know this is hard stuff

[jwi71]

I'll go further wild. You need to walk from him period.

 

Maybe this helps.

 

Right after I discovered my wife's A, I was resolute in what must be done. I threw her out that night, called my lawyer for divorce attorney reference and made all the right steps. I knew exactly what I wanted. I truly had no doubts or second thoughts.

 

Until we had signed the papers and Tom said he would file shortly. I could see her face. Then I had doubts. Big, large 800 lbs gorilla doubts. She had been calling and asking, begging really, to save the marriage. I had always said "no". Until then. I asked Tom to stop and agreed to MC. After all, I can always file...but I cannot "unfile".

 

He will have these doubts. Until he chooses. He doubts leaving. He doubts staying.

He doubts her. He doubts you. If he knew...he would be resolute in his path. Like I was. Until I saw her crying in my lawyers office.

 

Kinda like he does, every time he goes home.

 

You're suffering. Stop turning the wheel.

[StartingOver07]

Hi WS. I hope it is ok to post in your thread. I have been reading your story for a long time but have never commented.

 

What strikes me most is that you are such a good partner -- caring, understanding, truly trying to give your guy what he needs. You seem like a smart, together woman -- someone who has put in the time and energy to figure out who she is and what she needs (and what she needs to work on).

 

Sadly, I am not seeing this in your guy. And I don't think it is just situational.

 

I think that excusing his behavior because he doesn't want to hurt his wife is wrong on many levels. First and foremost it is wrong for you, and you are every bit as important in this triangle as anyone else. But, more telling, it is wrong for his W, too, as it fosters hope that will be dashed in the end. In fact, the only way it is not just as wrong for his W as for you is if her hopes will not be dashed in the end. The bottom line is that the only person who can possibly benefit -- now or later -- from what your guy is doing is... your guy. His options are kept open while you and his W are both on tenterhooks, wondering what his next move will be. One of you is going to be very hurt. He know this and his current actions only make it more certain and more horrible.

 

I'd been reserving judgment, not so much because the answer was unclear to me but because I have been hoping against hope for your sake that a different answer would be revealed. But it hasn't been. Staying the night -- two nights! -- is truly the last straw.

 

FWIW, I have been married and I have been an OW. I do not say any of this to hurt you. I wish I could conjure for you a man worthy of all the good qualities you so obviously have. This guy just isn't it.

[tft]

 

Unsurprisingly, he didn't call last night, which means--you guessed it, he stayed another night. He called me this afternoon and left a very matter of fact message saying he was home at his apartment now. He said he was tired. He got temporary custody of the dog. And that's ALL. No sweetness or kind words. Flat.

 

I called him back a couple hours later. Same tone of voice. NOT usual at all. I ask how he is and was met with a repeat of the voicemail message. I grew quiet, noticing how he didn't ask about ME. After a long silence, I asked him why he was being so distant. Then he responded with the stupidest word game, "I'm not distant. I'm in (his new city) so I'm actually closer to you." (I feel like chopping his head off as I recant his flaming a-holeness.) I said, "Not your geographical distance. Why are you so cold?" Then he said he needed to get off the phone because he'd had a hard couple of days and needed to recover himself.

 

Honey, I feel your pain. My guy did exactly, I mean EXACTLY the same thing, around 5 months in. We were supposed to be going out one Fri. He called her the night before, and cancelled on me the Fri morning. Told me he needed to go and sort stuff out with her, then would see me Sat (said he's probably end up staying friday night). Sat, phone off. All day, all night. Sun, phone off. I was going crazy. Then, a text Sun afternoon-"too tired to talk more, will see you tomorrow". Wouldn't answer his phone. Came around the Mon, told me he was unsure of what he wanted, was still very affectionate and told me he loved me, left, then he didn't go to work or answer his phone for a week. It was AWFUL. My housemate, who was with me through it, can't believe how similar your situation is to mine. She told me I deserved better, he was avoiding conflict that he was sending mixed signals etc but I made a number of excuses for him. He never really told me what they talked about (selling house was part of it) I was paranoid something had happend, that he tried to get her back, he denied it. We got back together a week later, I felt I needed him.

 

The following 3 months were both OK and terrible. More of the same, closeness and distance. I got in his email, and found he'd gone out of his was to try and win her back during that time.

 

WS, it doesn't get any easier. Believe me. I finally ended things 11 days ago, and I feel SOOO much better for it. I'm back in control now. I wish I'd done it earlier. Even if he comes back to me now, I have too much resentment for how he treated me, for not telling me the truth. For sleeping with me whilst trying to win her back. I do understand its incredibly hard for him, but the way he went about it with me was awful. Keeping me hanging on.

 

As other posters have said, don't make excuses for him.

 

If you can, look at it objectively. What would you say if someone was doing this to your friend? My housemate, my best friend, tried telling me but I wouldn't listen. There would have been less heartache if I had.

 

Best of luck to you. Stay strong.

 

The other side really isn't that bad

 

xxxx

[wildsoul]

Soooo many valuable replies here. Thank you to everyone! I'm going to do a quick global check in rather than try to address all your points individually. However, I do want to say that I'm deeply touched by the outpouring of support from everyone, especially all the "lurkers" who have also spoken up. I really feel cared for.

 

I'm getting more and more clear. I've not yet reached that internal moment when I know exactly what I'm going to DO. I can feel that is solidfying though. I'm not ready to type it all out just yet, but basically I'm defining my boundaries right now. Then I will decide if I want to try getting those met by talking about it with him, or decide if it's too futile to try. Since we've already discussed these clearly, I'm thinking it's more a matter of me taking a time out to keep my boundaries. I'm not sure if I want to give him another chance right now. I don't know yet.

 

I did have a nice long talk with a GF last night, one who knows him a little bit. She's known me for 24 years. She was encouraging me to stop putting the whole R on the line, and to JUST focus on T-day. (She's the one who also invited me to stay the night after the family dinner, and spend the next day with her & her GF.) She was intuiting that he's just more torn than the thought he'd be, and to still give him a chance to show up for me. There's some wisdom in taking the pressure off it, and just looking at this current holiday. We joked that I can always break up with him later.

 

I called him afterwards and he was in a better frame of mind. He explained that he was really worn out earlier because he left his W that day in a way that he didn't feel good about. He said it had been a hard 2 days. When we spoke of T-day, he said that "Maybe I should spend it alone, because otherwise I've got 2 women mad at me." I agreed, "Yes, maybe you should. That actually makes sense for your first holiday after the separation." But still, it seemed more like a self-pity comment than anything else. So I said, "But that doesn't make sense that you'd spend it alone because we'd both be mad at you. If you chose to spend it with me, then I'd be happy. You'd just have one of us mad, and that's unavoidable in this situation." (Duh!)

 

Then he explained that part of the problem is that he knows I need a definitive answer and that he doesn't have one for me yet. So he knows I'm upset about that. He also thinks that if he came with me that he'd be in a bad mood because of feeling so torn and that might ruin the day for me too. Inwardly, I was thinking that I still might take away the invitation, but since I haven't fully decided, I extended a joke and an olive branch.

 

I told him that I'm not inviting him to visit the gas chamber, I'm inviting him to go have some fun with my family and friends. LOL, sheesh. And that of course I already understand he might have some mixed feelings that day. I even offered the idea that he might spend the day w/ me, but at some point put a call into her parents to wish them well. I know they are his family, and even if he is no longer in their immediate circle, he might want to send his greetings. My plan is to have some fun and try to have a good holiday, whether he is with me or not. By then, he's softened up a lot and said that it really might be the best thing for him.

 

Yeah, I know that I worked at it last night. Sometimes the person with the greater capacity for mending things needs to extend themselves more. But at the same time, I'm seriously evaluating. A little bit off-balance is one thing, but I don't feel that I'm getting back what I'm giving when it comes to conflict resolution. He's amazing at giving to me when things are good. Sometimes he gives more. But I don't feel that he is stepping up to give me what I need in terms of kindness, reassurance, and clear communication over the difficult topics. I'm all bent out of shape over his drama, doing too much of the work, and it's bringing me down.

[Cheesecake]

Hi WS - I'm another lurker. I think someone mentioned it earlier, but you really do need distance from him right now. It may be temporary or it may for good. But this way you give him space to figure out what he wants and work out all his emotional drama, and you can focus on what you need to focus on - yourself. Is it hard? Yes. But it gets easier - and like someone else mentioned, you get such a sense of control that it is so worth it. But you have to be strong. You have to be strong enough for the both of you. He really needs to sort out his head. I'm sure that he is very much in love with you, but 16 years is a long time and a lot of baggage to sort through. 10 months is not even 1/16th of that time, right? Just stop trying to control things, and just let them happen. You don't want him having resentment towards you either for "breaking up his marriage". He has to do it because he's ready and because he wants to.

 

By the way, people keep mentioning this book and I also highly recommend it "How to Survive Your Boyfriends Divorce" by Robyn Todd. Excellent read with excellent advice.

[wildsoul]

By the way, people keep mentioning this book and I also highly recommend it "How to Survive Your Boyfriends Divorce" by Robyn Todd. Excellent read with excellent advice.

Thanks for chiming in.

And YES that's a helpful book. I use mine quite a bit.

 

In fact, I tried to follow her guidance a bit when I decided what to do today. Another member here also sent me a PM that was the tipping point to my decision as well. A lot of you might think I did it wrong, but for me, this is what finally felt right:

 

I sent him a short email that cuminated in asking for decision by tomorrow night.

 

I told him I didn't like all the pressure built up on this, and said that I only want him to say yes if he really wants to be by my side and it feels right.

 

I also told him that I don't want him to say yes out of guilt over hurting me, or fear that I'm going to break up with him over it. I said, "I'm taking those 2 things OFF the table."

 

He needs to let me know by tomorrow night, so I can get on with looking forward to the parties next week, whether he's going w/ me or not.

 

==> The key to why this was right for me is that I'm taking a stand for myself. I make a point of phrasing things in the positive, and didn't put threats or coerscion in there. Here are my internal reasons:

1. I want a definite answer. No more maybe or pins/needles waiting.
   
2. I only want him if it's because he loves me and is ready. Only for the right reasons. I don't want anything less!
   
3. If he's not up for it, then I don't want to have him get closer to my family/friends anyway.
   
4. Making T-day something worth breaking up over is EXACTLY the kind of drama that would truly be a repeat of my past. It's way too much pressure, and NO I don't want to remember this T-day as the holiday when I broke up with him. So nope, I'm not going to recreate the past by threatening a break up right now.
   

I still have the power to do a time-out. Depending on how this goes, I still have the power to do a break-up if I want to. I only promised not to break up with him over his decision. So I'm not losing any power by giving him one last chance to decide before I take the invitation away.

[Cheesecake]

WS, I think that sounds like an absolutely wonderful plan - the best one I've heard yet. You sound like you're in a much better place now. Keep up the good work!

[Ms. Red]

Thank you, Ms. Red! Like I said to IWWH, thanks for holding up the mirror.

 

I don't know what you mean by, "You don't sound any more advanced in this R than you were back in July. You are in the exact same place now that you were back then. Nothing has changed that I can see." I'm curious as to what you're measuring. Not being defensive, I'm genuinely curious as to what you see.

 

 

You stated your bounderies to continue the R & then gave in when he didn't follow through. You're still doing that. Also, your emotions & mood revolved around his mood & temperament. He was mad, you were sad & upset. He calls up later with sweet talk & you were happy. You're still doing that.

 

I'm getting more and more clear. I've not yet reached that internal moment when I know exactly what I'm going to DO. I can feel that is solidfying though. I'm not ready to type it all out just yet, but basically I'm defining my boundaries right now. Then I will decide if I want to try getting those met by talking about it with him, or decide if it's too futile to try. Since we've already discussed these clearly, I'm thinking it's more a matter of me taking a time out to keep my boundaries. I'm not sure if I want to give him another chance right now. I don't know yet.

 

See above comments.

 

He's amazing at giving to me when things are good. Sometimes he gives more.

 

The majority of the time, he DOES treat me like a princess. We have so much love and affection. He's really amazing and wonderfully expressive. He can be uncanny in how well he reads me and makes clear efforts to please and appreciate me. When we're together, he gives me lots of praise and validation. In so many ways, he's the perfect man for me. When it's good, I think I want to spend my life with him.

 

My BF I lived with in my 20's & knew since I was 13 years old made me feel the same way.........when he wasn't hitting me, kicking me, throwing the sizzling contents from a skillet at me.......etc. Get it? Does the good make up for the bad treatment when it is bad? Especially when your in the beginning of your R like you. This is supposed to be the best time of your R.

 

 

 

Not related but I just can't get over this bull$hit he pulled on you:

May: I discovered he was also trying to date other women online, while he was professing his eternal love for me. He dismissed it as internet flirting. I broke it off again.

 

I hope I typed that all ok. I've had a very hectic day & I'm exhausted. I just wanted to check in on you. As always, Ms. Red wishes you well. =^-^=