Perspective

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Another lie (I’m not sure if you’re lying to us or to yourself). Distinctly remember when you met your ex’s friends it was like a whole new world opened up to you of happy couples. 
 

My guess is your parents had a bad marriage. I’ve noticed through the years that some folks whose parents had toxic marriage believe all relationships are bad. Just some couples are better at hiding it than others…

It also tells me his life must be really awful if he would choose the stress of emotional abuse in a toxic relationship over being peacefully single.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

It also tells me his life must be really awful if he would choose the stress of emotional abuse in a toxic relationship over being peacefully single.

Believe me doing everything on your own having nobody to share things with, nobody to listen to is not a fantastic way to live. Obviously I would not want a toxic relationship.

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Believe me doing everything on your own having nobody to share things with, nobody to listen to is not a fantastic way to live. Obviously I would not want a toxic relationship.

Fix that first, then worry about a relationship. Hopping into something because you're lonely is a terrible motivation

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Fix that first, then worry about a relationship. Hopping into something because you're lonely is a terrible motivation

Its motivation nonetheless. What I am likely to do is one of these friend zone situations, there is some positive for me in that, in that some of the time I have someone to take out to social events and suchlike. I wont lie in the somewhat sham relationship I had for a few months the thing I enjoyed most was the shared experiences, someone to connect with after a difficult, someone to listen to. Sometimes I wonder if this approach is the wrong one to take and simply doomed to be friend zone.

I have never really bought into the ONS idea, purely because I simply do not have the level of flirting  and charisma to actually get me to that point, never mind a lack of physical attraction. You are right I tend to take a very logic view of this.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Another lie (I’m not sure if you’re lying to us or to yourself). Distinctly remember when you met your ex’s friends it was like a whole new world opened up to you of happy couples. 
 

My guess is your parents had a bad marriage. I’ve noticed through the years that some folks whose parents had toxic marriage believe all relationships are bad. Just some couples are better at hiding it than others…

I met her friends once and did not enjoy that experience at all because there was no common ground, if anything I think that dinner was where things started to fall apart. I think relationships are fundamentally problematic so if I am going to go down that road I want to be very specific as to what I am looking for especially from a personality lifestyle point of view because there needs to be some compatibility. This latest interest she has come out of a 7 year relationship and we have actually spoken about relationships so the conversation is quite wide ranging which I like.

What this thread has done is make me have a look and maybe try again, this has its own risks because my judgement is quite poor. Another thing this thread has done is made me delete dating apps for good.

[FredEire]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its motivation nonetheless. What I am likely to do is one of these friend zone situations, there is some positive for me in that, in that some of the time I have someone to take out to social events and suchlike. I wont lie in the somewhat sham relationship I had for a few months the thing I enjoyed most was the shared experiences, someone to connect with after a difficult, someone to listen to. Sometimes I wonder if this approach is the wrong one to take and simply doomed to be friend zone.

I have never really bought into the ONS idea, purely because I simply do not have the level of flirting  and charisma to actually get me to that point, never mind a lack of physical attraction. You are right I tend to take a very logic view of this.

Ugh why not just be friends instead of "friend zone". Not every relationship with a woman has to be driven by sex or a lack thereof, you can just genuinely enjoy their company full stop. I realised in my early 20s that things like the "friend zone" was driven by men dehumanising women as they didn't have any success, thereby distancing themselves emotionally and making any sort of relationship even less likely.

You need to me making more friends, male and female, and filling your life up. Once you do a lot of this agonising will seem like the nonsense it is.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

Ugh why not just be friends instead of "friend zone". Not every relationship with a woman has to be driven by sex or a lack thereof, you can just genuinely enjoy their company full stop. I realised in my early 20s that things like the "friend zone" was driven by men dehumanising women as they didn't have any success, thereby distancing themselves emotionally and making any sort of relationship even less likely.

You need to me making more friends, male and female, and filling your life up. Once you do a lot of this agonising will seem like the nonsense it is.

My life is very full, again the appeal of this person is her life is also very full so there would be some compatibility. The problem with being friends I'd want more than that because as having been down this road before its not pleasant to try fit in with some bf. 

Bold is 100% true and I speak from experience though to be fair I tend to distance myself emotionally from most people, life is less complicated that way. Fundamentally I think any chance I would have is rendered close to zero because of the fact she has plenty of options and I do not rank very high up on that list, yes I can dazzle around a dinner table and in a crowd and she seemed to enjoy being around someone who could wade into conversations with some very accomplished people and the conversation flowed. I can find mega levels of confidence there but emotively it all falls flat.

All I want is to get this right just once. 

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My life is very full, again the appeal of this person is her life is also very full so there would be some compatibility. The problem with being friends I'd want more than that because as having been down this road before its not pleasant to try fit in with some bf. 

Bold is 100% true and I speak from experience though to be fair I tend to distance myself emotionally from most people, life is less complicated that way. Fundamentally I think any chance I would have is rendered close to zero because of the fact she has plenty of options and I do not rank very high up on that list, yes I can dazzle around a dinner table and in a crowd and she seemed to enjoy being around someone who could wade into conversations with some very accomplished people and the conversation flowed. I can find mega levels of confidence there but emotively it all falls flat.

All I want is to get this right just once. 

You've said you don't meet people and do everything all the time all alone, sounds completely empty to me.

It seems a bit like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. A high flying hotshot who was completely alone and whose life was in reality a waking nightmare.

You seem to be full of completely contradictions, it makes me wonder how much of what you say is actually true.

Edited March 25 by FredEire

[Wiseman2]

These threads are like whac-a-mole. No matter what invented dilemma the thread poses as it always ends up in another incels pity party. 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

These threads are like whac-a-mole. No matter what invented dilemma the thread poses as it always ends up in another incels pity party. 

Yep, I for one have said my piece. It's up to OP if he actually wants to take any advice or continue in the same cycle.

[Foxhall]

On 3/24/2024 at 4:48 PM, ZA Dater said:

Mostly to be honest I am fundamentally inferior to the people I find attractive,

Im not sure you really think that- otherwise you would not keep going to the dinner parties and you would never leave the house,

your confidence has taken a few knocks along the way- but I dont think you have the same mindset as a guy who accepts he has no chance at all of achieving the dream,

you are probably harder on yourself than you need to be but that likely comes from being a high achiever.

I suppose I look at things myself-ultimately I have not (yet) being able to land the woman I truly want- so in that sense I am not qualified to give you any concrete advice,

being the nearly man is not where we want to be.

but I think you have a few chapters to write yet.

 

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

All I want is to get this right just once. 

With the caveat that you don’t actually have to change anything. Work on yourself. Change your mindset. Change your behaviors. And so on. 
 

ZAdater: I can’t get this right!

Loveshack: Try this, or this, or this.

ZAdater: No. 

ZAdater: Why can’t I get this right!!! Ugh!

[Gebidozo]

47 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

With the caveat that you don’t actually have to change anything. Work on yourself. Change your mindset. Change your behaviors. And so on. 
 

ZAdater: I can’t get this right!

Loveshack: Try this, or this, or this.

ZAdater: No. 

ZAdater: Why can’t I get this right!!! Ugh!

He doesn’t want to change because he is firmly entrenched in the rigid tenets of incel ideology. Incels believe that women must love them as they are, because deep down they feel every single man is somehow entitled to “have” a woman for himself.

It’s some sort of a psychological figment inherited from the collapsing patriarchy: if I can’t “get” a woman, then I’m a lower caste person, a pariah, not a real man, an object of ridicule and contempt.

And changing “for a woman” would be “humiliating”, because women are supposed to love me just because I’m a man, and doubly so because I’m so incredibly “nice” that I don’t even get drunk and beat women every night, like those horrible “alphas” whom they dare love instead of me.

[BaileyB]

6 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

These threads are like whac-a-mole. No matter what invented dilemma the thread poses as it always ends up in another incels pity party. 

It is whac-a-mole - it starts out with a complaint that ZA can’t find an attractive woman. When that point is disputed, the conversation shifts to - “I guess I’m just not enough to attract the beautiful women.” Dispute that point and it shifts to - “I’ve got confidence and I can talk to anyone, I just haven’t found a woman who can carry a conversation/is interesting to me…” Offer some suggestions, and it shifts to - “the women are only attracted to the confident, sophisticated men who can flirt and make them laugh…” Debate that point, and we digress to “the whole world is stacked against me! I will just never get what I want!” Remind ZA that people everywhere manage to find partners and enjoy healthy, happy relationships… and, we circle back to “but I just don’t find anyone attractive.” 

Whac-a-mole. This whole thread, like every other, shifts from one complaint to another. A point is made, and we digress to another point of discussion… around and around we go. 

[FredEire]

6 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It is whac-a-mole - it starts out with a complaint that ZA can’t find an attractive woman. When that point is disputed, the conversation shifts to - “I guess I’m just not enough to attract the beautiful women.” Dispute that point and it shifts to - “I’ve got confidence and I can talk to anyone, I just haven’t found a woman who can carry a conversation/is interesting to me…” Offer some suggestions, and it shifts to - “the women are only attracted to the confident, sophisticated men who can flirt and make them laugh…” Debate that point, and we digress to “the whole world is stacked against me! I will just never get what I want!” Remind ZA that people everywhere manage to find partners and enjoy healthy, happy relationships… and, we circle back to “but I just don’t find anyone attractive.” 

Whac-a-mole. This whole thread, like every other, shifts from one complaint to another. A point is made, and we digress to another point of discussion… around and around we go. 

Yes absolutely.

It reminds me of a friend I had who had a very similar mindset, he just couldn't get any interest from women and was absolutely convinced it was because these women wouldn't cut a nice guy a break.

I watched him fall in love every 5 minutes with a different girl, who he'd inevitably have a very bland conversation with with the desperation and try-hard written all over his face, and would get very passive aggressive when he invariably struck out again, moaning about how beautiful and special she was and how unfair it was he couldn't get any interest.

When I pointed out that he'd felt the same way about a different girl two days ago, and that being completely obsessed and thinking only about how to get women who were "out of his league" wouldn't do him any favours, his response would always be "yeah man I see your point" but then he'd invariably circle back and double down on "this girl is different bro" and "they just don't want a nice guy like me bro".

It's like the entire mindset is a comfort blanket, a ready made excuse as to why they are failing in love so they don't have to actually change because they are aware subconsciously of the large amount of work they have to do, they can just talk about how hard they struggle and the futility of it all.

[basil67]

9 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It is whac-a-mole - it starts out with a complaint that ZA can’t find an attractive woman. When that point is disputed, the conversation shifts to - “I guess I’m just not enough to attract the beautiful women.” Dispute that point and it shifts to - “I’ve got confidence and I can talk to anyone, I just haven’t found a woman who can carry a conversation/is interesting to me…” Offer some suggestions, and it shifts to - “the women are only attracted to the confident, sophisticated men who can flirt and make them laugh…” Debate that point, and we digress to “the whole world is stacked against me! I will just never get what I want!” Remind ZA that people everywhere manage to find partners and enjoy healthy, happy relationships… and, we circle back to “but I just don’t find anyone attractive.” 

Whac-a-mole. This whole thread, like every other, shifts from one complaint to another. A point is made, and we digress to another point of discussion… around and around we go. 

And we now have over 7000 posts of the same whac-a-mole

 

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Im not sure you really think that- otherwise you would not keep going to the dinner parties and you would never leave the house,

your confidence has taken a few knocks along the way- but I dont think you have the same mindset as a guy who accepts he has no chance at all of achieving the dream,

you are probably harder on yourself than you need to be but that likely comes from being a high achiever.

I suppose I look at things myself-ultimately I have not (yet) being able to land the woman I truly want- so in that sense I am not qualified to give you any concrete advice,

being the nearly man is not where we want to be.

but I think you have a few chapters to write yet.

 

There is a difference here, conversationally I can be very confident, world affair, economics, politics, history, sport etc. Small talk is not easy but I can do it. Where I am inferior is in attraction, being able to talk does not make someone attractive, physically I am not attractive, if I were I'd get matches on OLD which are actually of a similar body type to me. Ultimately I am defeated because even if I could date this lady I am very attracted to, it would probably fall apart quite quickly.

Ironically I am writing a novel, over fifty thousand words later its shaping up very nicely and its my vicarious project. 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

He doesn’t want to change because he is firmly entrenched in the rigid tenets of incel ideology. Incels believe that women must love them as they are, because deep down they feel every single man is somehow entitled to “have” a woman for himself.

It’s some sort of a psychological figment inherited from the collapsing patriarchy: if I can’t “get” a woman, then I’m a lower caste person, a pariah, not a real man, an object of ridicule and contempt.

And changing “for a woman” would be “humiliating”, because women are supposed to love me just because I’m a man, and doubly so because I’m so incredibly “nice” that I don’t even get drunk and beat women every night, like those horrible “alphas” whom they dare love instead of me.

Change to what? I am quite happy with the person I am, happy with my morals, happy with my view on life. I am not physically attractive but that is what is so I am really not sure what changes you are talking about, if its adopting the "that will do, well you know maybe look at people you do not find attractive, they could be very nice" is the change you mean, then no, I am not doing that change and will never make that change because I fundamentally disagree with it. Likewise dropping my own preferences.

Nobody is entitled to anything, I have been kicked in the face to know you get what you either fight for or through a combination of luck and hard work, probably more the former than the latter but that is another discussion. Guess, what I get teased often for being single.

Change to what exactly?  

[Weezy1973]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

…physically I am not attractive, if I were I'd get matches on OLD which are actually of a similar body type to me.

This is a strange belief to hold. Granted I’ve only seen one photo but I’d say from your description you’re pretty average looking. Average face, average height, slim but not athletic body type. Average. 
 

You’re not at all interested in average looking women. Therefore no matches! What a shocker. 
 

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

…even if I could date this lady I am very attracted to, it would probably fall apart quite quickly.

True. Unless you sort out your self worth / confidence / self esteem issues, even if you do date a pedastalized woman you fantasize about, it’s not going to cure those core issues. In fact those insecurities will come back 10 fold and any hopes of a healthy relationship will be gone.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, BaileyB said:

IRemind ZA that people everywhere manage to find partners and enjoy healthy, happy relationships… and, we circle back to “but I just don’t find anyone attractive.” 

I am sure they do, though divorce statistics make me wonder. There are plenty of people I find attractive, none find me attractive so what seems to be advocated is "beggars cant be choosers" which is rubbish, how many people simple settled and why did they settle? 

Why should I settle for someone I date just because well nobody else is interested? Why should I compromise like that and frankly why would anyone compromise like that? 

if anything this thread had proven my point correct, its impossible to put yourself in someone else's shoes when it comes to dating, what one person finds attractive another finds unattractive etc. Some apparently have to do endless 'work" whatever they may while others just rock and up have their pick of the room, oh and nobody knows exactly what that work is besides the fact superficial qualities are irrelevant. Ok.

Thanks.

[FredEire]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Change to what? I am quite happy with the person I am, happy with my morals, happy with my view on life. I am not physically attractive but that is what is so I am really not sure what changes you are talking about, if its adopting the "that will do, well you know maybe look at people you do not find attractive, they could be very nice" is the change you mean, then no, I am not doing that change and will never make that change because I fundamentally disagree with it. Likewise dropping my own preferences.

Nobody is entitled to anything, I have been kicked in the face to know you get what you either fight for or through a combination of luck and hard work, probably more the former than the latter but that is another discussion. Guess, what I get teased often for being single.

Change to what exactly?  

You are not happy with yourself, that is patently clear. If that were the case you wouldn't put beautiful women on a pedestal or look at yourself as a piece of dirt when it comes to dating. I haven't seen any pictures of you but it seems many others here have and say you are a pretty average looking guy, yet you continually refer to yourself as some sort of Quasimodo. This suggests the problem is not objectively how attractive you are but rather how you judge yourself.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is a strange belief to hold. Granted I’ve only seen one photo but I’d say from your description you’re pretty average looking. Average face, average height, slim but not athletic body type. Average. 
 

You’re not at all interested in average looking women. Therefore no matches! What a shocker. 
 

True. Unless you sort out your self worth / confidence / self esteem issues, even if you do date a pedastalized woman you fantasize about, it’s not going to cure those core issues. In fact those insecurities will come back 10 fold and any hopes of a healthy relationship will be gone.

Thanks but I am capable of having a relationship, that much I know so I cant be completely useless. Nobody should ever aspire to average and I feel sorry those who approach eac day with the view average is enough, at least feel like you excel in something and carry that confidence. I am simply ugly, flip I can live with that, your well versed  'aspirational dating works really well, in my mind I can aspire to whatever I want but I must remember to never try because well there goes those ugly genes.

Actually dating did cure a lot of those issues, most in fact because it felt good to have someone interested in me, granted I was not physically interested in her but that is another story. It felt good to not be constantly judged for being single.

 

[FredEire]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks but I am capable of having a relationship, that much I know so I cant be completely useless. Nobody should ever aspire to average and I feel sorry those who approach eac day with the view average is enough, at least feel like you excel in something and carry that confidence. I am simply ugly, flip I can live with that, your well versed  'aspirational dating works really well, in my mind I can aspire to whatever I want but I must remember to never try because well there goes those ugly genes.

Actually dating did cure a lot of those issues, most in fact because it felt good to have someone interested in me, granted I was not physically interested in her but that is another story. It felt good to not be constantly judged for being single.

 

Good lord. Pages and pages of discussion and what you arrive at is "I must remember to never try because there goes those ugly genes".

I do agree most people date within their "league", but much of that is down to confidence and fear of rejection, most of all when it's men seeking women.

There are plenty of mismatch couples though despite this, it happens. And when it does it comes down to confidence and not being restricted by your insecurities.

In contrast you seem in love with your insecurities and feel obliged to worship them as some sort of objective truth.

Edited March 26 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

Just now, FredEire said:

You are not happy with yourself, that is patently clear. If that were the case you wouldn't put beautiful women on a pedestal or look at yourself as a piece of dirt when it comes to dating. I haven't seen any pictures of you but it seems many others here have and say you are a pretty average looking guy, yet you continually refer to yourself as some sort of Quasimodo. This suggests the problem is not objectively how attractive you are but rather how you judge yourself.

Nah look I have been on sites for 10 year + and if I were attractive I'd get attractive matches, instead I do not so its clear my level of attraction is very low, I can think whatever I want of myself but honestly its nonsense when taken against objective evidence. I am happy that I can wade into any conversation, debate anyone and if required show up apathy. 

There is enough evidence to suggest dating works on ones perceived value in the market, some men love large bust ladies and attribute high value to them some love petite ladies and attribute more value, its all subjective. We all have our likes. I wish all success and would never advocate people date people they do not find attractive. 

People I find attractive not because of one attribute but because of many, this current lady might be tall but she is super smart, super confident, well spoken, well set in life and is genuinely interesting. 

All is not lost I get to spend time with her sporadically because as ever business and life intermix.

 

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Nah look I have been on sites for 10 year + and if I were attractive I'd get attractive matches, instead I do not so its clear my level of attraction is very low, I can think whatever I want of myself but honestly its nonsense when taken against objective evidence. I am happy that I can wade into any conversation, debate anyone and if required show up apathy. 

There is enough evidence to suggest dating works on ones perceived value in the market, some men love large bust ladies and attribute high value to them some love petite ladies and attribute more value, its all subjective. We all have our likes. I wish all success and would never advocate people date people they do not find attractive. 

People I find attractive not because of one attribute but because of many, this current lady might be tall but she is super smart, super confident, well spoken, well set in life and is genuinely interesting. 

All is not lost I get to spend time with her sporadically because as ever business and life intermix.

 

You could be on here 100 years, it doesn't matter if all the advice you read goes in one ear and out the other.

There are so many debaters who are socially inept when it comes to real life discussion. Successful dating isn't just turn up be a hunk and talk the woman to death. Listening is far more important.

I think this all comes down to the fact that you are too stubborn to even consider that some of your assertions about yourself could be wrong, dead wrong in fact. There's so many people suggesting here that there may be many other things you need to work on other than your physical appearance, but you seem convinced that nope I'm great at all those things I'm just not handsome enough.

They say the definition of madness is banging your head off the wall over and over again and expecting a different result. It isn't and wasn't working by your own admission, so why not take a step back and consider that all your firmly held beliefs may be flawed?

I suspect the answer is because it's too uncomfortable and has too many implications for your ego and psyche.

Edited March 26 by FredEire