Perspective

[Gebidozo]

23 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The market has deemed me unattractive, I can think whatever I want of myself, its irrelevant the market decides who is attractive and who is not. Its strange you advocate for "there are lots of miss matched couples and yet post this? 

No thanks.

Exactly, the market has deemed you unattractive, therefore you should be with an equally unattractive woman. You don’t get to have a tall, slim, fun, charismatic sex bomb. Go and look for a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl. The market has ruled that is what you deserve, that is your level. It’s all fair. Why are you complaining? 

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Exactly, the market has deemed you unattractive, therefore you should be with an equally unattractive woman. You don’t get to have a tall, slim, fun, charismatic sex bomb. Go and look for a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl. The market has ruled that is what you deserve, that is your level. It’s all fair. Why are you complaining? 

Or instead of this shadowy "the market", he has decided this for himself, he's made his bed and has to lie in it because he's accepted he doesn't have any agency in the matter.

The thing is even a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl is dreaming of meeting a man who, while he may not be Brad Pitt, at least has a pair of cojones and a lust for life. So he's not even going to live up to that at the moment.

[Gebidozo]

17 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Or instead of this shadowy "the market", he has decided this for himself, he's made his bed and has to lie in it because he's accepted he doesn't have any agency in the matter.

The thing is even a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl is dreaming of meeting a man who, while he may not be Brad Pitt, at least has a pair of cojones and a lust for life. So he's not even going to live up to that at the moment.

Exactly, that’s what I’m driving at. Just trying to reason with him using his own logic… let’s see if that works🤫

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Exactly, the market has deemed you unattractive, therefore you should be with an equally unattractive woman. You don’t get to have a tall, slim, fun, charismatic sex bomb. Go and look for a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl. The market has ruled that is what you deserve, that is your level. It’s all fair. Why are you complaining? 

Life is not fair but you know this.

 

[ZA Dater]

25 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Or instead of this shadowy "the market", he has decided this for himself, he's made his bed and has to lie in it because he's accepted he doesn't have any agency in the matter.

The thing is even a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl is dreaming of meeting a man who, while he may not be Brad Pitt, at least has a pair of cojones and a lust for life. So he's not even going to live up to that at the moment.

Which is fine because someone like that does not interest me so its perfectly fine. What I have basically done is remove myself from the dating market, nothing really wrong with that. There is some degree of agency , every time I go on a date its grand sell of some as to why she would want to spend time with me (I do not do this but I know people who do with a mix of mumbo jumbo and half truths), though mostly this sell is very one sided, cant say many of the dates I have been on have given me good reason to want to see them again.

Never said I was intellectually unexciting, nor did I say I was not assertive as for a lust for life, that is frankly a ridiculous concept best kept in romance novels.

You are right I get to choose, accept what I can get or accept that is not what I want, try different things (maybe some of that mumbo jumbo) and see if the prospects improve but that would assume I can find prospects which in terms of OLD seems impossible.

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Exactly, that’s what I’m driving at. Just trying to reason with him using his own logic… let’s see if that works🤫

I think he's more likely to agree with it as it aligns with his views.

I think the thread frustrates me a little as I see a bit of myself in my younger years in it. I used to see myself as different and virtuous for agreeing with a lot of PUA ideas, a rebel raging against the masses of stupid people who just didn't "get" my deepness.

I would cling on to these ideas for dear life, and kept engaging in self-destructive thinking patterns and lifestyle habits believing if I just kept doing the same thing over and over eventually I could "get it right" and things would click into place.

It took me a while to realise that it was all just a comfort blanket to protect me from suffering and the implications of potential success, I was safe living in my own head.

To get out of that hole you first have to consider that maybe your beliefs aren't all they're cracked up to be and maybe you need to re-assess everything, a thought that can be truly terrifying if you've based everything around them.

Edited March 28 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

53 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think he's more likely to agree with it as it aligns with his views.

I think the thread frustrates me a little as I see a bit of myself in my younger years in it. I used to see myself as different and virtuous for agreeing with a lot of PUA ideas, a rebel raging against the masses of stupid people who just didn't "get" my deepness.

I would cling on to these ideas for dear life, and kept engaging in self-destructive thinking patterns and lifestyle habits believing if I just kept doing the same thing over and over eventually I could "get it right" and things would click into place.

It took me a while to realise that it was all just a comfort blanket to protect me from suffering and the implications of potential success, I was safe living in my own head.

To get out of that hole you first have to consider that maybe your beliefs aren't all they're cracked up to be and maybe you need to re-assess everything, a thought that can be truly terrifying if you've based everything around them.

What did you re assess and why? 

Did you ever ask yourself why you arrived at those beliefs and what experiences shaped those beliefs? You right I have a very definite dating outcome in mind, heck I'd have liked to have the family set up but that is clearly not possible and I have to live with that.

All I'd like is mutual attraction just once, she does not need to date me, heck she does not even need to sleep with me but just spend time with me.

 

 

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What did you re assess and why? 

Did you ever ask yourself why you arrived at those beliefs and what experiences shaped those beliefs? You right I have a very definite dating outcome in mind, heck I'd have liked to have the family set up but that is clearly not possible and I have to live with that.

All I'd like is mutual attraction just once, she does not need to date me, heck she does not even need to sleep with me but just spend time with me.

 

 

I reassessed how I view women and how I view relationships. I reassessed how much people's opinions of me matters, not just women but everyone around me. I reassessed my difficulties with dating and why I may be having them, the fears around it that were possibly inhibiting positive change. I reassessed how much importance dating should have in my life, and how much importance I should give a rejection from someone I hardly know.

Most importantly I reassessed everything I took for granted, my deeply held beliefs that melted away once I got out of my shell and actually started interacting with people, including women, and discovered they were just as scared and insecure as I was, in may cases more son. I reassessed my belief that everyone was doing a great job except me and decided to cut myself some slack and love myself more, as it turned out to be total BS.

But if I hadn't decided that I wanted to free my mind and accept there would be hardship and pain that came with it, I would have stayed in that place. I also accepted that it would be a lifelong project and there's no magic answer, I still have a lot of work to do.

I arrived at those beliefs because I had a very difficult childhood and relationship with both parents,in particular my emotionally stunted mother who never recovered after a family trauma. But I have to have empathy for them and for myself, blaming others for your misfortune will leave you in a permanent state of arrested development.

Edited March 28 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Gebidozo said:

Exactly, the market has deemed you unattractive, therefore you should be with an equally unattractive woman. You don’t get to have a tall, slim, fun, charismatic sex bomb. Go and look for a short, chubby, awkward, intellectually unexciting girl. The market has ruled that is what you deserve, that is your level. It’s all fair. Why are you complaining? 

Well yes if you subscribe to "settle", I do not subscribe to that so I'd rather aspire to someone I do find attractive, even if said person would never date me. I have pretty much done that my entire adult life and every so often I'll get to spend time with people I find attractive and wonder how nice it would be to date them rather than the matches I get on OLD.

The most recent of which is an unemployed 54yo with 3 kids. No thanks.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

I reassessed how I view women and how I view relationships. I reassessed how much people's opinions of me matters, not just women but everyone around me. I reassessed my difficulties with dating and why I may be having them, the fears around it that were possibly inhibiting positive change. I reassessed how much importance dating should have in my life, and how much importance I should give a rejection from someone I hardly know.

Most importantly I reassessed everything I took for granted, my deeply held beliefs that melted away once I got out of my shell and actually started interacting with people, including women, and discovered they were just as scared and insecure as I was, in may cases more son. I reassessed my belief that everyone was doing a great job except me and decided to cut myself some slack and love myself more, as it turned out to be total BS.

But if I hadn't decided that I wanted to free my mind and accept there would be hardship and pain that came with it, I would have stayed in that place. I also accepted that it would be a lifelong project and there's no magic answer, I still have a lot of work to do.

Thanks for being candid and honest. Do you feel you made gains which made it worth while? How do you measure your improvements since your change of thinking? Do you think you have severely compromised versus what you initially wanted out of dating?

I have never had what I'd define as success so that is the only reason I do not give up completely. I have taken people to events with me, really enjoyed spending time with them, the conversation always flowed, they fitted into a quite a difficult social setting and what I enjoyed so much was sharing the experience with them. 

Often I look at why I struggle and I assess that often, I fear very little but one thing I do is never getting to experience mutual attraction and perhaps landing up on my own but that seems inevitable so I'll work on reconciling that. Agreed rejection is part of life BUT when when ALL you get is rejection over and over again that does become a problem, walk over a field of thorns twice and see how keen you are to do it a third time, my guess is not very.

Sure people struggle to varying degrees, I do not disagree with you. I am my own harshest critic and justifiably so, its becomes highly irritating to have the same issue over and over again which is why it relatively speaking easier to convince myself I do not want to date.

In my mind I have run out of time to have the experiences I want to have, that is probably the hardest thing to live with.

[Gaeta]

27 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd rather aspire to someone I do find attractive, even if said person would never date me. I have pretty much done that my entire adult life and every so often I'll get to spend time with people I find attractive

Maybe it's best you do that because you have unrealistic expectations and you refuse to dig into why you are so superficial when it comes to women. Women are human beings that change through the years. The most beautiful woman will get wrinkles, will get gray hair, will get saggy skin, and her waist will thicken. It's a normal part of life. I don't see you as being able to connect to a deep level that she will continue to be attractive to you through years, illnesses, and life changes. In a way it's sad you cannot see deeper than our layer of skin.

[Wiseman2]

Perhaps MAMA ZANDA AND PROF MBEGGU can help you find a right-wing super model to fall into your lap and be attracted to you? 

[FredEire]

39 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks for being candid and honest. Do you feel you made gains which made it worth while? How do you measure your improvements since your change of thinking? Do you think you have severely compromised versus what you initially wanted out of dating?

I have never had what I'd define as success so that is the only reason I do not give up completely. I have taken people to events with me, really enjoyed spending time with them, the conversation always flowed, they fitted into a quite a difficult social setting and what I enjoyed so much was sharing the experience with them. 

Often I look at why I struggle and I assess that often, I fear very little but one thing I do is never getting to experience mutual attraction and perhaps landing up on my own but that seems inevitable so I'll work on reconciling that. Agreed rejection is part of life BUT when when ALL you get is rejection over and over again that does become a problem, walk over a field of thorns twice and see how keen you are to do it a third time, my guess is not very.

Sure people struggle to varying degrees, I do not disagree with you. I am my own harshest critic and justifiably so, its becomes highly irritating to have the same issue over and over again which is why it relatively speaking easier to convince myself I do not want to date.

In my mind I have run out of time to have the experiences I want to have, that is probably the hardest thing to live with.

I didn't compromise at all. I have dated a lot in the last ten years and spend time with girls of different ages, appearances, personality type, nationality, culture etc. I've learned a lot about dating and about myself. What I still have difficulty with is developing strong romantic feelings, as on the rare occasion when I do it seems to be for inappropriate or unavailable people. So that's what I still need to work on, but I've met many girls I found attractive and who were attracted to me.

Now within those experiences there's been plenty of rejection and one-sided interest, either on my end or hers. But at this stage I've been rejected so many times it holds absolutely no fear for me and unless I've fallen hard (which isn't too often) it's a passing feeling of "this is a bit rubbish, oh well". I've also been accepted enough times to be confident that even though X girl might not be into me, there are others who will.

I realise you say you don't have the positive experience, but it was only through getting out there and trying that I started having more and more of these, initially it was rejection after rejection. And frankly as I get older and more experienced I'm having more positive experiences as I realise when something isn't going anywhere more often and know when to cut it off and save myself the hassle.

As you say you are in your late 30s, the ideal time to get over this stuff is in your early 20s but you still have some time, but you have to move now. If you continue to be stuck wallowing in your own misery moving into old age you are forever going to regret it wondering what could have been.

[FredEire]

There's also a principle of martial arts and eastern philosophy in general that if you are student looking for answers, you don't try and lecture people who have been there and done that.

If I was taking a judo class as a white belt and told the black belt instructor or even my lower rank classmates they were doing the moves all wrong,.while continually getting the same moves wrong myself, they'd consider me a hard-headed fool. And rightly so.

[ZA Dater]

39 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I didn't compromise at all. I have dated a lot in the last ten years and spend time with girls of different ages, appearances, personality type, nationality, culture etc. I've learned a lot about dating and about myself. What I still have difficulty with is developing strong romantic feelings, as on the rare occasion when I do it seems to be for inappropriate or unavailable people. So that's what I still need to work on, but I've met many girls I found attractive and who were attracted to me.

Now within those experiences there's been plenty of rejection and one-sided interest, either on my end or hers. But at this stage I've been rejected so many times it holds absolutely no fear for me and unless I've fallen hard (which isn't too often) it's a passing feeling of "this is a bit rubbish, oh well". I've also been accepted enough times to be confident that even though X girl might not be into me, there are others who will.

I realise you say you don't have the positive experience, but it was only through getting out there and trying that I started having more and more of these, initially it was rejection after rejection. And frankly as I get older and more experienced I'm having more positive experiences as I realise when something isn't going anywhere more often and know when to cut it off and save myself the hassle.

As you say you are in your late 30s, the ideal time to get over this stuff is in your early 20s but you still have some time, but you have to move now. If you continue to be stuck wallowing in your own misery moving into old age you are forever going to regret it wondering what could have been.

I enjoy your advice and take on this because to some extent you have walked in my shoes so you can relate a bit.

OLD has been my go to dating method as in theory it gives the most coverage, clearly it does not work for me though. I have tried and tried with this met pretty much anyone who would meet but as time has gone on my perspective has changed.

You mention something important, if one person was not into you then you were sure another would bet, I'd love to have this and tried looking at it like this but I have not managed to get it to work from a mutual attraction point of view and her I want to emphasize intellectual connection.

I very rarely develop the feeling is want to date a person and like you it's never for available people or people who would be interested.

As for time again thanks for being candid, I've  run out of it so I live with that regret every single day and believe me that is very difficult to live with. My cure of sorts for that is to take interest in co workers abs give where I can, but I holidays come, sometimes I don't want to have dinner on my own and that nothing feeling isn't pleasant.

I'm going to take your advice just try befriend this lady I really like and hopefully that will be enough it's not what I want but it's the best I can do.

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I enjoy your advice and take on this because to some extent you have walked in my shoes so you can relate a bit.

OLD has been my go to dating method as in theory it gives the most coverage, clearly it does not work for me though. I have tried and tried with this met pretty much anyone who would meet but as time has gone on my perspective has changed.

You mention something important, if one person was not into you then you were sure another would bet, I'd love to have this and tried looking at it like this but I have not managed to get it to work from a mutual attraction point of view and her I want to emphasize intellectual connection.

I very rarely develop the feeling is want to date a person and like you it's never for available people or people who would be interested.

As for time again thanks for being candid, I've  run out of it so I live with that regret every single day and believe me that is very difficult to live with. My cure of sorts for that is to take interest in co workers abs give where I can, but I holidays come, sometimes I don't want to have dinner on my own and that nothing feeling isn't pleasant.

I'm going to take your advice just try befriend this lady I really like and hopefully that will be enough it's not what I want but it's the best I can do.

I think the main point I want to make is that sparks fly when two people bring something to the table which connects for both of them, that's how you get mutual attraction.

If someone has very little to offer other than insecurity and self-pity that isn't possible, the relationship would just be their partner trying to look after them and calm their constant doubts. Now sometimes that happens but it's usually comes out after several months of dating where buried unconscious issues rise to the surface. If that's what you get from someone straight away something is seriously off.

You need to re-evaluate your relationship with yourself, and the best way to do that is therapy with a good qualified professional, as much as you might poo-poo it.

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think the main point I want to make is that sparks fly when two people bring something to the table which connects for both of them, that's how you get mutual attraction.

If someone has very little to offer other than insecurity and self-pity that isn't possible, the relationship would just be their partner trying to look after them and calm their constant doubts. Now sometimes that happens but it's usually comes out after several months of dating where buried unconscious issues rise to the surface. If that's what you get from someone straight away something is seriously off.

You need to re-evaluate your relationship with yourself, and the best way to do that is therapy with a good qualified professional, as much as you might poo-poo it.

No thanks been there derived no benefit whatsoever.

It seems some just connect more easily than others. Hence me seeing how superficial can be helpful but not as helpful as it might seem in the long run.

For ten months in affectively dated a friend, from the off she was more attracted to me while I really enjoyed her company you can see how this would not work. I really want to avoid that again. 

Ultimately though it's down to what I can live with, if I wasn't chasing mutual attraction I'd walk away for good I only keep going because that must be something amazing to experience.

[NuevoYorko]

21 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

thats better than waking up next to "average '.

That's what SHE said (😆 😂)

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

For ten months in affectively dated a friend, from the off she was more attracted to me while I really enjoyed her company you can see how this would not work. I really want to avoid that again. 

This describes my first relationship as well. It was a valuable learning experience. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

…if I wasn't chasing mutual attraction I'd walk away for good I only keep going because that must be something amazing to experience.

It’s great, but also overrated. Many a stupid choice has been made in the name of attraction. 

[Wiseman2]

Beggers can't be choosers. 

"she was more attracted to me while I really enjoyed her company you can see how this would not work. I really want to avoid that again"

[FredEire]

16 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

This describes my first relationship as well. It was a valuable learning experience. 

 

It’s great, but also overrated. Many a stupid choice has been made in the name of attraction. 

Yep and yep.

I partly agree with OP about settling actually. I don't think you should get into a relationship out of desperation and convenience and it's depressingly common. Where is disagree is that it's all relationships or it's an inevitable part of dating.

OP doesn't seem to have gone past the first hurdle when it comes to attraction. Thinking "wow this person is gorgeous" basically only applies to the first couple of dates or maybe even the first date. Some of the most physically attractive people I've dated were totally incompatible with me, I found them very boring or were just plain crazy/unhinged.

Your overall level of attraction to someone can't be measured but how hot you think they are the first time you see them, it's determined after actually getting to know them and what makes them tick. But if you stay wrapped up in the PUA attitude of "high-value" people and the "sexual marketplace" you never get past cold business like ideas. It's a philosophy created by unsuccessful individuals who don't really understand the complexity of people.

[BaileyB]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well yes if you subscribe to "settle", I do not subscribe to that so I'd rather aspire to someone I do find attractive, even if said person would never date me.

What a messed up way to look at “relationships.” You would rather aspire to spend time with an attractive woman - even if she will never date you or have sex with you. You would just content yourself to be in her presence…

That, I would call “settling…”

 

Edited March 28 by BaileyB

[Foxhall]

Just reading a few of the updates,

One thing I perhaps disagree on- the idea that you can only aim for plain women or women who are not blessed with good looks or whatever (I guess there is no easy way to phrase it)

Its fair to say that looks wise a guy can often overachieve with the partner he finds,

to take a random example, one could argue that many ukrainian women have traits of being beautiful, intelligent and quiet,

Hypothetically I imagine a ukrainian woman, who doesnt have a  job, doesnt have much money and so on- they would be perfectly happy to meet Za Dater, who would be an excellent catch for them.

 Za Dater, though,  in addition to the potential partner being beautiful, he also wants them to have airs and graces about them

Personally I am attracted to vulnerability- (pretty and vulnerable- have taken a few knocks and so on) 

you are attracted to social confidence and beauty, intelligence- the whole package as it were,

Your finding you are coming up short against your contemporaries in attracting these "sophisticated" women

I agree your probably too young yet to just settle either, 

I imagine you are a little closer now than when I first encountered these boards five years ago- (some may disagree) youve had a relationship or two since then- your getting a little closer even if the pace of things may not be moving as fast as you hope,

I think finding someone who has had their confidence knocked at times over the years- you dont have to compromise on their looks but maybe on their personality.

 

[Gebidozo]

23 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

Hypothetically I imagine a ukrainian woman, who doesnt have a  job, doesnt have much money and so on- they would be perfectly happy to meet Za Dater, who would be an excellent catch for them.

Maybe so, but would you really advise the guy to have a relationship with a woman who is with him for his money?

Now that’s really “settling” (or whatever they call it in incel language). And it’s downright humiliating.

You are right that average-looking guys can conquer beautiful women, but that’s because those guys have attractive personality traits, not because they exploit those women’s need for money.

[Foxhall]

I take your point,

 I dont mean to make it sound like buying a womans affections,

 

they might need a little help including financial starting out but then Za Dater or whoever can help them grow and flourish independently and vice versa, building each others confidence and  forming a bond,

my idea is based on the principle that a woman who is more humble will be easier to bond with , than a woman who has been a high achiever , a woman who has a lot of self confidence,

 a woman who has a lot of airs and graces in the sense they think they are too good for an "average guy"

I think everyone can agree Za Dater is lacking the self confidence himself to have a chance with the aforementioned, but if he meets a lady who is more humble and has not quite figured it all out yet (she can still be beautiful),

that is the essence of my point.(as opposed to making it sound like buying someone)