Perspective

[Gebidozo]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I never mind mutual attraction then if you want to put it that way. Others seemingly find this. I know exactly what I find appealing, those basic requirements are still valid. Kids will be a complete deal breaker irrespective of anything else. 

I also find find confident people attractive and by that they are usually outgoing. 

Ultimately I land up in a situation where sure I find people attractive, enjoy their company but as has happened now and always happens they are not interested in me. Fine enough no problem but inevitably I get to see the people they are interested in and it makes sense why I am of no interest.

You can’t seriously state that you are looking for mutual attraction if you also say that kids will be a complete deal breaker. Mutual attraction has nothing to do with having or not having kids. Your other requirements (tall, slim, etc.) also have very little to do with mutual attraction. 

You are doing things in the wrong order. Your order is:

1) Make a list of what is supposed to attract you

2) Meet a girl

3) Decide you’re attracted because she fits your list

It should be:

1) Meet a girl

2) Really get attracted

3) Make a list of what actually attracts you

[Gebidozo]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately I land up in a situation where sure I find people attractive, enjoy their company but as has happened now and always happens they are not interested in me. Fine enough no problem but inevitably I get to see the people they are interested in and it makes sense why I am of no interest.

Then don’t meet those people. Meet people that would be interested in you, and get interested in them.

I don’t meet 18 year old rich models who frequent upscale nightclubs and are interested in athletes who drive Ferraris. I meet women who can actually get interested in me, women who like in their men the very qualities that I possess. Why don’t you try to do the same?

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Then don’t meet those people. Meet people that would be interested in you, and get interested in them.

I don’t meet 18 year old rich models who frequent upscale nightclubs and are interested in athletes who drive Ferraris. I meet women who can actually get interested in me, women who like in their men the very qualities that I possess. Why don’t you try to do the same?

There are none. OLD has show me I get interest from single mothers, unemployed people and generally people I have nothing in common with at all. The qualities I have are not wanted by most of people I seem to meet, this starts a massive argument because my friend begs to differ but again the proof of the pudding is in the eating and not once have I ever been able to go out with someone I actually wanted to spend time with.

I really enjoy spending time with this latest lady but again she is less than enthusiastic about me and frankly why would she be, she gets plenty of attention, she is early 40's no kids, very good career, diverse interests, highly intelligent and athletic. 

In terms of OLD I have been on those sites for well over 10 years with no real success at all, for me the lack of interest I get there just mirrors the lack of interest I get overall.

[ZA Dater]

40 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

You can’t seriously state that you are looking for mutual attraction if you also say that kids will be a complete deal breaker. Mutual attraction has nothing to do with having or not having kids. Your other requirements (tall, slim, etc.) also have very little to do with mutual attraction. 

You are doing things in the wrong order. Your order is:

1) Make a list of what is supposed to attract you

2) Meet a girl

3) Decide you’re attracted because she fits your list

It should be:

1) Meet a girl

2) Really get attracted

3) Make a list of what actually attracts you

I simply do not find anyone who has kids attractive, there is your answer. For me mutual attraction is the person has none of the deal breaker qualities I do not want, just like I got thrown away like garbage I too can choose. You are right that is exactly the order I do things in, 100% correct.

I am not ever going to attracted to people who have none of the traits I find attractive, simply will not happen. Its great that people can simply overlook things kudos to them but I simply cannot do that and when I look around me and people closest to me, it becomes apparent they did not do that either. Then again most of them are physically attractive so I guess therein is my answer.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

inevitably I get to see the people they are interested in and it makes sense why I am of no interest.

It does makes sense but not for the reasons that you believe it to be - 

You create your own reality. If you believe yourself to be incapable or unworthy - that is true. No one will succeed in convincing you otherwise - it is a waste of time.

It is this strange sense of entitlement that is astounding - this belief that somehow you are entitled to and deserving of certain things that you do not have to offer in return. 

This discussion, these same rigid beliefs, seem to be your chosen coping strategy to deal with the insecurity and uncertainty of life/relationships. There is no risk when one is sitting on the sidelines, complaining about the injustice of it all… But, there is also nothing to be gained - except a false sense of security. I find myself wondering what is happening this week that you have chosen to resurrect this old debate, return to the familiar rigidity and self defence. 

 

Edited March 22 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It does makes sense but not for the reasons that you believe it to be - 

You create your own reality. If you believe yourself to be incapable or unworthy - that is true. No one will succeed in convincing you otherwise - it is a waste of time.

It is this strange sense of entitlement that is astounding - this belief that somehow you are entitled to and deserving of certain things that you do not have to offer in return. 

This discussion, these same rigid beliefs, seem to be your chosen coping strategy to deal with the insecurity and uncertainty of life/relationships. There is no risk when one is sitting on the sidelines, complaining about the injustice of it all… But, there is also nothing to be gained - except a false sense of security… which seems to be your primary reason for returning to this debate. Shore up your defences, distract yourself and everyone else - safe again for a while longer…

 

I am sorry but misguided blind faith does not work either,  history is full of that particular folly.  So tell me why would someone who has lots of options choose me? I have asked a question in this thread which has not been answered: Why would I ask someone out who takes 5 days to respond to a text msg, what good can come of that?  Yet this is what said friend is encouraging me to do.

Would you do that?

Here is where you have it wrong, what I like I can match but what I cannot match is physical looks but apparently by consensus here these are irrelevant so that is ok? I am super confident I can fit into most discussions and I am super confident intellectually I stand toe to toe with most, this has been proven many times in the interactions I have. 

Trust me there is no security, I have to face bleak realties like many people almost every single day, said friend wants to give me a birthday party, there is no point because there is nobody to invite, that is hardly a pleasant feeling. Looking around me at people with partners, families, sharing things with them, its a pretty bleak feeling when I am sitting on my own all the time. I have face unimaginable trauma in my life, been to places I would not wish on my worst enemy and equally I have seen the best in people too.

Everyday I have to pull this mask on, pretend everything is OK, pretend I am ok with being lonely, pretend I am dating. Its a very defeated feeling more so when like now I meet someone I like and well I am not good enough.

There is nothing pity about any of this, I do just wish I'd been told I was ugly earlier in life, been told "well ABC is never going to like you, your level of XYZ". Years of dating failure mixed with loneliness create something particularly unpleasant, which I need to pretend does not exist.

All I can do each day is just pretend none of this exists. 

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Why would I ask someone out who takes 5 days to respond to a text msg, what good can come of that?  Yet this is what said friend is encouraging me to do.

 

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

said friend wants to give me a birthday party, there is no point because there is nobody to invite

For what it’s worth, I would assume the woman is not interested. And, you may not have anyone to invite to a party but you have at least one friend who wants to celebrate your birthday - I would celebrate that. 

Edited March 22 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 

For what it’s worth, I would assume the woman is not interested. And, you may not have anyone to invite to a party but you have at least one friend who wants to celebrate your birthday - I would celebrate that. 

This mistake I made here was actually believing I could date her. Sounds stupid but its a fundamental mistake which started with "you should try she is perfect for you" and I ignored my own "why would she date me" every single time I get hurt its because I ignore that reality and try believe in something good.

As for the birthday party, there will not be one. I am spending the day and home and celebrating nothing because there is nothing to celebrate by every measure I am a complete failure at life.

Thanks as always for your advice.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

find myself wondering what is happening this week that you have chosen to resurrect this old debate, return to the familiar rigidity and self defence. 

Indeed. You've been fairly quiet in recent months and I thought you might have been getting your s*** together.  And them BOOM we're back into the endless loop of you saying all the things you've said so many times before. 

I can't see what you'd gain from many years of writing the same thing over and over and over again. Is it attention seeking? 

 

[Weezy1973]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Is it attention seeking? 

A woman he likes isn’t interested in him. Brings all the self-loathing and low self worth to the fore. Posting I suspect is a coping mechanism. 
 

OP, you’ve posted here for a long time and we all have memories. I remember you being interested in a woman that had a child. She stayed with you for a bit and you went out and about with her and her kid and really enjoyed it. Yet here you are stating you don’t find women with kids attractive (which is just a strange statement to make). 
 

You’ve also had a long term relationship. So pretending women don’t like you is kind of strange. I don’t understand why you change your stories. I think you just get so much on the negativity loop that you can’t get off.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

A woman he likes isn’t interested in him. Brings all the self-loathing and low self worth to the fore. Posting I suspect is a coping mechanism. 
 

OP, you’ve posted here for a long time and we all have memories. I remember you being interested in a woman that had a child. She stayed with you for a bit and you went out and about with her and her kid and really enjoyed it. Yet here you are stating you don’t find women with kids attractive (which is just a strange statement to make). 
 

You’ve also had a long term relationship. So pretending women don’t like you is kind of strange. I don’t understand why you change your stories. I think you just get so much on the negativity loop that you can’t get off.

The long term relationship was not something I particularly enjoyed from a relationship point of view, from a friend point of view yes from an intimate point of view no, I simply was not attracted to her like that, basically that is why it fell apart, I simply could not force myself to find her physically attractive.

As for the other lady, yes widowed. No father in the picture, she was amazing to spend time with because once again she is attractive, easy to talk to, smart and we shared a lot deep personal thoughts as she went through a very tough time in her life. She chose an older successful guy over me and today is married to him and has another kid.

The bold is 10000% true. I wont refute that. Years of it arrives.

 

[ZA Dater]

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Indeed. You've been fairly quiet in recent months and I thought you might have been getting your s*** together.  And them BOOM we're back into the endless loop of you saying all the things you've said so many times before. 

I can't see what you'd gain from many years of writing the same thing over and over and over again. Is it attention seeking? 

 

I had a most unfortunate discussion with a close friend who dispensed all sort of frankly useless advice. It was he who also made me believe I had some sort of chance with this latest interest which of course I was hesitant to believe at first, I spent some time with her and thought actually maybe I do have a chance but no surprise it all falls flat.

All I do is paper over the cracks, this is becoming harder and harder to do.

[FredEire]

I think at this point these threads are just masturbatory self-pity and reaffirmations of your deeply rooted ideas that you are not good enough to date anybody.

Either take that self pity and wallow in it, or listen to our advice and try to make positive changes in your life. The choice is yours.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think at this point these threads are just masturbatory self-pity and reaffirmations of your deeply rooted ideas that you are not good enough to date anybody.

Either take that self pity and wallow in it, or listen to our advice and try to make positive changes in your life. The choice is yours.

I have been making changes suggested here for years, I still cannot seemingly attract people I enjoy spending time with. That is the fundamental problem, I can try as I did here to find  every ounce of confidence I can, I try try and be outgoing and open but at what point do you say  "this does not work"? 

For me a positive change would not be "well maybe look at other people you might not really find attractive, they may become attractive over time", that does not work, I have tried it for years!

[FredEire]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been making changes suggested here for years, I still cannot seemingly attract people I enjoy spending time with. That is the fundamental problem, I can try as I did here to find  every ounce of confidence I can, I try try and be outgoing and open but at what point do you say  "this does not work"? 

For me a positive change would not be "well maybe look at other people you might not really find attractive, they may become attractive over time", that does not work, I have tried it for years!

You say that you don't meet many people.

You don't seem to have tried therapy or working on social skills.

You insist on making feeling sorry for yourself a huge feature of your life rather than rising above it and prioritising other more important things.

Where is the taking advice exactly?

[BaileyB]

56 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

A woman he likes isn’t interested in him. Brings all the self-loathing and low self worth to the fore. Posting I suspect is a coping mechanism. 

This, exactly. The response is to shift the blame  - the women are unattractive, they can’t hold a conversations, she hasn’t texted me back, it’s not my fault if suggestions I’ve tried don’t work - it’s just the way of the world, it’s set up to benefit the beautiful people and I can just never get what I want!

The truth is, it just really hurts when one wants to connect and it doesn’t happen. And, it’s difficult to deal with the loneliness and the feelings of constant rejections. 

Posting here provides not only distraction but attention. In much the same way that we all have defence mechanisms that we use to cope with similar situations/rejections, this is the coping strategy of choice… Defences go up and it’s a retreat to the comfort zone - the unrealistic expectations, the rigidity, the circular debate, the same tired arguments…

Edited March 22 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

25 minutes ago, FredEire said:

You say that you don't meet many people.

You don't seem to have tried therapy or working on social skills.

You insist on making feeling sorry for yourself a huge feature of your life rather than rising above it and prioritising other more important things.

Where is the taking advice exactly?

I meet lots of people, none are single, the vast majority of my very informal tied to business social circle are all married. Therapy, been there done that multiple times and wont be doing it again.

Here is a good example maybe you can relate to this, a good friend of mine has a significantly younger GF than him (20+ years), so I get to meet some of her friends which are largely in my age range (32-42) and you know what the looks I get, the looks of disdain (which are irrelevant as none of these people interest me either). He loves to play matchmaker but even he has realized I have nothing to offer. This is not being sorry for myself it is the reality of the situation. 

There is a very particular type of person I like and sure this shrinks the pool, it drop even further because I refuse to conform to social norms like drinking, it drops yet again because I am a self confessed loner so when all is done sure most of it is my fault but heck like now I actually find someone I get along with really well and share things in common with(this is very rare) and it does not work.

Would you not ask yourself if you were in my shoes a few harsh questions?

[Gaeta]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I simply do not find anyone who has kids attractive, there is your answer

There is a name for that, Elvis Presley was suffering from the same syndrom. You should talk about that to a therapist. In  your age rage I'd say 80% of women have had 1 child already. 

So you are looking for: 

(Those statistics are easy to find online)

Woman with no child: 20%and below available in your age range

Women above 5'8'' in your country: Very low rate - the average woman is 5'2''

Women slim: In South Africa people suffers of obesity at 68%

You have so many road blocks it's unsure if you do want a relationship.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This, exactly. The response is to shift the blame  - the women are unattractive, they can’t hold a conversations, she hasn’t texted me back, it’s not my fault if suggestions I’ve tried don’t work - it’s just the way of the world, it’s set up to benefit the beautiful people and I can just never get what I want!

The truth is, it just really hurts when one wants to connect and it doesn’t happen. And, it’s difficult to deal with the loneliness and the feelings of constant rejections. 

Thank you, this is more empathy the my own friends show toward me, most of which have known me 20+years. I am glad this is acknowledged. My view on the world is well known, most do not agree with it.

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

There is a name for that, Elvis Presley was suffering from the same syndrom. You should talk about that to a therapist. In  your age rage I'd say 80% of women have had 1 child already. 

So you are looking for: 

(Those statistics are easy to find online)

Woman with no child: 20%and below available in your age range

Women above 5'8'' in your country: Very low rate - the average woman is 5'2''

Women slim: In South Africa people suffers of obesity at 68%

You have so many road blocks it's unsure if you do want a relationship.

Odd I find plenty of people who are not obese, most are taller than 5.2 and many do not have kids but I guess being these things makes them "high value" or perceived to be so thus there is an array of options for them.

Suppose it would be interesting to run the same above and apply it to men. 

Do you think I'd find something attractive that does not exist?

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am glad this is acknowledged.

It’s a basic truth, but it doesn’t give permission to moan and belly ache in the way that you do. People have limited patience for this kind of negativity. 

This may be your chosen coping strategy but it is maladaptive. If you choose to wallow in self-pity, you are likely to do so alone because nobody wants to hear this constantly…

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you think I'd find something attractive that does not exist?

And the debate continues…

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I meet lots of people, none are single, the vast majority of my very informal tied to business social circle are all married. Therapy, been there done that multiple times and wont be doing it again.

Here is a good example maybe you can relate to this, a good friend of mine has a significantly younger GF than him (20+ years), so I get to meet some of her friends which are largely in my age range (32-42) and you know what the looks I get, the looks of disdain (which are irrelevant as none of these people interest me either). He loves to play matchmaker but even he has realized I have nothing to offer. This is not being sorry for myself it is the reality of the situation. 

There is a very particular type of person I like and sure this shrinks the pool, it drop even further because I refuse to conform to social norms like drinking, it drops yet again because I am a self confessed loner so when all is done sure most of it is my fault but heck like now I actually find someone I get along with really well and share things in common with(this is very rare) and it does not work.

Would you not ask yourself if you were in my shoes a few harsh questions?

If you don't mind me asking what was the issue you had with therapy? Difficulty opening up your true feelings?

How do you know they were looking at you with disdain? When your self-esteem is on the floor you can tend to interpret things like this that aren't necessarily the reality. They don't know you so I think it's probably unlikely.

I've been where you are, believe me. Nowadays I don't have difficulty dating but I do have difficulty meeting people where we mutually want a LTR. It's beyond frustrating and you're far from alone in this, despite your assertions that "everyone" is getting it right except you.

The difference is though that I've decided there's no point wallowing in my own self-pity, I want to do my damnedest to make sure that if I end up alone it wasn't for lack of putting myself out there and attempting to open up and get in touch with my emotions. Your rigid refusal to do this and proclaim you're just doomed and there's nothing you can do is what's holding you back.

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, FredEire said:

If you don't mind me asking what was the issue you had with therapy? Difficulty opening up your true feelings?

How do you know they were looking at you with disdain? When your self-esteem is on the floor you can tend to interpret things like this that aren't necessarily the reality. They don't know you so I think it's probably unlikely.

I've been where you are, believe me. Nowadays I don't have difficulty dating but I do have difficulty meeting people where we mutually want a LTR. It's beyond frustrating and you're far from alone in this, despite your assertions that "everyone" is getting it right except you.

The difference is though that I've decided there's no point wallowing in my own self-pity, I want to do my damnedest to make sure that if I end up alone it wasn't for lack of putting myself out there and attempting to open up and get in touch with my emotions. Your rigid refusal to do this and proclaim you're just doomed and there's nothing you can do is what's holding you back.

The issue I have is its of no practical value. Sitting talking to someone does not make me anymore attractive or marketable nor does it make me feel better. For a great many months I lapped up YouTube dating advice, yea I seperated what I could quite clearly see was nonsense. If anything while that painted a doomed picture I did feel a bit better.

They would not even greet me never mind talk to me, they were all very happy to talk to my friend. On balance it was no loss to me.

I think most people fall in love in their life, it's hard to see any scenario where that would happen to me , just being truthful.

[Wiseman2]

Agree. Unfortunately these topics are posed as something else then ultimately devolve into incels rhetoric and pity parties.