Perspective

[Gebidozo]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Bluntly if I cannot date someone I find attractive there is no point dating at all. The bar is not set very high and I believe what I find attractive is fairly ordinary so if that is not possible then yeah I don't see much point. What I like has nothing to with value when someone speaks well has intelligent things to say can talk about many topics has confidence, I notice these things. Yes she is blond and tall but that doesn't define her.

I forgot to add to all of this "well you should date single mothers afterall at your age most ladies will have kids" again said by so someone older who won't date single mothers. 

Honestly and I mean this sincerely what you accomplished I could not do, I really could not. 

It appears to me that you have too many requirements. Dating doesn’t work like this. Be more humble. You say yourself that you’re not attractive enough, why then do you exclude single mothers? I think I’m attractive, but I wouldn’t exclude single mothers if I were single myself. I also wouldn’t set such criteria as “tall and slim”. Short and fat woman would be perfectly fine if she is nice and there is chemistry between you.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

I have always thought I could overcome the issues with what I am good at but that's never been the case. Here in this latest mess I could actually be me, use everything I am good at and still it did not help.

Would it be safe to assume some people do find dating much easier than others? Is that a fair statement?

You have actually given me one compromise idea that might work, I'll get some sort of interaction via the friendzone. Not ideal but better than nothing.

Yes I think it's a fair statement that some find it naturally easier than others.

It sounds like your social skills need a lot of work. An engineer isn't going to be a brilliant dater because he's a brilliant engineer. But there's plenty of courses, training and therapy available for this.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

How can you say that you tried to change something if you still call yourself a “leper in terms of attraction”?

Obviously, you just tried to change your manners, the words you say, the things you do. That’s not real change. Real change comes from inside. Saying confidently sounding stuff and acting confidently won’t make you confident. You can get therapy or work on yourself alone, but it’s very clear that you severely lack self-appreciation.

You think you have nothing to offer, and women believe you. They sense it. They don’t like you because you don’t like yourself. Love yourself and others will follow.

 

Lovely words and I appreciate them all.

I do believe I have things to offer just nothing of value to the people I find attractive. Each day I have to work hard at many things, to pretend everything is ok, to try find as much confidence as I can both are difficult, add being shy and it's even more difficult.

There are people really enjoy they bring out every bit of confidence, I love chatting with them, the conversation are interesting and I get that attention I enjoy so much. Alas that's as far as I goes. I am good enough for a conversation, nothing more.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes I think it's a fair statement that some find it naturally easier than others.

It sounds like your social skills need a lot of work. An engineer isn't going to be a brilliant dater because he's a brilliant engineer. But there's plenty of courses, training and therapy available for this.

Not really I have no issues socialising, more often than not I am around very successful accomplished people and I can hold my own in that social environment. I enjoy that environment immensely. The topics are broad and thinking is required but it's hugely enjoyable.

It's an environment I excel in and so does this latest interest and I found that attractive.

 

[FredEire]

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Bluntly if I cannot date someone I find attractive there is no point dating at all. The bar is not set very high and I believe what I find attractive is fairly ordinary so if that is not possible then yeah I don't see much point. What I like has nothing to with value when someone speaks well has intelligent things to say can talk about many topics has confidence, I notice these things. Yes she is blond and tall but that doesn't define her.

I forgot to add to all of this "well you should date single mothers afterall at your age most ladies will have kids" again said by so someone older who won't date single mothers. 

Honestly and I mean this sincerely what you accomplished I could not do, I really could not. 

I don't blame you for this, I too find the idea of settling with someone you don't even like and/or find attractive out of desperation really depressing and it's sadly very common.

However there's a wide world out there, if your dating standards are as you say reasonable then a healthy, well kept confident guy will get someone he finds attractive. However you're not there at the moment, so any sort of speculation about this is just academic.

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not really I have no issues socialising, more often than not I am around very successful accomplished people and I can hold my own in that social environment. I enjoy that environment immensely. The topics are broad and thinking is required but it's hugely enjoyable.

It's an environment I excel in and so does this latest interest and I found that attractive.

 

I think you're mistaking doing well in one specific environment with good social skills. Part of social skills is ability to adapt to a different environment including dating, if you struggle with this then something is missing.

[Gebidozo]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Lovely words and I appreciate them all.

I do believe I have things to offer just nothing of value to the people I find attractive. Each day I have to work hard at many things, to pretend everything is ok, to try find as much confidence as I can both are difficult, add being shy and it's even more difficult.

There are people really enjoy they bring out every bit of confidence, I love chatting with them, the conversation are interesting and I get that attention I enjoy so much. Alas that's as far as I goes. I am good enough for a conversation, nothing more.

First of all, try to find more people attractive. You’ve set the bar too high, believe me. Women are beautiful. Stop going for “tall, slim, no kids, likes basketball and can recite the complete list of the kings of England” or whatever.

Then, you say you pretend everything is ok. Stop pretending. Women really, really don’t like guys who pretend anything. Complete, disarming honesty is a must. Put it out there. Meet a woman on a date and tell her how you feel, with irony and gentle humor and a tinge of sadness. Don’t feel pity for yourself.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, Gebidozo said:

First of all, try to find more people attractive. You’ve set the bar too high, believe me. Women are beautiful. Stop going for “tall, slim, no kids, likes basketball and can recite the complete list of the kings of England” or whatever.

Then, you say you pretend everything is ok. Stop pretending. Women really, really don’t like guys who pretend anything. Complete, disarming honesty is a must. Put it out there. Meet a woman on a date and tell her how you feel, with irony and gentle humor and a tinge of sadness. Don’t feel pity for yourself.

I don't think he can just automatically find more people attractive.

But by getting out and meeting real women in real life it probably does this naturally. People looking constantly at OnlyFans, social media and porn creates idealistic beauty standards that are impossible to live up to.

No matter how beautiful the woman, believe me nobody looks like a stunner when they get up at 7am with morning face, breath and hair. You have to be attracted to her personality not just her physical appearance.

[Gaeta]

54 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do believe I have things to offer just nothing of value to the people I find attractive

How do you know what each of us value? Not all tall & slim women want tall & fit men. Thank god people like all types of body shapes and personalities. Can you imagine if only beautiful-Hollywood people could find partners! 

I am with @FredEire you have a distorted image of what real women in the real world look like. 

Your bar is so high that I am starting to think you don't really want to find someone. I bet if you found that perfect woman and she loved you, you would be filled with so much insecurities, because you see yourself as less,  that the relationship would be doomed. 

[ZA Dater]

44 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

First of all, try to find more people attractive. You’ve set the bar too high, believe me. Women are beautiful. Stop going for “tall, slim, no kids, likes basketball and can recite the complete list of the kings of England” or whatever.

Then, you say you pretend everything is ok. Stop pretending. Women really, really don’t like guys who pretend anything. Complete, disarming honesty is a must. Put it out there. Meet a woman on a date and tell her how you feel, with irony and gentle humor and a tinge of sadness. Don’t feel pity for yourself.

If I do not find them attractive no amount of time with them will make them attractive, this is the unfortunate reality, for years I went out with anyone who would frankly go out with me and that was the mentality I had, to see if I could look past a lack of physical attraction. It never happened like that and what was worse I had to reject a few people and I did not feel good about that at all. While I do not like being rejected, I especially dislike having to reject others.

My bar is not high because I have met people who I do find attractive so I am not making an impossible list of criteria nobody can possible meet.

Re single mothers, I am not particularly fond of kids to be truthful, if they were my kids I'd feel differently I am sure.

As for honestly, the last time I brought this up on a date I was told "you lack experience you need to find someone as inexperienced as you to get practice" so no its better to try pretend all is well because who wants damaged goods when they do not have to have damaged goods.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

How do you know what each of us value? Not all tall & slim women want tall & fit men. Thank god people like all types of body shapes and personalities. Can you imagine if only beautiful-Hollywood people could find partners! 

I am with @FredEire you have a distorted image of what real women in the real world look like. 

Your bar is so high that I am starting to think you don't really want to find someone. I bet if you found that perfect woman and she loved you, you would be filled with so much insecurities, because you see yourself as less,  that the relationship would be doomed. 

Trust me at the moment there is someone I really, really, really find attractive. Incredible personality, we chat well in person, there is a lot of positive energy. I'd love to date her but alas she is not attracted to me. I know enough about what real women look like, I see them every single day when I sit and have breakfast or when I go for a walk at lunch. 

My bar is tall (5.8 being my version of tall for reference) and slim, gainfully employed, well spoken,intelligent and no kids. I really do not think those basic requirements are unrealistic.

 

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Trust me at the moment there is someone I really, really, really find attractive. Incredible personality, we chat well in person, there is a lot of positive energy. I'd love to date her but alas she is not attracted to me. I know enough about what real women look like, I see them every single day when I sit and have breakfast or when I go for a walk at lunch. 

My bar is tall (5.8 being my version of tall for reference) and slim, gainfully employed, well spoken,intelligent and no kids. I really do not think those basic requirements are unrealistic.

 

But you see her as some sort of magical fairy princess rather than a normal human being who is on your level. This is the main reason you don't have a chance with her, you are putting her on a pedestal and yourself beneath her, disqualifying yourself from her possibly finding you attractive.

[Gaeta]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My bar is tall (5.8 being my version of tall for reference

May I ask how tall you are?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

I think you're mistaking doing well in one specific environment with good social skills. Part of social skills is ability to adapt to a different environment including dating, if you struggle with this then something is missing.

I can adapt and I could probably adapt to dating if I was actually able to attract people I wanted to date. Tinder get a bad rep here so lets use Bumble, I was on the site for 4 years as a paid subscriber. I did not get ONE like from someone who interested me. What does this tell you and yes I swiped right on many profiles. 

As an analogy its like going to the America's Cup in a rowing boat from 1922. I know if I had the right person in front of me I could actually get dating to work, I have some degree of confidence in that but its proving near impossible to actually get that person in front of me. I am not chasing a hook up, I actually want to date someone who I can try add some value to their life and vice versa, who I can sit and talk to, open up to, support mentally, listen to their day, share victories, share losses and share life.  

Loyalty, I am loyal to a fault  but when I keep getting metaphorically kicked in the face I do become bitter, I do become irritated and when I have so called friend sitting in front of me telling me how easy it is when it is not I get become despondent. Again its about perspective.

If I am really going to try and make something work I have to feel its worth making the effort. I once had an amazing friend, again someone I really adored, fantastic personality warm, kind, smart, she had massively difficulties in life but overcame those. Once again not attracted to me. I can go on and on. 

Hope, like a sunset in winter, it fades fast.

 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

May I ask how tall you are?

5.9

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

But you see her as some sort of magical fairy princess rather than a normal human being who is on your level. This is the main reason you don't have a chance with her, you are putting her on a pedestal and yourself beneath her, disqualifying yourself from her possibly finding you attractive.

She does not find me attractive. She makes zero effort to communicate with me. Even I am not that stupid to think an action like that conveys any sort of interest at all. Factually she is not on my level, she can have whatever guy she wants. She is attractive and marketable and I am not.  The conversations I have with her are wide ranging, family, life etc. Does not make any difference. I try arrange meet up, she cancels because has friends she wants to see. How does any of this convey any interest at all?

 

[Gaeta]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

5.9

Well, you really like having it difficult in life...

A lot of women have a hard time dating men their own height as they feel they can't wear high heels or they need that couple of inches above them to feel safe (for lack of better word).

In a room of 10 women, how many you think want a man taller! 

All these 5'8 women don't want to date you because you are not tall enough, among other things,........How superficial of them right?

 

[Alpacalia]

I'm five foot five, I guess I wouldn't make the cut.

Albeit, my ex was 6 ft. 2 inches. (and he had a cute squishy buddha belly)😂

I also dated someone shorter then me.

Hey, height doesn't define a person. As long as you have a cute squishy buddha belly, you're all good 😉

Edited March 21 by Alpacalia

[Foxhall]

24 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

'm five foot five, I guess I wouldn't make the cut.

haha- for no reason in particular I had visualised you as much taller,

 

5'5 sounds perfect however 😆

[ZA Dater]

43 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Well, you really like having it difficult in life...

A lot of women have a hard time dating men their own height as they feel they can't wear high heels or they need that couple of inches above them to feel safe (for lack of better word).

In a room of 10 women, how many you think want a man taller! 

All these 5'8 women don't want to date you because you are not tall enough, among other things,........How superficial of them right?

 

I have learnt there will always be a reason I am not good enough so that is OK.  Maybe the answer is just friend zone, maybe that has been the answer all along.

[ZA Dater]

36 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

I'm five foot five, I guess I wouldn't make the cut.

Albeit, my ex was 6 ft. 2 inches. (and he had a cute squishy buddha belly)😂

I also dated someone shorter then me.

Hey, height doesn't define a person. As long as you have a cute squishy buddha belly, you're all good 😉

Never said it did.

Ultimately those who have universally attractive qualities will always prevail in the dating world and this is proven by said friend and other guys I know. Seemingly for the rest of us its a case of "well I cant date that sort of person, maybe I can find an alternative" which I am sure works well for most people. I however cannot ever subscribe to that which is why I will probably never find anyone. 

Again I suppose the perspective of someone who has fallen in love will be different to someone who has not. 

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have learnt there will always be a reason I am not good enough so that is OK.  Maybe the answer is just friend zone, maybe that has been the answer all along.

Brilliant, so the solution is just roll over and die.

There's no point coming on boards like this if you are unwilling to change or even listen to any advice.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Brilliant, so the solution is just roll over and die.

There's no point coming on boards like this if you are unwilling to change or even listen to any advice.

Oh do listen and have taken much advice.  Change is great but not for no purpose and not for no measurable results. You seem to think I have lived under a rock, I have been out, I have been to bars, been to clubs, been to parties, been to dinners and you know what I might as well not exist. 

The best dating experiences I have had, they were not dating experiences at all, having someone really nice sitting front of me talking about all manner of things, having a warm conversation. There being some common life philosophy and me summoning up all the confidence I can find. That was a nice experience. 

Going on a date I feel no physical attraction toward in the hope I can find some in person and then not finding that, that is not fun, its a waste of time for everyone. 

I appreciate people want to compromise but for me a lack of physical attraction is a compromise too far.

[Weezy1973]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately those who have universally attractive qualities will always prevail in the dating world…

If by “prevail” you mean are able to date other universally attractive people, then yes you’re right. Attractive people date attractive people. Average people date average people. And ugly people date other uggos. Such is like. 
 

However I’d argue for most prevailing in the dating world means meeting someone that you end up having a long meaningful relationship with, perhaps even starting a family with a building a life together. And being universally attractive or unnattractive has absolutely no influence on that. That’s all about compatibility. 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

If by “prevail” you mean are able to date other universally attractive people, then yes you’re right. Attractive people date attractive people. Average people date average people. And ugly people date other uggos. Such is like. 
 

However I’d argue for most prevailing in the dating world means meeting someone that you end up having a long meaningful relationship with, perhaps even starting a family with a building a life together. And being universally attractive or unnattractive has absolutely no influence on that. That’s all about compatibility. 

If you are not attractive you are instantly incompatible. Is that what dating app's are all about?

Again I'm born ugly I like attractive people so I guess I am pretty much in no man's land. Not compatible in other words which is probably why I can to some degree Mahr a decent attempt at being friends with people I do find attractive because they never seen me as anyone attractive. Makes sense.

Again I suppose it depends what each person wants no wrong answer. I'd love to date this lady but if the best I can do is a coffee every few months to me thats better than trying to find someone as ugly as me attractive. No self pity, just the truth.

Sure I'd always wish I was the sort she'd date but such is life.