Happiest women: no kids

[littleblackheart]

I'll say this gently leigh87 - you need to re-read some of your posts. There are so many twists and turns and backpedalling that it is difficult to keep up.

[JuneL]

The article doesn't matter, JuneL; the shift in societal expectations does.

 

Of course one is free to argue about the shift in societal expectations based on her experience and knowledge, but it’s bizarre to still cite that fraud “study” as the basis. If anything, that fraud “study” was evidence to the opposite of the author’s claim.

[littleblackheart]

I have no way of knowing that it advances the opposite of what the researcher meant to do, but it's basis for a discussion - how can that be a bad thing?

 

 

The fact we talk about it, regardless of how flawed the article (or the study itself, which I haven't read) is, the fact that women can now say they are single, child free and happy is what's good about it. We can use it as a platform to rethink stereotypes and judgement. I think that's good; I also tend to try and find a positive outcome or solution in most things. Probably why I'm 'happy'...

[JuneL]

“women can now say they are single, child free and happy is what's good about it.”

 

I thought some women have been saying that since the time I was born 40 years ago, no?

[Leigh 87]

The biggest issue with studies that try and quantify happiness...

 

Some child free women wish they had kids but are in denial, and some parents don't really enjoy being parents (despite loving their kids!)

 

So in surveys they may lie. Many won't even admit to themselves how they really feel. As Amazing Grace demonstrated, parents are crucified if they admit to not being any happier in their lives due to a child.

 

A lot of people aren't entirely honest with themselves as the truth hurts..so surveys on pain and emotions are devoid of value in my opinion.

 

All I know is that I know plenty of happy parent and plenty of happy childfree. But don't know many happy childless women as it takes a real resilience and strength to overcome that.

 

Some childfree women have sour grapes that now days, women have kids and a career and get to experience pretty much everything childfree women get access to..WITH their children; they wished they had kids and hate that they chose to miss out due to more superficial reasons..

[littleblackheart]

JuneL - Not really, no. Not everywhere, anyway.

 

The single, child-free woman has been portrayed and viewed by society as either morally (nymphomaniac), socially (outcast), emotionally (frigid, all over the place, in denial over sexuality) or physically (not attractive enough) deficient.

 

Now, she's not. This type of positive light is good, and helps cement the fact that people (not just women) have that choice. It's not really about who's 'happiest', it's about changes reflected more generally in society, imo.

 

You can disagree - that's totally fine. I'm not trying to convince you, or have an argument.

Edited June 12, 2019 by littleblackheart

[BloodRedRose]

While such studies have no substance in my opinion (as someone mentioned - happiness isn't something that can be measured and turned into a pie chart) I think it's important to talk about this and for women to know that they don't have to have children - in many countries it's still something you have to do by default. You grow up, you get married and you have children. That's just how life is and if you don't have any of those things, you're kinda viewed as a woman who hasn't succeeded in fixing your life. I'm originally from Latvia, a small country by the Baltic sea, now living in Western Europe, and all of my relatives kinda pity me. They don't understand my life choices.

[JuneL]

“You can disagree - that's totally fine. I'm not trying to convince you, or have an argument.”

 

Okay, let me make one last attempt...

 

Disagree about what? I just thought it’s irresponsible to perpetuate a fraud “study” (as others may just took its claim, which was based on a huge error on the author, as valid).

 

As far as I remember, there were plenty of threads on here about whether one is happier being single, way before this fraud “study” came along.

 

Anyway, I’ve said everything I need to say.

[Leigh 87]

I'll say this gently leigh87 - you need to re-read some of your posts. There are so many twists and turns and backpedalling that it is difficult to keep up.

 

 

What I meant is basically that studies on pain and emotions can never really mean much.

 

Child free women can have sour grapes while parents can be in denial about how underwhelming parenting was compared to the elated state of eternal bliss that mum's usually tell expecting new mums....

 

Neither will necessarily be honest even in anonymous surveys. Many aren't even honest with themselves.

 

So childfree women aren't entirely honest with themselves whilst many parents know they will be crucified for admiring that parenthood wasn't what it was cracked up to me (to them).

 

Some child free women end up wanting kids and feel quite depressed when they realise in 2019, they could have also had a career, friends and a full life in addition to kids. They realised they put off kids for the wrong reasons or perhaps they couldn't find a partner and don't want to admit that missing it on children bothers them so they protest too much and extol the virtues of being child free.

 

I had a lady I used to know do this. She should post on social media about how amazing it was to be without kids. Anyone who has to say it that loud clearly isn't happy about it...I always felt she was secretly depressed because she couldn't even find a partner.

 

I also have been told my parents who were too ashamed to even admit to themselves that they didn't become happier just because of their child. They could barley admit to themselves that being a parent wasn't something they actually enjoyed much despite dearly loving their kids ...

 

So in surveys regarding emotions, it's impossible to get any true reflection of how the general population feel at large when some participants may be in denial about how they really feel.

 

I don't believe that woman I once knew would ever admit to herself that she felt pangs of sadness for missing out on kids. But who knows if I am even right in my assessment of her state of well-being ? I guess I just figure that anyone who has to declare how happy they are about one thing or another, is more than likely NOT as happy as they brag about... People who truly are content are too busy enjoying life to talk about it. Just a feeling I got from her.....

 

Amasyn Grace has demonstrated how the public demonize parents who don't actually love rte actual day to day life of being a parent. People seem to believe that parents have a magic pill to happiness and the ones who don't particularly enjoy parenting are monsters.

 

I find that most parents tend to feel sorry for childfree and childless. Maybe that is why these surveys came about?

[Leigh 87]

While such studies have no substance in my opinion (as someone mentioned - happiness isn't something that can be measured and turned into a pie chart) I think it's important to talk about this and for women to know that they don't have to have children - in many countries it's still something you have to do by default. You grow up, you get married and you have children. That's just how life is and if you don't have any of those things, you're kinda viewed as a woman who hasn't succeeded in fixing your life. I'm originally from Latvia, a small country by the Baltic sea, now living in Western Europe, and all of my relatives kinda pity me. They don't understand my life choices.

 

 

Ugh. The pity thing. I can't stand how women feel sorry for me when I tell them I may not be able to have children.

 

I always figured that most people don't WANT to be anyone else other than themselves? Like .. I still want to be ME, I wouldn't want to be THEM because they got to experience motherhood....

 

I never got the notion of "wow you missed out on kids, thank God I'm not you"..

.

Before the infertility crap, it never occurred to me that anyone would even give thought to feeling relief that they weren't us.

 

I've always just been glad to be me even when my life was not going well.

 

So yep, the being felt sorry for is one of the worst parts of being childless not by choice.

[littleblackheart]

I got your point, JuneL - the 'study' is flawed, according to a source. I don't really know to what extent it's flawed - as I said, I've not read the study itself or had a look at the criteria and subjects used, and I don't want to base my opinion on someone else's opinion.

 

Meanwhile, tens of articles in high circulation magazines used Prof Dolan's work (no matter how flawed, the guy is still the Head of Department and Professor of Behavioural Science at LSE, so he's not a complete idiot) to start a talk that previously didn't exist on child-free, single women and how they are perceived in society.

 

Threads on LS are good, but they are not reflective of wider society / various cultural habits.

 

Unless you're a behavioural scientist yourself, and can show exactly how and why this work is so flawed, I guess I don't really understand why this is such an issue in the scheme of things. Discussions and confronting personal views are always a good learning experience.

[JuneL]

“Unless you're a behavioural scientist yourself, and can show exactly how and why this work is so flawed, I guess I don't really understand why this is such an issue in the scheme of things. Discussions and confronting personal views are always a good learning experience.”

 

Sorry I feel obliged to reply to this one. Did you even read my short post #123? It doesn’t take an Einstein to understand why his “study” was fraud. His error, though gigantic, was a very low level one. The guy misunderstood the labeling of a certain field in the dataset he used. Other (less careless) people had used the same dataset before him and pointed out his error.

[littleblackheart]

We're going round in circles, it seems. Really, I get it. This study is flawed. This doesn't mean all of Dolan's body of work on this is also wrong.

 

And even if this is all completely and utterly wrong, it's getting a conversation going that wasn't previously there. A negative turned into a positive. I think it's good.

[JuneL]

We're going round in circles, it seems. Really, I get it. This study is flawed. This doesn't mean all of Dolan's body of work on this is also wrong.

 

And even if this is all completely and utterly wrong, it's getting a conversation going that didn't previously. A negative turned into a positive. I think it's good.

 

We’re not going around in circles. I answered exactly how and why his study was fraud.

 

As for turning a negative into a positive, I guess the same can be said of Trump’s claims on climatic change :laugh:

Edited June 12, 2019 by JuneL

[BloodRedRose]

Ugh. The pity thing. I can't stand how women feel sorry for me when I tell them I may not be able to have children. I always figured that most people don't WANT to be anyone else other than themselves? Like .. I still want to be ME, I wouldn't want to be THEM because they got to experience motherhood...

 

I guess being pitied for not having children when you actually want and can't have them feels even worse... But even someone like me who doesn't want children sometimes feels affected by that - it might throw me off for a split second and make me think "are they right? Am I missing out?" but then I come to my own senses and realise they aren't right in my case.

 

The worst was a comment from my mom's cousin, who's eldest (my age) now has two children, and both younger ones also has new babies - "What will you do when you're older and everyone you know will be spending Christmas with their children? Even if someone invites you over, won't you feel lonely among them?". Wow, really? She really thinks that people who don't feel lonely on their own don't exist! And even if I wouldn't, who says something like that?

 

Btw if I remember your thread, Leigh, you have some condition that doesn't allow you to get pregnant so easily? I have that too. So even if I wanted children I probably wouldn't have them

Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[littleblackheart]

I answered exactly how and why his study was fraud

 

So I did a quick search on that wiki link you provided (professional deformation, sorry!) - the problem is not with the single, child-free women subdata set, it's with the married couples being more or less happy than the single ones. So this doesn't affect at all the 'happiness' level of the single, child-free women; it only invalidates the comparison (not the same thing at all!)

 

This article is therefore still entirely valid as far as promoting single, child-free women and the shift in how they are perceived, and perceive themselves.

Edited June 12, 2019 by littleblackheart

[JuneL]

So I did a quick search on that wiki link you provided (professional deformation, sorry!) - the problem is not with the single, child-free women subdata set, it's with the married couples being more or less happy than the single ones.....

 

His conclusion WAS about their relative happiness. It’s a meaningless to evaluate the happiness of a certain group of individuals at a single one point without any reference point, like comparison against another group or another point of time.

 

And how is it professional deformation, when one pointed out an objective error that makes or breaks the main claim of his book?

 

Anyway, we shouldn’t digress the thread. I’ll avoid the temptation to come back.

Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[amaysngrace]

Amasyn Grace has demonstrated how the public demonize parents who don't actually love rte actual day to day life of being a parent.

 

I’m getting a bit tired of you putting words in my mouth Leigh. I actually said it’s easier for a childless woman than it is for the mom of toddlers.

 

I never once mentioned day to day life of parenting other than that and I certainly didn’t demonize people for it.

Edited June 12, 2019 by amaysngrace

[Kitty Tantrum]

This must be something that varies by region and subculture, because I've never been under the impression that "child-free women can be happy, too!" was some new or radical idea. Quite on the contrary, for the entirety of my life I've been PRIMARILY warned AGAINST having children on the basis that it might make me miserable, and that I first need to "find myself" and make sure it's what I really want and not just something that was pushed on me as a tool of patriarchal oppression.

 

 

Obviously not everybody needs to get married and have children in order to be happy, but I've known an awful lot of women who have actively chosen to ignore their ticking biological clock and defy their biological imperative in favor of more modern, independent pursuits of happiness... and, uhhh, none of them ended up happy about it.

 

 

To put it boldly, I think these claims are bunk. I think this "study" was published to promote a particular lifestyle - the living of which, by the general masses, is beneficial in whatever various ways to whichever persons or entities funded it. This is not a new or radical idea, either. It is pretty widely known (as in, some of this is coming from my psych 101 professor back in college) that the field of psychology has been used by "experts" for the purpose of manipulating the behavior of populations pretty much since its inception.

 

 

It's not hard to collect and present data in a way that appears to strongly support an idea; ANY idea. The one MAJOR issue with the interpretation of the data in this "study" that has already been pointed out is likely only the tip of the iceberg. No sign anywhere points to this being legitimate scholarly work.

[Leigh 87]

I’m getting a bit tired of you putting words in my mouth Leigh. I actually said it’s easier for a childless woman than it is for the mom of toddlers.

 

I never once mentioned day to day life of parenting other than that and I certainly didn’t demonize people for it.

 

 

You said that parents are happier than non parents basically ...

 

You seem to dispell the idea of childfree people being as happy as you since you had children and they didn't

 

Most women think like this. That they are happier than childfree women. It's no wonder why studies like that are carried out. To dispel the myth that all parents are magically happier people.

[amaysngrace]

You said that all parents are happier than non parents.

 

No I didn’t. I never once said that.

 

Please stop saying things that just aren’t true.

[littleblackheart]

Religion, historically, has a much longer history than psychology in coercing people into doing things one way.

 

This is not scholarly work, never has it been claimed to be academic research, not by Dolan , not by anyone who published it- it's a book (so not peer-reviewed), the main ideas within it being published in several articles.

 

There was a misinterpretation (a problem in itself yes, but researchers here know it happens), Dolan admitted to it. Making it more than it actually is, and invalidating his whole body of work (he's been working on the concept of 'happiness' for years) is weird to me.

 

On the subject of women being single, child-free and happy (the actual subject of Dolan's work - the comparison really doesn't matter in the scheme of things): of course it's a cultural / religious thing... How many women, still now, marry to fit the socially accepted premise that living outside of marriage is a sin, and being child less is a problem? How many women become baby-making machines following a century-long of social conditioning on how marriage is great and kids are needed to 'preserve the human race'? How many are still stuck in misery and poverty in a marriage they don't want because they don't have the financial means to sever ties? How many women are being scolded still, on these boards even, for putting career above everything else as though it's an issue?

 

How is it so difficult to consider what is outside of one's little bubble? You live in a privileged part of the world where women can be child free and single without being shunned and stigmatised? Great, so do I. Lucky us. It's not a bad idea to look beyond your own comfort zone, though - blatantly, it's not the case everywhere. that's why these articles (and these books) promoting the idea of individual, responsible choice are a good thing (imo).

Edited June 12, 2019 by littleblackheart

[JuneL]

Who is invalidating the guy’s body of work?

 

I see one can intentionally use some grossly false evidence just to perpetuate her views. Donald Trump much?

[Kitty Tantrum]

But see, that's the rub: I grew up in a time and place where the things I genuinely wanted most in life made ME the pariah: shunned, stigmatized, belittled - to the point where I sought refuge in a conservative religious community even though I was never entirely sold on its spiritual premise.

 

That's the reality of my "bubble." This narrative, when it plays out far enough, isn't about every individual making a responsible self-governed choice, it's about manipulating choice to effect widespread behavioral change in populations - often in the service of some fairly narrow interests.

 

Religion may have a longer history of controlling and manipulating human behavior, but that's a pretty silly justification for conflating the idea of freedom, liberty, etc. with something that amounts to a different flavor of the same thing you claim to oppose on principle in your criticisms of the religious model.

[littleblackheart]

I'm not claiming to oppose the religious model. I'm just saying compared to psychology (the point you were making earlier), there is no debate as to which has been subjugating people the longest.

 

Also, I didn't really give too much intellectual thought to this. I don't judge others' choices by my own values and personal experiences, and I know enough single, child free women to know that they have their own agency in the life choice they have made.

 

The truth is we don't currently offer a genuine level playing field in terms of equality of opportunity; at present, singles outnumber married couples in the USA. Some younger men won't marry because they are scared of being financially hit post-divorce, and some women won't have kids because they don't want to end up a single parent or sacrificing their career. Unless you come from an educated / privileged background or you're so poor it doesn't matter either way, these are fair reasons not to want to enter into a committed relationship.

 

In those circumstances, you let people have the choice and / or you restore some form of social equality (in parental leave, work-life balance, minimum wage, health costs, more social cohesion and sense of community). Those who can afford to be married and have kids do that anyway, regardless of religious background.