Happiest women: no kids

[amaysngrace]

It doesn’t seem like you possess the wisdom which you claim all parents have.

 

I never said that Betty. I’m seriously surprised you need to resort to fabricated insults the way you do with all that happiness you’re basking in.

[BettyDraper]

For all the parents who complain on LS (not a place where happy people abound...) because they happen to be in a bind, for all the parents who do struggle with bonding with their children (it happens for sure), for those who struggle because they are looking after disabled children, for those who struggle because they can't afford to look after their children properly, there are a lot of parents who are 'happy'......

 

I was specifically referring to those who experience more marital difficulties after having children. It's easy to understand how parenting can take a toll on marriage. However, it's certainly possible for parents to enjoy happy marriages while raising children.

 

Every type of relationship is a crapshoot. Marriage and children are not panaceas for unhappiness.

 

I wish that more parents were honest about the less desirable aspects of having children because maybe more people would go into it with more realistic expectations.

Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[thefooloftheyear]

A lot of people just generally bItch about some things that may be hard, but also rewarding.......Jobs, kids, exercise...They accentuate the negative aspects, despite the obvious positives...I do it sometimes, myself....

 

TFY

[littleblackheart]

Focusing on the negative parts of parenthood isn't the same thing as seeing things from someone else's perspective, though: you're still looking at it from the 'having kids is not great' prism of someone who made the choice not to have any, but...

 

I wish that more parents were honest about the less desirable aspects of having children because maybe more people would go into it with more realistic expectations.

 

 

I agree there. The more honest you are, the easier things get around you and for you. As a single working parent on the autism spectrum with a kid on the autism spectrum and a highly sensitive emotional kid, I have a bagful of horror stories involving them. Yet, I choose to focus on the (very, very) awesome moments and deep love I have for my kids.

 

Sure, parents vent a lot, but this doesn't mean they aren't 'happy' (whatever that means). Many, many parents are fulfilled in their responsibility as parents. This is not a myth. I wish more child-free people realised that parenthood is not a chore.

 

My personal outlook (that I share with Dolan) is that 'happiness' is something you work on conscientiously, continuously, actively - I have a strong positive outlook on life that is a deliberate thing.

 

This is why this essence of this article (and any work on 'happiness' in general) is great - it helps promote the idea that you can be happy yourself in a way that is different to someone else's, not better, not worse, just different.

 

Happiness = being at peace with your own choices, respecting those of others, and focusing on finding positive solutions (imo). It works whether single, married, straight, gay, child free or with a dozen kids.

[serial muse]

I did read the original link, which goes to a Twitter thread by a sociologist who explains in detail why the claim is flawed, and mentions several other concerns. That doesn't invalidate the concept that women who are childfree and unmarried can be very happy!

 

I do think, though, that Dolan's initial representation of his findings sets up the problem as "women are happier doing this than that", which is inherently problematic, regardless of which side of the line one falls on. It's true that this stems from his book rather than from a peer-reviewed paper, but given the clear resonance that the claim has had, and the way it would of course get disseminated widely and get used as a justification for whatever one wants, I think it's pretty irresponsible.

 

His big claim at a recent public speaking event, that married women admit they are "****ing miserable" when their spouse isn't in the room, is one that he has had to walk back, and for which he issued a correction to his book. He admitted that he misinterpreted the data.

 

FWIW, here's the actual Twitter thread by sociologist Gary Kimbrough that notes the flaw in the interpretation:

 

Dolan now says that his larger point is that women should be free to make choices. Um, yes! But it's the comparison itself that is fraught and unprovable with the given data.

 

Had he presented the finding as "plenty of unmarried women without children turn out to be quite happy in their choices, as any clear-thinking person would absolutely expect" then I at least would have nodded sagely and moved on.

 

Even if his heart is in the right place, as it apparently is, it's counterproductive to do this sort of thing. Sloppy misrepresentations of data never help! The scientist in me just cringes at all this.

 

Also, and this is just my opinion, but maybe it's not necessary for a dude to jump in and explain to all these women something that they're perfectly capable of knowing about themselves. Did they need that external validation? Whether the idea that a dude's opinion on the matter makes it societally "OK" seems...at the very least a pretty debatable point. I mean, thanks for the thumbs-up, guy, but...I think that happily child-free, marriage-free women are good. You know?

Edited June 13, 2019 by serial muse

[littleblackheart]

Right - his misinterpretation hasn't invalidated his theory, so previous posters calling it a 'fraud' and a 'contradiction' to his thesis are off the mark.

 

Personally, I'm not above errors in my research so I don't let these things colour my judgement on his overall work. The guy who picked up on the error originally (not Kimbrough) has his own pro-marriage agenda anyway, as is often the case when an academic decides to pick holes in another academic's work.

 

So because a man says it, it's an issue? He's not just written this book - this is only a tiny part of his larger work on 'happiness', that he actually conceptualised well (even his critics acknowledge that).

 

Single, child-free women have been saying that they're happy for centuries and no-one believed them - not even other women...

 

Besides, this is not just a 'western world' centric thing; plenty of other women across the world (even in the more conservative / religious 'civilised west parts) still feel like they have to follow social conventions because 'marriage is best','having children is the thing to do to populate the planet'. Perhaps I missed the obvious feminist angle (I'm not obsessed with in anyway) but I thought a positive that man promotes that idea that single, child free women are happy too (I don't care for the comparison with married people either - it's irrelevant, but it's not even the most important thing in his work).

 

It's unfortunate that big theoretical concepts are being reduced to simple gimmicks, but at least it gets people talking; always a good thing.

Edited June 13, 2019 by littleblackheart

[eleanorrigby]

While I’m happy that I had my kids, when I look over my life, what i enjoy/ed, the type of person I am, my limitations and my strengths, I realize I would have been better suited to a childless life.

 

I look at my husband and see the opposite.

 

So at the end of the day, I’m glad we had the experience.

But from this vantage point, I think I could have been just as happy if not happier in a childless timeline.

[BettyDraper]

A lot of people just generally bItch about some things that may be hard, but also rewarding.......Jobs, kids, exercise...They accentuate the negative aspects, despite the obvious positives...I do it sometimes, myself....

 

TFY

 

Focusing on the negative parts of parenthood isn't the same thing as seeing things from someone else's perspective, though: you're still looking at it from the 'having kids is not great' prism of someone who made the choice not to have any, but...

 

 

Sure, parents vent a lot, but this doesn't mean they aren't 'happy' (whatever that means). Many, many parents are fulfilled in their responsibility as parents. This is not a myth. I wish more child-free people realised that parenthood is not a chore.

 

My personal outlook (that I share with Dolan) is that 'happiness' is something you work on conscientiously, continuously, actively - I have a strong positive outlook on life that is a deliberate thing.

 

This is why this essence of this article (and any work on 'happiness' in general) is great - it helps promote the idea that you can be happy yourself in a way that is different to someone else's, not better, not worse, just different.

 

Happiness = being at peace with your own choices, respecting those of others, and focusing on finding positive solutions (imo). It works whether single, married, straight, gay, child free or with a dozen kids.

 

The point is that not every parent experiences joy when they decide to bring children into the world. It's myopic to assume that every parent enjoys having children as much as you do, just as it is shortsighted for the childfree to think that parents can never be happy.

 

Life is not black and white. There is a lot of grey.

 

 

People who think in absolutes will find it hard to gain credibility. It's also very lazy thinking to believe that your personal experience is the same for everyone. For example, I hate honeydew melon. Should I assume that everyone should hate that fruit just because I do? No because that would be stupid.

 

 

In spite of research and my observations, I honestly believe that people can learn to be happy with any situation and happiness is highly subjective. Parents who focus on what they have given up to raise children will certainly be unhappy. Conversely, parents who think about how their children have enriched their lives will usually find more satisfaction in parenting.

 

In order to reiterate my balanced viewpoint and show that your summations about my seeing parenting as all negative are incorrect, I have quoted posts that I have made in this thread so that both of you can read them again.

 

Mods, I hope I have cut out the irrelevant sections to your satisfaction. I'm sorry if I have not....I am a bit confused about the new quoting rules.

[BettyDraper]

While I’m happy that I had my kids, when I look over my life, what i enjoy/ed, the type of person I am, my limitations and my strengths, I realize I would have been better suited to a childless life.

 

I look at my husband and see the opposite.

 

So at the end of the day, I’m glad we had the experience.

But from this vantage point, I think I could have been just as happy if not happier in a childless timeline.

 

It takes courage to admit that.

It doesn't make you "vile" or some kind of evil Mommy dearest type.

 

My personal experience has been that the parents who thoroughly loathe parenting and resent their children usually pressure me the most. I'm not referring to occasional venting. I'm talking about parents who say that they wish they never had kids or constantly talk about what they could do if they didn't have children. It's one thing to feel that way but quite another to say it out loud....especially with offspring in earshot!

 

The old adage "Misery loves company" comes to mind. I understand that not every parent is mentally hanging by a thread though.

 

One of my dearest friends is going through a divorce. She has confided in me that though she loves her second child, she believes that her marriage would have been successful if she and her STBXH didn't have him. I told her that it wasn't fair to blame her son for the state of her marriage. The little boy didn't ask to be born.

[littleblackheart]

In order to reiterate my balanced viewpoint and show that your summations about my seeing parenting as all negative are incorrect, I have quoted posts that I have made in this thread so that both of you can read them again.

 

Thanks.

 

The overall perception that comes out of your posts (not just the bolded parts - the examples you give repeatedly for instance, not least your newest post) is that you are focusing on the negative aspects of parenthood. This may be unconscious on your part, but it's quite blatantly there (and maybe this makes sense in light of your own personal experience) That's my simple observation as a reader, not a personal attack, btw.

 

For me personally, there are a bunch of things I wish I had handled differently and quite a few limitations that prevent me from achieving more, but parenthood isn't one of them.

[eleanorrigby]

It takes courage to admit that.

It doesn't make you "vile" or some kind of evil Mommy dearest type.

 

Right. It's just my perspective from a life half lived, and I regret nothing. I'm glad I had kids, but I wouldn't have been diminished without them.

[BettyDraper]

Thanks.

 

The overall perception that comes out of your posts (not just the bolded parts - the examples you give repeatedly for instance, not least your newest post) is that you are focusing on the negative aspects of parenthood. This may be unconscious on your part, but it's quite blatantly there (and maybe this makes sense in light of your own personal experience) That's my simple observation as a reader, not a personal attack, btw.

 

For me personally, there are a bunch of things I wish I had handled differently and quite a few limitations that prevent me from achieving more, but parenthood isn't one of them.

 

I don't feel attacked at all. I just felt that your perception is incorrect.

The examples I give are in the context of countering the preposterous ideas that childfree folks are doomed to loneliness or cannot know joy.

 

It's great that you enjoy parenting and even better that you are rational and intelligent enough to understand that your path is not the only valid or worthwhile one to take.

[littleblackheart]

The examples I give are in the context of countering the preposterous ideas that childfree folks are doomed to loneliness or cannot know joy.

 

Understood and agreed.

 

Likewise, being comfortable in your own choices as a child-free woman can only provide a positive model to those LS lurkers around the globe in need of reassurance that a child-free life chosen with confidence and without apologies is a life well lived.

[thefooloftheyear]

My personal experience has been that the parents who thoroughly loathe parenting and resent their children usually pressure me the most. I'm not referring to occasional venting. I'm talking about parents who say that they wish they never had kids or constantly talk about what they could do if they didn't have children. It's one thing to feel that way but quite another to say it out loud....especially with offspring in earshot!

 

T.

 

You state in a previous post:

 

"Can we all please stop using anecdotal evidence as data?

 

The people we know cannot possibly represent a large enough sample size to draw conclusions from"

 

Yet you use "people you know" to substantiate the other side, one which if I am honest is one of the most bizarre and unrealistic I can think of....Never in my entire life have I heard anything remotely on that level...People saying they thoroughly loathe being a parent and resent their own kids within earshot? Never...ever....It may even rise to a level of a CPS call or at the very least question the type of people I chose to be in the company of...

 

just sayin'

 

TFY

[lana-banana]

There are entire internet forums just like this one full of people who resent and regret having children (the forum I Regret Having Children, its public-facing Facebook page, as well as the Reddit boards, among others). It's not uncommon at all. And in every situation it's clear that the parents all love their children very much, while resentful of the burden they place on their lives and realizing it was a decision they wish they could take back. You can literally just Google "regret having kids" and find millions of stories.

 

My friends who are parents have much more stress and frustrations than I do, but they seem very happy with their life choices. I'm very happy too. Things go well when people are free to lead the lives they want

[BettyDraper]

 

Yet you use "people you know" to substantiate the other side, one which if I am honest is one of the most bizarre and unrealistic I can think of....Never in my entire life have I heard anything remotely on that level...People saying they thoroughly loathe being a parent and resent their own kids within earshot? Never...ever....It may even rise to a level of a CPS call or at the very least question the type of people I chose to be in the company of...

 

just sayin'

 

TFY

 

I specifically used the words "My personal experience" which indicates the same anecdotal evidence that I was warning everyone else about.

 

What may seem bizarre to you may not be to someone else. That is why personal experiences are different from hard evidence. Good try though. I'm getting embarrassed for LS members who challenge me using faulty logic and poor reading comprehension. Some of you need to quit while you're ahead because you're starting to look very silly.

 

Good Lord...I would hope that you wouldn't call CPS because of a mere comment and no evidence of child abuse. What a huge overreaction and a waste of resources! If every person had the authorities called on them just because they made unpleasant comments, everyone would be in prison by now and I would hate to live in a dictatorial police state like that.

Edited June 14, 2019 by BettyDraper

[BettyDraper]

There are entire internet forums just like this one full of people who resent and regret having children (the forum I Regret Having Children, its public-facing Facebook page, as well as the Reddit boards, among others). It's not uncommon at all. And in every situation it's clear that the parents all love their children very much, while resentful of the burden they place on their lives and realizing it was a decision they wish they could take back. You can literally just Google "regret having kids" and find millions of stories.

 

My friends who are parents have much more stress and frustrations than I do, but they seem very happy with their life choices. I'm very happy too. Things go well when people are free to lead the lives they want

 

It's obvious that the parents who have had irrational knee jerk reactions in this thread have not done any research. I can understand why because the idea of parents regretting having children is frightening to anyone who has chosen to raise offspring.

 

I have seen more than one study which suggests that higher intelligence and education levels make it less likely that people will have children or at least least lead to smaller families. I didn't like those studies because they seemed deeply flawed, divisive, and groundless. Admittedly, some of the posts in this thread make me wonder if there is any truth to those studies....but I know that LS doesn't represent a wide enough swath of society to come to such a reckless conclusion. Sometimes emotional topics lead to emotional responses which may seem nonsensical.

[BettyDraper]

Understood and agreed.

 

Likewise, being comfortable in your own choices as a child-free woman can only provide a positive model to those LS lurkers around the globe in need of reassurance that a child-free life chosen with confidence and without apologies is a life well lived.

 

Thanks! I appreciate your kind words.

 

Most rewarding tasks are at least somewhat trying. For example, I love being married but I will never say that it's easy all the time. In fact, marriage can be very difficult. That doesn't mean it's not worth it.

 

I would never be so imperceptive as to believe that single women can never know pure joy just because they aren't wives. What on earth?

[Leigh 87]

That is so sad - like saying "the happiest people are the lonely people".

 

Usually that's the biggest regret of people in the end of their life - not having family, no one left after them...

 

Women are extremely sensitive to the subject - it's quite possibly the most traumatic thing that a woman can have in her life - not to be able to experience her womanhood through pregnancy and childbirth... So rationalizing her 'choice' makes perfect sense.

 

Infertility is still a big stigma, which is why the 'statistics' are so skewed.

 

And those women find joy and fulfilment in different ways while dealing with the trauma of a lost dream and unfulfilled desire .....

 

Happiness can be a choice you know. Except there are based of chemical imbalances with or without children, where even meds can't really result in a very high level of happy feelings....they more numb the depression/ imbalances....

 

But even without children one can definitely still end feeling for the most part, really as happy as a parent. It's just a different type of joy. The joy from a child is immense and very different to the way a childless or childfree woman experiences daily joy.

 

Prent or not, happiness is not a given .

 

And I don't think whether or not one has kids has a lot to do with overall daily contentment levels except in cases where a woman was utterly desperate to be a mother yet couldn't.

 

Then I suspect it would take a lifetime of therapy and moving on before they were as happy as most happy parents would be.

 

But yeah, chemical depression in even mother's who love being mum's can impact daily contentment. As can a crappy relationship they don't leave for the kids. And also some women don't enjoy being mum's so...

 

Overall I suspect the overall level of contentment one feels hinges largely on their chemicals make up, their health and making positive choices......

[thefooloftheyear]

I specifically used the words "My personal experience" which indicates the same anecdotal evidence that I was warning everyone else about.

 

.

 

So then why would you do it?? You said "can we stop"....

 

nevermind..'

 

But it really reeks like a sour grapes scenario..."I cant have it or didn't do it so it absolutely must be horrible"...I am sure you heard that story...

 

Otherwise why do people need validation for what they do or not do by shytting on what other people do?? There are at least a dozen major life decisions I would like to have back or may question it now, but who cares? I'm never going to start any crusade, join a support group, or anything else to make me feel better about it...It is what it is..

 

TFY

Edited June 14, 2019 by thefooloftheyear

[Leigh 87]

Thanks! I appreciate your kind words.

 

Most rewarding tasks are at least somewhat trying. For example, I love being married but I will never say that it's easy all the time. In fact, marriage can be very difficult. That doesn't mean it's not worth it.

 

I would never be so imperceptive as to believe that single women can never know pure joy just because they aren't wives. What on earth?

 

 

Apparently the joy of a child automatically makes your everyday life in a constant state of superior happiness that non partners can't ever know LOL.

 

Like I get it, the joy of a child is a stronger intensity than non parents will ever feel.

 

But feeling more intense emotions than a non parent isn't an automatic ticket to being HAPPY on a constant daily basis

 

Parents basically often think that without experiencing that higher and more intense peak of joy that we can't possibly be as happy overall on a day to day basis as a parent.

[littleblackheart]

It"s a bit strange that an article on happiness and being single and child free has turned into highlighting some parents' misery at being parents - exactly the opposite to the spirit of the article...It's not a parents vs child-free battle. Must be LS magic!

 

I would never be so imperceptive as to believe that single women can never know pure joy just because they aren't wives. What on earth?

 

For sure. The single part is actually an important aspect of the article.

 

There are a number of reasons for individuals to be single; sometimes, it's a default choice (in the same way as being parents or child free can be a default choice) but society is finding it difficult to accept that being single can also be a full on deliberate thing.

 

There still are so many places where marriage is seen as the only respectable way for people (not just women - men too have to endure forced or arranged marriages in some cultures) to live their lives, that a single person is deficient or in denial or lonely or.....

 

You don't need to be a part of a couple to lead a fulfilled life, in the same way you don't need kids, whatever society or the people around you are trying to tell you.

 

Live your life by your own standards and values while being respectful of others, and proactively work at being positive even in the face of adversity; that's all you need to do.

Edited June 14, 2019 by littleblackheart

[Eternal Sunshine]

It"s a bit strange that an article on happiness and being single and child free has turned into highlighting some parents' misery at being parents - exactly the opposite to the spirit of the article...It's not a parents vs child-free battle. Must be LS magic!

 

 

 

For sure. The single part is actually an important aspect of the article.

 

There are a number of reasons for individuals to be single; sometimes, it's a default choice (in the same way as being parents or child free can be a default choice) but society is finding it difficult to accept that being single can also be a full on deliberate thing.

 

There still are so many places where marriage is seen as the only respectable way for people (not just women - men too have to endure forced or arranged marriages in some cultures) to live their lives, that a single person is deficient or in denial or lonely or.....

 

You don't need to be a part of a couple to lead a fulfilled life, in the same way you don't need kids, whatever society or the people around you are trying to tell you.

 

Live your life by your own standards and values while being respectful of others, and proactively work at being positive even in the face of adversity; that's all you need to do.

 

 

Exactly. Articles like that one are there to counter balance all the shyte that single and childfree put up with from society all the time. For some of us it's a choice that genuinely makes us happier. Some of us have pushed themselves to be in relationships just to be "normal". Similar to gay people pushing themselves to be hetero to be accepted. Not exactly a foreign concept.

 

 

I have met single and childfree people that openly admit that it wasn't by choice. They say something like "it just didn't work out for me". I myself occasionally still use that line because people like me way more than when I say the truth. When I found first childfree online forum, I was so happy, I didn't sleep all night.

 

 

 

All we ask for is not to have BS like "nobody can be truly happy without children" being thrown at us all the time.

[JuneL]

 

[...]

 

It's true that this stems from his book rather than from a peer-reviewed paper, but given the clear resonance that the claim has had, and the way it would of course get disseminated widely and get used as a justification for whatever one wants, I think it's pretty irresponsible.

 

[...]

 

Even if his heart is in the right place, as it apparently is, it's counterproductive to do this sort of thing. Sloppy misrepresentations of data never help! The scientist in me just cringes at all this.

 

[...]

 

Personally I don’t believe the guy deliberately wanted to mislead people; it was obviously a very careless, though enormous, mistake.

 

His headline claims (especially those in tabloid outlets) may help catch some eyeballs initially, but such a practice will backfire and do more harms to single women without kids eventually, when people learn that such claims as “married women are miserable”, “single women without kids make the happiest subgroup” are not valid conclusions from the data he used. Some may even conclude that the guy deliberately lied to promote his agenda, which I personally don’t believe was the case.

[pepperbird]

Can we all please stop using anecdotal evidence as data?

 

 

Really, who cares about a study anyway?

 

 

What difference does it make? If you (general you) want to have children and it's an important consideration, then have kids. If having children isn't something you want, then don't have any.

 

problem solved. If one feels they need a study to validate their life choices, then I would gently suggest they need to do some introspection.

 

Personally, I'd rather have my kids than the career I gave up. That's fine with me and I'm happy. That doesn't mean everyone else would be, but that doesn't take anything away from how I feel about it.