basil67 Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I think I only ever met one lady who was truly glowing/happy with being a mother. In it's literal sense, it's not hard for me to believe. The concept of being glowingly happy with parenthood sounds a bit Disney to me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 This gets near what I am describing- an interesting take on victimhood vs responsibility to the self: https://quillette.com/2017/01/30/feminism-needs-to-talk-about-responsibility-not-just-rights/ Username, the link you gave doesn't work. However this website is a alt-right and their articles on feminism are criticisms of feminism. The fact that someone wrote something on the internet doesn't make it true. If you want me to believe that feminism says that women expect men look after them, show me where this is written in articles by respected mainstream feminists who have a decent following. Then you'll have my attention. In the meantime, I'm calling BS on this being an actual thing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author aguy123 Posted June 11, 2019 Author Share Posted June 11, 2019 wow, a LOT to catch up on reading! I'd say our entire society is built wrong from the ground up, causing most of its problems - but that is a whole other topic for another day Link to post Share on other sites
Tamfana Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) @ TFY No, it isn't a new Audi or shore house. Where my daughter and son-in-law (both 32) live now, childcare costs $2,200/mo/child and parking for one car outside is $900/mo. They pay $8k/yr real estate taxes, high state, city, and sales taxes too. Housing and other expenses are similarly high. Now add the future outlook for them—rising deficit, cuts to education that will decrease US competitiveness, guns everywhere, removing protections against environmental contamination, growing poverty and growing wealth for the very few, our cheap-skating out on maintaining infrastructure, increasing corruption, tariff games (which usually cause inflation), attacks on voting rights and women’s rights and it’s really not great. Why invest here or raise children here when there are better choices? D1 and SIL emigrate to Denmark August 1 where they will start their family and raise their children. It's not logical to stay here either financially or culturally. SIL chose a job in DK over offers in the DC and Cupertino for much more money. When they ran the numbers in DK vs Chicago at equivalent current incomes, they’d net more in DK (none of us expected that!) plus have cheap or free childcare, education, healthcare, and long term investment on infrastructure and green energy. They might not even get a car for a while because everyone bikes- so probably be healthier too. No, they're not jackasses and they’re not stupid. And lots of young talented Americans are leaving after very rational analysis. (Plus who wants to work to pay for our social security and our medicare, our debt and our corporate skyboxes and business dinners, as we - old people- verbally bludgeon them? ) Edited June 12, 2019 by Tamfana 2 Link to post Share on other sites
lana-banana Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Kids are less important to me than enjoying my life. Am I supposed to be ashamed of that? I love my life as it is now. Why would I make a decision that would disrupt my current situation and make me unhappy, stressed, and significantly lower our financial standing? Am I supposed to feel bad because we don't want kids and are happy telling everyone that? I have to say, it's profoundly disturbing to see how many men resent women for making their own choices about their lives. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Google it. New research just came out. I'd say their research makes a ton of sense, because, yes, children take a LOT of personal investment, sucking away at personal (selfish?) happiness. Also guessing that age group is more the youngers who haven't reached "that age" yet, where they think "Gosh, what if I miss out on having a blessed event?" So, yeah, life is happier enjoying and finding yourself. Kind of a no brainer. Yet gives me hope for finding child free women. This is not new. There have been many studies which speak of the decline in marital satisfaction after kids arrive. Couples are happiest before children arrive and after the kids leave the nest. Having children often keeps couples together whether they want to be together or not. Parenting is also much harder on women than men. Couples have children due to a combination of natural urges to reproduce and societal pressure. Very few take the time to question whether or not they actually want to live a life which is hampered by parenting. Another common issue is that few couples take the time to think of the less desirable aspects of parenting and then they get such a rude awakening once their children are born. They think parenting is all joy and Kodak moments. In spite of research and my observations, I honestly believe that people can learn to be happy with any situation and happiness is highly subjective. Parents who focus on what they have given up to raise children will certainly be unhappy. Conversely, parents who think about how their children have enriched their lives will usually find more satisfaction in parenting. It makes sense that people will become defensive when they feel that their choices are being criticized. Unfortunately, parents often feel the need to vilify the childfree. Sometimes this is due to jealousy or encountering childfree folks who denigrate parenting. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
littleblackheart Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 The concept of being glowingly happy with parenthood sounds a bit Disney to me. I get what you're saying, though the glowing part I read as an over exaggeration for effect. The happy part is not Disney at all (to me). Sure people complain a bit about their kids but the idea that parents who are happy about having kids is a rare thing (which is what leigh87 was hinting at) is totally ludicrous (to me). It's not easy, but it's not a sacrifice either. It's not like it's a competition anyway - there is no prize for being the 'happiest', whatever the personal circumstances. Am I supposed to feel bad because we don't want kids and are happy telling everyone that? Nope. Go for it. I have to say, it's profoundly disturbing to see how many men resent women for making their own choices about their lives. Ditto. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Yes, but her "miserableness" may be the reason she never married or had kids in the first place... Or had she had kids she may have been even MORE miserable... ..and plenty people with kids still die as lonely old souls... Children can also be a source of sadness, misery, and disappointment. I can't imagine the anguish that parents experience when they are raising children who struggle with mental health issues or severe disabilities. Parents of career criminals must feel such despair when they have to bail their children out of jail or visit them in prison. A less heart wrenching and more common scenario is the adult child who is perfectly healthy and capable yet very unsuccessful. Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I get what you're saying, though the glowing part I read as an over exaggeration for effect..... Are you saying that parenting does not require a lot of sacrifices? :confused:If so, I have never heard that in my life. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Kids are less important to me than enjoying my life. Am I supposed to be ashamed of that? I love my life as it is now. Why would I make a decision that would disrupt my current situation and make me unhappy, stressed, and significantly lower our financial standing? Am I supposed to feel bad because we don't want kids and are happy telling everyone that? I have to say, it's profoundly disturbing to see how many men resent women for making their own choices about their lives. Yes. We are supposed to feel ashamed of being "selfish" and "immature". Oh well. I will continue to enjoy my passionate sex life and vacations. Parents who are unhappy can keep being exhausted, broke, and sexless while seething with resentment at childfree folks. Before parents on this thread crucify me, please be aware that I am being tongue in cheek for emphasis. Happy parents who are confident in their decision to have kids don't have time to denigrate childfree people. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
littleblackheart Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) Are you saying that parenting does not require a lot of sacrifices? Sure it requires some sacrifices, but it's not a sacrifice. There's no martyrdom in parenthood - for me and a lot of parents I know, the good far outweighs the bad hands down. Essentially, whatever you do as a choice that fits your lifestyle is the right one. If for you this involves no kids, that's good. For me, my children are a central part of my happiness - and that's good too; at least for me! Edited June 12, 2019 by littleblackheart Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Learn to comprehend what you read, before getting hysterical....I know its hard for you, but just try.. Of course they can't, just like women cant see how many zeros a guys bank account or that he has a 2" dick by looking at him either...People "sniff out" others based on a variety of logical assumptions based on observations...Its no more complex than that... And FTR. I am not "Pro" anything....Do whatever the hell you want, its your life...Just don't expect society at large to fall in line with it....That's all... TFY Just pointing out that some women like me can't have kids..and yet I am very womanly and feminine and I am probably more maternal and motherly than my parent friends. Being fertile doesn't always make a woman more nurturing and more motherly. Plenty of childless women like me are natural mum's and don't come off like the women who are proudly child free by choice Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 In it's literal sense, it's not hard for me to believe. The concept of being glowingly happy with parenthood sounds a bit Disney to me. I just mean that I've only seen very very few parents who are utterly walking on air and in perpetual bliss due to being a parent. Some parents are filled with constant joy even amongst the drudgery. Most people are not constantly in that high. Most parents have a sort of middle ground where they are happier due to having kids but they aren't magically happier people than those who are childless. Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Not having kids is just the logical conclusion of an absence of responsibility and a rejection of typical gender roles and what is expected of them by society. my prediction (based on what I see and experience right now in the dating scene for my age bracket) is that childless women who have maturity issues will be the new normal... An interesting though. Your data has been gathered from individual case studies, things you have observed on the dating scene... Because, more girls than boys graduate from high school. Women are enrolling and graduating from post secondary education at significantly higher rates than men. Women are now working more often in professional jobs with a higher earning potential. And, 81% of single parents in Canada are mothers, down from 86% in 1976. So, tell us again how women not having kids is just the logical conclusion of an absence of responsibility and maturity issues that will be the new normal... because, it seems to me that women are carrying the burden, striving, and taking more responsibility in life than men - according to my data. Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I just mean that I've only seen very very few parents who are utterly walking on air and in perpetual bliss due to being a parent. Some parents are filled with constant joy even amongst the drudgery. Most people are not constantly in that high. Most parents have a sort of middle ground where they are happier due to having kids but they aren't magically happier people than those who are childless. I would agree with this. But the fact that parenting isn't always joyful doesn't make me regret having them. Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Nothing makes me happier than spending time with my children. Even the furry ones rate pretty high on the happiness scale. Now that my oldest son got married grandchildren are a real possibility. My heart smiles at the mere thought of having a grandchild. I’m gonna be great at it! Sniff. This is exactly how I would have felt if I was able to have kids. Which I'm not.. This is why I struggle to believe that any woman who is childless like me not by their own choice could ever be as happy as a happy parent.. I just don't see it. No amount of money or travel of richness of life could ever make me as happy as my own child would have.. I don't feel the joy of a child compares to any other type of happiness in life ---. ONLY for people like me though who have that innate desire for a child.. I envy women who lack my drive and don't have a void like I do without children. I feel women who never wanted kids can be super happy as much as a happy parent. But I am not buying that even the happiest childless women who wanted kids yet couldn't have them would be "happier" childless. I believe woman like me would be significantly LESS happy without kids and markedly MORE happy with kids of our own...... These studies don't focus on childless women like me where they dearly wanted kids but didn't have them.. I wouldn't be surprised if my utter grief and despair will be what ends my otherwise happy relationship. Infertility certainly does NOT make a woman "happier because she's childless" I wish the study focused more on childless not by choice women..I can guarantee none of them are as happy as the majority of parents. No matter how positive they are or how amazing their relationship is....... I hate how this study overlooks women as unfortunate as me. The black void of involuntary childless is so awful that it's a joke that society largely assumed that childfree women are all thriller at their lot in life and are so happy with all their extra money and stress free relationship! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just pointing out that some women like me can't have kids..and yet I am very womanly and feminine and I am probably more maternal and motherly than my parent friends. Being fertile doesn't always make a woman more nurturing and more motherly. Plenty of childless women like me are natural mum's and don't come off like the women who are proudly child free by choice You can be naturally maternal while still enjoying childfree. The two are not mutually exclusive. I am very good with children and I enjoy spending time with them in small doses. Children gravitate toward me. This causes parents to tell me that I should have kids because I am a "natural". I happen to have enough experience with children to know that I am not suited for the more grueling aspects of motherhood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I get what you're saying, though the glowing part I read as an over exaggeration for effect.... My point was that most people are parents and they aren't all magically happier than child free adults. And that I know very few parents who are filled with joy constantly. Most are no happier than couples without children. Although I do know one or two mums who without a doubt I believe are happier than most couples without kids, because these mum's had it easy and truly relish every moment of being a mum and suffer none of the hard bits such as bad finances ---. So I guess what I am getting at is, people who are luckier and make blessed in life in general---- great partner, financially comfortable and who live their lives ----. Are the winners here... But the winners in life who I have noticed are the happiest are not all parents. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) Sniff. This is exactly how I would have felt if I was able to have kids. Which I'm not...... I'm very sorry about your situation. I wish I could hug you. Do you think that you would be a good candidate for adoption? There's also surrogacy. Surrogacy is very expensive but you can save up for it. I know these options would not give you the experience of pregnancy and childbirth but at least you would be a mother. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
Springsummer Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I do agree not all childless women are happier. some people are just naturally nurturing. Living for others give meaning to their life. Some like to live for someone or something. some can enjoy living for themselves. Childless will make the latter happy while making the former unhappy. Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) You can be naturally maternal while still enjoying childfree. The two are not mutually exclusive.... I have no doubt I'll be happy still. I just know I would have been happier with a child. Women who want kids yet can't have them always have a void for the rest of their lives. I identify as a mum-- I feel like I am supposed to be a mum. I guess the "happy" child free women in the study had great relationships and great lives in general and don't live with the gut wrenching feeling at least once a day that is yearning for a child that you know you can't have. Plenty of childless women are not children. They are less - they are lacking something inherently in-built. So the study should clarify this. The childless women I know are not that happy because they are living their plan B life and it's sort of a consolation prize to the life they dreamed of that included babies. I dearly wish I was child free. I am actually about to start Hypnotherapy so that I can remove my desire to be a mum and end up like one of the "happy" childfree women in the study haha. Women in the study avoid so much pain and heartache because they never WANTED a child .of course they will be far happier than women like me when being childless was not a choice I had the luxury of making. The child free women discredit the results since the study didn't include couples who wanted children yet couldn't have them. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Leigh 87 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I'm very sorry about your situation. I wish I could hug you. Do you think that you would be a good candidate for adoption?,,,,, Adoption isn't a option and isn't possible at all. And I don't want to do surrogacy. The 150k isn't worth it. I wanted to experience birth and pregnancy. Not pay 150 K for someone else to experience what I wanted to. Adoption is a calling. Couples who can have kids should have the calling as much as an infertile woman. I basically am a fairly happy person naturally so I figure I will definitely still be very happy living my plan B life. I can live with the void of a child whilst still simultaneously be happy I'll be happy. I am happy. But I don't believe as a couple that we will be happier childless. Irrespective of how amazing our relationship is, I know on a gut level that our own baby would have made us infinitely happier as a couple. Thanks for your condolences. Many people don't see what a loss it is to yearn for your own child... But it's hard to explain, yearning to be a mum doesn't necessarily make surrogacy an attractive option... I just naturally feel as though if it isn't my own baby then I am just not pulled to do anything too science fiction like beyond maybe a few rounds of IVF... Growing my own human in another woman or sharing a child with their birth mum simply isn't the way I want to experience parenthood. Thanks and just be sure to exclude women like me from such studies... Believe me, we are all a lot less happy as a couple due to being without kids and absolutely no amount of amazingness in life can come close to the joy of a cold for some women. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 @ TFY No, it isn't a new Audi or shore house. Where my daughter and son-in-law (both 32) live now, childcare costs $2,200/mo/child and parking for one car outside is $900/mo. They pay $8k/yr real estate taxes, high state, city, and sales taxes too. Housing and other expenses are similarly high. I live in one of the most expensive places to live anywhere...Just my real estate taxes are more than double what you quoted..Im sure everything else is also beyond the numbers you posted..And I am a knuckle dragging moron...Yet somehow not only did I manage to bring/raise a kid into this world, I did it with a SAHM that only worked a menial part time job and didn't work at all until my daughter was around 9 or 10 years old....Total expenditure for daycare.....$0.00..All bills paid on time, etc.. Yet all of these so called highly functional people cant do it??....Sorry....tell it to someone else..It takes planning, some hard work, and sacrifice...that most people aren't prepared to bother with.....Period...and like I said before, that's fine!! Live the life you want....Its perfectly acceptable... TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I happen to have enough experience with children to know that I am not suited for the more grueling aspects of motherhood. This is not even remotely close to what it feels like to long to be a mother and have that longing be unfulfilled. You surely are not equating the two. Edited June 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lana-banana Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I did it with a SAHM that only worked a menial part time job and didn't work at all until my daughter was around 9 or 10 years old.. TFY I am quite fortunate to not have debt and have a high HHI, but that isn't the norm. A couple in my city making 100k total, which is considered middle class, would pay about 1/4th that for childcare here. The average 2-bedroom rent here is roughly 2k, and the average student loan debt is about 500/month---again, remember college is 4x-12x times more expensive today than it was in the stone age when you got a degree on a rock and immediately went to work in the stone quarry. How exactly are they supposed to afford a child? The problem is many many couples cannot afford to have a spouse stay home for childcare like yours did. I know of three young couples at my workplace, which pays extremely well, that have put off children either temporarily or permanently because they aren't in a good position financially. But go on, tell us more about how you made all the sacrifices, back in the day:rolleyes: I'm happy to not sacrifice anything I care about so I can continue to enjoy life. Just because we could have kids doesn't mean we want to or should feel badly about it. Edited June 12, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator poke 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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