Dilemma (need to date again....)

[No_Go]

Oh I hate massages & wine just like you Also hate watching sports, going on loud concerts (with some rare exceptions), anything that involves staying in a room with big crowd of 'friends' blurting nonsense and chewing food, guys that think they can 'give' me pleasure in bed by doing whatever, guys that over-use humor (just look idiotic to me), guys that are excessive gift givers (looks pathetic), guy that are using social media (until the day I die I'd NEVER post a relationship-y picture of social media and will delete, block and erase the traces of anyone that tries to do this to me).

 

All the rest is ok Hope this leaves me with a sufficient crowd of folks to choose from... It is just lots of work to prescreen guys because of all the fakeness of OLD (guys that 'like to laugh' and 'work hard play hard' etc non-sense are like 95% of the profiles I've seen)...

 

 

How much importance should you give to some dude who labeled you boring because you didn't want to drink with him.

 

When I was online dating every single man put in his profile they love romantic dinners with a good bottle of wine, you know I am from French heritage right, my parents and all my siblings make their wine, my culture drink wine like water....but guess what? I don't like alcohol, I never did, I don't like the taste and I hate the buzz. Imagine me trying to find a man compatible with me in this wine-lalaland, well I did ! my bf doesn't like alcohol either. So, If I can find a man who can have fun without wine in this wine-lalaland I am sure YOU can find one in your non-wine-lalaland.

 

Second thing I found online while dating. Men all put how much they're good at giving massages. Again, I hate massages. Don't put your hands on my shoulders or neck I will kick you! I can't stand it. Imagine when I told all those pursuers I did not like massages lol.

 

You have preferences just like the rest of us. Sure you don't like candle-light dinners and wine but I am sure you like other things that are exciting. There are plenty of men that would enjoy just ordering pizza while watching reruns next to you.

[RecentChange]

Haha it is not the Valentine day's flowers. It is the whole demeanor of a person that is performing actions to get my (or anyone else's) approval.

 

I don't know if that's different from what others' expect but in the second someone prioritizes me (e.g. treats me differently than any other person on the street) - my attraction to this person takes a nose dive. I just know it is a theater to get a gf or whatever his goal is.

 

Huh? WHY? If someone is attracted to you, if they want you, if you are important to them - why would you want to be treated like any other stranger on the street?

 

Have you ever considered that its not theater? That its not about your "approval"?

 

That someone may treat you special because you are special to them, and they want you to feel good?

 

When my husband does something romantic for me, its not because he wants something. Its not because he is acting, its because he cares about me, and likes seeing a smile on my face.

 

And you know what, I am not into roses or any of that, but coming home after a long day to find a trail of rose pedals leading to a hot bath, with some candle light - I really appreciate it. I appreciate the effort. He was obviously thinking about me, and wanted me to feel special - and I cherish that.

 

How do you show a man that he is special to you? How do you show him that he isn't just someone other dude on the street, but someone you cherish?

[No_Go]

You are describing EXACTLY the marriage paradigm that you spend so many pages decrying - an emotionless arrangement. - Yeah, because that's what I believe it is. It could be arrangement + love, but the 'arrangement' part is still love-free.

 

More than half of marriages end with divorse but is it because people fall out of love? No. It is usually money issue or sex issue (cheating etc).

I'd enjoy being an independent sexual adventurer - Are you an extrovert NY? Because for me this will be a painful torture. I hate meeting new people SO much that even if they all voluntarily drop their pants around me, the communication before/after the sex will crush my soul...

You go on quite a bit about "social conditioning." Break out of it. Don't conform. I'll try. It is hard since I grew up playing the 'good girl' role for so long that it feel unnatural to be non-conforming...

 

No. Steady sex, conception and a reliable partner are not enough for me or most people of any gender to commit to a lifetime with another person. Speaking for myself, I'd enjoy being an independent sexual adventurer forever much more than being tied to a person with whom I had no emotional connection in order to have it on the regular; heck, I think that would be the ultimate libido quencher. Also soul killing.

 

You are describing EXACTLY the marriage paradigm that you spend so many pages decrying - an emotionless arrangement.

 

In my experience, many marriages do end up emotionless arrangements. Few started that way. Divorce often follows. How or why would one be fulfilling?

 

In past generations there has always been a strong benefit to marriage, especially in the distant past when it very literally took two people to manage life - no mechanization for agricultural or household work. If people wanted to eat, someone had to make bread. Possibly grind the flour for the bread. If people wanted to live in a house, someone had to work the land for the land owner. As you know in upper classes marriages were typically arranged for economic and / or power reasons and as recent as the 50's when women working outside of the home still were not the norm. We've moved on.

 

What I don't think you get is that the drive in people for an emotional connection - "love" - has always been a force. Folks in the businesslike marriages often wanted it just as much as anyone else and if possible they often found it, simply not inside the boundaries of their marriages.

 

You go on quite a bit about "social conditioning." Break out of it. Don't conform. Do NOT date, don't marry, have your child, be a great parent and expose them to exemplary people of all genders. It's not even uncommon, people do it all the time.

[No_Go]

You know, NG, there are quite a lot of people entering into alternative family styles. I know personally a woman who bore a child via IVF for / with a gay couple. They all parent. They don't live together. They love each other but there is not mushiness. The boy, now 8 years old, is an outstanding free thinker and cool fellow all around.

 

Time to think outside of your box. Expanded horizons abound.

 

I wonder is there statistics how kids like this turn out as adults?

 

I'd probably go that route, I'm just so scared I'll mess up my kid's life...

[No_Go]

That someone may treat you special because you are special to them, and they want you to feel good? - Mainly by intuition. I believe I sense correctly 95% of the times someone is NOT genuine. You probably do this very well with your husband since you've been together for so long.

 

How do you show a man that he is special to you? How do you show him that he isn't just someone other dude on the street, but someone you cherish? Honestly? I don't.... That has been a problem before. I'd do the expected stuff (gifts, ILYs etc) but it feels forced. I like when the guy can sense my admiration and love without special words or actions. Just by the hyper-focus I put on him. That's more or less what I expect in return as well: just extreme attention. It doesn't need to entail works, gifts, services or extra time if I can sense it.

 

Huh? WHY? If someone is attracted to you, if they want you, if you are important to them - why would you want to be treated like any other stranger on the street?

 

Have you ever considered that its not theater? That its not about your "approval"?

 

That someone may treat you special because you are special to them, and they want you to feel good?

 

When my husband does something romantic for me, its not because he wants something. Its not because he is acting, its because he cares about me, and likes seeing a smile on my face.

 

And you know what, I am not into roses or any of that, but coming home after a long day to find a trail of rose pedals leading to a hot bath, with some candle light - I really appreciate it. I appreciate the effort. He was obviously thinking about me, and wanted me to feel special - and I cherish that.

 

How do you show a man that he is special to you? How do you show him that he isn't just someone other dude on the street, but someone you cherish?

[RecentChange]

=

I don't.... That has been a problem before. I'd do the expected stuff (gifts, ILYs etc) but it feels forced. I like when the guy can sense my admiration and love without special words or actions. Just by the hyper-focus I put on him. That's more or less what I expect in return as well: just extreme attention. It doesn't need to entail works, gifts, services or extra time if I can sense it.

 

What does that mean? Hyper focus? "Extreme attention"?

 

If its not shown in actions or words?

 

I know you have talked about love as this thing in your mind.... and not an action. How does your partner know, and feel, and see that you love them? How do they sense this without being a mind reader?

 

How do you COMMUNICATE to your partner?

 

Love should be about the way you make your partner feel - so how do you make your partner feel loved?

[No_Go]

I’ll be hyper aware of every word they said. I’ll pay extreme attention to what they say, do, want. I’ll try to facilitate if they need/want something. I’ll do things out of my comfort zone for them (but I won’t tell them so ). I’ll be hyper-protective - ie trying to shield them from unpleasant stuff.

 

You’re right though - most is unspoken. I’d expect them to read it in my behavior but won’t say much out loud.

 

I’m possibly quite bad at communicating love - I’m sure it is easy to sense for someone that knows me but for a stranger - I can imagine it can be confusing.

 

What does that mean? Hyper focus? "Extreme attention"?

 

If its not shown in actions or words?

 

I know you have talked about love as this thing in your mind.... and not an action. How does your partner know, and feel, and see that you love them? How do they sense this without being a mind reader?

 

How do you COMMUNICATE to your partner?

 

Love should be about the way you make your partner feel - so how do you make your partner feel loved?

[NuevoYorko]

 

I'd probably go that route, I'm just so scared I'll mess up my kid's life...

You will mess up your kid's life a lot more if you raise it in an environment where love and affection are scorned. At least in the case I mentioned, the child gets a chance to be around people who have a loving relationship. He will have a good model for how that can be very enriching. As you know, a good model for a healthy relationship is important to a child.

 

I think I get you and it's good that you are self aware, but I hope you're also aware that if you have a child that person is likely to end up wanting a bond with another human being, and you won't raise it to feel ashamed of that. If you end up with a boy, would you want him to feel like a weak loser if he grew up and loved a woman, a "puppy man" or whatever you call us?

[No_Go]

You will mess up your kid's life a lot more if you raise it in an environment where love and affection are scorned. At least in the case I mentioned, the child gets a chance to be around people who have a loving relationship. He will have a good model for how that can be very enriching. As you know, a good model for a healthy relationship is important to a child.

 

I think I get you and it's good that you are self aware, but I hope you're also aware that if you have a child that person is likely to end up wanting a bond with another human being, and you won't raise it to feel ashamed of that. If you end up with a boy, would you want him to feel like a weak loser if he grew up and loved a woman, a "puppy man" or whatever you call us?

 

Agreed for the role model.

 

Nuevo, I do NOT think a man loving a woman is a puppy man I called this men *acting* in some way to snatch a gf. Goal-daters. There are incredible ugly stories out there started by men (and women) that goal-date, I’m just sparing the details and that’s why I appear to dislike men that do love for real.

[nospam99]

Agreed for the role model.

 

Nuevo, I do NOT think a man loving a woman is a puppy man I called this men *acting* in some way to snatch a gf. Goal-daters. There are incredible ugly stories out there started by men (and women) that goal-date, I’m just sparing the details and that’s why I appear to dislike men that do love for real.

 

NG, doesn't all dating have a goal, whether it's simply to enjoy fun time with another person or in pursuit of sex or long-term love? Is your issue that you object to 'goal-daters' being phoney and *acting* differently than they would otherwise? Do you object to 'goal-daters' 'putting their best foot forward' at the beginning of a goal-dating relationship? Would it be more acceptable to you if there was an understanding that the goal-daters were putting their real, non-acting selves out there for their 'targets' to see and know BEFORE 'closing the deal'?

[No_Go]

NG, doesn't all dating have a goal, whether it's simply to enjoy fun time with another person or in pursuit of sex or long-term love? Is your issue that you object to 'goal-daters' being phoney and *acting* differently than they would otherwise? Do you object to 'goal-daters' 'putting their best foot forward' at the beginning of a goal-dating relationship? Would it be more acceptable to you if there was an understanding that the goal-daters were putting their real, non-acting selves out there for their 'targets' to see and know BEFORE 'closing the deal'?

 

Yeah I see your point. The issue is having a nice-guy mask to achieve a gating goal (or work goal or any other).

 

P.S. The emoticon that appeared means nothing - I just saw it and can’t remove it.

 

I’d love if someone put their real non-acting front forward, even if he’s flawed. And if he doesn’t change his behavior if the goal won’t happen (I.e. stay equally nice and interested after firm realization that sex/relationship etc won’t be happening). I’m trying all my life to get to that ideal myself [e.g. NOT to change my behavior at all if someone wrongs me or is nice to me].

[Gaeta]

I don't know if that's different from what others' expect but in the second someone prioritizes me (e.g. treats me differently than any other person on the street)

 

I like when the guy can sense my admiration and love without special words or actions. Just by the hyper-focus I put on him. That's more or less what I expect in return as well: just extreme attention.

 

You are contradicting yourself.

 

You don't want to be treated differently than any other person on the street BUT you show your love by hyper-focusing on men??

 

So you pay super attention to his words, you remember his every words, you look up to him, you admire him BUT he has to treat you like the newspaper boy?

[No_Go]

You are contradicting yourself.

 

You don't want to be treated differently than any other person on the street BUT you show your love by hyper-focusing on men??

 

So you pay super attention to his words, you remember his every words, you look up to him, you admire him BUT he has to treat you like the newspaper boy?

 

The hyperfocus doesn’t change actions though. That’s why it’s not a contradiction IMO.

[NuevoYorko]

This is a long and convoluted thread. The main points I get are:

 

1. You "must" date to reach your goals.

 

2. You despise goal oriented dating.

 

3. Goal oriented dating is acceptable if it does not include any romantic gestures.

 

4. The acceptable exception to this is "hyper focus." (I'm not sure what this means but I get an inkling that it would feel rather creepy to be on the receiving end).

 

5. Though you find "hyper focus" acceptable, being treated differently than any other person on the street by a man you're dating is the ultimate turn off for you. (:confused:????)

 

 

Is that about right?

 

These criteria are not going to add up to finding a healthy male partner. What you offer in return is babies, regular sex and "hyper focus." Not a fraction of enough. It doesn't matter how pretty or smart you are. There are millions of attractive and intelligent people. When we partner up, we are in fact looking for one who stands out to us; who we find unique and want to treat that way. We want to treat them in special ways. If this were to be scorned, we would be out of there as fast as possible.

 

I'm not going to go down this particular rabbit hole any further. Frankly, as I have told you in other threads, it reminds me too much of tiresome circular arguments with my daughter when she was fourteen. I am glad those days have gone by.

 

If you are serious about all of this, I think you should go to a matchmaker, but my honest opinion is that maturity will take care of a lot of this. I do sincerely hope for the best for you, N_G!

[No_Go]

Thanks NY, sounds about right I’ve concluded based on this thread and other discussions it is just not the right time to date.

 

But sometime next year, after taking a good breather, maybe I’ll try a matchmaker indeed.

 

For now: time to focus on other aspects of life. If I stay single & childless for forever - better make a decent contribution with my work etc

[Gaeta]

For now: time to focus on other aspects of life. If I stay single & childless for forever - better make a decent contribution with my work etc

 

About concentrating on other things than work and relationships. Something that will expend your mind outside this little box you've locked yourself in. What comes to mind is to get involved in volunteer work or travel with a backpack. Go walk the Camino de Santiago and come back a changed woman with a new vision on life. What's the used of you throwing yourself in work and going back to dating with the same dysfunctional definition of love and relationships.

[No_Go]

About concentrating on other things than work and relationships. Something that will expend your mind outside this little box you've locked yourself in. What comes to mind is to get involved in volunteer work or travel with a backpack. Go walk the Camino de Santiago and come back a changed woman with a new vision on life. What's the used of you throwing yourself in work and going back to dating with the same dysfunctional definition of love and relationships.

 

I wish I could afford the time to backpack-travel A friend of mine is doing that in Africa (volunteering while also merging with the locals), I would have gone with him if I hadn’t been stuck with mortgage and bills and responsibilities .... But maybe I can do stuff locally.

 

I feel like my views of relationships got jaded by the incredibly ugly stories of people I’m reading here and listening IRL from friends etc. Just... you see something positive - on the surface, that is so ugly in it’s core that you stop believing in anything genuine. I guess learning to ignore is the ‘cure’.

[Kamille]

I feel like my views of relationships got jaded by the incredibly ugly stories of people I’m reading here and listening IRL from friends etc. Just... you see something positive - on the surface, that is so ugly in it’s core that you stop believing in anything genuine. I guess learning to ignore is the ‘cure’.

 

I was thinking about my friends' relationship the other day. I'm close to something like 7 couples. Of those 7 couples, all are in love, one is trying to figure out a major issue (a partner changing his mind about wanting children) and one I don't like as a couple (he's a condescending cheating ass) but they figured ut out and are still together. The other 5? Great couples that really work well together.

 

So I have to wonder how it is that all of your friends relationships are ugly under the surface? My guess would be that your own negative view of relationships is causing a confirmation bias, where only people who struggle in relationships confide in you.

[No_Go]

My guess would be that your own negative view of relationships is causing a confirmation bias, where only people who struggle in relationships confide in you.

 

That very well could be - people tend to confide to someone they identify with (you'd always see divorced befriend divorced, single moms befriend other single moms etc).

 

But I think it is also because i nitpick too much On the surface - it looks good - they have been together for many years, get along nicely etc. And then you realize there were affairs, there were huge compromises, one sacrificed his/her career for the other, there was strategized 'unplanned' pregnancy, there were wandering eyes, there was using the other to move upwards in the social strata, there are ones that are together to 'appear happy' or because they know no better (never been single and scared to death to get there) etc etc.

 

Usually for the naked eye this will all be concealed and covered with happy facebook/ig photos... A tangent but NOTHING makes me puke as much as someone posting a facebook profile photo with the 'sweetie' - it is like the ultimate self-betrayal - screaming to the world - "Look at me(us?)!! I/we(?) have NO identity anymore!!"

 

It is just fascinating how people describe the ugliest of the ugliest situations with sweet words But let's look at it from the humorous side - that's my new resolution

Edited December 14, 2017 by No_Go

[CptInsano]

[...]

But I think it is also because i nitpick too much On the surface - it looks good - they have been together for many years, get along nicely etc. And then you realize there were affairs, there were huge compromises, one sacrificed his/her career for the other, there was strategized 'unplanned' pregnancy, there were wandering eyes, there was using the other to move upwards in the social strata, there are ones that are together to 'appear happy' or because they know no better (never been single and scared to death to get there) etc etc.

[...]

 

At the same time you are measuring their happiness by your own standards. I know plenty of couples who seem dysfunctional to me. I knew one where the wife treated her husband like a little kid, down to telling him what he can and cannot eat. I got a quiet moment with that husband, and he was enjoying his marriage greatly. His wife telling him what to do "uncomplicated" his life. He didn't want it any other way and was happy.

 

I honestly regret making fun of them a bit, because in their own messed up way they have found happiness. Who would I be to judge?

[nospam99]

A tangent but NOTHING makes me puke as much as someone posting a facebook profile photo with the 'sweetie' - it is like the ultimate self-betrayal - screaming to the world - "Look at me(us?)!! I/we(?) have NO identity anymore!!"

 

 

I don't remember if this question has been asked, NG. Have you ever thought you were 'in love'? I say 'thought' because being 'in love' is in the mind of the lover. It's one of those terms that we LSers could argue to death without coming to a consensus because it can mean different things to different people and is, at least to me, hard to describe with mere words. Granted, some of those FB photos may very well be wishful thinking and covering up some of the ugliness you write of. But on the other hand can you accept that some of those FB photos may be posted by people who do feel so 'in love' that they think in terms of us/we instead of I/me? FWIW, though I don't now, I have in my life thought I was 'in love'. It was a very good and happy feeling which I'd very much like to experience again before ... the end.

[RecentChange]

Yeah count me as another that knows many successful happy couples. It's not fake. It's not a show. It's not because they are scared or a million other negative adjectives.

 

You seem to have a lot to distain for relationships and people in them NoGo. Honestly I find many of your views extremely judgemental and so far off the mark from the reality of the world that surrounds me, I don't no even know where to start.

 

It's as if we live on different planets.

 

I don't think you will ever be able to have a natural, loving successful relationship - while believing all these negative things you say about them.

[No_Go]

Cpt that’s exactly it! Some of these couples do not even claim to be unhappy.

 

Like someone casually admitted her husband is screwing a coworker but she’s okay with it (?!?!??) it doesn’t interfere with their family. Another dude has 2 wifeys in rotation (after divorcing N1 went to N2, now divorced her to get back to N1) - all happy and picture perfect (wifey 2 birthed 2 babies from him during her rotation time).

 

Well, I guess you’re right it’s not a good idea to judge, but it makes me think that’s what the happily family life looks like out of ‘love’ claims on surveys that the abusive sweetie may be secretly reading

 

At the same time you are measuring their happiness by your own standards. I know plenty of couples who seem dysfunctional to me. I knew one where the wife treated her husband like a little kid, down to telling him what he can and cannot eat. I got a quiet moment with that husband, and he was enjoying his marriage greatly. His wife telling him what to do "uncomplicated" his life. He didn't want it any other way and was happy.

 

I honestly regret making fun of them a bit, because in their own messed up way they have found happiness. Who would I be to judge?

[No_Go]

I don't remember if this question has been asked, NG. Have you ever thought you were 'in love'? I say 'thought' because being 'in love' is in the mind of the lover. It's one of those terms that we LSers could argue to death without coming to a consensus because it can mean different things to different people and is, at least to me, hard to describe with mere words. Granted, some of those FB photos may very well be wishful thinking and covering up some of the ugliness you write of. But on the other hand can you accept that some of those FB photos may be posted by people who do feel so 'in love' that they think in terms of us/we instead of I/me? FWIW, though I don't now, I have in my life thought I was 'in love'. It was a very good and happy feeling which I'd very much like to experience again before ... the end.

 

Yeah 2-3 Times so far and like you, I’m hoping to experience it again before the end!

 

But... I still would never post a FB coupley photo. Maybe just personal bias, I get what you mean.

[nospam99]

Another question for NG: Have you read Nathaniel Branden's The Disowned Self? I read it once long before you were born: in your face reality adjustment of the boundaries of the ego.