Dilemma (need to date again....)

[BluEyeL]

I think you should be a single mother by choice. Societal pressure to not do that isn't as great as it once was. It's better than putting up with someone you don't like just to have kids. I would totally do it.

 

For sex you can still date and be in relationships for up to two years or as long as it takes for the infatuation to fade and then take a break, wash rinse repeat.

[NuevoYorko]

As others have astutely noted, no man in his right mind is going to agree to as dramatic a commitment as children without caring deeply for the person who helps him raise/create those children. You can have "kids" as a priority, but "kids without romance and affection" isn't gonna happen.

Absolutely.

 

What would make a man enter into such an arrangement - unless he feels exactly the same way? And such a man who, like you, is disgusted with the concept of being in an intimate relationship won't be found on a dating site looking for a wife. Casual sex, maybe - but we are looking for something much more in a life partner.

 

Speaking from a man's point of view - I'm not getting what is supposed to be in this for the guy. It sounds completely unrewarding.

[MaleIntuition]

I believe in love. I just don't believe romance or courtship or marriage is correlated with love at all. It is a goal - to get something.

And that's the most unloving thing one can do (well it is love -

loving themselves).

 

Romance is individual. Sure - I'm not even concerned about the shape of the so called romance. Much more about how genuine - i.e. NOT goal oriented - it is.

 

Finally I think you are looking for an INTP or INTJ personality type. I think the US has some MBTI based dating sites, perhaps look into one of those?

I feel like INFP works best for me (I'm INTJ). Although I don't have experience with INTP/J - maybe these will be great as well. I don't know a MB based site - can you recommend one? And gosh I fell once for ENFP - musician, completely different from me - it was short but epic, I guess it wouldn't have worked out with his lifestyle, but I still miss him - 4 years later

 

Not correlated, which goal? What do you mean? Personally I don’t care about marriage.

 

Ah, so you have pretty much described that you are looking for a male version of yourself then . Female INTJ aren’t very common which means that the current dating culture will not fit you at all. I think you will feel much better with yourself and dating if you toss aside the stereotypes and take more of the traditional “male” role. That way you can easier skip the whole wine-and-dine part if you wish (although most people whom are interested in something serious will want to get to know their potential partners - and we do need to eat, right?). I think it’s something at least worth trying for you.

 

Funny you mentioned ENFP; according to some theory, that is the best match for you. You both use Te and Fi to communicate which means similar communication styles (although they have switched places in order of preference) and dom Ne tends to be very fascinated by dom Ni and the other way around. Typically ENFP are high energy individuals whom follows their own dreams and values.

 

Check out projectevolove perhaps, just a site I found when I was googling around.

[Popsicle]

Ouch - I hope a little before then I actually don't have super high expectations, just specific. If I was in a rush to meet Mr Meet my Expectations - I would. I just need to target my search better. But as of now... I really don't have the motivation to put in the effort. Maybe some day next year(s) I'll try.

 

What do you mean “maybe someday next year(s) I’ll try”? That was the whole point of you making this thread.

[No_Go]

What do you mean “maybe someday next year(s) I’ll try”? That was the whole point of you making this thread.

 

I meant I’ll try going on a date. I haven’t been dating (by conscious choice) since the summer - but your message slightly scared me

 

The point was venting about my internal struggles of what exactly I need and strategizing for ways to get there.

[No_Go]

By goal I meant getting into and/or maintaining a relationship (with manipulative tactics-ie faking romance).

 

Yeah it is funny how we people need a self reflection in dating.

 

I’ve been taking the male role in pretty much every relationship situation so far - it would just happen naturally. And yeah, skipping the wine&dine part will be great, I personally don’t care too much about food, don’t drink at all and static settings make me nervous... Eating is fine but it can be a bite on the way or in later stages eating at home (a pint of ice cream from the tube accounts for the perfect dinner )

 

Yeah the ENFP (and INFP) turned to be great matches in practice

 

I’ve seen projectevolove but I didn’t sign because I thought the numbers of people there are low... But it may be worth it!

 

 

 

Not correlated, which goal? What do you mean? Personally I don’t care about marriage.

 

Ah, so you have pretty much described that you are looking for a male version of yourself then . Female INTJ aren’t very common which means that the current dating culture will not fit you at all. I think you will feel much better with yourself and dating if you toss aside the stereotypes and take more of the traditional “male” role. That way you can easier skip the whole wine-and-dine part if you wish (although most people whom are interested in something serious will want to get to know their potential partners - and we do need to eat, right?). I think it’s something at least worth trying for you.

 

Funny you mentioned ENFP; according to some theory, that is the best match for you. You both use Te and Fi to communicate which means similar communication styles (although they have switched places in order of preference) and dom Ne tends to be very fascinated by dom Ni and the other way around. Typically ENFP are high energy individuals whom follows their own dreams and values.

 

Check out projectevolove perhaps, just a site I found when I was googling around.

[Popsicle]

I meant I’ll try going on a date. I haven’t been dating (by conscious choice) since the summer - but your message slightly scared me

 

The point was venting about my internal struggles of what exactly I need and strategizing for ways to get there.

 

The point of my message was that nobody’s absolutely PERFECT. And if you’re sure you want to have kids (not sure if you’re sure) then you have to do a little resolving.

[No_Go]

Absolutely.

 

What would make a man enter into such an arrangement - unless he feels exactly the same way? And such a man who, like you, is disgusted with the concept of being in an intimate relationship won't be found on a dating site looking for a wife. Casual sex, maybe - but we are looking for something much more in a life partner.

 

Speaking from a man's point of view - I'm not getting what is supposed to be in this for the guy. It sounds completely unrewarding.

 

Maybe steady, daily sex? Security? Reliable partner? Desire to have a kid himself? I dare to say I can offer a lot in such arrangement - it won’t be bad for the guy, trust me on that;)

[No_Go]

I think you should be a single mother by choice. Societal pressure to not do that isn't as great as it once was. It's better than putting up with someone you don't like just to have kids. I would totally do it.

 

For sex you can still date and be in relationships for up to two years or as long as it takes for the infatuation to fade and then take a break, wash rinse repeat.

 

I hope I don’t chicken out and do it - seems like it is getting normalized indeed.

 

Eh sounds good on paper to break, wash, rinse & repeat but you know people rarely work that way. Infatuation may fade but attachment develops and IME break ups even in near-FWB unloving situations were super messy, draining, teary and multiple months long....

[No_Go]

The point of my message was that nobody’s absolutely PERFECT. And if you’re sure you want to have kids (not sure if you’re sure) then you have to do a little resolving.

 

Yeah I’m not sure I’m sure as well I just know biologically my time will be over soon and I’m afraid I may regret it if I don’t do it (because there is no turn around for biological kids at least).

[Gaeta]

Maybe steady, daily sex? Security? Reliable partner? Desire to have a kid himself? I dare to say I can offer a lot in such arrangement - it won’t be bad for the guy, trust me on that;)

 

 

I feel you are making a huge deal out of nothing.

 

Obviously you want to love and be loved. You are also seeking affection, kindness, sexuality, partnership and respect. How is that any different than what we're all looking for?

 

All this because you don't like Valentine's Day and be surprised with roses?. It sounds like you put yourself in a completely seperate category of women because of that, but you're not, you're no different. Stop convincing yourself you're some rare animal and very little men will pick you.

 

Just be yourself, date, discard those you don't like and date again.

[Kamille]

Yesterday you asked how looking for someone that inspires you might be a sign of an avoidant attachment style.

 

Avoidant people often look for partners they can idealize, instead of partners that are equals / regular people with flaws. No one can live up to being idealized long term, so this idealization eventually serves to disqualify partners. For instance, an avoidant person will fall hard and fast and then start being critical of their partner once the partner reveals to be just a normal being with good and bad personality traits. Things that secure people will find to be mild annoyances will be built into huge disqualifying relationship-ending deals by avoidants.

 

Avoidants who enter relationships usually always keep evaluating the quality of their partner. Secures don't, once they commit.

 

I'm not saying this is you, but it seems to match. You think happy relationships don't exist, you want someone who inspires you, you were absolutely enthralled by your non-traditional partner and you already have a rigid list of what romantic behaviours you will tolerate in future dates (instead of being open to finding out who they are, as someone secure would).

[Chilli]

Yeah , lotta big points above there .

 

But anyway , just to add to speaking of my brothers sitch earlier with his gf, no way he'd have kids like that though and that's why they haven't.

l was more just talking about their part time thing.

No way l'd have kids like that either, l'd want a proper family and loving relationship for kids that's a whole nother matter.

[stillafool]

OP, if you don't like to be wined and dined, romanced, etc., tell guys this. I'm sure they won't mind. They will be relieved because it will save them a great deal of money.

[No_Go]

Nah, I tried this before - and I'd get labeled 'boring'.

 

It is not about them spending money because I tend to pay the bill for both more often than they do.

 

I maybe just need someone like minded who naturally doesn't like going out as well...

 

OP, if you don't like to be wined and dined, romanced, etc., tell guys this. I'm sure they won't mind. They will be relieved because it will save them a great deal of money.

[d0nnivain]

I maybe just need someone like minded who naturally doesn't like going out as well...

 

Now you are onto something but . . .

 

the first few dates will have to be "out." Inviting somebody in to a home cooked meal early on implies that you are dessert & that causes its own problems.

 

Just pick more causal places. DH & I fell in love eating ice cream at picnic tables behind this seasonal ice cream place by us. Very low key, seemingly unromantic with lot of neon & screaming children hyped up on sugar but sitting there with him, I didn't see any of that.

 

FWIW, I didn't care for Valentine's Day until I fell in love.

[Kamille]

Nah, I tried this before - and I'd get labeled 'boring'.

 

 

Actually, yes. That worked in your favour. You both immediately knew you were incompatible. So keep doing that until you find someone who shares your views on romantic gestures.

[clia]

Of course it’s a performance early on. Yes!!!! This is it! I HATE the idea of performance to achieve something. It makes me feel dumb and worthless if someone thinks this approach will work with me. I don't do this to men for god sake - no matter how much I like or admire them. I find 'courtship' as ultimate disrespect - like a bribe of some kind. I don't need a fancy dinner to f*ck with a guy - I need a sexual attraction which follows the natural chemistry between us. I don't need a 'proof of good behavior' towards me to marry a guy - I need to see it in ALL his interactions with friends & enemies alike.

 

Authentic romance is great, courtship 'romance' is fake and rotten.

 

Why do you assume all courtship "romance" is fake and rotten, though? I mean, sure, there are some guys out there who will fake it for whatever reason, but that isn't everyone. Men get excited and thrilled when they meet a woman who they really like and want a future with in the same way that women do. Wanting to do nice things for or enjoy nice things with that woman by way of courtship romance can absolutely come from the heart. If you don't like that stuff, that's your choice, but painting it all as fake seems too broad a brushstroke.

 

But anyway, you do seem to like some forms of romance, just not others, which is pretty much how everyone is. We all have are preferences and views on what is too cheesy or what we like. If you don't like being wined and dined because you don't care about fancy restaurants or food or wine, then don't date guys who are into that kind of thing. It's really not that hard. It's just about finding someone who you are compatible with, which is exactly what everyone is trying to find. There are loads of men out there who would probably prefer to sit home on the couch rather than to have to get dressed up and go out for food and wine. If a guy thinks you are boring for feeling that way, then he is not the right guy for you. It's really that simple.

[Gaeta]

Nah, I tried this before - and I'd get labeled 'boring'.

 

How much importance should you give to some dude who labeled you boring because you didn't want to drink with him.

 

When I was online dating every single man put in his profile they love romantic dinners with a good bottle of wine, you know I am from French heritage right, my parents and all my siblings make their wine, my culture drink wine like water....but guess what? I don't like alcohol, I never did, I don't like the taste and I hate the buzz. Imagine me trying to find a man compatible with me in this wine-lalaland, well I did ! my bf doesn't like alcohol either. So, If I can find a man who can have fun without wine in this wine-lalaland I am sure YOU can find one in your non-wine-lalaland.

 

Second thing I found online while dating. Men all put how much they're good at giving massages. Again, I hate massages. Don't put your hands on my shoulders or neck I will kick you! I can't stand it. Imagine when I told all those pursuers I did not like massages lol.

 

You have preferences just like the rest of us. Sure you don't like candle-light dinners and wine but I am sure you like other things that are exciting. There are plenty of men that would enjoy just ordering pizza while watching reruns next to you.

[NuevoYorko]

Maybe steady, daily sex? Security? Reliable partner? Desire to have a kid himself? I dare to say I can offer a lot in such arrangement - it won’t be bad for the guy, trust me on that;)

 

No. Steady sex, conception and a reliable partner are not enough for me or most people of any gender to commit to a lifetime with another person. Speaking for myself, I'd enjoy being an independent sexual adventurer forever much more than being tied to a person with whom I had no emotional connection in order to have it on the regular; heck, I think that would be the ultimate libido quencher. Also soul killing.

 

You are describing EXACTLY the marriage paradigm that you spend so many pages decrying - an emotionless arrangement.

 

In my experience, many marriages do end up emotionless arrangements. Few started that way. Divorce often follows. How or why would one be fulfilling?

 

In past generations there has always been a strong benefit to marriage, especially in the distant past when it very literally took two people to manage life - no mechanization for agricultural or household work. If people wanted to eat, someone had to make bread. Possibly grind the flour for the bread. If people wanted to live in a house, someone had to work the land for the land owner. As you know in upper classes marriages were typically arranged for economic and / or power reasons and as recent as the 50's when women working outside of the home still were not the norm. We've moved on.

 

What I don't think you get is that the drive in people for an emotional connection - "love" - has always been a force. Folks in the businesslike marriages often wanted it just as much as anyone else and if possible they often found it, simply not inside the boundaries of their marriages.

 

You go on quite a bit about "social conditioning." Break out of it. Don't conform. Do NOT date, don't marry, have your child, be a great parent and expose them to exemplary people of all genders. It's not even uncommon, people do it all the time.

[NuevoYorko]

You know, NG, there are quite a lot of people entering into alternative family styles. I know personally a woman who bore a child via IVF for / with a gay couple. They all parent. They don't live together. They love each other but there is not mushiness. The boy, now 8 years old, is an outstanding free thinker and cool fellow all around.

 

Time to think outside of your box. Expanded horizons abound.

[No_Go]

Haha it is not the Valentine day's flowers. It is the whole demeanor of a person that is performing actions to get my (or anyone else's) approval.

 

I don't know if that's different from what others' expect but in the second someone prioritizes me (e.g. treats me differently than any other person on the street) - my attraction to this person takes a nose dive. I just know it is a theater to get a gf or whatever his goal is.

 

Otherwise you're right We all have different ideas for romance but ultimately we all want kindness, sex, respect etc.

 

I feel you are making a huge deal out of nothing.

 

Obviously you want to love and be loved. You are also seeking affection, kindness, sexuality, partnership and respect. How is that any different than what we're all looking for?

 

All this because you don't like Valentine's Day and be surprised with roses?. It sounds like you put yourself in a completely seperate category of women because of that, but you're not, you're no different. Stop convincing yourself you're some rare animal and very little men will pick you.

 

Just be yourself, date, discard those you don't like and date again.

[No_Go]

Ha - this makes me think then I'm not avoidant:

No one can live up to being idealized long term, so this idealization eventually serves to disqualify partners

My infatuations just last way too long, way past any point of shattering the ideal...

 

I don't think I'm that bad at commitment either: it is worse - I can't put a stop at all. Once in a relationship - I'm 'blind' to 'distractions, even worse - I hang there even after the expiration date because of some sense of responsibility for the well-being of the (ex-)bf.

 

I guess this is more anxious attachment? It is not secure, but I don't think it is avoidant either.

 

 

Yesterday you asked how looking for someone that inspires you might be a sign of an avoidant attachment style.

 

Avoidant people often look for partners they can idealize, instead of partners that are equals / regular people with flaws. No one can live up to being idealized long term, so this idealization eventually serves to disqualify partners. For instance, an avoidant person will fall hard and fast and then start being critical of their partner once the partner reveals to be just a normal being with good and bad personality traits. Things that secure people will find to be mild annoyances will be built into huge disqualifying relationship-ending deals by avoidants.

 

Avoidants who enter relationships usually always keep evaluating the quality of their partner. Secures don't, once they commit.

 

I'm not saying this is you, but it seems to match. You think happy relationships don't exist, you want someone who inspires you, you were absolutely enthralled by your non-traditional partner and you already have a rigid list of what romantic behaviours you will tolerate in future dates (instead of being open to finding out who they are, as someone secure would).

[No_Go]

Yeah - I know first few dates at home are generally unsafe (sex is not even my biggest concern, always on the back of my mind is that the person may turn violent or worse )

 

My go-to is usually a hike of some type - there are city parks that are populated enough to be safe, even simple trails are not too bad. Ice cream doesn't sound bad as well. But these are all summer ideas. I feel like there is nothing appropriate in the winter months, which is not a big deal - I don't feel like dating in the winter anyway, I can save the power for the spring/summer

 

 

Now you are onto something but . . .

 

the first few dates will have to be "out." Inviting somebody in to a home cooked meal early on implies that you are dessert & that causes its own problems.

 

Just pick more causal places. DH & I fell in love eating ice cream at picnic tables behind this seasonal ice cream place by us. Very low key, seemingly unromantic with lot of neon & screaming children hyped up on sugar but sitting there with him, I didn't see any of that.

 

FWIW, I didn't care for Valentine's Day until I fell in love.

[No_Go]

Why do you assume all courtship "romance" is fake and rotten, though? I mean, sure, there are some guys out there who will fake it for whatever reason, but that isn't everyone. Men get excited and thrilled when they meet a woman who they really like and want a future with in the same way that women do. Wanting to do nice things for or enjoy nice things with that woman by way of courtship romance can absolutely come from the heart. If you don't like that stuff, that's your choice, but painting it all as fake seems too broad a brushstroke.

 

But anyway, you do seem to like some forms of romance, just not others, which is pretty much how everyone is. We all have are preferences and views on what is too cheesy or what we like. If you don't like being wined and dined because you don't care about fancy restaurants or food or wine, then don't date guys who are into that kind of thing. It's really not that hard. It's just about finding someone who you are compatible with, which is exactly what everyone is trying to find. There are loads of men out there who would probably prefer to sit home on the couch rather than to have to get dressed up and go out for food and wine. If a guy thinks you are boring for feeling that way, then he is not the right guy for you. It's really that simple.

 

Yeah you're probably right it is a matter of preference more than anything.

 

I'm saying it is not genuine in MOST cases - I've seen both and usually the structured planned 'dating' is the fake one. Like "I'd take her to do xxx on date 3 because that's what people that want a gf do". The lack of spontaneity is so glaringly obvious... And the goal ("I want a gf by the end of this year! Or asap!"). This freaks me out. Someone being genuinely nice will be non-discriminatory in his behavior REGARDLESS of the potential/type of the relationship.