Fiance got a lap dance WITH touching at friend's bachelor party...

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Escorts and strippers are always a victim of CSA or trauma from FOO issues. So by engaging with them (esp prostitutes) you are taking advantage of there past trauma.

 

I'm a smoker. Perhaps I should blame my choices on someone else too. That's how America seems to work these days. Smh

[BettyDraper]

replied in quote

 

 

 

---I am cool and open minded...but I also have strong views on cheating/boundaries/etc. Considering my best friend met her now husband met because of me in a strip club....I think I have enough life experience to know what happens in them. You said you went to a strip club once when you were 19. When was the last time you were at one then? You don't have to agree with me...just like I don't have to agree with you

 

This isn't about whether or not you agree with me. It is about your blatantly shaming language as well as your duplicity. You keep claiming that you are so "cool" when someone points out the inconsistencies in your words.

 

If people with different boundaries than you are "delusional", then you are someone who clutches pearls while refusing to own your viewpoints for what they are. It would make more sense to admit to your opinions rather than pretending to be something that you're not.

 

I went to a strip club when I was 19 as paying customer. I also visited strip clubs numerous times to support friends who were strippers.

[BettyDraper]

I'm a smoker. Perhaps I should blame my choices on someone else too. That's how America seems to work these days. Smh

 

Exactly! As the CSA survivor, I hate the idea that I cannot be the captain of my soul just because I was abused. Not every CSA survivor grows up to be a sex worker. Those who use escorts are not obligated to care about the psychological makeup of the service providers either.

 

I have PTSD. I once worked in a company where descriptions of abuse were common. Should my boss have given me special treatment when I made the decision to take that job?

 

I just don't buy into the poor helpless victim mentality. I prefer to rise above my challenges instead of seeking sympathy for them.

[Driver]

I resent being called insecure and a drama queen. I have been to a strip CLUB before. And I think watching a dance or your buddies paying for you to have a lap dance in front of everyone is just all in good fun. I didn't even think you were allowed to grope strippers. Call me crazy but that's what I pictured strip clubs to be. Heck, I even googled strip club rules and they all mentioned no touching. No touching because there IS a difference between receiving an awkward dance for fun and then actively touching a woman in a sexual way. So when my fiancé and I were talking about ground rules before he went - no, I did NOT think to tell him no touching. There is a massive difference between getting a lap dance in a strip club with all your buddies hooting at you...and then paying 40.00 for a show in a hotel room where the woman is completely naked and you're groping her boobs, and then she goes on and does a live sex show. And the other married and engaged men have the sense to keep it together. Sorry but the fact that the other attached guys had the sense to stay out of that and just watch DOES mean something to me. It's not fun being the chump - the partner of the ONE guy who didn't have the respect and consideration. I trusted him so much to make the right decisions that we didn't make any specific ground rules - really, I have to tell my fiancé of one month that he can't grab another woman's breasts and fondle them? Naive or not I had NO idea groping was on the table when it comes to stripped.

 

And his brother is an interesting character. We are very close. He has always had diarrhea mouth when it comes to everything. He doesn't have a bad bone in his body and cannot lie. He didn't spill a ton of details - and he was defensive over my fiancé the whole time...but when I simply asked if any other the other married or engaged dudes did any of this stuff he sheepishly said "no, I guess none of them did, it was only a few of us that got the dances."

 

I also resent being told that because I have standards and had a reaction to my boyfriend taking a so called "lap dance" too far and touching another woman that he will never be honest with me again. So I am just supposed to take this?

[central]

You asked for opinions. You got them. You don't have to like them. When all is said and done, it's your choice what to do about the situation, as you're the one who will have to live with the decision.

[Gemma1]

Geez. No one said he'd NEVER be honest with you again. I'm seeing a pattern here :-P Do what you will, it's your relationship!

[MJJean]

Yes, because she TRUSTED him to make good decisions that would reflect his loyalty and respect for her. She didn't expect he would cross those boundaries. Most men who are respectful of their partners would not need to be told, "hey, btw, please don't grope a naked women as she sits on you and grinds you."

 

Exactly.

 

If you understood how completely meaningless a lap dance is to most of us you wouldn't feel this way. Lap dances are about as intimate as getting your car washed, despite how they look.

 

When done in a room full of people, it's more about making your buddy's laugh and hoot and holler than about wanting to get physical with Cinnamon, or Mercedes or whatever poor girl is crawling around the room in her panties.

 

Seriously, it's nothing.

 

It may be nothing to some guys and to the ladies working in the sex industry, but to the betrayed SO's it's not meaningless.

 

Again, just because the chick is getting paid for it and the sexual contact is "meaningless" to the man doesn't make it not cheating. Otherwise, visiting hookers for the occasional blowjob wouldn't be cheating since she's getting paid and he think's of it as meaningless.

 

As stated. That is what happens with a lap dance. If you are stiff as a board (no pun intended lol) and gripping the sides of your chair, the dancer will do things to loosen you up. For example, they will place your hands on their asses. Try anything to get you to loosen up a little and enjoy it. So you then pay for another dance. That is just how it works. Sorry you ladies think it's something else. That's how a lap dance goes. If you are ignorant about a subject, you probably shouldn't give your OK until you have an understanding of that subject.

 

This depends greatly on location. In my state, it's illegal to touch a dancer or for the dancer to touch her customer. Lap dances literally are a chick hovering over the lap and dangling breasts and butt near his face, but not touching. Additionally, dancers at a club that serves alcohol cannot go full nude.

 

The establishments my friends worked at and patronized followed the letter of the law partially because the county sends plainclothes sheriffs to random clubs to check enforcement and a violation can easily cost the club owner a hefty fine, if not cost him his liquor license and possibly his business. Other clubs, especially those out of the county, have spottier enforcement.

 

That all said, even the most legit strip clubs turn a blind eye to what goes on in the VIP rooms where customers have private dances. It's fairly well known that guys in the VIP rooms are negotiating with the dancer for sex acts and she will perform those acts if she likes the guy and/or the price is right. And by fairly well known, I mean by folks who go to the clubs or who know people who work there. The average Josephine thinks it's all just watching because the law says that's all that's allowed.

 

OP stated that her state has similar laws and she thought there would be no touching during the lap dance she ok'd. She then, as HippyChick said, trusted her fiance to behave in a manner appropriate for a man in a monogamous, committed, relationship. Meaning, she expected he'd know to keep his hands off other womens naked bodies and that it might not be a good idea to follow that up by being Johnny on the Spot for a live lesbian sex show in a hotel room.

[BettyDraper]

I resent being called insecure and a drama queen. I have been to a strip CLUB before. And I think watching a dance or your buddies paying for you to have a lap dance in front of everyone is just all in good fun. I didn't even think you were allowed to grope strippers. Call me crazy but that's what I pictured strip clubs to be. Heck, I even googled strip club rules and they all mentioned no touching. No touching because there IS a difference between receiving an awkward dance for fun and then actively touching a woman in a sexual way. So when my fiancé and I were talking about ground rules before he went - no, I did NOT think to tell him no touching. There is a massive difference between getting a lap dance in a strip club with all your buddies hooting at you...and then paying 40.00 for a show in a hotel room where the woman is completely naked and you're groping her boobs, and then she goes on and does a live sex show. And the other married and engaged men have the sense to keep it together. Sorry but the fact that the other attached guys had the sense to stay out of that and just watch DOES mean something to me. It's not fun being the chump - the partner of the ONE guy who didn't have the respect and consideration. I trusted him so much to make the right decisions that we didn't make any specific ground rules - really, I have to tell my fiancé of one month that he can't grab another woman's breasts and fondle them? Naive or not I had NO idea groping was on the table when it comes to stripped.

 

And his brother is an interesting character. We are very close. He has always had diarrhea mouth when it comes to everything. He doesn't have a bad bone in his body and cannot lie. He didn't spill a ton of details - and he was defensive over my fiancé the whole time...but when I simply asked if any other the other married or engaged dudes did any of this stuff he sheepishly said "no, I guess none of them did, it was only a few of us that got the dances."

 

I also resent being told that because I have standards and had a reaction to my boyfriend taking a so called "lap dance" too far and touching another woman that he will never be honest with me again. So I am just supposed to take this?

 

You're only supposed to do what makes you feel comfortable. It's just that when you post on an open forum such as Loveshack, you may receive some replies that you don't like or agree with. That's why I enjoy posting here because people who don't know me and cannot see me are going to be more objective and more truthful.

 

It's obvious that you and your fiance have different morals and that alone is going to be a stumbling block for marriage.

I would recommend counseling to make sure that you're on the same page or else consider calling off the wedding.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Exactly! As the CSA survivor, I hate the idea that I cannot be the captain of my soul just because I was abused. Not every CSA survivor grows up to be a sex worker. Those who use escorts are not obligated to care about the psychological makeup of the service providers either.

 

I have PTSD. I once worked in a company where descriptions of abuse were common. Should my boss have given me special treatment when I made the decision to take that job?

 

I just don't buy into the poor helpless victim mentality. I prefer to rise above my challenges instead of seeking sympathy for them.

 

My big sister was sexually abused by her step dad. When found out he shot himself. Guess what, she's not a stripper either, or a prostitute or any of that.

 

Conversely I knew a stripper who was a preachers kid with no abuse or anything in her home growing up. Comes from a good family with living parents.

 

"The choices we make dictate the life we lead"

[Osmium13]

BD,

 

 

 

Errrrr? What "expected follow ups".

 

The OP didn't expect any "follow-ups".

 

Call me naiive, a stuffy Brit or whatever, but I though lap dances didn't involve the guy touching the dancer, and I expect the OP thought the same.

 

It seems the evening went on the slide when the guys got a special room and paid for "extras" and that wasn't what she expected.

 

So should she be pilloried because she was naiive ?

 

What I find more concerning is that he originally lied about it, which would make me wonder what else he's lied about...

 

 

The times (twice) I've been to a lap dancing club it's been very strict on the "no touching". Well, as far as I knew it was - and I'm a good boy, that doesn't break the rules... Much.

[Satu]

I only like to look at flesh that belongs to me

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

I only like to look at flesh that belongs to me

 

You must be a sexy beast

[jen1447]

fwiw (and yes I've been to a lot of topless bars), some degree of touching is pretty much par for the course at strip clubs. Policy usually is that patrons aren't to touch, but some of that is let go - either at the discretion of the dancer or the club owner. What they really don't want is ppl wantonly groping the ladies, but a light hand on the thighs is pretty normal and even some incidental boob touching. Again, mainly dictated by the dancer and depending on a lot of things - does she think he's ok, is he paying well, etc. They can pretty much shut you down for any reason.

 

Private party shows on the other hand, fairly rampant touching is pretty standard there. The only enforcement is generally one 'big brother' type guy against many others, so it's a losing battle to get too hardass, plus they really don't want to bc it's in private and no one's really monitoring the proceedings like a government watchdog. Those girl-on-girl shows are common, and even private 'sessions' (sex) aren't unusual. You can get that at the club too but you have to be connected and/or have $ - and I don't mean enough to pay for your little favor, I mean be a good customer overall who routinely sinks lots of money into the place. Generally no such limitations at strip parties. Not all women offer 'full service' but it's not at all uncommon.

[Mr. Lucky]

So I am just supposed to take this?

 

I think that's a question for you. What are you looking for from him - an apology? True remorse? Flay himself, dress in sackcloth and cover with ashes?

 

You have a right to be upset, it's your life. The issue becomes what you're going to do with that anger...

 

Mr. Lucky

[NTV]

I think I just read 7 pages worth of lapdance opinions and am none the wiser lol.

 

Here are my thoughts for whatever they're worth:

Are you right to be mad? Yes. Are you right to show him you're upset? Absolutely. Continuing to be angry about it ? That teaches him to not share this kinda info in the future. To be honest I bet you're the only significant other who learned anything about what happened there and you're about to set the stage so that won't happen again. You should be angry yes. You expected better behavior outta him and he let you down. I get it.

 

I think that he recognized that you would be angry and that's why he wasn't forthcoming immediately but he DID tell you. If you want that honesty to continue you're gonna have to recognize and appreciate it. Because next tim e it could be a lady at work flirting but he doesn't tell you because he's afraid he will run out of wearable ties.

 

Honestly if i were him and you weren't angry I would be surprised. Showing some territorial defense is a good thing. While it doesn't show trust it does show that you value him and the relationship.

 

I guess what I'm saying is reward the honesty and plan to let this go.

[Driver]

Honestly I am not sure what I want from him. I don't WANT him to hurt over this, and he is hurting terribly. He has apologized profusely and nearly cried, and has generally been a wreck all week. SEEING him as upset as he is makes me think that I am the one who has taken this too far. But at the same time when I give myself time to reflect I always come back to that image of him rubbing someone else's breasts and butt. Shamelessly in front of all of our engaged/married friends who have a little more class than that. I think it's one of those things where I've accepted his apology and I don't want him to hurt this much over it. But something inside ME changed - bottom line the perfect good guy I used to see... Now I realize he's capable of doing the typical dude things that girls get enraged about. I guess I lost trust, plain and simple. It also shifted my perception of him, what he did is representative of the type of guy that terrifies me.

[Driver]

Sucks because I've been with him for five years and he's the love of my life, and he's never done even one thing that made me

Think he would cross the line.

[JewelD]

Sucks because I've been with him for five years and he's the love of my life, and he's never done even one thing that made me

Think he would cross the line.

 

You didn't draw that line, though. For you to be this upset about a lapdance, you should have laid out clear ground rules. He's just a man, not a mind reader. People are not put on this Earth to please us 24/7. And it's very hard to do when you're not clear on what you want from them.

 

Yeah, you assumed he wouldn't touch anyone, you obviously assumed wrong. If it's that big of a deal that you have finally realized that neither he nor any other man on this planet is a "perfect good guy", then I can't imagine you're going to enjoy being married to him.

 

At the end of the day, he told you what happened and apologized. You need to either end the relationship or accept his apology and move on.

 

and again, you're imagining him rubbing on a stripper's butt and yet you were okay with the lap dance. If he hadn't touched her, would you not have also been fuming over her grinding that same ass on his crotch?? Maybe that's just me, I'd imagine the crotch-ass rubbing would be a bit more intense than the hand-ass rubbing.

 

You're also very preoccupied with what other people think of your relationship. Those men were not standing in that room judging and thinking about you being a chump, they were watching the strippers, drinking and having FUN. Trust, they did not and still do not care. The only 'chump' part would be you calling up somebody else to find out what your man was doing because you didn't believe him.

[BettyDraper]

Honestly I am not sure what I want from him. I don't WANT him to hurt over this, and he is hurting terribly. He has apologized profusely and nearly cried, and has generally been a wreck all week. SEEING him as upset as he is makes me think that I am the one who has taken this too far. But at the same time when I give myself time to reflect I always come back to that image of him rubbing someone else's breasts and butt. Shamelessly in front of all of our engaged/married friends who have a little more class than that. I think it's one of those things where I've accepted his apology and I don't want him to hurt this much over it. But something inside ME changed - bottom line the perfect good guy I used to see... Now I realize he's capable of doing the typical dude things that girls get enraged about. I guess I lost trust, plain and simple. It also shifted my perception of him, what he did is representative of the type of guy that terrifies me.

 

Seeing someone as "perfect" is a great way to be disappointed.

Human nature is not so black and white. Even the worse people can be kind and the best people are awful at times as well.

 

Your fiance capable of doing "typical dude things" because he is just a typical dude. He isn't an angel or superhuman who should be put on a pedestal.

 

You are the only person who can decide if you should stay with your fiance or not. Let this be a lesson in being clear about your morals and boundaries.

[jenkins95]

Driver, I know the whole lap dance thing is very seedy and distasteful, and he's been a bit of a naughty boy, but I don't feel there's any reason to be unduly worried. These things do happen, throw a little alcohol into the mix and some people get carried away. At least he has been totally honest and up front with you and is clearly embarrassed about it. Try to put it behind you both soon. I've been on a lot of stag dos in the UK and frankly, I've seen a lot worse behaviour.... And I'm fairly sure that the guys concerned weren't so forthcoming with their partners. Good luck - you guys will get past this and can start to look forward to planning your wedding. How exciting.

 

Please don't think I'm making light of your concern, but this thread reminds me of my own very awkward experiences in these situations and I hope you don't mind if I share a couple of stories. Frankly, I find strip clubs, lap dances, etc absolutely excruciating and wouldn't go within 50 miles of one by choice....... But of course, when you're on a stag night/ bachelor party, you have to go along with the plan. A couple of years back, I found myself in a Soho strip club as part of one of my best childhood friend's stag parties. The trouble is, they don't just let you sit quietly if all you want is a drink (drinks were staggeringly expensive by the way -ridiculous). From the moment you step in, eyes are on you and you are under constant pressure - intimidating stares from burly doormen and bar staff makes this very clear. After resisting for nearly an hour, I relented and went for a private dance. I was totally disinterested. I didn't want to insult the girl by looking bored, but at the same time, I didn't want to look 'turned-on', so I painted a very false 'happy' smile on my face and got through it. My friends were in fits of laughter when I came out - they'd peeped into the cubicle and seen my 'smile'...... They said that the nearest thing they could describe it as was like buzz lightyear with constipation! Our little group erupted in laughter when a second girl approached me. She told me what a stud the other girl had said I had been and how it would make her night if she could dance for me too! What a load of (very expensive) bull the whole thing is.

 

On my own stag night, my friends announced that they had lined up a lesbian show for me. I could have died - it's not my thing at all. I just wanted the earth to swallow me up. But they'd paid a lot of money and I felt I couldn't refuse and I was soon ushered behind a curtain! The two girls looked as disinterested as me, and sensing my boredom, they drifted off into their own private conversation as they went through the motions. "I've got to take my car in tomorrow", said one girl, while busy at work between the other girl's legs, "it's not starting properly". Suddenly, I was interested! "Is it an intermittent problem?" I asked? "Does it make no sound at all? Or does it turn over, but just not fire?" As she made made her way expertly over the other girl's body on autopilot, covering every inch with a kiss, we diagnosed likely causes of her car's problems and she made a mental note to check for fuel pipe blockages and dirty/wet spark plugs. As the other girl was building up her panting towards a mind blowing fake orgasm, she mentioned that she'd had a lawn mower in her garage that hadn't started for years. On learning that it had been turned on its side, I suggested a possible flooded engine. 'Yes, yes, yes", she screamed out in an almost believable state of ecstasy. "Yes, yes - I will remove the air filter, clean the spark plug and flush any spilled oil out of the cylinder - oh, yes yes yes!"

 

Ah, crazy days!

 

Sorry to temporarily hijack the thread. Good luck op - you guys will be OK!

Edited September 16, 2016 by jenkins95

[Driver]

LOL - thanks for making me smile for the first time today. What a crazy story!

[jenkins95]

LOL - thanks for making me smile for the first time today. What a crazy story!

 

That's OK driver! I'm delighted at your reaction and I want to really stress that I am not playing down the nasty shock you had.

 

In my stories, I was trying to convey what false, strange, pressurised places those strip clubs are. It's very easy to end up doing something a bit silly even when you don't really want or intend to. There's so much pressure being put on you and expectation from all the staff. I laugh now at my stories, but at the time I just wanted to get it over as quickly as possible and get out - give me a nice pub, bar or restaurant anytime over one of those places. Plus i'd be completely broke very quickly if I made a habit of going to there often!

 

Congratulations on your engagement! It's really exciting. In a few years, you'll both be laughing about this. It's something you'll be able to tease him about forever. IMHO, It's not worth stressing too much about, but of course, you can't help how you feel inside. I really hope you can both put it behind you soon - you are at such a nice, exciting time in your lives and the world is your oyster. I wish you nothing but the best!

Edited September 17, 2016 by jenkins95

[Arieswoman]

Driver,

This from Baggage Reclaim might be useful for you ;

 

It?s Just The One Chocolate Bar. It?s Just The One Values and Boundaries Bust. Or is it?

[ShatteredLady]

As I said near the start of this thread (post 10) "We're all different" & the different posts have confirmed my statement.

 

We all make assumptions & to be completely honest, although I consider myself a liberal, my view of my H would change if I knew he had participated the way her finance did. Not because I consider it cheating but because I think it's so lame! I'm more with Jenkins on this one....but Jenkins you DIDN'T need to give-in to peer pressure in your first story!!

 

Part of my bias is because I've known a couple of women who made a lot of money as 'classy' strippers....famous clients etc & they've always joked about how pathetic & easily manipulated their customers were. One put her H through law school & he always went with her (he considered her customers 'sad' too!).

 

Anyway, I was talking about 'ASSUMPTIONS'. I stated at the end of my post that I spent my 'hen party' in Amsterdam & assumptions were made by members reading....

 

"Quote:

Originally Posted by Osmium13.

Wait a minute... All that talk about the strippers and lap dancing, then at the end you casually drop in that you went to a place commonly referred to as "The Sex Capital of Europe" for your Hen?"

 

And.....

 

"Gotta love the double standards!"

 

 

I had a friend who lived in Amsterdam. I had been several times & I'd been with my (now) husband. We didn't discuss boundaries or what I'd be doing before I went. My H made assumptions & he knew me more than well enough to be correct!

 

At no point did I wear a veil or silly sign announcing why I was there. We didn't flirt with men...I don't remember us even talking to any really. Only a very brave (or stupid) man would approach a gang of self assured drunken women & expect anything more than slating humor at his expense!

 

At no point did we go to a sex show. I didn't have strippers or anything like that. No naked or barely covered men were ogled. We might of been in "The Sex Capital of Europe" but no sex was had or watched by any of us!

 

I had a wonderful 'hen party' with my girl friends.

 

My H assumed correctly what we would be getting up to. If I/we had behaved any differently it would of changed his view of me. He would of been shocked. Not just that I did anything sexy but mainly that I would be influenced by peer pressure OR that any of my friends would push me to do something that's just not 'ME'.

 

If my H went to a stag party in Vegas I would make assumptions. I wouldn't assume that he would be in a hotel room with a live sex show but I would assume that he would stay because of his friends.

I would assume that he would NOT have a lap dance. I would also assume (from TV & the friends I knew who 'danced') that the women wouldn't be completely naked & no touching would be involved.

 

I don't judge the OP for making her assumptions. Most women don't have experience of these things & we assume what we do from TV & 'rules'.

 

I picture the hotel room scene & I hate the idea of my man being one of those guys who willingly pays to experience that. I find it pretty pathetic to spend good money to be part of the show. The image does gross me out.

 

 

As I said, "we're all different" & I think it's very wrong to judge the OP for her feelings. I wouldn't dump him. I WOULD be very disappointed in him, as I think a lot of women would be. He is disappointed in himself! I could get over this & I think the OP will but it's up to her.

 

Final note - I don't think it's childish that he called the OP that night & told her he got a lap dance. I think that's honest & nice. Ok it took her a little while to get the whole story but that also shows he was embarrassed & knows he did bad by his & the OP's standards.

[OneLov]

OP,

 

There are no "right" or "wrong" feelings. But there are productive and unproductive ones. I would ask myself--what's the benefit of holding onto this anger?

 

My biggest fear for you is, like others have stated, that he will do a cost/bennefit analysis when deciding to disclose future information. Anger is a good motivator to innitiate the conflict resolution process. The problem arises when anger is retained because instead of resolution it leads to resentment.

 

Please make it a point to communicate. If you can do that effectively in your marriage that's half the battle. Everyone can work on being a more effective communicator.