Dating a man-boy

[No_Go]

You're raising very good points here. I don't want to describe the details of the argument but I called him something in lines of controlling, disrespectful because of his weird social responses to my friends that he doesn't like (he gets avoidant to them which I find embarrassing).

 

But on the 'no-win' strategy: I do believe it is a learned response. This tactic I think he learned while doing therapy. What concerns me is what let him go into this extensive therapy. He shared very early on that he was doing CBT etc for 10+ years, he said because of depression and social anxiety/Aspergers.

 

I'm afraid there was more. My suspect is there were anger management issues that he overcome with his treatment (leaving him no 'irresponsible'/ avoidant in verbal confrontations). I wish he shared more because I'm anxious I'll discover something from his past that will be a deal breaker if I dig deep enough ...

 

P.S. I don't think he had high conflict type of family members: his dad is over the top agreeable, his mom died when he was 15, no siblings.

 

I'm sure he heard and was listening. Good anger management would mean he could take those words in and diffuse or set his reaction aside to respond. The most likely answer is that he upset him enough that he was afraid of what he would say if he responded. So, he found a way to respond that wouldn't have a chance of showing his reaction, but still show you he was responding.

 

I don't know what you said or how bad it was. A second possibility is that he doesn't tolerate behavior like that and his rule for dealing with it is to refuse to respond to it or engage it. In that case, he heard what you said, listened to it very carefully, realized that it was disrespectful toward him, and that he had no respect for you for saying it. His response was to refuse to validate your conduct by even acknowledging it.

 

This is a tactic they teach for dealing with high conflict people. If they are communicating inappropriately and you point that out, you are taking a contrary position and entering into conflict, or encouraging and perpetuating it. If they are communicating inappropriately and you engage the content of what they are saying, that signals that it is ok to communicate that way. It treats inappropriate communication as a no-win situation. What do you do in a no-win situation? Don't participate in the situation.

 

When you think about the second kind of situation, don't allow yourself to feel that he handled or managed you or intentionally ignored you. No. He responded very appropriately to a no-win situation created by you. If you created the no-win situation, you're the one who did something inappropriate.

 

Also, it was still upsetting to him even if he chose not to respond. Giving no response was a tactical reaction to a no-win situation, not an indication of how much what you were saying upset him.

 

I still think it's much more likely he didn't want to say anything because he was upset enough, he was afraid he would say the wrong thing. Does he have any relatives with high conflict personalities or anger management issues? Even if you read about this tactic of not-responding in a book, it's hard to just do without practice. The normal response its to be defensive or argue back.

[Redhead14]

Oh please. OP has come for some helpful advice and not to get judged.

 

I think it's quite normal to realize someone's flaws over time. That's what dating IS—the process of learning about another person and whether or not you WANT to spend the rest of your life with them. It's entirely possible that OP didn't fully realize his propensity for immaturity, or didn't think about it all the way through before and now has.

 

OP, I've know several guys who have been sort of "forced" to grow up through circumstance (most often by unintended pregnancies), but having seen them go through those upheavals to the other side, I see that they're still quite immature/non-committal. I don't think you can change a person, they need to want to change. Yes it's been nine months and you love him, but maybe it's time to really decide if he's someone you want to be with. Yes, love is powerful, but I'm not sure it's enough.

 

You've been unsure of him for a long time. You don't seem to be getting any more sure.

 

not to get judged. -- It is not about judgement, it's about taking her by the shoulders and shaking some sense into her. This thread has gone on to 152 posts. And mostly they've all been about being in his head or projecting, etc.

 

The man is 40 years old . . . he is not going to change unless he really wants to. She should tell him what it is she wants for herself out of a relationship, what it is she needs from him. Ask him point blank what his goals are for himself and whether or not he sees a future that aligns with hers and then drop it and observe whether he begins to make an effort for her. Rather than rehashing things time and again. If there isn't much or any effort on his part to work toward a common goal within a time frame that she feels is suitable for her to feel secure enough, then she should tell him she's moving on and wish him well.

[No_Go]

That's very helpful illustration of the scenarios.

 

My biggest issue to open up communication, besides the pride (that I can try to go over), is I seem to be unable to find a good situation for serious discussions. When in both good mood, he tries to engage me in activities (doing something that takes the focus of conversation). When I'm in bad mood, I tend to argue about smaller things in stead of talking about what really bothers me. When he's in a bad mood, he shuts down and gets avoidant/irresponsible. So i'll really need to strategize time/venues of discussions of the critical topics.

 

1) The problem is you can't "go and do" major joint decisions. You also can't delegate them. They require joint communication and planning. It doesn't matter how good you are at "verbalizing your emotions and desires". Ok, communication for you guys might be slow and difficult. If that's all you've got, you're going to have to go with it. Otherwise you're never going to be able to make the joint decisions necessary to reach your goals on schedule.

 

2) Suck up the pride. With this guy or anyone else, you've got a time issue. You're very aware of it and explained it very well. You don't have time for pride.

 

"I'm almost scared to get so exposed if he's not on the same page as me..."

 

Let's chart this decision and see what you should really be afraid of.

 

...S D

C V f

N F f

 

Row C is Communication. Row N is Non-Communication. Column S is he's on the same page, or close enough to get there. Column D is he's on too different of a page for you guys to get to the same page.

 

Right off the bat, the only Victory (V) is if you guys Communicate and get on the Same page.

 

If you communicate and he's on a different page, then things don't work out. And you probably feel rejected or exposed.

 

If you don't communicate and he never would have been on the same page anyway, then things don't work out. And you wasted 4 months without knowing it was a waste.

 

If you don't communicate and he was close enough that he could have gotten on the same page with communication, yet things don't work out even though they could have. And, you end up cutting lose a guy you could have shared a future with. Fail with an upper case F.

 

The bottom has the peculiar feature that if you guys don't communicate and the 4 months runs out and you cut him loose, then you really don't end up knowing which column he was in. So, the only way to avoid Failure F is to communicate.

[testmeasure]

I checked and in MA the property acquired before marriage goes to the spouse that acquired it, but you're right, the bare minimum of protection is to have this in writing.

 

Perfect excuse to do it.

 

 

Provides protection if you move.

 

 

Provides double comfort if you have kid(s).

[testmeasure]

You're raising very good points here. I don't want to describe the details of the argument but I called him something in lines of controlling, disrespectful because of his weird social responses to my friends that he doesn't like (he gets avoidant to them which I find embarrassing).

 

But on the 'no-win' strategy: I do believe it is a learned response. This tactic I think he learned while doing therapy. What concerns me is what let him go into this extensive therapy. He shared very early on that he was doing CBT etc for 10+ years, he said because of depression and social anxiety/Aspergers.

 

I'm afraid there was more. My suspect is there were anger management issues that he overcome with his treatment (leaving him no 'irresponsible'/ avoidant in verbal confrontations). I wish he shared more because I'm anxious I'll discover something from his past that will be a deal breaker if I dig deep enough ...

 

P.S. I don't think he had high conflict type of family members: his dad is over the top agreeable, his mom died when he was 15, no siblings.

 

I am intrigued by this. The idea that this could have been a coping mechanism learned in therapy. Or a perversion of a coping mechanism learned in therapy. Somehow those "feel possible" to me. But it's not something I've seen or could describe to you. This would be one for you to experience, figure out, and explain to me.

 

Either way, I don't think he didn't hear or listen. The question is, what he did with that. I suppose if the coping mechanism or perverted coping mechanism were ingrained it might appear that way. The 2 things I describe, they actually mentally register it and directly confront it one way or another. A therapy based coping mechanism or perverted mechanism they would hear it, recognize it and divert it to the therapeutically automated way of dealing with it. So, it might look like they didn't hear it, process it, categorize it and respond. But the did all of that exactly the way they have been trained or trained themselves to.

 

What I cant figure out is what coping or perverted coping mechanism would result in exactly the same behavior as someone who is afraid of what they will do or say if they act on their reaction, and/or someone who rejects engaging that kind of behavior. Yet it seems a distinct possibility that I couldn't rule out.

Edited January 29, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

That's very helpful illustration of the scenarios.

 

My biggest issue to open up communication, besides the pride (that I can try to go over), is I seem to be unable to find a good situation for serious discussions. When in both good mood, he tries to engage me in activities (doing something that takes the focus of conversation). When I'm in bad mood, I tend to argue about smaller things in stead of talking about what really bothers me. When he's in a bad mood, he shuts down and gets avoidant/irresponsible. So i'll really need to strategize time/venues of discussions of the critical topics.

 

Once you understand the overall decision tree and what is at stake on each of the branches, what you're describing is opportunity cost.

 

How difficult is the transaction to get off in a particular direction you want to go. Opportunity cost is the cost of doing business itself. Yes, you can make stuff for X and sell it for Y. But if you don't have any phones, no one knows what you're making and what you're willing to sell it for. Investing in the stuff that even makes it possible to make a connection always costs something. So, even if you theoretically could make stuff for X and sell it for Y, you still have to subtract Z, the cost of connecting making something for X with selling it for Y by means of Z.

 

You describe an environment where at the fork in the road, the trail you need to take is always closed because of rain and mud conditions.

 

If the opportunity cost is too high, eventually the clock runs out. In which case you'll never know if the situation could have worked out if you guys had communicated.

 

If the skies never clear in time for you two to conduct the rescue mission, maybe you can't.

 

If you really want to stand your mind on end, theoretically it's possible that's his version of running out the clock exactly is: "Never allowing a good opportunity for you guys to talk and forcing you to run the clock out."

 

All I can say is, you're going to face the same question with any other guy.

 

It's quite a dilemma and makes me wonder if any economists have written about "the biological clock" in terms of economic theory. If not, there is probably a Nobel prize waiting for someone.

 

At first I had an anchor into sticking with this guy because you were judging him and describing him as wrong, when it really just seemed he was different. I think that I've transitioned more over to ok, so what would it look like for you to do better? How would you not face possibly the same things with anyone else given the time frame and goals. If communication with this guy can't happen to solve that, what's the likelihood that communication with another would.

 

LOL any thoughts on getting a sperm donor, having a kid and then revisiting the significant other? At first thought it's a joke. But seriously, the kid would be yours. Any guy you dated would be a legal stranger to the kid. You could get married and he'd still have no rights to the kid even if you got divorced. He'd have to adopt the kid to have anything.

 

Meanwhile any guy you do this running out of time dance with, if you have a kid with them, they can go for 50% custody and have equal decision making rights.

 

That's real food for thought if you're hitting a point where it's difficult to make decisions with men in a time frame that works.

Edited January 29, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

It sounds like what you describe as learned (perverted) coping mechanism (P)CM. So if (P)CM we have 1)hear/2)recognize/3)divert to automated sequence of actions. He does exactly that, usually using the following phrasing: 1)"I hear you're saying..."2)"So you made an assumption..."3)-This part varies - from trying to say something he thinks is factual-based, to saying something regarding him like "I feel like I do not deserve to...".

 

I'm actually really concerned why his responses are so mechanical. So if I understand correctly your post

-(P)CM

-behavior of someone who is afraid of their action if they act on their reaction

-behavior of someone rejecting to engage

are very similar.

I don't think is the third option, but could be the first or second. My question s: does it suggests he had anger management issues in the past that he learned to divert? If so, how concerning it is, what is the chance of relapses? I'm concerned to the point of hiring a private investigator to check his past, but to what extent the past here is predicting future?

 

P.S. He was saying he was treating depression/dysphoria, and social anxiety and/or asperger's (are for some reason th last two easy to confuse?)

 

I am intrigued by this. The idea that this could have been a coping mechanism learned in therapy. Or a perversion of a coping mechanism learned in therapy. Somehow those "feel possible" to me. But it's not something I've seen or could describe to you. This would be one for you to experience, figure out, and explain to me.

 

Either way, I don't think he didn't hear or listen. The question is, what he did with that. I suppose if the coping mechanism or perverted coping mechanism were ingrained it might appear that way. The 2 things I describe, they actually mentally register it and directly confront it one way or another. A therapy based coping mechanism or perverted mechanism they would hear it, recognize it and divert it to the therapeutically automated way of dealing with it. So, it might look like they didn't hear it, process it, categorize it and respond. But the did all of that exactly the way they have been trained or trained themselves to.

 

What I cant figure out is what coping or perverted coping mechanism would result in exactly the same behavior as someone who is afraid of what they will do or say if they act on their reaction, and/or someone who rejects engaging that kind of behavior. Yet it seems a distinct possibility that I couldn't rule out.

[No_Go]

Interesting idea: I agree the opportunity cost is very high here - confrontation in "future of the relationship" conversations that I initiate have very high opportunity cost for me, because it is something that I would have never imagined doing in any shape or form (I've build my whole life till my very late 20s around singlehood and its advantages, I'm still extremely uncomfortable sharing with friends that I'm ating and never shared with family).

 

*"Never allowing a good opportunity for you guys to talk and forcing you to run the clock out." - is that something that he could do on purpose if dissatisfied with the relationship? It definitely feels like it.

 

*"All I can say is, you're going to face the same question with any other guy." - here I agree. That is the main reason I haven't ended this relationship yet. I'm not sure I'd have better communication with another person together with the rest of my requirements for a partner (not high but specific - e.g. 'light and breezy' acting guys in general are a huge turn off for me, and seems to be very common behavior in dating).

 

"what would it look like for you to do better?" - Here is a hypothetical person I'd do better with: goal-oriented, smart, good communicator on serious topics (not only relationship related, just small talk suffocates me), empathetic (my current guy isn't), able to accommodate my quite unusual friends (my current guy is resisting which builds resentment big time; he likes the average Joe/Janes with nothing to say), and last but not least - with life that i respect. How often do one meet a person like this though... I haven't in the past 6-7 years.

 

Regarding sperm donor: IMO a kid has much better start in life with 2 biological parents, or at least 2 role models, preferably one from each gender. Also the opportunity cost of being a single parent is very high and in this day and time i'm not willing to pay it. I'm thinking if with my current guy or another, things do not move by my 33-34 birthday, I'll just do egg extraction and freezing (I can theoretically do it now, but the price and side effects are no joke, and I have 2-3 years in which I can safely postpone the procedure). With the freezed eggs, child-bearing can be postponed safely with a decade or even more.

 

Once you understand the overall decision tree and what is at stake on each of the branches, what you're describing is opportunity cost.

 

How difficult is the transaction to get off in a particular direction you want to go. Opportunity cost is the cost of doing business itself. Yes, you can make stuff for X and sell it for Y. But if you don't have any phones, no one knows what you're making and what you're willing to sell it for. Investing in the stuff that even makes it possible to make a connection always costs something. So, even if you theoretically could make stuff for X and sell it for Y, you still have to subtract Z, the cost of connecting making something for X with selling it for Y by means of Z.

 

You describe an environment where at the fork in the road, the trail you need to take is always closed because of rain and mud conditions.

 

If the opportunity cost is too high, eventually the clock runs out. In which case you'll never know if the situation could have worked out if you guys had communicated.

 

If the skies never clear in time for you two to conduct the rescue mission, maybe you can't.

 

If you really want to stand your mind on end, theoretically it's possible that's his version of running out the clock exactly is: "Never allowing a good opportunity for you guys to talk and forcing you to run the clock out."

 

All I can say is, you're going to face the same question with any other guy.

 

It's quite a dilemma and makes me wonder if any economists have written about "the biological clock" in terms of economic theory. If not, there is probably a Nobel prize waiting for someone.

 

At first I had an anchor into sticking with this guy because you were judging him and describing him as wrong, when it really just seemed he was different. I think that I've transitioned more over to ok, so what would it look like for you to do better? How would you not face possibly the same things with anyone else given the time frame and goals. If communication with this guy can't happen to solve that, what's the likelihood that communication with another would.

 

LOL any thoughts on getting a sperm donor, having a kid and then revisiting the significant other? At first thought it's a joke. But seriously, the kid would be yours. Any guy you dated would be a legal stranger to the kid. You could get married and he'd still have no rights to the kid even if you got divorced. He'd have to adopt the kid to have anything.

 

Meanwhile any guy you do this running out of time dance with, if you have a kid with them, they can go for 50% custody and have equal decision making rights.

 

That's real food for thought if you're hitting a point where it's difficult to make decisions with men in a time frame that works.

[testmeasure]

It sounds like what you describe as learned (perverted) coping mechanism (P)CM. So if (P)CM we have 1)hear/2)recognize/3)divert to automated sequence of actions. He does exactly that, usually using the following phrasing: 1)"I hear you're saying..."2)"So you made an assumption..."3)-This part varies - from trying to say something he thinks is factual-based, to saying something regarding him like "I feel like I do not deserve to...".

 

I'm actually really concerned why his responses are so mechanical. So if I understand correctly your post

-(P)CM

-behavior of someone who is afraid of their action if they act on their reaction

-behavior of someone rejecting to engage

are very similar.

I don't think is the third option, but could be the first or second. My question s: does it suggests he had anger management issues in the past that he learned to divert? If so, how concerning it is, what is the chance of relapses? I'm concerned to the point of hiring a private investigator to check his past, but to what extent the past here is predicting future?

 

P.S. He was saying he was treating depression/dysphoria, and social anxiety and/or asperger's (are for some reason th last two easy to confuse?)

 

Well, remember, I said if it was some kind of learned coping mechanism, you'd have to tell me because that's not something I've seen.

 

I wouldn't jump to anger management as an assumption. Depression? Social anxiety? It could be that getting harsh with him triggers strong fear and anxiety, not anger. If it is a coping mechanism then he's doing it to cope with some emotions that he can't deal with.

 

What you don't know is if he's doing it to avoid normal healthy emotions, which would be a dysfunctional or perverted use of the coping mechanism. Or, if he really does have inappropriate dysfunctional emotions that actually justify the use of a coping mechanism.

 

If it is a coping mechanism, without being in his mind it would be really hard to tell what emotions he's coping with. I'm not sure how you would know if he's using it to cope with anger or fear, or how you would tell if he is using it inappropriately to avoid healthy emotions or appropriately to avoid dysfunctional emotions.

 

Social anxiety goes hand in hand with Asperger's. I'm not an expert in any of this stuff, but to my understanding people with Asperger's have a hard time learning social interaction. Social interaction doesn't come naturally for them. I would put it this way: If he has Asperger's, it's easy to understand why he might also have social anxiety.

 

It's important to understand that Asperger's runs on a scale of very slight to severe. People with it tend to avoid social situations, pick one topic or hobby to immerse themselves intensely in, and they are introverted. Your guy's sports activities would be about the opposite of how you would picture someone with Asperger's. So, with what little I know, I'd assume he had it very mild. My understanding is you can't ever really cure it, all you can do is learn skills to compensate for it.

[testmeasure]

Interesting idea: I agree the opportunity cost is very high here - confrontation in "future of the relationship" conversations that I initiate have very high opportunity cost for me, because it is something that I would have never imagined doing in any shape or form (I've build my whole life till my very late 20s around singlehood and its advantages, I'm still extremely uncomfortable sharing with friends that I'm ating and never shared with family).

 

That's going to make this project of yours harder.

 

*"Never allowing a good opportunity for you guys to talk and forcing you to run the clock out." - is that something that he could do on purpose if dissatisfied with the relationship? It definitely feels like it.

 

The most likely reason you'd get that behavior is if he is satisfied with the relationship as it is right now, but there is "some reason" he is uncomfortable going further than where you guys are right now.

 

"Some reason" could be anything. Just he's not comfortable moving that fast, he's afraid, something about you, something about himself, it could be anything, it could be something reasonable, it could be something unreasonable, you'd have to communicate to find out.

 

So, he sabotages any attempt to move forward, not because he's currently dissatisfied, but exactly because he is satisfied with how things are now.

 

I'm not saying that's what's happening, it's just if you never seem to be able to even get a serious conversation started, eventually you would need to examine why that is.

 

 

*"All I can say is, you're going to face the same question with any other guy." - here I agree. That is the main reason I haven't ended this relationship yet. I'm not sure I'd have better communication with another person together with the rest of my requirements for a partner (not high but specific - e.g. 'light and breezy' acting guys in general are a huge turn off for me, and seems to be very common behavior in dating).

 

A lot of guys who aren't 'light and breezy' probably learn to act that way for dating.

 

"what would it look like for you to do better?" - Here is a hypothetical person I'd do better with: goal-oriented, smart, good communicator on serious topics (not only relationship related, just small talk suffocates me), empathetic (my current guy isn't), able to accommodate my quite unusual friends (my current guy is resisting which builds resentment big time; he likes the average Joe/Janes with nothing to say), and last but not least - with life that i respect. How often do one meet a person like this though... I haven't in the past 6-7 years.

 

Your own standards for yourself seem normal and average to you because you're used to them. I think the net worth calculator showed us that your standards for yourself are well above average.

 

It only makes sense that your standards for a partner would be as high as your standards for yourself.

 

Put that together with your comfort zone being singlehood and it's advantages, along with not even being comfortable telling friends you are dating.

 

I'm not trying to depress you. I'm reflecting back my understanding of how difficult your situation is. I guess with the hope that if you are in denial about or not aware of any part of it (like how high your standards for even yourself are), that you will come to see and understand a more accurate picture of your situation. Beyond that, whether you accept the difficulty, or modify the goal is up to you.

 

I know the two times I lowered my standards to increase my chances also ended up being the 2 times I had relationships that only lasted weeks as opposed to 5+ years. So, lowering my standards didn't work for me.

 

Regarding sperm donor: IMO a kid has much better start in life with 2 biological parents, or at least 2 role models, preferably one from each gender. Also the opportunity cost of being a single parent is very high and in this day and time i'm not willing to pay it. I'm thinking if with my current guy or another, things do not move by my 33-34 birthday, I'll just do egg extraction and freezing (I can theoretically do it now, but the price and side effects are no joke, and I have 2-3 years in which I can safely postpone the procedure). With the freezed eggs, child-bearing can be postponed safely with a decade or even more.

 

This makes complete sense. Yes, kids would do better with 2 parents. The egg freezing approach takes that into account. I can see you've thought this through.

Edited January 30, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

I see what you mean now with CM and PCM.

 

He said that in the past he used to click out and kind of lose on short term memory in stressful situations like social interactions. Maybe he had to learn another coping mechanism for this.

 

Else he is very much to the point that you describe as Asperger's symptoms EXCEPT in situations that he finds familiar/safe. E.g. for the sports, it is something that he started years ago getting out of depressive episode. He always returns to the same sport (pricy gym memberships etc is to prepare him to it, these are single activities. Also in the gym he's together with young guys, but in his words he's not even noticing them?).

 

Also his friend circles are very specific - he is ok only with people that he has a long term connection with. I took him a few times with my friends and colleagues - he acted nervous all the time, almost trying to overtalk the situation.

 

All these really frustrated me because I though he's hiding something and that's why he is acting at ease only with specific people. But from what you wrote, it could be his conditions. Btw we had plenty of conversations on that topic, I just don't know to what extent to trust his explanations.

 

Well, remember, I said if it was some kind of learned coping mechanism, you'd have to tell me because that's not something I've seen.

 

I wouldn't jump to anger management as an assumption. Depression? Social anxiety? It could be that getting harsh with him triggers strong fear and anxiety, not anger. If it is a coping mechanism then he's doing it to cope with some emotions that he can't deal with.

 

What you don't know is if he's doing it to avoid normal healthy emotions, which would be a dysfunctional or perverted use of the coping mechanism. Or, if he really does have inappropriate dysfunctional emotions that actually justify the use of a coping mechanism.

 

If it is a coping mechanism, without being in his mind it would be really hard to tell what emotions he's coping with. I'm not sure how you would know if he's using it to cope with anger or fear, or how you would tell if he is using it inappropriately to avoid healthy emotions or appropriately to avoid dysfunctional emotions.

 

Social anxiety goes hand in hand with Asperger's. I'm not an expert in any of this stuff, but to my understanding people with Asperger's have a hard time learning social interaction. Social interaction doesn't come naturally for them. I would put it this way: If he has Asperger's, it's easy to understand why he might also have social anxiety.

 

It's important to understand that Asperger's runs on a scale of very slight to severe. People with it tend to avoid social situations, pick one topic or hobby to immerse themselves intensely in, and they are introverted. Your guy's sports activities would be about the opposite of how you would picture someone with Asperger's. So, with what little I know, I'd assume he had it very mild. My understanding is you can't ever really cure it, all you can do is learn skills to compensate for it.

[No_Go]

"That's going to make this project of yours harder." - I'm aware. I came from alcoholic family, and pretty much decided for myself to immerse in my career development and pass on relationships. That started to change only 3-4 years ago (many years after I left my family and country).

 

"The most likely reason you'd get that behavior is if he is satisfied with the relationship as it is right now, but there is "some reason" he is uncomfortable going further than where you guys are right now" - from my attempts to discuss it, he's trying to get his stuff (job stability, savings, credit) in order, but was very secretive for it initially, now is much better. Also he seem concerned that I'll bail out (when we're not living together after every argument, he'd call me to dissect it and thank me I'm sticking with him). Also I'm probably not his dream partner either (I'm not sure he'll say it directly even if I ask).

 

"A lot of guys who aren't 'light and breezy' probably learn to act that way for dating. " - indeed, he did that admittedly on purpose which I find annoying but I can learn to live with....

 

"if you never seem to be able to even get a serious conversation started, eventually you would need to examine why that is." - yes I'm trying to figure this out, at least my end, because I definitely have a lot of insecurities when it comes to confrontation of any sort. I either "attack" (go my way) or avoid (go the other way), nothing in between. I guess I need some sort of therapy to figure this issue out, but I can't find a good place to start (what kind of specialist to look for? I have plenty of trauma issues from the past that maybe explain some, also never had a proper relationship model, and quite limited experience dating too - 2 relationships before him, both turned abusive. Or shall I just focus on the current relationship issues with a therapist at least initially to spare time?).

 

"Put that together with your comfort zone being singlehood and it's advantages, along with not even being comfortable telling friends you are dating. "

My whole self-esteem was build around accomplishments in school, then at work. Ever since I can remember, I was assigned a role of accomplisher by family and friends. Dating for me came in a stage that I gave up, therefore the negative association. Nobody of my family is aware I've ever dated (let alone living together or my past abusive relationships). With friends & sharing about dating I'm getting much better over time. I'm sure I'll have hard time lowering standards for partners because I can't even do it for myself.

 

After all written, I'm starting to think it is not my BF per se, it is more my own issues. Maybe he's not the most compatible partner and has a lot of issues too, which makes it even more complicated. What I'm trying to figure out is does it makes best sense : 1) to persevere to keep him in my life besides not ideal 2) stay single until I sort my issues or 3) look for somebody else more compatible risking to run into the same problems.

 

That's going to make this project of yours harder.

 

 

 

The most likely reason you'd get that behavior is if he is satisfied with the relationship as it is right now, but there is "some reason" he is uncomfortable going further than where you guys are right now.

 

"Some reason" could be anything. Just he's not comfortable moving that fast, he's afraid, something about you, something about himself, it could be anything, it could be something reasonable, it could be something unreasonable, you'd have to communicate to find out.

 

So, he sabotages any attempt to move forward, not because he's currently dissatisfied, but exactly because he is satisfied with how things are now.

 

I'm not saying that's what's happening, it's just if you never seem to be able to even get a serious conversation started, eventually you would need to examine why that is.

 

 

 

 

A lot of guys who aren't 'light and breezy' probably learn to act that way for dating.

 

 

 

Your own standards for yourself seem normal and average to you because you're used to them. I think the net worth calculator showed us that your standards for yourself are well above average.

 

It only makes sense that your standards for a partner would be as high as your standards for yourself.

 

Put that together with your comfort zone being singlehood and it's advantages, along with not even being comfortable telling friends you are dating.

 

I'm not trying to depress you. I'm reflecting back my understanding of how difficult your situation is. I guess with the hope that if you are in denial about or not aware of any part of it (like how high your standards for even yourself are), that you will come to see and understand a more accurate picture of your situation. Beyond that, whether you accept the difficulty, or modify the goal is up to you.

 

I know the two times I lowered my standards to increase my chances also ended up being the 2 times I had relationships that only lasted weeks as opposed to 5+ years. So, lowering my standards didn't work for me.

 

 

 

This makes complete sense. Yes, kids would do better with 2 parents. The egg freezing approach takes that into account. I can see you've thought this through.

[testmeasure]

I see what you mean now with CM and PCM.

 

He said that in the past he used to click out and kind of lose on short term memory in stressful situations like social interactions. Maybe he had to learn another coping mechanism for this.

I suppose that's possible but I would imagine short term memory loss would be an effect of the stress and anxiety, not a direct effect of Asperger's.

 

Else he is very much to the point that you describe as Asperger's symptoms EXCEPT in situations that he finds familiar/safe. E.g. for the sports, it is something that he started years ago getting out of depressive episode. He always returns to the same sport (pricy gym memberships etc is to prepare him to it, these are single activities. Also in the gym he's together with young guys, but in his words he's not even noticing them?).

There is also emotional damage that can happen in early childhood that creates strong fear of abandonment, social anxiety, and poor social skills.

 

If it's emotional damage from early childhood trauma, then it's not Asperger's.

 

My ex had to learn her social skills, here emotions and reactions were always a little "off". She always blamed it on Asperger's. After we had a child together things became a total disaster in a way that clearly had nothing to do with Asperger's. I knew she had early childhood trauma from being abused, after the divorce, when I looked into it, I discovered that can cause emotional damage that results in exactly the type of behavior I saw when things became a disaster. When things were normal and happy, the only warning signs the emotional damage would give were exactly all the stuff she blamed on Asperger's.

 

The best way to think of the emotional damage is their emotional development gets stopped at a very early stage and they end up having the emotional development of a toddler their entire life.

 

This makes it impossible for them to learn social skills on an intuitive level so that they come naturally.

 

Also his friend circles are very specific - he is ok only with people that he has a long term connection with. I took him a few times with my friends and colleagues - he acted nervous all the time, almost trying to overtalk the situation.

That would also fit with either Asperger's or early childhood emotional damage.

 

In either case they would not be able to develop social skills on an intuitive level so that they come naturally.

 

As a result it takes effort to be in social situations.

 

The more bland the people and the more well defined the rules for a particular social environment, the easier it would be for them. I suppose this could explain sports, because they have a clearly defined set of rules.

 

My ex thrived at her workplace probably also because work has a more narrow well defined set of rules for social interaction.

 

If your friends are interesting and different, that would go in the opposite direction and make social interaction with them take even more effort. If you have no intuitive feel for dealing with a social situation, something different or novel or more unique is going to be harder to figure out how to deal with or react to.

 

 

All these really frustrated me because I though he's hiding something and that's why he is acting at ease only with specific people. But from what you wrote, it could be his conditions. Btw we had plenty of conversations on that topic, I just don't know to what extent to trust his explanations.

 

I knew enough about Asperger's that I trusted my ex's explanation of her behavior. She also told me she had early childhood trauma from being abused. I just had no idea that could result in her emotions and reactions being slightly off and her social skills not being able to be learned at an intuitive level so they came naturally, which, as long as everything's fine, looks exactly like Asperger's. But when things fall apart you get behavior that looks absolutely nothing like Asperger's. I'm not even sure a person with Asperger's could experience the deep dark anger and rage I saw without shutting down totally before they got half way there.

 

I don't know what all explanations he gave. What you've said so far seems consistent with Asperger's except the sports stuff, which is a pretty extroverted activity. Then again, it would also be consistent with early childhood emotional damage.

 

Depression and Dysphoria could be another sign of emotional damage. But, then again someone with Asperger's could experience Depression and Dysphoria.

 

I don't know if you're 1 step ahead of me in not trusting him or if you just didn't understand what Asperger's is. Probably impossible to tell over the internet. In the case of my ex wife, I couldn't tell in my own life, and I knew generally what Asperger's was.

Edited January 31, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

"That's going to make this project of yours harder." - I'm aware. I came from alcoholic family, and pretty much decided for myself to immerse in my career development and pass on relationships. That started to change only 3-4 years ago (many years after I left my family and country).

 

Where are you from? I've worked with people from different places around the world and I've seen cultural differences cause different kinds of friction. Maybe it would help to know in this case. If you don't want to say publicly, you can private message me.

 

"The most likely reason you'd get that behavior is if he is satisfied with the relationship as it is right now, but there is "some reason" he is uncomfortable going further than where you guys are right now" - from my attempts to discuss it, he's trying to get his stuff (job stability, savings, credit) in order, but was very secretive for it initially, now is much better.

I think you're suggesting that wanting to get himself finically organized is his "some reason" for not feeling comfortable moving the relationship forward? I'm not sure if that fits or works. If he's successfully working on his financial situation, I don't see why he would sabotage attempts to just talk about moving forward. Particularly if he's trying to make it possible to move forward by working on the financial stuff, you'd think he would be open to talking about moving forward.

 

If it's something he is actually fixing specifically so that you can move forward, you'd think that would motivate him to want to talk about moving forward if that's really where his focus was, not sabotage every attempt to.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of something that can't be addressed or he doesn't want addressed. Again, it could be as simple as, that's moving too fast for him. It could be anything, but you'd have to communicate to find out.

 

Also he seem concerned that I'll bail out (when we're not living together after every argument, he'd call me to dissect it and thank me I'm sticking with him).

 

A strong fear of abandonment would fit with early childhood emotional damage. It would be more consistent with experiencing fear when the two of you have any kind of conflict. You're probably all fired up, and project on him that he's angry. You assume that he feels the same as you would or currently do in the same situation. Meanwhile, maybe he's experiencing fear and anxiety and what you're seeing is a coping mechanism to deal with that.

 

So, let's re-cap.

 

You over judge people, you get all fired up over conflict, you think clearly, are confident of your conclusions, I think it's obvious you communicate just fine, and you're very driven at work.

 

He has social anxiety, a fear of abandonment, avoids conflict and possibly communication altogether, and takes a very relaxed approach to life.

 

You had the drive and self motivation to leave your country and change your life. He had Depression and Dysphoria.

 

Your emotional landscape is starting to seem like night and day. That may have been hard to see over the internet because it's hard for you to see. When you have conflict, you assume he's angry because that's what you experience, so that's how you write about it. When he tells you about his fear and anxiety, you don't know what to make of it, so you don't fully trust his explanations. You find it easier to believe "he's hiding something and that's why he is acting at ease only with specific people. "

 

This is starting to seem beyond differences in personality or life style.

 

Also I'm probably not his dream partner either (I'm not sure he'll say it directly even if I ask).

 

What makes you say this? For some (most?) women, wouldn't that be a deal killer? So, why you would say this and how you feel about it should be interesting.

 

"A lot of guys who aren't 'light and breezy' probably learn to act that way for dating. " - indeed, he did that admittedly on purpose which I find annoying but I can learn to live with....

I probably couldn't do it, I wouldn't have the patients for that kind of thing or the acting skill.

 

But I can see why guys would do it if they can manage to.

"if you never seem to be able to even get a serious conversation started, eventually you would need to examine why that is." - yes I'm trying to figure this out, at least my end, because I definitely have a lot of insecurities when it comes to confrontation of any sort. I either "attack" (go my way) or avoid (go the other way), nothing in between. I guess I need some sort of therapy to figure this issue out, but I can't find a good place to start (what kind of specialist to look for? I have plenty of trauma issues from the past that maybe explain some, also never had a proper relationship model, and quite limited experience dating too - 2 relationships before him, both turned abusive. Or shall I just focus on the current relationship issues with a therapist at least initially to spare time?).

I've never had to have therapy. So, I'm not really qualified to advise anything here.

 

You seem pretty aware of the attack/avoid thing. I wonder if you could use that awareness to unlearn that behavior and learn a more positive reaction without having to go back and figure out the historic cause.

 

Also, if you're pretty driven at work, and are successful, how do you deal with the attack/avoid tendency at work? Maybe you use particular skills or coping strategies to avoid doing this in the work place and you could take those skills and strategies home.

 

You're clearly not using attack/avoid here and you're communicating quite well. So you are capable of different. Some people hit the internet and cant resist attack/avoid. It's the perfect environment for being overly judgemental and then ignoring people who say things you don't like.

 

From my experience with my ex, there wouldn't have even been a way to address the current relationship issues we were having without addressing her past issues.

 

That sounds like some significant stuff.

 

The part about previous relationships turning abusive is not a good sign either. How long did they last, what kind of abuse? I assume the other person was abusing you. (If you don't want to answer or want to use private messages, that's fine.)

 

"Put that together with your comfort zone being singlehood and it's advantages, along with not even being comfortable telling friends you are dating. "

My whole self-esteem was build around accomplishments in school, then at work. Ever since I can remember, I was assigned a role of accomplisher by family and friends. Dating for me came in a stage that I gave up, therefore the negative association. Nobody of my family is aware I've ever dated (let alone living together or my past abusive relationships). With friends & sharing about dating I'm getting much better over time. I'm sure I'll have hard time lowering standards for partners because I can't even do it for myself.

I'm not a big fan of dating either. I've only ever dated 6 people. That resulted in 5 relationships. Three of them were 5+ years. So, although I've only dated 6 people, I've been in relationships 70% of my adult life. The 30% where I wasn't, like you said, I was focused on me and on achievements anyway. Not that I wasn't focused on me and on achievements while I was in relationships. The two aren't incompatible. I think I'm more trying to say that focusing on me and achievements, is sufficient for me. I don't feel like I have to be dating or in a relationship. So when I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't spend all my time dating. I get the feeling that's hard for most people to do.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can identify with how you feel about dating and I don't think there's anything bad or wrong about it even if it comes from an association you have with dating at a bad point in your life. I think people who have dated too much have a harder time bonding, which probably leads to more failed relationships, and more dating and an even harder time bonding. So whatever kept you from too much dating, you're probably better for it.

 

After all written, I'm starting to think it is not my BF per se, it is more my own issues. Maybe he's not the most compatible partner and has a lot of issues too, which makes it even more complicated. What I'm trying to figure out is does it makes best sense : 1) to persevere to keep him in my life besides not ideal 2) stay single until I sort my issues or 3) look for somebody else more compatible risking to run into the same problems.

 

Well, it was hard to see at first, but I think your emotional landscapes are like night and day. You live on a ball of fiery determination that sometimes burns a little too much. He lives on an ice planet frozen fear and anxiety that is sometimes paralyzing.

 

I'm not sure if communication can bridge that. You may need to take the picture I've painted of these two different emotional landscapes, particularly the earlier more detailed description and think about them. Go forward, and continue the relationship but apply this new way of thinking that emotionally you're on a fire planet and he's on an ice planet. See if that fits and helps you make more sense of the situation you're in. If everything starts to make more and more sense when viewed from that perspective, as that becomes real to you, it will probably become more obvious what to do to more appropriately fix it now that you understand it better, or it will start to become obvious that it can't be fixed.

 

I guess that's my pitch for 1. If you take that new perspective and at least troy to continue, then even if you do end up realizing it can't be salvaged, you walk away with more confidence and certainty, as well as a more complete picture of how two people can be totally emotionally different.

 

Between 2 and 3, I'm not qualified to judge.

 

My experience with my ex has taught me to take early trauma and abuse very seriously. That together with your you 2 relationships that turned abusive, would point very strongly to 2.

 

Your time pressure would point to 3. I'd also give you credit for your awareness of your attack/avoid issue.

 

The big risk of 3 is that the trauma and lack of proper role model cause a dangerous dynamic. There can be a thing where people who have experienced trauma and abuse are oblivious to what kind of people are dangerous. Meanwhile the people who are dangerous are drawn like magnets to people who have had past trauma and abuse. This could explain why your last two relationships both eventually turned abusive. You're have no awareness of the type of people that are capable of that meanwhile they are drawn to you. Your obliviousness to the kind of emotional damage that can cause someone to be abusive could also be what caused you to be oblivious about your current guy's possible emotional damage, his fear and anxiety, and his emotional landscape.

 

The thing is, I'm not even sure if they can teach you to fix that, other than being aware of it, and memorizing red-flags that can be used to spot potentially abusive people.

 

The kinds of things you're talking about don't get fixed in therapy in 1 year. I say that because that is your timeframe for when you need to start having kids. Worse yet, sometimes it's hard to ever fix them. The issues I think my ex has from her childhood trauma and abuse are almost impossible to test for, almost impossible to diagnose, people with those issues never seek help, and even if they did, there is no known treatment.

 

This information all makes the situation even more difficult. It's hard for me to hand you solutions when you keep telling me things where each thing you tell me makes the situation not just a little more difficult, but like twice as hard. The up side is you have a lot of determination, you seem to think very clearly, you're capable of being self aware of your faults, and you seem able to communicate better about complicated things than most people. I'd like to think that reason, logic, and determination would always prevail. So, I guess the hope is if I give you an honest answer, you can somehow use it to help yourself find a solution.

Edited January 31, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

* short term memory loss would be an effect of the stress and anxiety, not a direct effect of Asperger's....If it's emotional damage from early childhood trauma, then it's not Asperger's. You are raising here very interesting point. It is something that he shared very early on after we met: that he felt like his mother had narcissistic and abusive qualities. Apparently he was a difficult child, and she was trying to stay very close to him to avoid him getting into trouble? Or at least that's how she justified her behavior towards him. He said she created fear at him from people, especially women, because he never felt good enough. I'm contemplating is that a plausible explanation for his behavior. From all that he said she was NOT physically abusive, plus she died when he was just 15. He didn't express any emotion regarding that event - it scares me but for him it seems like it was a relief, as horrible as it sounds.

 

I almost can't be empathetic with what he shared, thinking about my own upbringing: I had a very abusive father, physically, verbally etc, who also died quite young because of his alcohol abuse... In my BF case if anything, the trauma was emotional.

 

* My ex had to learn her social skills, here emotions and reactions were always a little "off". She always blamed it on Asperger's. After we had a child together things became a total disaster. What you shared about your ex, mortifies me in terms of thinking about future. Both me and my BF have burden from childhood issues. I don't know the extent of his, mine were quite severe. I don't know is it something that can be address ed preventively, but I can imagine a major life event can turn bad social skills into disastrous behavior. Just something that is on the back of my mind...

 

* Depression and Dysphoria could be another sign of emotional damage. In my BF's case, that episodes happened after his (supposedly abusive) mother died. I still can't work my mind around his extremely cold take on her death, else I'd see it as a response to losing a parent early in life. But I see your point, maybe the trauma causing his depressive episodes started much earlier.

 

* If your friends are interesting and different, that would go in the opposite direction and make social interaction with them take even more effort. I tend to become friends with people that are challenged in their social skills, which will add to the picture why their communication with my BF (also socially challenged) does not come natural and easy.

 

I suppose that's possible but I would imagine short term memory loss would be an effect of the stress and anxiety, not a direct effect of Asperger's.

 

 

My ex had to learn her social skills, here emotions and reactions were always a little "off". She always blamed it on Asperger's. After we had a child together things became a total disaster in a way that clearly had nothing to do with Asperger's. I knew she had early childhood trauma from being abused, after the divorce, when I looked into it, I discovered that can cause emotional damage that results in exactly the type of behavior I saw when things became a disaster. When things were normal and happy, the only warning signs the emotional damage would give were exactly all the stuff she blamed on Asperger's.

 

The best way to think of the emotional damage is their emotional development gets stopped at a very early stage and they end up having the emotional development of a toddler their entire life.

 

This makes it impossible for them to learn social skills on an intuitive level so that they come naturally.

 

 

That would also fit with either Asperger's or early childhood emotional damage.

 

In either case they would not be able to develop social skills on an intuitive level so that they come naturally.

 

As a result it takes effort to be in social situations.

 

The more bland the people and the more well defined the rules for a particular social environment, the easier it would be for them. I suppose this could explain sports, because they have a clearly defined set of rules.

 

My ex thrived at her workplace probably also because work has a more narrow well defined set of rules for social interaction.

 

If your friends are interesting and different, that would go in the opposite direction and make social interaction with them take even more effort. If you have no intuitive feel for dealing with a social situation, something different or novel or more unique is going to be harder to figure out how to deal with or react to.

 

 

 

 

I knew enough about Asperger's that I trusted my ex's explanation of her behavior. She also told me she had early childhood trauma from being abused. I just had no idea that could result in her emotions and reactions being slightly off and her social skills not being able to be learned at an intuitive level so they came naturally, which, as long as everything's fine, looks exactly like Asperger's. But when things fall apart you get behavior that looks absolutely nothing like Asperger's. I'm not even sure a person with Asperger's could experience the deep dark anger and rage I saw without shutting down totally before they got half way there.

 

I don't know what all explanations he gave. What you've said so far seems consistent with Asperger's except the sports stuff, which is a pretty extroverted activity. Then again, it would also be consistent with early childhood emotional damage.

 

Depression and Dysphoria could be another sign of emotional damage. But, then again someone with Asperger's could experience Depression and Dysphoria.

 

I don't know if you're 1 step ahead of me in not trusting him or if you just didn't understand what Asperger's is. Probably impossible to tell over the internet. In the case of my ex wife, I couldn't tell in my own life, and I knew generally what Asperger's was.

[elaine567]

I haven't read the whole thread and forgive me if it has moved on, but is Peter Pan Syndrome a possibility here?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501112023.htm

[No_Go]

* Where are you from? Eastern Europe. Being raised in a part of the world that was a part of the communist block has its implications for sure. I'm sometimes catching myself with behaviors that stem from there, e.g. in hierarchical situations, although I spent a lot of time and effort to become culturally-fluid (6 years in Western Europe, 3+ in the US, working in very culturally diverse teams).

 

* If it's something he is actually fixing specifically so that you can move forward, you'd think that would motivate him to want to talk about moving forward if that's really where his focus was, not sabotage every attempt to. I agree here. I think I showed that I am supportive for his efforts to fix his credit and other issues, I'd actually be more helpful if he was open and drafting the next steps together with me.

 

* I'm thinking more along the lines of something that can't be addressed or he doesn't want addressed. Yes, possibly a combination of his childhood trauma/mental issues, and some hesitation whether I'm the right fit for him.

 

* You asked What makes you say this? For some (most?) women, wouldn't that be a deal killer? So, why you would say this and how you feel about it should be interesting. - I really not see why it should be a deal breaker if he doesn't (currently) see me as a dream partner. First, it would be hypocritical - I'm trying to evaluate him as a fit for me too. Second, I think it will be a deal breaker if I needed him to boost my confidence - I don't; I'm comfortable in my own skin and with what I have to offer. Third - it would have been a concern if he was inclined to cheat, but nothing in his behavior suggests so.

 

* On the recap: You over judge people, you get all fired up over conflict, you think clearly, are confident of your conclusions, I think it's obvious you communicate just fine, and you're very driven at work....He has social anxiety, a fear of abandonment, avoids conflict and possibly communication altogether, and takes a very relaxed approach to life....You had the drive and self motivation to leave your country and change your life. He had Depression and Dysphoria., I'd also add we respond to trauma in opposite ways (we both had childhood issues), the cultural differences and also religious differences (he is Christian, I'm considering myself agnostic - although I have no problem communicating with his church friends, I fit with them just fine).

 

* Your emotional landscape is starting to seem like night and day. That may have been hard to see over the internet because it's hard for you to see. When you have conflict, you assume he's angry because that's what you experience, so that's how you write about it. When he tells you about his fear and anxiety, you don't know what to make of it, so you don't fully trust his explanations. You find it easier to believe "he's hiding something and that's why he is acting at ease only with specific people. " Well said, I can't even phase it better. Even after everything that you wrote, which is very rational, I am still not convinced he is not hiding things from me (if he indeed is, it will be a deal breaker).

 

* Also, if you're pretty driven at work, and are successful, how do you deal with the attack/avoid tendency at work? It has taken some trial and error - e.g. I did have conflicts with my PhD advisor (not uncommon...) but I learned to slow down before reacting, try to understand the other person opinion and extract from it information that I can work with, refer to written communication when things get too confrontational in person etc. You're right, I can use some of these methods for my personal life. I feel like here my own bad childhood has its effect again: most of my family were professionals and respected in their work places, but at home - all I've seen was house, and fairly large number of abusive attack/avoid situations (ranging from name calling, physical abuse, leaving home for days, keeping secrets etc)

 

* You're clearly not using attack/avoid here and you're communicating quite well. So you are capable of different. I've always been more comfortable with written communication, and formal/impersonal situations than oral communication and private situations. I agree the skills are transferable, but I have some blocks to overcome.

 

* From my experience with my ex, there wouldn't have even been a way to address the current relationship issues we were having without addressing her past issues. Did I follow correctly: her issues surfaced after having a child? Do you think she learned to cope with her issues, but was not able to do it after her life situation changed (the learned coping mechanisms became insufficient)?

 

* The part about previous relationships turning abusive is not a good sign either. How long did they last, what kind of abuse? I assume the other person was abusing you. First one: 1.5 years, on-off. The person was much older, fled off his country, just lost his job just before we met, very outgoing. He was a magnetic personality though, and I was drawn to the challenge. A month in he turned physically abusive (because I spilled his beer or something minor like this). We separated. Got back together. I decided he is not the one for me. He refused to let me go - start stalking me, started with treats he will embarrass me in front of my friends etc. He finally disappeared. Second one: ~ 6 months. He was young, attractive... and came in my life months after a major family loss. A month in he convinced me to sign a lease with him. Very soon after I discovered he has a severe issues with alcohol addiction, and is also broke and unemployable (he led to me he just got laid off 2 weeks after we moved in, I discovered afterwards he was unemployed in the past 2 years). I got trapped with a lease and all his living expenses (including liters of alcohol, daily). Every time when I attempted kicking him out, he'd turn it on me: that I'm abusing him, made him live with me in a place that he can't afford etc ('I have a whole thread live-in mooching boyfriend'). Finally he found another 'host' and eft the apartment. Soon after him I met my current BF.

 

* I think I'm more trying to say that focusing on me and achievements, is sufficient for me. I don't feel like I have to be dating or in a relationship. So when I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't spend all my time dating. I get the feeling that's hard for most people to do. I hear you. I never even went on a date until I was 27. I went on dates with ~10 people (among which are my current BF and the 2 exes described; 3 others went to 3-6 dates, but never progressed). I was happy as being single. It still feels like I opened Pandora's box with dating, especially that my former relationships weren't pretty at all.

 

* I think people who have dated too much have a harder time bonding, which probably leads to more failed relationships, and more dating and an even harder time bonding. Probably that's true - I feel like I was able to experience more emotions/bond before I started dating at all. Probably the person that I bonded most with was somebody that I never had anything with beyond platonic (I assume this fantasy-land 'relationships' are common in young teens, in my case it was much later in life...)

 

* I think your emotional landscapes are like night and day. You live on a ball of fiery determination that sometimes burns a little too much. He lives on an ice planet frozen fear and anxiety that is sometimes paralyzing. I agree. It boils down to issues beyond simple communication difficulties. It boils down to different response to childhood trauma from his side and my side, which is probably why we landed on our respective fire and ice planets:) Indeed the only immediate step that seems feasible is a watchful wait, trying to get a better understanding to each other, and making whether the better decision is to work out a reasonable compromise or walk away with the confidence that all options has been exploited and a new lesson is learned.

 

* the trauma and lack of proper role model cause a dangerous dynamic I experienced that on myself, and at the current, my bigger fear is that I will end up in a situation like your ex (unlock problems in case of big event).

 

Saying all that, I feel like I'd opt for a watchful wait for the time being. Not only because of my BF, also to gain more insight about my own issues and how to manage them. I went through the process of acceptance (it took me years to be comfortable talking about traumatic past), being aware of dangerous people/situations, and learning to manage my own reactions. There are still gaping holes - e.g. the fact I'm not comfortable sharing anything with my own family (even when I was in direct danger) suggests some serious trust issues that I need to work on. Also the fact of being quite judgemental in certain situations. I can't afford keeping these issues unresolved if I am to become a parent in the future.

 

* I'd like to think that reason, logic, and determination would always prevail. Thank you! The hope is there, the battle is not lost!

 

Where are you from? I've worked with people from different places around the world and I've seen cultural differences cause different kinds of friction. Maybe it would help to know in this case. If you don't want to say publicly, you can private message me.

 

 

I think you're suggesting that wanting to get himself finically organized is his "some reason" for not feeling comfortable moving the relationship forward? I'm not sure if that fits or works. If he's successfully working on his financial situation, I don't see why he would sabotage attempts to just talk about moving forward. Particularly if he's trying to make it possible to move forward by working on the financial stuff, you'd think he would be open to talking about moving forward.

 

If it's something he is actually fixing specifically so that you can move forward, you'd think that would motivate him to want to talk about moving forward if that's really where his focus was, not sabotage every attempt to.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of something that can't be addressed or he doesn't want addressed. Again, it could be as simple as, that's moving too fast for him. It could be anything, but you'd have to communicate to find out.

 

 

 

A strong fear of abandonment would fit with early childhood emotional damage. It would be more consistent with experiencing fear when the two of you have any kind of conflict. You're probably all fired up, and project on him that he's angry. You assume that he feels the same as you would or currently do in the same situation. Meanwhile, maybe he's experiencing fear and anxiety and what you're seeing is a coping mechanism to deal with that.

 

So, let's re-cap.

 

You over judge people, you get all fired up over conflict, you think clearly, are confident of your conclusions, I think it's obvious you communicate just fine, and you're very driven at work.

 

He has social anxiety, a fear of abandonment, avoids conflict and possibly communication altogether, and takes a very relaxed approach to life.

 

You had the drive and self motivation to leave your country and change your life. He had Depression and Dysphoria.

 

Your emotional landscape is starting to seem like night and day. That may have been hard to see over the internet because it's hard for you to see. When you have conflict, you assume he's angry because that's what you experience, so that's how you write about it. When he tells you about his fear and anxiety, you don't know what to make of it, so you don't fully trust his explanations. You find it easier to believe "he's hiding something and that's why he is acting at ease only with specific people. "

 

This is starting to seem beyond differences in personality or life style.

 

 

 

What makes you say this? For some (most?) women, wouldn't that be a deal killer? So, why you would say this and how you feel about it should be interesting.

 

 

I probably couldn't do it, I wouldn't have the patients for that kind of thing or the acting skill.

 

But I can see why guys would do it if they can manage to.

 

I've never had to have therapy. So, I'm not really qualified to advise anything here.

 

You seem pretty aware of the attack/avoid thing. I wonder if you could use that awareness to unlearn that behavior and learn a more positive reaction without having to go back and figure out the historic cause.

 

Also, if you're pretty driven at work, and are successful, how do you deal with the attack/avoid tendency at work? Maybe you use particular skills or coping strategies to avoid doing this in the work place and you could take those skills and strategies home.

 

You're clearly not using attack/avoid here and you're communicating quite well. So you are capable of different. Some people hit the internet and cant resist attack/avoid. It's the perfect environment for being overly judgemental and then ignoring people who say things you don't like.

 

From my experience with my ex, there wouldn't have even been a way to address the current relationship issues we were having without addressing her past issues.

 

That sounds like some significant stuff.

 

The part about previous relationships turning abusive is not a good sign either. How long did they last, what kind of abuse? I assume the other person was abusing you. (If you don't want to answer or want to use private messages, that's fine.)

 

 

I'm not a big fan of dating either. I've only ever dated 6 people. That resulted in 5 relationships. Three of them were 5+ years. So, although I've only dated 6 people, I've been in relationships 70% of my adult life. The 30% where I wasn't, like you said, I was focused on me and on achievements anyway. Not that I wasn't focused on me and on achievements while I was in relationships. The two aren't incompatible. I think I'm more trying to say that focusing on me and achievements, is sufficient for me. I don't feel like I have to be dating or in a relationship. So when I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't spend all my time dating. I get the feeling that's hard for most people to do.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can identify with how you feel about dating and I don't think there's anything bad or wrong about it even if it comes from an association you have with dating at a bad point in your life. I think people who have dated too much have a harder time bonding, which probably leads to more failed relationships, and more dating and an even harder time bonding. So whatever kept you from too much dating, you're probably better for it.

 

 

 

Well, it was hard to see at first, but I think your emotional landscapes are like night and day. You live on a ball of fiery determination that sometimes burns a little too much. He lives on an ice planet frozen fear and anxiety that is sometimes paralyzing.

 

I'm not sure if communication can bridge that. You may need to take the picture I've painted of these two different emotional landscapes, particularly the earlier more detailed description and think about them. Go forward, and continue the relationship but apply this new way of thinking that emotionally you're on a fire planet and he's on an ice planet. See if that fits and helps you make more sense of the situation you're in. If everything starts to make more and more sense when viewed from that perspective, as that becomes real to you, it will probably become more obvious what to do to more appropriately fix it now that you understand it better, or it will start to become obvious that it can't be fixed.

 

I guess that's my pitch for 1. If you take that new perspective and at least troy to continue, then even if you do end up realizing it can't be salvaged, you walk away with more confidence and certainty, as well as a more complete picture of how two people can be totally emotionally different.

 

Between 2 and 3, I'm not qualified to judge.

 

My experience with my ex has taught me to take early trauma and abuse very seriously. That together with your you 2 relationships that turned abusive, would point very strongly to 2.

 

Your time pressure would point to 3. I'd also give you credit for your awareness of your attack/avoid issue.

 

The big risk of 3 is that the trauma and lack of proper role model cause a dangerous dynamic. There can be a thing where people who have experienced trauma and abuse are oblivious to what kind of people are dangerous. Meanwhile the people who are dangerous are drawn like magnets to people who have had past trauma and abuse. This could explain why your last two relationships both eventually turned abusive. You're have no awareness of the type of people that are capable of that meanwhile they are drawn to you. Your obliviousness to the kind of emotional damage that can cause someone to be abusive could also be what caused you to be oblivious about your current guy's possible emotional damage, his fear and anxiety, and his emotional landscape.

 

The thing is, I'm not even sure if they can teach you to fix that, other than being aware of it, and memorizing red-flags that can be used to spot potentially abusive people.

 

The kinds of things you're talking about don't get fixed in therapy in 1 year. I say that because that is your timeframe for when you need to start having kids. Worse yet, sometimes it's hard to ever fix them. The issues I think my ex has from her childhood trauma and abuse are almost impossible to test for, almost impossible to diagnose, people with those issues never seek help, and even if they did, there is no known treatment.

 

This information all makes the situation even more difficult. It's hard for me to hand you solutions when you keep telling me things where each thing you tell me makes the situation not just a little more difficult, but like twice as hard. The up side is you have a lot of determination, you seem to think very clearly, you're capable of being self aware of your faults, and you seem able to communicate better about complicated things than most people. I'd like to think that reason, logic, and determination would always prevail. So, I guess the hope is if I give you an honest answer, you can somehow use it to help yourself find a solution.

[No_Go]

Likely: after discussions in this tread and elsewhere, I'm staring to think he's frozen in his social development because of past trauma...

I haven't read the whole thread and forgive me if it has moved on, but is Peter Pan Syndrome a possibility here?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501112023.htm

[testmeasure]

How are things going? Any updates?

[No_Go]

I have responded with a lot of details in PM. Thank you for taking the time and effort for these PM.

 

In a nutshell, not much of progress has happened. We have both been traveling a lot recently, and I still feel resentful for certain traits of my BF that I consider immature (although after all the discussions, I think I have a pretty good sense where this all is coming from).

 

Time of the lease is up in 3 months, I need to take a decision by that time, preferably earlier, on how to proceed. I've taken a not-so-smart strategy of blaming him for his (in my opinion) mistakes, and it seems like his anxiety (about not feeling accepted) paralyses him.

 

My own biggest fear is if/how to introduce family, I went in detail about it in the last private message. It will be an year in March, and I really want to take this step, because the double-life creates a lot of anxiety for me, however I'm also still insecure about the future (doubling the anxiety). Maybe I'm a woman-girl myself, I can't toughen up like an adult, make decisions and take actions when it comes to my own relationship:D