Dating a man-boy

[testmeasure]

From OP:

 

"Ok, but he has an Ivy League education. A well-paying job too.

 

Just he's working without any desire and ambition to excel, he'd be more than happy to stay were he is and devote to his hobbies, friends etc.

 

Lives with me. Takes care for his part of the bills and admittedly 75% of the housework."

 

 

I know the conversation has probably moved on from here, but I hit this and just had to comment.

 

I worked for many years in a professional field. There were a lot of very "driven" people around me, usually the men. It was the driven ones who had an unhappy spouse and home life.

 

The women with families tended more toward maintaining a "work/life balance". That's literally the term used. It seemed like the women generally wanted men who could also maintain a "work/life balance"

 

A lot of women would perceive exactly what you describe above as someone who can balance their personal life with their work life. They would perceive someone who was still all wrapped up in their career as being at an earlier less mature stage of life where they are not yet able to balance their personal life with there work life and hence not ready or able to participate in having or starting a family.

 

I'm still less than half way through this, so there may be context after this that changes my opinion. The one thing I'd want to test in this situation is how is he with kids? If you did start a family and he continued sports with other adults half his age, that would really suck. If he loves children and would readily switch to sports and outdoor activities with family, this would be ideal.

 

One more thing, being frugal about meals out, but finding the price point for electronics where you pay more, but get the biggest bang for your buck, makes total sense to me. I see nothing inconsistent or surprising about it. Now if he's paying top dollar for the highest model the day it's released, I take that back.

 

Like one of the other posters is saying, at least as far as I've gotten in this thread I don't see any immature behavior.

 

If he does 75% of the family work once you have a family, that leaves you free to be driven. If you dump him and go found someone else driven, you can't raise a family with 2 people who only contribute 25% each. That only gets the job half done. I suppose you can outsource to paid strangers, but that's not really the same as having at least one parent with a good work/life balance.

 

So if you can adjust to it, his work/life balance might compliment your work drive.

[testmeasure]

Treats me well in general, but is sort of controlling. Eg told me to keep my work at work??!!?? I never made a remark about his activities, so I feel like he is kind of annoyed that I'm surpassing him career wise and I'm afraid he won't be happy with it.

 

Being able to keep work and personal life separate actually takes more maturity than letting your career take over your life.

 

That's not a statement that a good work/life balance is superior to being very career driven. Which is better depends on happiness, financial condition, stage of life, whether there's a family involved.

 

Particularly for men, not letting your career take over your life is harder than letting it and requires more maturity.

 

Most people out of college in their 20s who are early on in a professional career are easily able to immerse themselves in their career.

 

When they start to have families in their 30's and 40's, it's actually quite difficult to pull back from that habit and establish a more appropriate work/life balance with a family in the picture.

 

If he has a well paying job and all he spends money on is electronics and sports activities, something doesn't add up. He doesn't own a house, so far no mention of a sports car. Something just doesn't add up. The money from his well paying job has to be going somewhere other than just bills, activities, and electronics. It would actually take a lot of effort to spend all of ones money from a well paying job on just those things.

 

If he had a house or a boat and kept making improvements and doing work on them, it would make sense. With a house or boat, it can actually take effort not to spend all of one's money on them.

[testmeasure]

A lot of people were just never taught financial skills or responsibility.

 

With both of the LTR I had that started after they were out of school and financially independent, their personal finances were in some kind of negative shape in the beginning. It was always just due to lack of skill.

 

In both cases, they were eager to hear advice on how to fix it. They learned from what I had to offer, and did well maintaining it as a skill in the relationship. In other words, didn't feel even the least bit that I had to "keep them in line". I taught them to fish and they did it themselves.

 

When you understand financial stuff, it's very hard to understand why people don't pay off their debts, live within their means, and save.

 

I could sit down with a gf who had 3 credit cards, 2 student loans, and some medical bills, and they didn't know the interest rates of any of them. Let alone use that to prioritize which one to pay off first while keeping the others up to date. 6 months into the relationship they could be debt free from stuff they had carried more than a year prior to the relationship. They made enough money and were willing to take care of their debts. They just didn't know how to go about doing it.

 

If you listen to a financial consumer advice radio show like Clark Howard, it quickly becomes obvious that there are tons of people out there who don't know how to do simple financial things that are well with in there means to do.

 

What's a problem is if they are unable to learn it.

 

On the house thing. There is a lot that can go wrong if you jointly own real estate before marriage and the relationship ends. Think about it this way, if you were going into a business venture with a partner on a commercial property, and all you did was put both your names on the title and both your names on the debt obligation, that's like doing business without a contract. No where would it be specified who owns what percent, what happens if one party can't maintain their end, conditions for one partner to buy the other out, how to split any revenue or proceeds from selling. Part of the point of marriage and what it provides is contractual framework within which you can own joint property without worrying about forming a separate individual contract for each piece of property.

 

If you want a house sooner rather than later, get one yourself, in your name.

 

 

.

Edited January 22, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

I actually see the point that it is not a great situation to have 2 highly driven people starting a family. If he had a humble lifestyle I'd even prefer to be the primary breadwinner and if we ever have kids - let him be the primary caregiver. But I just can't foresee myself supporting him for expensive gym memberships or useless electronic items.

 

Also I'm scared he'll not be supportive of my more driven lifestyle. When I tell him people in my company work over the weekends, his comment is "it is concerning they don't want to have personal lives". Telling him i want to be on an executive position in a couple of years... I'm getting back his puzzled look.

 

Btw for the housework: I used to live alone for years, then with roommates, it was never a problem for me to self-maintain. Just HE wants to do all the cooking, groceries, repairs, most laundry... So I'm left with doing what he hasn't done already (personal laundry and cleaning here and there), not because I can't/don't want - he doesn't leave me space to contribute because he likes doing this himself.

 

From OP:

 

"Ok, but he has an Ivy League education. A well-paying job too.

 

Just he's working without any desire and ambition to excel, he'd be more than happy to stay were he is and devote to his hobbies, friends etc.

 

Lives with me. Takes care for his part of the bills and admittedly 75% of the housework."

 

 

I know the conversation has probably moved on from here, but I hit this and just had to comment.

 

I worked for many years in a professional field. There were a lot of very "driven" people around me, usually the men. It was the driven ones who had an unhappy spouse and home life.

 

The women with families tended more toward maintaining a "work/life balance". That's literally the term used. It seemed like the women generally wanted men who could also maintain a "work/life balance"

 

A lot of women would perceive exactly what you describe above as someone who can balance their personal life with their work life. They would perceive someone who was still all wrapped up in their career as being at an earlier less mature stage of life where they are not yet able to balance their personal life with there work life and hence not ready or able to participate in having or starting a family.

 

I'm still less than half way through this, so there may be context after this that changes my opinion. The one thing I'd want to test in this situation is how is he with kids? If you did start a family and he continued sports with other adults half his age, that would really suck. If he loves children and would readily switch to sports and outdoor activities with family, this would be ideal.

 

One more thing, being frugal about meals out, but finding the price point for electronics where you pay more, but get the biggest bang for your buck, makes total sense to me. I see nothing inconsistent or surprising about it. Now if he's paying top dollar for the highest model the day it's released, I take that back.

 

Like one of the other posters is saying, at least as far as I've gotten in this thread I don't see any immature behavior.

 

If he does 75% of the family work once you have a family, that leaves you free to be driven. If you dump him and go found someone else driven, you can't raise a family with 2 people who only contribute 25% each. That only gets the job half done. I suppose you can outsource to paid strangers, but that's not really the same as having at least one parent with a good work/life balance.

 

So if you can adjust to it, his work/life balance might compliment your work drive.

[No_Go]

He's spending a lot on car maintainance but it is not that.

 

Here is the mystery: he started his well paid job literally 6 months before we started dating. Before than he was a disaster professionally, had been laid off/ fired/ left because he didn't like several jobs, moved states A LOT, basically burned his savings every other year for moving. I'm f*cling scared he'll repeat an episode like what I described, although he says it is not the case

 

Being able to keep work and personal life separate actually takes more maturity than letting your career take over your life.

 

That's not a statement that a good work/life balance is superior to being very career driven. Which is better depends on happiness, financial condition, stage of life, whether there's a family involved.

 

Particularly for men, not letting your career take over your life is harder than letting it and requires more maturity.

 

Most people out of college in their 20s who are early on in a professional career are easily able to immerse themselves in their career.

 

When they start to have families in their 30's and 40's, it's actually quite difficult to pull back from that habit and establish a more appropriate work/life balance with a family in the picture.

 

If he has a well paying job and all he spends money on is electronics and sports activities, something doesn't add up. He doesn't own a house, so far no mention of a sports car. Something just doesn't add up. The money from his well paying job has to be going somewhere other than just bills, activities, and electronics. It would actually take a lot of effort to spend all of ones money from a well paying job on just those things.

 

If he had a house or a boat and kept making improvements and doing work on them, it would make sense. With a house or boat, it can actually take effort not to spend all of one's money on them.

[No_Go]

Yes I agree many people lack basic financial literacy. My BF has been one of those. He's learning, if he was open to listening to me the process would have been much faster, but I get sexist vibes from him - he somewhat believes men should be leading finances in a household, which is hilarious and ridiculous in our case considering our current standings. I could be overreacting though, not 100% sure, maybe he's just nervous discussing finances with me.

 

Regarding house... Marriage issue is an elephant in the room. I'm NOT willing to wait long on purchasing, but it won't make sense to buy a condo if he is going to marry me and based on joined income - we could afford a single-family house. I'm not ok with initiating marriage talk though, it is up to him, I think he's very well aware we're not dating for "fun" and I'm pushing 32 this year, so time for kids is limited. I don't know how to approach the subject, and I'm afraid if he doesn't approach it himself - I won't go on another lease with him (we have 4 months left on the current) and likely leave the relationship.

 

P.S. I also believe he's very uncomfortable with cohabitation because of his religion and the fact that marriage is not discussed is 1) he either doesn't want it with me/is hesitant (I know he wants it in general, he stated this very early on), or 2) he wants to fix his financial issues first (understandable but he should have spelled this out)

 

A lot of people were just never taught financial skills or responsibility.

 

With both of the LTR I had that started after they were out of school and financially independent, their personal finances were in some kind of negative shape in the beginning. It was always just due to lack of skill.

 

In both cases, they were eager to hear advice on how to fix it. They learned from what I had to offer, and did well maintaining it as a skill in the relationship. In other words, didn't feel even the least bit that I had to "keep them in line". I taught them to fish and they did it themselves.

 

When you understand financial stuff, it's very hard to understand why people don't pay off their debts, live within their means, and save.

 

I could sit down with a gf who had 3 credit cards, 2 student loans, and some medical bills, and they didn't know the interest rates of any of them. Let alone use that to prioritize which one to pay off first while keeping the others up to date. 6 months into the relationship they could be debt free from stuff they had carried more than a year prior to the relationship. They made enough money and were willing to take care of their debts. They just didn't know how to go about doing it.

 

If you listen to a financial consumer advice radio show like Clark Howard, it quickly becomes obvious that there are tons of people out there who don't know how to do simple financial things that are well with in there means to do.

 

What's a problem is if they are unable to learn it.

 

On the house thing. There is a lot that can go wrong if you jointly own real estate before marriage and the relationship ends. Think about it this way, if you were going into a business venture with a partner on a commercial property, and all you did was put both your names on the title and both your names on the debt obligation, that's like doing business without a contract. No where would it be specified who owns what percent, what happens if one party can't maintain their end, conditions for one partner to buy the other out, how to split any revenue or proceeds from selling. Part of the point of marriage and what it provides is contractual framework within which you can own joint property without worrying about forming a separate individual contract for each piece of property.

 

If you want a house sooner rather than later, get one yourself, in your name.

 

 

.

[No_Go]

I do understand your point about lack of respect (don't get how is related to loyalty though), but I can't stop my thoughts. Again, I am respectful when I talk to him or to others for him, I just use this forum to vent my thoughts that are causing so much anxiety.

 

I think I'd be way more forgiving if he was my age or younger, but at 38... He's a middle aged man who had to have his sh*t together by now... I think I'm more concerned by the root cause (I suspect huge turmoils in the past, just hope it was job irresponsibility, not crime/drugs ). When you hire a new employee you form opinion based on past (resume), why would it be different in private life?

 

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I still wanted to share something.

 

As a man, if I ever found out that my GF was referring to me as a "man-boy" I would break things off with her. Speaking such a way about your SO shows a lack of respect, and a lack of loyalty.

[testmeasure]

I actually see the point that it is not a great situation to have 2 highly driven people starting a family. If he had a humble lifestyle I'd even prefer to be the primary breadwinner and if we ever have kids - let him be the primary caregiver. But I just can't foresee myself supporting him for expensive gym memberships or useless electronic items.

 

Also I'm scared he'll not be supportive of my more driven lifestyle. When I tell him people in my company work over the weekends, his comment is "it is concerning they don't want to have personal lives". Telling him i want to be on an executive position in a couple of years... I'm getting back his puzzled look.

 

Btw for the housework: I used to live alone for years, then with roommates, it was never a problem for me to self-maintain. Just HE wants to do all the cooking, groceries, repairs, most laundry... So I'm left with doing what he hasn't done already (personal laundry and cleaning here and there), not because I can't/don't want - he doesn't leave me space to contribute because he likes doing this himself.

 

 

Paragraph 1 above: Like I said, if he's buying top end the day it comes out, I take it all back. You're the one with feet on the ground. If there is something irrational going on with electronics and gym memberships, then ok.

 

 

Paragraph 2 above: I would word the first as "it's a shame they are responding to day to day work emergences while life passes them by". Don't they want a personal life sounds more childish. It's almost like, but it's the weekend, don't they want to go play. Which would show no understanding of the experience of a day to day work "emergency". But if he's not so good at communication, when he says don't they want a personal life, maybe he means something more like, it's a shame their life is passing them by while they put out the latest fire at work.

 

It's hard to conclude much by a puzzled look. Maybe he's trying to figure you out as much as you are him. Maybe that implies to him thousands of personal choices different from what he would do and he's trying to process it. In the profession I was in about half the people immediately knew they NEVER wanted to be a manager let alone rise up the management chain. They'd all probably give a puzzled look at anyone who said they wanted to go into management. Until you know the thoughts behind the puzzled look, it's hard to comment.

 

I agree that the overall question you pose in paragraph 2 is a critical one. Will he be comfortable with and supportive of you being more driven is as important as whether you can be comfortable and supportive of him maintaining a work/life balance. You're asking the right question, and you should be asking the reverse of it for yourself. I don't think the reactions you describe are enough to know one way or another.

 

 

Paragraph 3 above: Here is my huge question. There is a tension between paragraph 1 and paragraph 3. He wants to do sports with guys half his age and buy expensive electronics. He also wants to take charge of and take care of the household. What I have ZERO read on is, what happens when it's a family and there are kids? If there are kids and he does the laundry, then checks out and goes off to do sports with guys half his age, that would be a nightmare. On the other hand, if when he has kids, he does 75% of the family stuff and child care because he "wants to", that sounds like a paradise situation for you to go off and be driven at work.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 22, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

He's spending a lot on car maintainance but it is not that.

 

Here is the mystery: he started his well paid job literally 6 months before we started dating. Before than he was a disaster professionally, had been laid off/ fired/ left because he didn't like several jobs, moved states A LOT, basically burned his savings every other year for moving. I'm f*cling scared he'll repeat an episode like what I described, although he says it is not the case

 

Ok, that would do it. Particularly with a work/life balance, he may have gone on vacation after being out of a job, and then only looked as he was running out of money. That would be consistent with his views about the importance of having a personal life and the unimportance of saving. Exactly that behavior could also explain taking the next available job where ever it was when he started to run out of money. None of that is economically efficient.

 

The thing is, this also shows he was able to consistently get rehired. The question is, how much of his industry is in the area where you live. If there is enough of his industry in the area, and you could accept that it might take longer for him to get rehired without moving, this might never be a problem.

 

Suppose he did go on vacation after being out of a job, wait till he was out of money, take the next thing available regardless of where, and move. He was a single guy. He wasn't harming himself or anyone else. It was consistent with his approach to life and money. He always got rehired.

 

The question is, if he's no longer single, but on a team, how would this be handled. I don't see any way to answer that other than sitting down and working it out as a team.

[testmeasure]

Yes I agree many people lack basic financial literacy. My BF has been one of those. He's learning, if he was open to listening to me the process would have been much faster, but I get sexist vibes from him - he somewhat believes men should be leading finances in a household, which is hilarious and ridiculous in our case considering our current standings. I could be overreacting though, not 100% sure, maybe he's just nervous discussing finances with me.

 

Regarding house... Marriage issue is an elephant in the room. I'm NOT willing to wait long on purchasing, but it won't make sense to buy a condo if he is going to marry me and based on joined income - we could afford a single-family house. I'm not ok with initiating marriage talk though, it is up to him, I think he's very well aware we're not dating for "fun" and I'm pushing 32 this year, so time for kids is limited. I don't know how to approach the subject, and I'm afraid if he doesn't approach it himself - I won't go on another lease with him (we have 4 months left on the current) and likely leave the relationship.

 

P.S. I also believe he's very uncomfortable with cohabitation because of his religion and the fact that marriage is not discussed is 1) he either doesn't want it with me/is hesitant (I know he wants it in general, he stated this very early on), or 2) he wants to fix his financial issues first (understandable but he should have spelled this out)

 

I'm the guy, and I've never experienced the gender bias against me in terms of financial responsibility. Although, my understanding is it can work the other way as well. Basically which ever parent was in change of family financial matters, that becomes the assumed gender of that role for a child growing up. Either way, it becomes another reason why a lot of people think financial stuff is outside their realm or ability, so they never learn very basic skills.

 

Maybe in his culture and religion financial stuff was to be handled by the husband. But maybe in his particular family, behind some inner closed door in the house it was secretly his mom that handled the financial stuff. In that case he wouldn't learn it from his dad or his mom. Who knows.

 

The house isn't even an issue then. It would take you longer to do a real estate deal than the time limit you've put on sorting this relationship out.

 

Talking about marriage after 1 year seems early to me. It sounds like you are unclear on his views but think he's leaning toward or willing to agree to sooner rather than later. Letting it go unaddressed, but putting a time limit on it makes the outcome a gamble. He doesn't know your time limit, so maybe he addresses it by then, maybe not. There is a chance of it happening and there is a chance of it not happening. I wouldn't leave that kind of thing to chance.

 

What is your understanding of how much time you have left to have children? I'm not any kind of expert in the area, but I thought it was after 40 that risks started to go up and fertility started to drop off.

Edited January 22, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

Thanks, your answers are awesome, very informative.

 

Regarding expensive purchases, excluding a hiccup here and there, he's going for quality products, not latest models. I just wonder why he need at all some of the items but I don't interfere. Regarding gyms, I can't make an informed call is it really a thing or just a splurge because I'm not into sports. I assume a little of both: "I need specific equipment (real)" and "it worked for me in the past (sentimental)"

 

Regarding work attitudes: he's not the best communicator, also there are some mom-issues (he always refer to his deceased workaholic mom)

 

Regarding changes if/when kids are an issue: I'm confused by his responses. Ranging from "my friend xxx and his wife have four kids but manage to have single activities" to "I'll play xxx sport even if it is my last time this year". I know he really wants kids (maybe big time peer pressure) but acts a bit clueless (refers to friends/books, not what he wants to do)

 

Paragraph 1 above: Like I said, if he's buying top end the day it comes out, I take it all back. You're the one with feet on the ground. If there is something irrational going on with electronics and gym memberships, then ok.

 

 

Paragraph 2 above: I would word the first as "it's a shame they are responding to day to day work emergences while life passes them by". Don't they want a personal life sounds more childish. It's almost like, but it's the weekend, don't they want to go play. Which would show no understanding of the experience of a day to day work "emergency". But if he's not so good at communication, when he says don't they want a personal life, maybe he means something more like, it's a shame their life is passing them by while they put out the latest fire at work.

 

It's hard to conclude much by a puzzled look. Maybe he's trying to figure you out as much as you are him. Maybe that implies to him thousands of personal choices different from what he would do and he's trying to process it. In the profession I was in about half the people immediately knew they NEVER wanted to be a manager let alone rise up the management chain. They'd all probably give a puzzled look at anyone who said they wanted to go into management. Until you know the thoughts behind the puzzled look, it's hard to comment.

 

I agree that the overall question you pose in paragraph 2 is a critical one. Will he be comfortable with and supportive of you being more driven is as important as whether you can be comfortable and supportive of him maintaining a work/life balance. You're asking the right question, and you should be asking the reverse of it for yourself. I don't think the reactions you describe are enough to know one way or another.

 

 

Paragraph 3 above: Here is my huge question. There is a tension between paragraph 1 and paragraph 3. He wants to do sports with guys half his age and buy expensive electronics. He also wants to take charge of and take care of the household. What I have ZERO read on is, what happens when it's a family and there are kids? If there are kids and he does the laundry, then checks out and goes off to do sports with guys half his age, that would be a nightmare. On the other hand, if when he has kids, he does 75% of the family stuff and child care because he "wants to", that sounds like a paradise situation for you to go off and be driven at work.

 

 

 

 

.

[No_Go]

You guessed it pretty much. He had four months between jobs a 2-3 years ago, otherwise he pretty much hopped directly to the next one for better pay/conditions. He drained his savings for vacations and moving expenses

 

I don't think he has many options here, but also non zero and his employment is quite stable now. I remember 2 months after we started dating he got a better opportunity offered and was about to jump on interview but stopped himself, in his words, because he felt we're getting somewhere (I met his family right at that time)... Hope that's a good sign (or bad, depending how we read it)

 

But yeah, we need to work on this as a team if we stay together. Just where I'm now geographically is the best location for my skills and expertise, and I'm so tired of moving around...

 

Ok, that would do it. Particularly with a work/life balance, he may have gone on vacation after being out of a job, and then only looked as he was running out of money. That would be consistent with his views about the importance of having a personal life and the unimportance of saving. Exactly that behavior could also explain taking the next available job where ever it was when he started to run out of money. None of that is economically efficient.

 

The thing is, this also shows he was able to consistently get rehired. The question is, how much of his industry is in the area where you live. If there is enough of his industry in the area, and you could accept that it might take longer for him to get rehired without moving, this might never be a problem.

 

Suppose he did go on vacation after being out of a job, wait till he was out of money, take the next thing available regardless of where, and move. He was a single guy. He wasn't harming himself or anyone else. It was consistent with his approach to life and money. He always got rehired.

 

The question is, if he's no longer single, but on a team, how would this be handled. I don't see any way to answer that other than sitting down and working it out as a team.

[No_Go]

I noticed his dad always pays for us when going out together, which I thought is weird ... But may suggest a family dynamics.. Actually, real mom dies when he was in high school. She was quite authoritative and independent from his descriptions though.

 

Regarding children timing : after 35 the ovarian reserve rapidly declines. Also, the quality of the remaining eggs declines too (mutation frequency increases). Yes, many women are fertile/have healthy kids 35-40 (even 40-45), but unfortunately, I have too much knowledge on the topic to be wiling to gamble. Of course there is the egg freezing option but it will cost me a fortune (and there are not-negligible side effects of the procedure).

 

So say 2 kids, production time each year if lucky (giving just 3 months for conception each), plus extra 6 months for recovery between the 2: it is 2.5 years. I'm 31.5, so to finish before 35, I have an year left.

 

Another reason to discuss marriage sooner than later: I know cohabitation is against my BFs religious beliefs. His friends are frowning upon it, I don't want to be perceived badly by them. Also, the idea of purchasing real estate really hinges upon marriage plans, I was in denial about it till recently but it is the unfortunate fact.

 

I'm the guy, and I've never experienced the gender bias against me in terms of financial responsibility. Although, my understanding is it can work the other way as well. Basically which ever parent was in change of family financial matters, that becomes the assumed gender of that role for a child growing up. Either way, it becomes another reason why a lot of people think financial stuff is outside their realm or ability, so they never learn very basic skills.

 

Maybe in his culture and religion financial stuff was to be handled by the husband. But maybe in his particular family, behind some inner closed door in the house it was secretly his mom that handled the financial stuff. In that case he wouldn't learn it from his dad or his mom. Who knows.

 

The house isn't even an issue then. It would take you longer to do a real estate deal than the time limit you've put on sorting this relationship out.

 

Talking about marriage after 1 year seems early to me. It sounds like you are unclear on his views but think he's leaning toward or willing to agree to sooner rather than later. Letting it go unaddressed, but putting a time limit on it makes the outcome a gamble. He doesn't know your time limit, so maybe he addresses it by then, maybe not. There is a chance of it happening and there is a chance of it not happening. I wouldn't leave that kind of thing to chance.

 

What is your understanding of how much time you have left to have children? I'm not any kind of expert in the area, but I thought it was after 40 that risks started to go up and fertility started to drop off.

[testmeasure]

Thanks, your answers are awesome, very informative.

 

Regarding expensive purchases, excluding a hiccup here and there, he's going for quality products, not latest models. I just wonder why he need at all some of the items but I don't interfere. Regarding gyms, I can't make an informed call is it really a thing or just a splurge because I'm not into sports. I assume a little of both: "I need specific equipment (real)" and "it worked for me in the past (sentimental)"

 

 

So, he spends feely on electronics and sports activities, and any thing left over, he spends on vacations. He doesn't see the need to save because he's willing to work till he's 70 and values the ability to enjoy life along the way. That's all consistent and coherent. It's not exactly how I would do things. But I don't think it's immature either.

 

Is it even uncommon at his age? I'm like you. I have a clear picture of what kinds of things people should be doing financially, so I assume more people are doing it. When I wrote the first paragraph, I had no idea, I'd be writing what follows.

 

Google a "percentile net worth calculator". Set the age range from 38 to 38. Plug in some numbers. The result is shocking. Remember, net worth includes everything. Savings, investments, retirement funds, assets, property, house, jewelry. But it also includes liabilities by subtracting them out. Mortgages, car loans, credit card debt.

 

I know the numbers are shocking. So, so I thought I was low-balling it when I plugged in $50,000 for age 38. Surely by age 38, the average person has more than 50k of value to their name. But no, that would put him in the 63rd percentile.

 

The average person his age is worth a grand total of: $24,130.00

 

Now I realize that if he has to save up for a gym membership, and has some debt, his current percentile net worth may actually be quite low. That's not the point I'm trying to make. Even if he's only contributing a "minimal" amount to a 401k or IRA, if he's been doing it consistently, over a long enough time, that could put him near the 24k average. But where he falls is not the point.

 

The real point is almost 2/3 of the people his age don't even have a net worth of 50k. I would bet that half the 1/3 that do have more than 50k, it's mostly home equity. Of the 1/6 of people that age who have actual cash, money, savings, or retirement funds, half of them probably got inheritance, an insurance settlement, or have rich parents that pay for much more than his dad does. The point being, probably only about 10% of the people his age actually act the way you think everyone his age should be acting. Of that probably only 5% are doing anything outside their 401k and IRA.

 

Of course, other than the numbers the median net worth calculators spit, out, most of what I'm saying is wild guesses based on the kinds of assets people own. But, of the 1/3 of people who do have more than 50k, it simply can't be that none of those people own a home or got inheritance. It's much more likely that the people in that 1/3 are exactly the ones that own a home or got inheritance. Once you peel all that stuff out, however much it is, the remaining people may be acting the way you think everyone does by that age.

 

You might want to actually do what I suggest and google a percentile net worth calculator and play around with it some. Whether it's this guy or someone else, what you're going to find out there financially is going to be shockingly different than what you expect to be the norm.

 

If you go back to dating, and find someone your own age, the average person age 31 only has $14,450.00. Heck, that could just be a new pickup tuck they saved up and bought with cash.

 

You may need to recalibrate your expectations from "they have their retirement all planned out and are saving money" to, "if they own a house, it might have some equity and they might own their car free and clear". (Or keep your expectations where they are and realize what you're looking for isn't the norm.)

 

I think having a lot of drive and ambition at work and a good sense of financial responsibility is a combination that is going to work out extremely well for you. Work and money are things a lot of people struggle with. If finding someone close to your level in a short time is a requirement, that could be a challenge.

 

There are probably people with much lower incomes who know what it is like to have to budget and have more of an appreciation for money. There may be more people who earn less that are trying to save but just don't show up on the percentile net worth calculator because they don't earn enough to save much. But even if they have the up-side of being more financially responsible, they lack the upside this guy has with the education and good paying job. And, on top of that, you don't know if they would continue to be as financially responsible if they had more money.

Edited January 23, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

Regarding changes if/when kids are an issue: I'm confused by his responses. Ranging from "my friend xxx and his wife have four kids but manage to have single activities" to "I'll play xxx sport even if it is my last time this year". I know he really wants kids (maybe big time peer pressure) but acts a bit clueless (refers to friends/books, not what he wants to do)

 

I love this: "my friend xxx and his wife have four kids but manage to have single activities" It doesn't mean anything. I just find it funny because it just shows that you have no idea what it's like to be a father or a mother till it happens. My ex and I both said things nearly identical to your quote and were in explicit agreement with each other. We just had no idea what we were saying at the time.

 

"I'll play xxx sport even if it is my last time this year" This is great. It shows he understands there will be changes. Now, if we could just get some quotes along the lines of I guess we'll have to go on less vacations and put some money away for emergencies and school for the kids. But maybe he's thinking about that too, and that's why he acted on his own on the debts.

 

"I know he really wants kids (maybe big time peer pressure) but acts a bit clueless (refers to friends/books, not what he wants to do)" This one being your quote. We got some peer pressure from friends. But, frankly, when we actually started to think about having kids, we went right back to some of those same friends who had families and asked them for advice and input on making the decision to have kids. We realized that we didn't know what we were getting into. So, we turned to other people's opinions and books.

 

If he thought he had a clear picture in his mind on his own, he'd probably be wrong. So it's not a bad thing that he's listening to others and reading books and taking them into account on how he thinks about it.

 

I understand where you're coming from. You think it would be ideal if the desire to have kids was a strong urge that came from within him. My ex and I had a hard time understanding why everyone with kids said that having them was such a great experience. We had to turn to books and others to try to understand that. We thought we had kind of figured it out, between understanding some of the science behind it, and listening to what others got out of it. After the fact, I can say we had no clue.

 

In the end, everyone was right when they said things like "it's going to completely change your life in ways you don't even know, but it will be a wonderful experience". If I could go back and try to explain it to myself before hand, I'm not sure I could come up with anything convincing and would probably just end up saying something like that too.

 

So, what's he going to do?

 

I was glancing over something somewhere on here the other day, not on this thread, and I saw a comment to the effect "you can't use that to judge his fatherly instincts. His fatherly instincts will only be apparent when he becomes a father." I wasn't paying super close attention to what I was reading, but when I hit that, it stood out to me and I thought, it kind of made sense. My ex and I wouldn't have predicted that I would act the way I have. With the mom, it's probably more predictable, but it only becomes real after the fact. With my ex, I think neither of us would have predicted more than half of her reactions to becoming a mom.

 

So, is he going to want to take charge of and do 75% of the family stuff and child care as an extension of the household stuff he wants to do now? Or is he going to want to do laundry and go to the gym?

 

There may be no way to know. Even if he was saying that he knew exactly what it was going to be like, exactly why he wanted to do it, and that he knew exactly what his reaction was going to be, I'm not sure that would help.

 

At least with him, he wants to take charge of and do 75% of the household work. How common is that?

 

The real answer may be some combination of 1) that's why you should wait till you've been in a relationship for a while before having kids, and 2) to some extent neither of you can know, so you just have to trust his fatherly instincts will kick in once he's a father.

 

With such a short time frame for kids, you may have to get used to this dilemma with him or anyone else.

 

I guess the real action item out of this line of thought would be: Get a Prenuptial Agreement.

 

This would apply to him or anyone else. In his case it has the added upside of protecting you against his career going south. Even if you're just making sure that anything prior to marriage stays separate, and stuff earned during marriage is joint, and that's the default of the laws where you live, it's better to get it in writing. With your career ambition and his spending habits, just keeping everything separate even after marriage might actually eliminate some potential problems and make you feel much better about some of the stuff you have as concerns. Given he's confident that he's going to work till he's 70, maybe he'd go for it.

Edited January 23, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

But yeah, we need to work on this as a team if we stay together.

 

I think everything else pretty much boils down to this statement above.

 

Starting off with communication, I think sometimes you use the wrong words to describe other people. Different does not mean childish, irresponsible, immature or weird.

 

What his dad is doing could be for any number of reasons. It could be tradition or pride. It could even be a utilitarian cost benefit analysis, he's made and the cost of picking up the tab is nothing to him. Parents miss their kids when they move out. This could be a habit to encourage more frequent contact.

 

It's only wrong if he uses it to cause harm. Like holding it over someone and using it to make them feel guilty to control them or get something.

 

Others have commented that if your guy found out that you described him as a man-boy he'd probably be insulted. Yet a lot of people's reaction was that his values and priorities are just different than yours.

 

With him you may not be using those words but if your body language, tone of voice or attitude is that you are right and he is wrong on things where he is just different, that can cause him to act exactly the way he's acting. Retreat from communication.

 

When you start to realize something is different or there is a difference of opinion, maybe you need to stop and explicitly ask yourself if anyone is being harmed. If not, don't allow yourself to think the other person is immature, weird, childish, irresponsible, or wrong. Just different.

 

Now, it's fine to be bothered by differences. But you're not going to get anywhere by taking how bothered you are as the primary thing that needs to be addressed. You need to focus on exploring the difference. Explain why you do things the way you do. Listen to his explanation of why he's doing things the way he does.

 

Some portion of the time his actual reaction might be, wow you've got a better way of looking at that. I'm going to do things your way now. Financial stuff where someone has just never been taught would be a good example of that.

 

If they avoid dealing with financial issues partly because there were bad feelings surrounding finances growing up, and you go in with an attitude that they are wrong and immature, that's not going to help them at all. You might not use those words, but if that's your attitude, it would be in you tone of voice and body language.

 

If you are stuck with a bothersome difference that's harder to resolve, then, how strongly does each person feel, does the difference bother both of them. If it bothers both of them, what kind of compromises can be worked out. If it only bothers one of them, can the other one be more accommodative.

 

Is there any way to use the difference as a strength by creating a division of labor. He wants to spend more time outside of work, so he takes responsibility of more family stuff, which frees you up to focus on your career.

 

Long ago in this tread, many said the two of you were incompatible. Maybe that's true. In the end, all it takes is one difference, and the inability to work it out. So, even 1 difference can be too many.

 

If your attitude is that they are wrong, childish, immature, irresponsible or weird, and that they are the one who needs to change, I think 1 difference is too many.

 

The question is whether you can explore each other's differences and work them out. If you can do that, who knows, maybe you still hit an impasse. But, you will have given it a true best effort. Can you do that in 4 months, with the communication history being what it is? I don't know, but it's going to take a big change in the amount of communication and teamwork.

 

I think you're going to have to initiate that change. Waiting for him to say stuff is never going to get this worked out in 4 months. That approach makes it a waste of time.

 

Remember, don't approach it that he isn't communicating enough. The amount of communication he is doing is not causing anyone physical or emotional harm. From things you said, he is communicating meaningfully, and he is addressing issues. The amount he's communicating is not wrong. It's just insufficient to accomplish your goals in your timeframe.

 

So I would start by explaining your goals and time frame to him. The stuff about age 35, and 2.5 years, and 1 year. Then point out that if the two of you really are going to have kids, there is a lot of planning to be done in a short amount of time. Then ask him if it would be outside his comfort zone to talk about the future and start planning it together more frequently. Then maybe throw in something about this being important, and so there needs to be an atmosphere of feeling free to honestly work out your true feelings and thoughts about the future. As such, no idea, opinion or view point would be regarded as wrong or incorrect unless it was actually harmful to someone. Then just directly tell him that no mater how different his opinion is from yours, you want to hear it because you want this to be an honest best shot. Really try to create the idea that this is going to be a very safe communication environment. I think you initiating it and handling it in that general kind of manner is the best shot you've got.

 

Be prepared to hear things like I want to go on vacation more and save less for the kids school. It's hard for me to hear that as anything other than wrong. But it's technically not immoral. He wouldn't be violating anyone's rights. Explore it. He may have different views about education, responsibility, and the order of priorities. Find out why he feels that way first, then explain to him how you feel and why. If he places a higher priority on living life to the fullest, as long as he includes the kids as part of that, it's going to benefit them in the now. Meanwhile if your concern is the future outcome of the kids life, point that out and ask him if he can think of any creative ways to accomplish both. Maybe if most vacations are staycations and you explore the larger local area, the country side, parks even somewhat distant ones. Camping and hiking all the different places within 100 miles would be a great athletic opportunity for him, a vacation, and give the kids a great sense of where they grew up. Then put the money that would have been used for plane tickets and hotels in a fund for later education. If you can't find something that's a win-win-win for him, you and the kids, is there an acceptable compromise. It might require your going out and finding out how much normal parents provide toward their kids education. Something like the percentile net worth calculator. Then you might have to realize you own expectations were out of line with the norm. If your expectations are reasonable, you can still take what you've discovered bring it back to him and ask to try and form a compromise based on what's "normal".

Edited January 23, 2016 by testmeasure

[No_Go]

Oh wow, this calculator is great, made me feel so much better about myself I mean I always though I'm not doing as good as I can myself, but I'm multiple times above the average with just 8 years in the working force (4 of which spend on a phd program in Europe, so not great income by any means, and the average income in my country of origin is like $5000 annual so parental support has been out of question). Besides bragging this also makes me think my BF is not in a shockingly bad state financially, he just could have done sooooo much better with minimal effort to plan.

 

You're right that if I don't adjust my standards though, I may need to look for somebody else, and if we add that on top of being responsible planner I'd need to match on other qualities & expect some chemistry, it is almost like looking for an unicorn...... I know my approach sounds terribly calculated and "unromantic" but in a certain point I feel like romance goes much behind being a good team-player with your partner......

 

So, he spends feely on electronics and sports activities, and any thing left over, he spends on vacations. He doesn't see the need to save because he's willing to work till he's 70 and values the ability to enjoy life along the way. That's all consistent and coherent. It's not exactly how I would do things. But I don't think it's immature either.

 

Is it even uncommon at his age? I'm like you. I have a clear picture of what kinds of things people should be doing financially, so I assume more people are doing it. When I wrote the first paragraph, I had no idea, I'd be writing what follows.

 

Google a "percentile net worth calculator". Set the age range from 38 to 38. Plug in some numbers. The result is shocking. Remember, net worth includes everything. Savings, investments, retirement funds, assets, property, house, jewelry. But it also includes liabilities by subtracting them out. Mortgages, car loans, credit card debt.

 

I know the numbers are shocking. So, so I thought I was low-balling it when I plugged in $50,000 for age 38. Surely by age 38, the average person has more than 50k of value to their name. But no, that would put him in the 63rd percentile.

 

The average person his age is worth a grand total of: $24,130.00

 

Now I realize that if he has to save up for a gym membership, and has some debt, his current percentile net worth may actually be quite low. That's not the point I'm trying to make. Even if he's only contributing a "minimal" amount to a 401k or IRA, if he's been doing it consistently, over a long enough time, that could put him near the 24k average. But where he falls is not the point.

 

The real point is almost 2/3 of the people his age don't even have a net worth of 50k. I would bet that half the 1/3 that do have more than 50k, it's mostly home equity. Of the 1/6 of people that age who have actual cash, money, savings, or retirement funds, half of them probably got inheritance, an insurance settlement, or have rich parents that pay for much more than his dad does. The point being, probably only about 10% of the people his age actually act the way you think everyone his age should be acting. Of that probably only 5% are doing anything outside their 401k and IRA.

 

Of course, other than the numbers the median net worth calculators spit, out, most of what I'm saying is wild guesses based on the kinds of assets people own. But, of the 1/3 of people who do have more than 50k, it simply can't be that none of those people own a home or got inheritance. It's much more likely that the people in that 1/3 are exactly the ones that own a home or got inheritance. Once you peel all that stuff out, however much it is, the remaining people may be acting the way you think everyone does by that age.

 

You might want to actually do what I suggest and google a percentile net worth calculator and play around with it some. Whether it's this guy or someone else, what you're going to find out there financially is going to be shockingly different than what you expect to be the norm.

 

If you go back to dating, and find someone your own age, the average person age 31 only has $14,450.00. Heck, that could just be a new pickup tuck they saved up and bought with cash.

 

You may need to recalibrate your expectations from "they have their retirement all planned out and are saving money" to, "if they own a house, it might have some equity and they might own their car free and clear". (Or keep your expectations where they are and realize what you're looking for isn't the norm.)

 

I think having a lot of drive and ambition at work and a good sense of financial responsibility is a combination that is going to work out extremely well for you. Work and money are things a lot of people struggle with. If finding someone close to your level in a short time is a requirement, that could be a challenge.

 

There are probably people with much lower incomes who know what it is like to have to budget and have more of an appreciation for money. There may be more people who earn less that are trying to save but just don't show up on the percentile net worth calculator because they don't earn enough to save much. But even if they have the up-side of being more financially responsible, they lack the upside this guy has with the education and good paying job. And, on top of that, you don't know if they would continue to be as financially responsible if they had more money.

[No_Go]

Yeah, I assume family plans are indeed why he's trying to clear up debts asap. I'm just nervous that once cleared and have more spending cash, he'll repeat what he has done in the past. But again, I could be just anxious about it without a real reason.

 

At very least he's thinking on the topic how to be a good father. How is going to work when it happens to him... Indeed it is hard to say.

 

I agree about the prenup, I can imagine it is a very tacky topic to discuss, but if we end up on the marriage track, we should be able to talk about it...

 

I love this: "my friend xxx and his wife have four kids but manage to have single activities" It doesn't mean anything. I just find it funny because it just shows that you have no idea what it's like to be a father or a mother till it happens. My ex and I both said things nearly identical to your quote and were in explicit agreement with each other. We just had no idea what we were saying at the time.

 

"I'll play xxx sport even if it is my last time this year" This is great. It shows he understands there will be changes. Now, if we could just get some quotes along the lines of I guess we'll have to go on less vacations and put some money away for emergencies and school for the kids. But maybe he's thinking about that too, and that's why he acted on his own on the debts.

 

"I know he really wants kids (maybe big time peer pressure) but acts a bit clueless (refers to friends/books, not what he wants to do)" This one being your quote. We got some peer pressure from friends. But, frankly, when we actually started to think about having kids, we went right back to some of those same friends who had families and asked them for advice and input on making the decision to have kids. We realized that we didn't know what we were getting into. So, we turned to other people's opinions and books.

 

If he thought he had a clear picture in his mind on his own, he'd probably be wrong. So it's not a bad thing that he's listening to others and reading books and taking them into account on how he thinks about it.

 

I understand where you're coming from. You think it would be ideal if the desire to have kids was a strong urge that came from within him. My ex and I had a hard time understanding why everyone with kids said that having them was such a great experience. We had to turn to books and others to try to understand that. We thought we had kind of figured it out, between understanding some of the science behind it, and listening to what others got out of it. After the fact, I can say we had no clue.

 

In the end, everyone was right when they said things like "it's going to completely change your life in ways you don't even know, but it will be a wonderful experience". If I could go back and try to explain it to myself before hand, I'm not sure I could come up with anything convincing and would probably just end up saying something like that too.

 

So, what's he going to do?

 

I was glancing over something somewhere on here the other day, not on this thread, and I saw a comment to the effect "you can't use that to judge his fatherly instincts. His fatherly instincts will only be apparent when he becomes a father." I wasn't paying super close attention to what I was reading, but when I hit that, it stood out to me and I thought, it kind of made sense. My ex and I wouldn't have predicted that I would act the way I have. With the mom, it's probably more predictable, but it only becomes real after the fact. With my ex, I think neither of us would have predicted more than half of her reactions to becoming a mom.

 

So, is he going to want to take charge of and do 75% of the family stuff and child care as an extension of the household stuff he wants to do now? Or is he going to want to do laundry and go to the gym?

 

There may be no way to know. Even if he was saying that he knew exactly what it was going to be like, exactly why he wanted to do it, and that he knew exactly what his reaction was going to be, I'm not sure that would help.

 

At least with him, he wants to take charge of and do 75% of the household work. How common is that?

 

The real answer may be some combination of 1) that's why you should wait till you've been in a relationship for a while before having kids, and 2) to some extent neither of you can know, so you just have to trust his fatherly instincts will kick in once he's a father.

 

With such a short time frame for kids, you may have to get used to this dilemma with him or anyone else.

 

I guess the real action item out of this line of thought would be: Get a Prenuptial Agreement.

 

This would apply to him or anyone else. In his case it has the added upside of protecting you against his career going south. Even if you're just making sure that anything prior to marriage stays separate, and stuff earned during marriage is joint, and that's the default of the laws where you live, it's better to get it in writing. With your career ambition and his spending habits, just keeping everything separate even after marriage might actually eliminate some potential problems and make you feel much better about some of the stuff you have as concerns. Given he's confident that he's going to work till he's 70, maybe he'd go for it.

[No_Go]

Regarding communication: I agree, I tend to use strong words. Unfortunately, I went into an argument with him today, in which I used very strong words... His reaction was nearly implausible: something in lines "you've been through a lot of stress recently" and went to get me some chocolate to relax. It just left me wondering: is he good in anger management, or just was not paying attention to my words (unfortunately pretty strong). In any case, I do see I need to wind down on judging him and other people too.

 

I do agree if we can divide responsibilities in terms as I do planning, focus more on career, he focuses more on family stuff could actually work out. Recently I've noticed he wants me to express more appreciation about his own work (in terms of: sharing things that are praise-worthy), maybe it is not because he entered some "competition" with me (which will hamper the aforementioned strategy), but he is just trying to win my respect towards him professionally.

 

Regarding this paragraph: "The question is whether you can explore each other's differences and work them out. If you can do that, who knows, maybe you still hit an impasse. But, you will have given it a true best effort. Can you do that in 4 months, with the communication history being what it is? I don't know, but it's going to take a big change in the amount of communication and teamwork. " - I agree! There are two caveats though:

1) I'm not good at verbalizing my emotions and desires. I've always been using the approach - go and do things myself, and here I need to delegate responsibilities to another person, my BF, which will be a big challenge

2) It is almost a pride issue about initiating the "common future" conversation. I'm almost scared to get so exposed if he's not on the same page as me...

I just mention these two in terms that the 4 months timeframe will be very very tough unless he shows some self-initiative... or I work on my own issues mentioned above.

 

 

 

I think everything else pretty much boils down to this statement above.

 

Starting off with communication, I think sometimes you use the wrong words to describe other people. Different does not mean childish, irresponsible, immature or weird.

 

What his dad is doing could be for any number of reasons. It could be tradition or pride. It could even be a utilitarian cost benefit analysis, he's made and the cost of picking up the tab is nothing to him. Parents miss their kids when they move out. This could be a habit to encourage more frequent contact.

 

It's only wrong if he uses it to cause harm. Like holding it over someone and using it to make them feel guilty to control them or get something.

 

Others have commented that if your guy found out that you described him as a man-boy he'd probably be insulted. Yet a lot of people's reaction was that his values and priorities are just different than yours.

 

With him you may not be using those words but if your body language, tone of voice or attitude is that you are right and he is wrong on things where he is just different, that can cause him to act exactly the way he's acting. Retreat from communication.

 

When you start to realize something is different or there is a difference of opinion, maybe you need to stop and explicitly ask yourself if anyone is being harmed. If not, don't allow yourself to think the other person is immature, weird, childish, irresponsible, or wrong. Just different.

 

Now, it's fine to be bothered by differences. But you're not going to get anywhere by taking how bothered you are as the primary thing that needs to be addressed. You need to focus on exploring the difference. Explain why you do things the way you do. Listen to his explanation of why he's doing things the way he does.

 

Some portion of the time his actual reaction might be, wow you've got a better way of looking at that. I'm going to do things your way now. Financial stuff where someone has just never been taught would be a good example of that.

 

If they avoid dealing with financial issues partly because there were bad feelings surrounding finances growing up, and you go in with an attitude that they are wrong and immature, that's not going to help them at all. You might not use those words, but if that's your attitude, it would be in you tone of voice and body language.

 

If you are stuck with a bothersome difference that's harder to resolve, then, how strongly does each person feel, does the difference bother both of them. If it bothers both of them, what kind of compromises can be worked out. If it only bothers one of them, can the other one be more accommodative.

 

Is there any way to use the difference as a strength by creating a division of labor. He wants to spend more time outside of work, so he takes responsibility of more family stuff, which frees you up to focus on your career.

 

Long ago in this tread, many said the two of you were incompatible. Maybe that's true. In the end, all it takes is one difference, and the inability to work it out. So, even 1 difference can be too many.

 

If your attitude is that they are wrong, childish, immature, irresponsible or weird, and that they are the one who needs to change, I think 1 difference is too many.

 

The question is whether you can explore each other's differences and work them out. If you can do that, who knows, maybe you still hit an impasse. But, you will have given it a true best effort. Can you do that in 4 months, with the communication history being what it is? I don't know, but it's going to take a big change in the amount of communication and teamwork.

 

I think you're going to have to initiate that change. Waiting for him to say stuff is never going to get this worked out in 4 months. That approach makes it a waste of time.

 

Remember, don't approach it that he isn't communicating enough. The amount of communication he is doing is not causing anyone physical or emotional harm. From things you said, he is communicating meaningfully, and he is addressing issues. The amount he's communicating is not wrong. It's just insufficient to accomplish your goals in your timeframe.

 

So I would start by explaining your goals and time frame to him. The stuff about age 35, and 2.5 years, and 1 year. Then point out that if the two of you really are going to have kids, there is a lot of planning to be done in a short amount of time. Then ask him if it would be outside his comfort zone to talk about the future and start planning it together more frequently. Then maybe throw in something about this being important, and so there needs to be an atmosphere of feeling free to honestly work out your true feelings and thoughts about the future. As such, no idea, opinion or view point would be regarded as wrong or incorrect unless it was actually harmful to someone. Then just directly tell him that no mater how different his opinion is from yours, you want to hear it because you want this to be an honest best shot. Really try to create the idea that this is going to be a very safe communication environment. I think you initiating it and handling it in that general kind of manner is the best shot you've got.

 

Be prepared to hear things like I want to go on vacation more and save less for the kids school. It's hard for me to hear that as anything other than wrong. But it's technically not immoral. He wouldn't be violating anyone's rights. Explore it. He may have different views about education, responsibility, and the order of priorities. Find out why he feels that way first, then explain to him how you feel and why. If he places a higher priority on living life to the fullest, as long as he includes the kids as part of that, it's going to benefit them in the now. Meanwhile if your concern is the future outcome of the kids life, point that out and ask him if he can think of any creative ways to accomplish both. Maybe if most vacations are staycations and you explore the larger local area, the country side, parks even somewhat distant ones. Camping and hiking all the different places within 100 miles would be a great athletic opportunity for him, a vacation, and give the kids a great sense of where they grew up. Then put the money that would have been used for plane tickets and hotels in a fund for later education. If you can't find something that's a win-win-win for him, you and the kids, is there an acceptable compromise. It might require your going out and finding out how much normal parents provide toward their kids education. Something like the percentile net worth calculator. Then you might have to realize you own expectations were out of line with the norm. If your expectations are reasonable, you can still take what you've discovered bring it back to him and ask to try and form a compromise based on what's "normal".

[testmeasure]

I agree about the prenup, I can imagine it is a very tacky topic to discuss, but if we end up on the marriage track, we should be able to talk about it...

 

 

Depends on how the other person feels. They may like the idea and be relieved you suggested one. Or they may not like it.

 

Given your reaction to the net worth calculator, you have good grounds to at least insist on one that preserves every thing prior to marriage as being separate but treats everything after marriage as joint.

 

Even if that's what the law does in your state anyway, it makes it stronger to have it in writing. Then if you move some place different and end up getting divorced in a state where that's not the case, hopefully it can protect you.

[testmeasure]

Regarding communication: I agree, I tend to use strong words. Unfortunately, I went into an argument with him today, in which I used very strong words... His reaction was nearly implausible: something in lines "you've been through a lot of stress recently" and went to get me some chocolate to relax. It just left me wondering: is he good in anger management, or just was not paying attention to my words (unfortunately pretty strong). In any case, I do see I need to wind down on judging him and other people too.

 

 

I'm sure he heard and was listening. Good anger management would mean he could take those words in and diffuse or set his reaction aside to respond. The most likely answer is that he upset him enough that he was afraid of what he would say if he responded. So, he found a way to respond that wouldn't have a chance of showing his reaction, but still show you he was responding.

 

I don't know what you said or how bad it was. A second possibility is that he doesn't tolerate behavior like that and his rule for dealing with it is to refuse to respond to it or engage it. In that case, he heard what you said, listened to it very carefully, realized that it was disrespectful toward him, and that he had no respect for you for saying it. His response was to refuse to validate your conduct by even acknowledging it.

 

This is a tactic they teach for dealing with high conflict people. If they are communicating inappropriately and you point that out, you are taking a contrary position and entering into conflict, or encouraging and perpetuating it. If they are communicating inappropriately and you engage the content of what they are saying, that signals that it is ok to communicate that way. It treats inappropriate communication as a no-win situation. What do you do in a no-win situation? Don't participate in the situation.

 

When you think about the second kind of situation, don't allow yourself to feel that he handled or managed you or intentionally ignored you. No. He responded very appropriately to a no-win situation created by you. If you created the no-win situation, you're the one who did something inappropriate.

 

Also, it was still upsetting to him even if he chose not to respond. Giving no response was a tactical reaction to a no-win situation, not an indication of how much what you were saying upset him.

 

I still think it's much more likely he didn't want to say anything because he was upset enough, he was afraid he would say the wrong thing. Does he have any relatives with high conflict personalities or anger management issues? Even if you read about this tactic of not-responding in a book, it's hard to just do without practice. The normal response its to be defensive or argue back.

[testmeasure]

I do agree if we can divide responsibilities in terms as I do planning, focus more on career, he focuses more on family stuff could actually work out. Recently I've noticed he wants me to express more appreciation about his own work (in terms of: sharing things that are praise-worthy), maybe it is not because he entered some "competition" with me (which will hamper the aforementioned strategy), but he is just trying to win my respect towards him professionally.

 

 

Remember there was also that thing where he wanted to keep work and personal life separate. At some point you said something about him asking you not to bring your work home or discuss work related stuff or something.

 

Maybe this is just more voluntary adapting to what he thinks you want.

 

Or maybe it's the things you speculated. The two of you really just need to be able to ask each other stuff like that. There's no other way of knowing the answer.

[testmeasure]

Regarding this paragraph: "The question is whether you can explore each other's differences and work them out. If you can do that, who knows, maybe you still hit an impasse. But, you will have given it a true best effort. Can you do that in 4 months, with the communication history being what it is? I don't know, but it's going to take a big change in the amount of communication and teamwork. " - I agree! There are two caveats though:

1) I'm not good at verbalizing my emotions and desires. I've always been using the approach - go and do things myself, and here I need to delegate responsibilities to another person, my BF, which will be a big challenge

2) It is almost a pride issue about initiating the "common future" conversation. I'm almost scared to get so exposed if he's not on the same page as me...

I just mention these two in terms that the 4 months timeframe will be very very tough unless he shows some self-initiative... or I work on my own issues mentioned above.

 

1) The problem is you can't "go and do" major joint decisions. You also can't delegate them. They require joint communication and planning. It doesn't matter how good you are at "verbalizing your emotions and desires". Ok, communication for you guys might be slow and difficult. If that's all you've got, you're going to have to go with it. Otherwise you're never going to be able to make the joint decisions necessary to reach your goals on schedule.

 

2) Suck up the pride. With this guy or anyone else, you've got a time issue. You're very aware of it and explained it very well. You don't have time for pride.

 

"I'm almost scared to get so exposed if he's not on the same page as me..."

 

Let's chart this decision and see what you should really be afraid of.

 

...S D

C V f

N F f

 

Row C is Communication. Row N is Non-Communication. Column S is he's on the same page, or close enough to get there. Column D is he's on too different of a page for you guys to get to the same page.

 

Right off the bat, the only Victory (V) is if you guys Communicate and get on the Same page.

 

If you communicate and he's on a different page, then things don't work out. And you probably feel rejected or exposed.

 

If you don't communicate and he never would have been on the same page anyway, then things don't work out. And you wasted 4 months without knowing it was a waste.

 

If you don't communicate and he was close enough that he could have gotten on the same page with communication, yet things don't work out even though they could have. And, you end up cutting lose a guy you could have shared a future with. Fail with an upper case F.

 

The bottom has the peculiar feature that if you guys don't communicate and the 4 months runs out and you cut him loose, then you really don't end up knowing which column he was in. So, the only way to avoid Failure F is to communicate.

[testmeasure]

Oh wow, this calculator is great, made me feel so much better about myself I mean I always though I'm not doing as good as I can myself, but I'm multiple times above the average with just 8 years in the working force (4 of which spend on a phd program in Europe, so not great income by any means, and the average income in my country of origin is like $5000 annual so parental support has been out of question). Besides bragging this also makes me think my BF is not in a shockingly bad state financially, he just could have done sooooo much better with minimal effort to plan.

 

You're right that if I don't adjust my standards though, I may need to look for somebody else, and if we add that on top of being responsible planner I'd need to match on other qualities & expect some chemistry, it is almost like looking for an unicorn...... I know my approach sounds terribly calculated and "unromantic" but in a certain point I feel like romance goes much behind being a good team-player with your partner......

 

I'm glad this helped.

 

When we started, there was the sense that there were so many issues that you guys needed to work out. A lot of them were differences between your approach to life. If they bothered you, as much as they seemed to, you guys were going to have to discuss them and work it out, otherwise every one was right that you two were incompatible.

 

If you can accept his whole approach to life and the differences between the two of you that come with it, then those are no longer things that need to be talked about and worked out. So, it takes some pressure and urgency off the communication issue.

 

Both financial planning and family planning should come up anyway once you guys are talking about getting married.

[No_Go]

I checked and in MA the property acquired before marriage goes to the spouse that acquired it, but you're right, the bare minimum of protection is to have this in writing.

 

Depends on how the other person feels. They may like the idea and be relieved you suggested one. Or they may not like it.

 

Given your reaction to the net worth calculator, you have good grounds to at least insist on one that preserves every thing prior to marriage as being separate but treats everything after marriage as joint.

 

Even if that's what the law does in your state anyway, it makes it stronger to have it in writing. Then if you move some place different and end up getting divorced in a state where that's not the case, hopefully it can protect you.