Feminism in dating (Updated)

[edgygirl]

Of course I do have the right. It's my preference. I am zero ashamed actually. And that's the kind of men I date usually. They don't have a problem with it, why do you?

 

Not sure where ":sick:" comes from. Some men want a beautiful submissive girl, some women like the feeling of being protected. Who are you (or me) to judge anyone?

 

 

If you want the same pay as men you have no right whatsoever to demand they pay for your dates. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

You're in the top 10% earning bracket in a country like America? You should be ashamed with that attitude.

 

[edgygirl]

I don't need them to provide as I said. I need to feel protected and cared for. Cheap men or men who struggle can't give me the feeling of security I crave.

 

I feel that whomever wants to be polyamorous (as long as I know polygamy is banned in most countries so that's a moot point), should be. Both men and women - I don't feel that's exclusive of men. Actually I am into BDSM and see no problem with being attracted to several people and acting on it if your partner is okay with the fact. Again, it's about preferences. Doesn't mean I have to be interested in someone who is poly but I won't negate their right to be... why would I? I am sure they can find the right people. I am okay with everyone having what they want

 

Considering you are so rigid with regard to your biological / evolutionary imperative to find a man who provides for you, how do you feel about a man's biological imperative to be polygamous?

 

I'm not picking on you particularly as there are lots of women who feel the same way you do about a provider male.

[edgygirl]

Free ride... lol. It's NOT about that. I'm size XS, and I hardly eat. I don't drink much either. I am basically the cheapest date ever.

 

I don't care about the payment of the bill in itself and am not looking to freeload. It's about the gesture. I need to feel protected and cared for by the man I am dating. I need to feel I am with a generous man who is not counting pennies. Sorry!

 

Not all women believe they are entitled to have a guy pay for them... just as there are men who don't believe they are entitled to get paid more for the same job. To me it is basic fairness. To me, believing otherwise is the definition of a hypocrite.

 

 

Maybe we don't all go by that label... but please, please stop telling men to stop asking women out just because you (who happen to be a woman but don't speak for all women) like a free ride when its convenient for you... and don't believe in equality. I mean, not really.

[Shining One]

I don't care about the payment of the bill in itself and am not looking to freeload. It's about the gesture. I need to feel protected and cared for by the man I am dating. I need to feel I am with a generous man who is not counting pennies. Sorry!

I have some questions about this, especially the first one.

• How does someone spending money on you generate a sense of protection? Various people have spent money on me over the years and I never felt "protected" as a result.
  
• Will any sign of generosity be sufficient, or does the generosity have to be directed at you? Examples: A man who gives money to charity or spends lavishly on family.
  
• What gestures do you give to men on early dates to show you care for him?
  

[RedRobin]

I have some questions about this, especially the first one.

• How does someone spending money on you generate a sense of protection? Various people have spent money on me over the years and I never felt "protected" as a result.
  
• Will any sign of generosity be sufficient, or does the generosity have to be directed at you? Examples: A man who gives money to charity or spends lavishly on family.
  
• What gestures do you give to men on early dates to show you care for him?
  

 

 

Great questions! I have never felt a guy paying for me generated a sense of protection at all. Unless I know the guy, it is little more than the gesture the waiter makes when he offers to put ground pepper on your all-you-can-eat salad at Olive Garden.

 

 

Leaves the impression of 'service' on an otherwise strictly cafeteria experience. Nothing special.

 

 

You know what generates a feeling of protection and care?? A guy who does what he says he will do. A guy who has a history, and demonstrates his care for current people in his life. I have eyes. I can witness how he treats the people who he claims are special. Even if he pays for THEM... if that is all he does for them, then I'm not impressed. Anyone can write a check... and anyone does.

[Grumpybutfun]

If we men decide women should pay for dates, then we agree with cleaning house, cooking, grocery shopping, equal childcare, etc. and I am not seeing that in America. Perhaps it is changing in other countries, but I'm a man and men here don't think anything outside of their job and an occasional mow or pumping gas is their work. Women need to stop letting men make them feel bad for wanting to be treated well during dating because when they marry, they may or may not get any help with the home regardless of equal hour employment. Yes, I know, not all men, but most I know and I'm a man.

IMHO, based on 20 years in military,

G

 

P.S. Feminism is about choices so if a woman wants to pay and ask and pursue..she should have that choice.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Grumpybutfun

[readynow]

 

On the flip side, men want women to step up and take financial responsibility for themselves and the decisions they make. They also want them to participate. So you gave birth. That doesn't give you a free pass for the rest of your life. Men will be happy to support you, but you have to have something to offer him to make it worthwhile. "I gave birth, so you owe me for the rest of your life" is not an attractive option.

 

I take it that the bolded is speaking about your own personal experience. Most other women that fall into that category are those who have no resources of their own and rely on the man for survival. So I don't know wher you get these thing of women wanting a free pass to anywhere.

 

In my own first LTR, I made 2ce more than he did so it wasn't even discussed when I moved in with him, I very often paid the rent, paid bills, bought furniture etc I still happily did the housework while he did the lawn and oil work. However, from the very first date, he paid for all the dates, it was never even a topic of discussion and this was before we were in a serious relationship. He continued to pay for dates till it ended. So, who contributed more to the relationship? Me of course, but I wasn't counting.

 

The fact that I want my man to pay on dates has nothing to do with feminism. The roles we chose to play in our relationships have nothing to do with feminism. Feminism and equality gives the woman the right to choose how she wants to live her own life just like a man does. Feminism allowed me to contribute meaningfully to my relationship and to society.

 

Please check what feminism actually is instead of what you think it probably is. Paying in dates and doing dishes have nothing to do with feminism.

[readynow]

And that gets back to the topic. I do NOT think that personal, emotional and sexual connections are a part of what we are talking about when we talk about "equal rights," "feminism," etc.

A serious feminist can be a sub in a sexual relationship. She can do all the housework while her guy changes the oil. A man can practice chivalrous behavior towards women and not be expecting her to mirror that by remaining in a traditionally feminine gender role. A woman can enjoy a romantic gesture by a man who is showing interest in her without feeling "entitled" to that. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

I don't know why it's so hard to understand either. Equality is not sameness. Within a personal relationship, people may have roles that work for them. Reciprocity doesn't have to be exact, that you paid on the date doesn't mean I must pay on the date. Using a silly example, that I show up in full lingerie while husband is watching tv, does that mean he has to show up in lingerie too? That he gives me a piggyback up a hill, I must grow muscles to do the same?

[readynow]

The highest rate of workforce mortality rates for; raw resources, innovation, construction, etc, that we all take for granted. Front line defense in wars over territory and shelter and resources. Accepting the "women and children first" mentality when disaster strikes.

Regardless of what people think, when push comes to shove it is the man, or those accepting the 'male' gender roles, who are looked upon to protect and provide.

 

I'm not negating the value of men at all. The point of my post was that men increasingly want to do less and less in their personal lives all in the name of feminism while women are developing themselves to be relevant in more and more aspects. Speaking on your points, the reason men are still the vast majority of holders of these dangerous roles is because women are still not 'allowed' to do them. Many women in these roles had to fight tooth and nail to be considered for such roles and many are still fighting, especially when they find they are unable to climb higher because someone thinks it's 'mens work'.

[readynow]

Free ride... lol. It's NOT about that. I'm size XS, and I hardly eat. I don't drink much either. I am basically the cheapest date ever.

 

I don't care about the payment of the bill in itself and am not looking to freeload. It's about the gesture

 

I'm with Edgygirl on this one and it is a personal preference.

 

I have no problem splitting the bill or paying outright for a man I have no romantic interest in. In a romantic setting, I would need a man to pay, open doors, kiss my hand and the likes I want to be with a man that ENJOYS the mating dance.

 

The thing is that all the men I've ever dated successfully have been like this. Coming to LS showed me that men and even women that think different actually exist. So, the Sambolinis and ShiningOnes of this world can and should happily only date women who must whip out their wallets on dates. Nothing wrong with that.

 

It's a win-win in my opinion!

 

Nothing to do with feminism though. Different things.

[Els]

Of course I do have the right. It's my preference. I am zero ashamed actually. And that's the kind of men I date usually. They don't have a problem with it, why do you?

 

Not sure where ":sick:" comes from. Some men want a beautiful submissive girl, some women like the feeling of being protected. Who are you (or me) to judge anyone?

 

 

Right. I find all the assertions of "women DEMANDING it" hilarious - it reminds me of the thread where that woman was acting all helpless about how her in-laws DEMAND to keep her child. You know, someone can DEMAND something all they like - if you really don't want to give it to them, it's your legal right to not do it! Pay your share and walk out! What's she gonna do, club you over the head and grab your wallet? Obviously security will be involved if it ever gets to that point.

 

Saying women who prefer it are 'demanding' it or 'forcing' men to do it is as ridiculous as saying that men who only date women who put out by (insert date) are 'forcing' women to do it. Unless there is literal coercion or force or abuse of alcohol/drugs involved... no, they aren't. You can say no and you can both move on and see other people.

[Woggle]

If we men decide women should pay for dates, then we agree with cleaning house, cooking, grocery shopping, equal childcare, etc. and I am not seeing that in America. Perhaps it is changing in other countries, but I'm a man and men here don't think anything outside of their job and an occasional mow or pumping gas is their work. Women need to stop letting men make them feel bad for wanting to be treated well during dating because when they marry, they may or may not get any help with the home regardless of equal hour employment. Yes, I know, not all men, but most I know and I'm a man.

IMHO, based on 20 years in military,

G

 

P.S. Feminism is about choices so if a woman wants to pay and ask and pursue..she should have that choice.

 

We don't have any children but I have always done this. Part of being adult is taking care of yourself in your personal life. Even when I was single my place was spotless and I often cooked for myself.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Saying women who prefer it are 'demanding' it or 'forcing' men to do it is as ridiculous as saying that men who only date women who put out by (insert date) are 'forcing' women to do it.

The "putting out" is an intrinsic part of all this ... I'm sorry but these guys believe that since they paid for dates ("disproportional investment in early dating :p") that they are BUYING or EARNING something from the women. Maybe she's supposed to put out; I've read that a lot around her to my shock. More likely she is supposed to basically behave the way that guy expects women to behave throughout their relationship. In exchange for his disproportional early investment.

 

Feminism does not come into play EXCEPT insofar as it has shaken up traditional gender roles and ways people can interact so much that it would not be outrageous AT ALL if these guys took a stand and never paid for a date again. There are women right here on this thread who claim they would NEVER allow a guy to pay for a date. That would be a match.

 

Regarding the guy here who exclusively experiences women who expect a FREE RIDE for their lifetime - I suggest looking within, because you really have to be searching to find only women like that. You are picking them for a reason.

[thefooloftheyear]

I have no issue with feminism or women who consider themselves feminists...I have them in my family and business network and regard all of them highly...

 

I guess my only beef with some is that they seem to only cherry pick issues that suit their interests...

 

I mean, if it was OK for how many years for the guy to be the heavy, then they shouldn't look down on a guy for taking a more passive role and letting the woman take the rein..

 

You also will never see a woman give up her rights as a married woman, even though some of those are outdated and heavily favor the woman..If they are true to the cause then they should be fighting for equality in these other areas as well...Because it benefits them, they conveniently ignore it or even fight to maintain the lopsided status quo..

 

 

in other words....You can't want a "man's man" and then keep his balls in a jar on your dresser...Doesn't work that way...

 

TFY

[Woggle]

I have no issue with feminism or women who consider themselves feminists...I have them in my family and business network and regard all of them highly...

 

I guess my only beef with some is that they seem to only cherry pick issues that suit their interests...

 

I mean, if it was OK for how many years for the guy to be the heavy, then they shouldn't look down on a guy for taking a more passive role and letting the woman take the rein..

 

You also will never see a woman give up her rights as a married woman, even though some of those are outdated and heavily favor the woman..If they are true to the cause then they should be fighting for equality in these other areas as well...Because it benefits them, they conveniently ignore it or even fight to maintain the lopsided status quo..

 

 

in other words....You can't want a "man's man" and then keep his balls in a jar on your dresser...Doesn't work that way...

 

TFY

 

And once he finally hands over his balls for her jar she loses respect and attraction for him.

[Rejected Rosebud]

 

You also will never see a woman give up her rights as a married woman, even though some of those are outdated and heavily favor the woman

 

TFY

Why would any woman give up her rights because she got married?? What outdated and unfair "rights" are you talking about anyway?

[Woggle]

I wouldn't say rights but I have seen a few cases in the news where famous women were forced to pay their exes alimony. There was even a case where an actress cheated on her ex with a costar and is now having his baby and many comments are from outraged women who think this is such a miscarriage of justice but where were they when men were getting taken to the cleaners in family court. I am against alimony and two wrongs never make a right but be consistent about it. When women start getting to the cleaners then we will see a lot of 180s on alimony.

[thefooloftheyear]

I wouldn't say rights but I have seen a few cases in the news where famous women were forced to pay their exes alimony. There was even a case where an actress cheated on her ex with a costar and is now having his baby and many comments are from outraged women who think this is such a miscarriage of justice but where were they when men were getting taken to the cleaners in family court. I am against alimony and two wrongs never make a right but be consistent about it. When women start getting to the cleaners then we will see a lot of 180s on alimony.

 

There is a guy I know thats still making alimony payments....He got divorced in the early 80's...

 

TFY

[joystickd]

I have no issue with feminism or women who consider themselves feminists...I have them in my family and business network and regard all of them highly...

 

I guess my only beef with some is that they seem to only cherry pick issues that suit their interests...

 

I mean, if it was OK for how many years for the guy to be the heavy, then they shouldn't look down on a guy for taking a more passive role and letting the woman take the rein..

 

You also will never see a woman give up her rights as a married woman, even though some of those are outdated and heavily favor the woman..If they are true to the cause then they should be fighting for equality in these other areas as well...Because it benefits them, they conveniently ignore it or even fight to maintain the lopsided status quo..

 

 

in other words....You can't want a "man's man" and then keep his balls in a jar on your dresser...Doesn't work that way...

 

TFY

Well said. The problem is equality means taking the good and the bad to be on the same level with everyone else. If you aren't willing to do that then you really don't want to be equal

[Shining One]

If we men decide women should pay for dates, then we agree with cleaning house, cooking, grocery shopping, equal childcare, etc.

I completely agree. I clean my own house, do my own cooking, buy my own groceries, and am not having children. Now, if a woman in a relationship with me wants to negotiate a mutually beneficial allocation of responsibilities, I'm very much open to that.

Reciprocity doesn't have to be exact, that you paid on the date doesn't mean I must pay on the date.

Believe it or not, I agree with this. I only emphasize that reciprocity should happen. If I take a woman out on a date and she cooks me dinner on the next date, that's reciprocation. If I take a woman out on four dates and she ends it, there is no reciprocation.

The "putting out" is an intrinsic part of all this ... I'm sorry but these guys believe that since they paid for dates ("disproportional investment in early dating :p") that they are BUYING or EARNING something from the women.

If I buy a woman dinner, then yes, she does owe me something: Dinner. The goal is mutual investment.

[mike_89]

I guess my only beef with some is that they seem to only cherry pick issues that suit their interests...

 

[...]

 

You also will never see a woman give up her rights as a married woman, even though some of those are outdated and heavily favor the woman..If they are true to the cause then they should be fighting for equality in these other areas as well...Because it benefits them, they conveniently ignore it or even fight to maintain the lopsided status quo..

 

TFY

This precisely describes my problem with calling feminism a gender equality movement. Feminism is a women's rights movement as feminism does nothing for men's rights. You don't hear feminists complaining that women don't have to sign up for the draft.

I think it's great to have gender based differences in dating though. Dating is all about the differences between men and women and I feel that having women act like men while dating only makes them less attractive (unless you're attracted to androgyny of course), and it is probably the same for men acting like women.

[mrldii]

Men do not benefit from the women in their lives (mothers/wives) making the same as a man in the same job?

 

Men do not benefit from women who take The Pill as to not have unwanted pregnancies?

 

This feminist does believe that if men need to register when they turn 18, women should, too. Oh, and I've said so, publicly...and even on this very forum.

 

 

 

Guess some people only pay attention to the things those "feminists" say and do which further supports their own foregone conclusions and which best fits their agenda.

[RedRobin]

Feminism in dating isn't much different. In relationships, feminism means men are still expected to pay the tab, open doors, basically continue to fulfill the traditional male role. Women, however are no longer subject to living up to the traditional female roles by cooking and taking care of her man. Just the way things are at the moment.

 

 

This has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with a certain group of people whom I choose to call hypocrites. There are female hypocrites and male hypcrites.

 

 

You recall that I use the same term for men who make selective judgments that benefit them...

 

 

Those people who seem to have lop-sided, one-sided requirements, though, prefer to call it 'preference'. Ok. whatever....

[PrettyEmily77]

If I take a woman out on four dates and she ends it, there is no reciprocation.If I buy a woman dinner, then yes, she does owe me something: Dinner. The goal is mutual investment.

 

Yeah, except for one major caveat: were you born 60 years, that option wouldn't even be offered to you because the majority of women wouldn't even be in a position where they could afford to reciprocate.

 

That's the irony - the men who expect reciprocation from day 1 in the 'early stages' of dating should be thankful to feminism for allowing them that choice...

[Robert Z]

Feminism in dating isn't much different. In relationships, feminism means men are still expected to pay the tab, open doors, basically continue to fulfill the traditional male role. Women, however are no longer subject to living up to the traditional female roles by cooking and taking care of her man. Just the way things are at the moment.

 

 

Just the way things are because men have been taught by their mothers to tolerate it... though dating practices are just the tiniest tip the iceberg. I was 50 before I finally saw through the veil of bs. For me, feminism has meant abusive women who also play perpetual victims.