Feminism in dating (Updated)

[sambolini]

You're really reaching here. So many words, so few actual points. My question to you is, do you think it's right for him to expect her to contribute 50% of the finances while doing 100% of the childcare? Because she also literally cannot keep her job while doing that. If someone's job prevents them from being able to contribute to childcare/housework and all of that falls to their partner, then it is generally reasonable for them to pull more financial weight regardless of gender, especially if their partner is sacrificing their career in order to take on that burden. Again, I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp.

 

Daycare only works up til 5pm here, which is not the case with some jobs.

 

More extrapolation. FTR, the person who informed me about it was my SO, who (yes, is a man! and) was more incensed about it than I was. He thought the man was being incredibly irresponsible, an inconsiderate partner and a terrible father.

 

The men vs women thing is just in your head, you know. The rest of us are a little more reasonable and don't just defend anything someone of our gender does while screaming, "FEMINIST RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! DIE MOTHER****ER!!!" Sometimes women do bad things in relationships. Sometimes men do. This case was the latter. I've certainly seen the former as well, and unlike you I'm fully able to acknowledge when it happens.

 

No, I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect her to contribute 50% of the income while doing 100% of the childcare.

 

However, many couples have children, both have jobs, and make it work. I know plenty.

 

The issue is, did she unilaterally decide to not work without discussing it with her husband?

 

What I find so hard to grasp is why you haven't answered that question yet.

 

I'm am operating under the assumption that she did. You are operating under the assumption that she did not.

 

But again, neither of us know for sure (at least if you do, then you haven't specified).

 

And I've never encountered a feminist who ever said women were to blame for an issue over men. Literally never. If you know of one, I'd love to hear it.

[Els]

No, I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect her to contribute 50% of the income while doing 100% of the childcare.

 

However, many couples have children, both have jobs, and make it work. I know plenty.

 

Yes, but in those cases both people are contributing to the childcare. I have not seen any couples where both have full-time jobs and only one of them is doing all the childcare - those couples tend to not last.

 

Also, like I said, jobs are different. Both of them are in jobs that involve long hours and are not 9-5.

 

The issue is, did she unilaterally decide to not work without discussing it with her husband?

 

What I find so hard to grasp is why you haven't answered that question yet.

 

I'm am operating under the assumption that she did. You are operating under the assumption that she did not.

 

But again, neither of us know for sure (at least if you do, then you haven't specified).

My SO does not know. In both of our opinions, it doesn't matter. A father can either be the egalitarian father and do 50% of everything, which might involve some career sacrifice... or he can be the traditional father and do little childcare but support the family financially. Or anything in between. In both of our opinions, this guy is not being a father at all because he's doing nothing.

 

And I've never encountered a feminist who ever said women were to blame for an issue over men. Literally never. If you know of one, I'd love to hear it.

You have met some really odd feminists.

[Rejected Rosebud]

No. Because he is a parent of that child.

 

No parent should ever be taken away from their child, except in cases of abuse.

It doesn't and shouldn't work that way, because that's not in the best interest of the children. The most stable home life is what is the most important consideration, not what either of the parents think that they are ENTITLED to.

[Rejected Rosebud]

That's quite the assumption. I'm simply trying to understand why some women who claim to want equality do not apply that desire for equality to early dating.I take women out on my dime. The good ones reciprocate in turn. The ones that do not are replaced.

Quite an assumption? What am I supposed to think when you write "do the math"?

 

Anyway, since you are having no trouble replacing women who don't pay for dates with you, what's your gripe? It seems like things are working out for you just fine.

[lollipopspot]

You have met some really odd feminists.

 

"Feminist" just means "a woman he doesn't like." It has nothing to do with feminism. It's a label some guys throw on women who they think are too uppity or naggy or mean or dislike men or whatever. It's not a carefully or precisely used term about a political movement or what it actually stands for when referred to on Loveshack.

[Shining One]

Quite an assumption? What am I supposed to think when you write "do the math"?

You indicated that men's costs in early dating are a "drop in the bucket". I asked if you had actually calculated that. It was a question to determine how you had come to the conclusion that it was a "drop in the bucket".

Anyway, since you are having no trouble replacing women who don't pay for dates with you, what's your gripe? It seems like things are working out for you just fine.

Who said I was griping? I was asking a question to help me understand the thought process that goes through some women's minds on this topic. The women in my personal life who believe in equality don't practice selective equality, so I can't ask them.

[Rejected Rosebud]

You indicated that men's costs in early dating are a "drop in the bucket". I asked if you had actually calculated that. It was a question to determine how you had come to the conclusion that it was a "drop in the bucket".Who said I was griping? I was asking a question to help me understand the thought process that goes through some women's minds on this topic. The women in my personal life who believe in equality don't practice selective equality, so I can't ask them.

 

Look, sorry if your dating costs are high but feminism has nothing to do with it. Just don't take women out on dates.

 

My guy taking me out on a fantastic date does not represent "selective equality."

 

I suppose that if I was a good feminist in your book, I would never allow such a thing. Oh well!! :bunny:

[Shining One]

Look, sorry if your dating costs are high but feminism has nothing to do with it. Just don't take women out on dates.

Please quote the text in which I'm blaming feminism for high dating costs.

My guy taking me out on a fantastic date does not represent "selective equality."

 

I suppose that if I was a good feminist in your book, I would never allow such a thing. Oh well!! :bunny:

A good feminist (in my book) reciprocates in some form or another.

[Els]

So since women are the gatekeepers, they're choosing to breed with inferior men.

 

I see that as a female issue. Not my problem if they have to suffer negative consequences for their bad decisions.

 

You can't seriously be a believer in genuine equality if you see deadbeat dads as a 'female issue'. It's an issue that affects the child most of all, and all of society consequently.

 

You know what, I think the reason some of you guys keep butting heads with these "feminists" (in inverted commas) is because you're the exact same thing as they are, just on the other side of the coin. Of course you keep meeting women like that, because like attracts like.

 

Fortunately, most people don't have such issues with the opposite gender, so we're happy to leave them and you to it. Have a great time.

[RedRobin]

Look, sorry if your dating costs are high but feminism has nothing to do with it. Just don't take women out on dates.

 

My guy taking me out on a fantastic date does not represent "selective equality."

 

I suppose that if I was a good feminist in your book, I would never allow such a thing. Oh well!! :bunny:

 

 

Not all women believe they are entitled to have a guy pay for them... just as there are men who don't believe they are entitled to get paid more for the same job. To me it is basic fairness. To me, believing otherwise is the definition of a hypocrite.

 

 

Maybe we don't all go by that label... but please, please stop telling men to stop asking women out just because you (who happen to be a woman but don't speak for all women) like a free ride when its convenient for you... and don't believe in equality. I mean, not really.

[RedRobin]

Because you were right in that context. It's much easier for a woman to become a single parent than a man.

 

However, that just further proves the misandry inherent to our culture.

 

But since you're so smart, I'm sure you already knew that.

 

 

How is it easier for a woman to become a single parent than a man exactly? If she's having sex with a man, then he's a single parent too, am I right?

 

 

If she goes to a sperm donor, that costs money. Ok.

 

 

A man can get a surrogate to have his baby. Same thing.

 

 

The main source of misandry, really, is from other men. You guys shoot yourself in the foot (and other parts) way, waaaaay more often than women do. I'd suggest you direct your focus on other men. Most women are just doing their best to avoid the fallout of other men's bad decisions... Case in point... all of the mass shootings in the US the past month or two... and really, most gun violence. For a start.

 

 

As for the dating part. No need to get pissed. Just stop dating women who won't pay their share or reciprocate. Easy.

[Heatherknows]

You can't seriously be a believer in genuine equality if you see deadbeat dads as a 'female issue'. It's an issue that affects the child most of all, and all of society consequently.

 

You know what, I think the reason some of you guys keep butting heads with these "feminists" (in inverted commas) is because you're the exact same thing as they are, just on the other side of the coin. Of course you keep meeting women like that, because like attracts like.

 

Fortunately, most people don't have such issues with the opposite gender, so we're happy to leave them and you to it. Have a great time.

 

Great post. For the record I think the OP should stay far away from women.

[PrettyEmily77]

Your uterus does you no good if you are incapable of providing the resources to continue the existence of said child post birth.

 

The reality is that no one gender is any better than the other. I think pregnancy is a wonderful thing (and truthfully, quite sexy!). But she depends on the man to provide the resources for her and the child while she recovers from childbirth, and to ensure the child doesn't starve to death.

 

I see that as symbiotic.

 

Feminism has diminished men's contributions. That's where I take issue.

 

Feminism has increased men's contributions - at the very least, to their kids' lives. Where I live, there are plenty of SAHDs (by choice) with higher earning female partners: if it weren't for feminism, they wouldn't be able to do that. That, to me, is equality.

 

 

Feminism has also contributed positively to single fathers' rights (my BF is the primary carer of his kids, again by choice), and is in fact single / divorced fathers' biggest ally.

 

 

Feminism has also allowed women like me (career-focused, late 30s, child-free, never married) to pay for dates with men (can't go Dutch, find it personally tacky but have no issue whatsoever paying the whole bill because, thanks to 'feminism', I can afford it).

 

 

The only men I see having an issue with 'feminism' are those who want and equal partner in all ways but still want the ego boost of being considered an 'Alpha Male', or whatever it's called. In my experience, those Alpha Males other men keep referring to are the true provider / protector types (more like a traditional set-up kind of relationship), whom most 'feminists' (read independent women) try to steer clear of.

 

 

I know this contradiction in my own relationship as my BF would more naturally tend to be a provider type of guy but as I, and many of my female counterparts, don't actually need a guy to provide or protect us, this leaves them in a bit of a quandary.

 

 

It's a work in progress for us - my BF still refuses point blank for me to pay when we go out (sthg obviously most guys on here would struggle to understand, apparently), which I have learned to accept as not him wanting to control me (plus I didn't want him to think I was taking advantage).

Edited December 10, 2015 by PrettyEmily77

[Rejected Rosebud]

Not all women believe they are entitled to have a guy pay for them... just as there are men who don't believe they are entitled to get paid more for the same job. To me it is basic fairness. To me, believing otherwise is the definition of a hypocrite.

 

 

Maybe we don't all go by that label... but please, please stop telling men to stop asking women out just because you (who happen to be a woman but don't speak for all women) like a free ride when its convenient for you... and don't believe in equality. I mean, not really.

 

Um ... where did you get the idea that I feel "entitled" to be paid for?? Or that women in general do? That is ridiculous. I don't "like a free ride" and have never experienced anything close to one in my entire life.

 

I am saying that accepting a dinner date with my fiancee, his treat, does not preclude me from being a feminist.

 

And, no thank you, I won't concede to your request that men stop asking women out. If men are so horrified by asking a woman out and paying for the date, then it's 100% ON HIM to not get in that situation.

 

IMO Feminism is not only about equal rights, it is about CHOICES. Traditional gender roles don't need to be destroyed; people who wish to live by them can do so.

 

Also for the record in my personal relationship my guy doesn't pay for anything because he's a guy and I'm a woman. We do stuff for EACH OTHER because that is one way we show love. He makes more money than I do and we don't split everything exactly 50/50. When my income is better I will pay for more. If it was now, I would be now. We don't really have that much of an obsession about all of this as you seem to have. if somebody wants to buy dinner, that's what happens.

[Rejected Rosebud]

 

The only men I see having an issue with 'feminism' are those who want and equal partner in all ways but still want the ego boost of being considered an 'Alpha Male', or whatever it's called. In my experience, those Alpha Males other men keep referring to are the true provider / protector types (more like a traditional set-up kind of relationship), whom most 'feminists' (read independent women) try to steer clear of.

 

I don't agree with the bolded. I think that these guys (who are only in my life here on the Internet thank goodness!!) just want to squish women in to a controllable role. Like we used to be for the last few millennia. It's much easier when you can have clear expectations based on gender and especially for the one that has traditionally had ALL the power (except that of squeezing out babies).

 

I think that there's a great sense of disenfranchisement here.

[Shining One]

I am saying that accepting a dinner date with my fiancee, his treat, does not preclude me from being a feminist.

You clearly missed the part where I was specifically asking about early dating. A committed relationship is completely different from an early date with a near stranger.

If men are so horrified by asking a woman out and paying for the date, then it's 100% ON HIM to not get in that situation.

Hyperbole much? Last time I checked, I wasn't horrified. I'm frequently disappointed when a woman displays an incompatible mindset when it comes to fairness, but such is life.

IMO Feminism is not only about equal rights, it is about CHOICES. Traditional gender roles don't need to be destroyed; people who wish to live by them can do so.

Exactly. I exercise my choice to date women who want to treat men fairly during early dates.

Also for the record in my personal relationship my guy doesn't pay for anything because he's a guy and I'm a woman. We do stuff for EACH OTHER because that is one way we show love. He makes more money than I do and we don't split everything exactly 50/50. When my income is better I will pay for more. If it was now, I would be now.

This is how I treat my relationships. The one with more disposable income (almost always me) covers more of the cost. The woman has to demonstrate a sense of equality/fairness to make it that far though.

[Grumpybutfun]

Um ... where did you get the idea that I feel "entitled" to be paid for?? Or that women in general do? That is ridiculous. I don't "like a free ride" and have never experienced anything close to one in my entire life.

 

I am saying that accepting a dinner date with my fiancee, his treat, does not preclude me from being a feminist.

 

And, no thank you, I won't concede to your request that men stop asking women out. If men are so horrified by asking a woman out and paying for the date, then it's 100% ON HIM to not get in that situation.

 

IMO Feminism is not only about equal rights, it is about CHOICES. Traditional gender roles don't need to be destroyed; people who wish to live by them can do so.

 

Also for the record in my personal relationship my guy doesn't pay for anything because he's a guy and I'm a woman. We do stuff for EACH OTHER because that is one way we show love. He makes more money than I do and we don't split everything exactly 50/50. When my income is better I will pay for more. If it was now, I would be now. We don't really have that much of an obsession about all of this as you seem to have. if somebody wants to buy dinner, that's what happens.

 

As a traditional male, married to a feminist, I agree it is about choices. Men who feel insecure about feminism usually can't handle that women are people, human beings who get to have choices and aren't locked into gender roles and lack opportunity or choices. I have noticed insecurity in losing their status as the superior, male centric view. I don't think of progress that way....I would rather have an equal who is with me out of choice and not need.

My wife is traditional by choice and very feminine and I have learned that feminism is a tool to help women and men have the choices that were lacking in the past. I like having an equal in my relationship who also likes me the way I am..... traditional but openminded to progress in gender relations.

Best,

G

[PrettyEmily77]

I don't agree with the bolded. I think that these guys (who are only in my life here on the Internet thank goodness!!) just want to squish women in to a controllable role. Like we used to be for the last few millennia. It's much easier when you can have clear expectations based on gender and especially for the one that has traditionally had ALL the power (except that of squeezing out babies).

 

I think that there's a great sense of disenfranchisement here.

 

 

You're probably right, although I kind of understand some guys' turmoil on occasion, to be honest - there are women who still want / expect to be wined and dined on the first few dates because somehow they think they are entitled to it by virtue of being a woman.

 

 

The fact of the matter is simply that in today's terms, not everyone (man or woman) can afford to be Alpha anything - that's reserved to high earner types. Their is an identity struggle for guys now I think because in yesteryears, most guys were de facto providers / protectors and earned their manhood points (or something) amongst each other in that way. Now they have to earn good money to be able to act as provider/protector because things have changed and because we (women) have (mostly) equal rights.

 

 

I really think this whole issue is with how man see themselves / each other as opposed to how they see us; it's a transition stage that must sting a little for those with pride but no financial means to follow through, I guess.

 

 

I can see it with my BF, who is a natural provider and struggles a little with the idea that I don't actually need him. I let him pay when we go out to kind of preserve his ego a little bit but I compensate in other ways to make it fair because I find it a little difficult to adjust at times but I'm not highly-strung enough to leave him on this principle (he really is awesome in every other way.

[Rejected Rosebud]

You clearly missed the part where I was specifically asking about early dating.

 

No, I didn't miss that part. I think I have said at least 3 times on this thread:

 

IF A MAN IS UPSET ABOUT PAYING FOR DATES HE SHOULD NEVER DO IT.

 

I mean, STOP asking women out and paying for their dates! It's not up to women to refuse you so you can then whine about the inequity! Just STOP doing it! It's a social norm YOU are participating in YOURSELF. That's on you.

 

Since it's important to you, you need to be true to YOURSELF. A woman who expects, or even who will accept you paying for her date in "early dating" will not be compatible with you. So look for those who won't expect, or accept that.

[Rejected Rosebud]

You're probably right, although I kind of understand some guys' turmoil on occasion, to be honest - there are women who still want / expect to be wined and dined on the first few dates because somehow they think they are entitled to it by virtue of being a woman.

 

 

I KNOW there are women like this, and I think it's totally lame. I see it on LS all the time. I say what I think when I encounter it, too.

 

I don't know any personally.

 

That said, and maybe this is hypocritical, but I found it romantic when my guy "treated" me in early dating. I enjoyed it! Not because I am entitled to it, it was special!

 

And that gets back to the topic. I do NOT think that personal, emotional and sexual connections are a part of what we are talking about when we talk about "equal rights," "feminism," etc.

 

A serious feminist can be a sub in a sexual relationship. She can do all the housework while her guy changes the oil. A man can practice chivalrous behavior towards women and not be expecting her to mirror that by remaining in a traditionally feminine gender role. A woman can enjoy a romantic gesture by a man who is showing interest in her without feeling "entitled" to that.

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

[Shining One]

IF A MAN IS UPSET ABOUT PAYING FOR DATES HE SHOULD NEVER DO IT.

 

I mean, STOP asking women out and paying for their dates! It's not up to women to refuse you so you can then whine about the inequity! Just STOP doing it! It's a social norm YOU are participating in YOURSELF. That's on you.

I'm not upset about paying for dates. I don't expect women to refuse my offer to pay. I expect them to reciprocate in turn. I'm disappointed when they choose not to.

 

At no point in this thread have I been whining. I posed the question as to how women who want equality reconcile this specific desire for inequality. Believe it or not, some of us are here to learn about how other people think.

Since it's important to you, you need to be true to YOURSELF. A woman who expects, or even who will accept you paying for her date in "early dating" will not be compatible with you. So look for those who won't expect, or accept that.

I agree. I give women several opportunities to reciprocate. If they choose not to, then I move on. This method works for me and I see no reason to change it.

That said, and maybe this is hypocritical, but I found it romantic when my guy "treated" me in early dating. I enjoyed it! Not because I am entitled to it, it was special!

When a woman reciprocates on a second or third date, I feel valued as a person. She is demonstrating to me that she wants to be with me for me, not for the things I can provide for her.

[mrldii]

I'm not upset about paying for dates. I don't expect women to refuse my offer to pay. I expect them to reciprocate in turn. I'm disappointed when they choose not to...

 

If this is what you "expect" (or "demand" or "want" or "would like" or "whatever"), then only date women who do this; when it is apparent that they won't reciprocate - whether they are a self-professed "feminist" OR some other label slapped upon them by others -

 

don't date them, anymore.

 

 

I "expect" to date *normal*, healthy, well-adjusted adults of the opposite sex. When they show me that they are not what I "expect", I believe them and stop dating them. It's completely in my control whether or not I date what I "expect" to date.

 

As it is in your control. "Feminism" gives you that power...and choice.

 

 

[Woggle]

I can't speak for most men but the reason I tend to be suspicious of feminism is because my first experiences with feminists are with ones that hate me. You are going to have a really hard time convincing any self respecting person of any gender to not oppose those who hate him. I have since realized that there are feminists who genuinely do want real equality and they have my full support but the misandrists I dealt who proudly called themselves feminists I must I admit left a bad taste.

[PrettyEmily77]

I KNOW there are women like this, and I think it's totally lame. I see it on LS all the time. I say what I think when I encounter it, too.

 

I don't know any personally.

 

That said, and maybe this is hypocritical, but I found it romantic when my guy "treated" me in early dating. I enjoyed it! Not because I am entitled to it, it was special!

 

And that gets back to the topic. I do NOT think that personal, emotional and sexual connections are a part of what we are talking about when we talk about "equal rights," "feminism," etc.

 

A serious feminist can be a sub in a sexual relationship. She can do all the housework while her guy changes the oil. A man can practice chivalrous behavior towards women and not be expecting her to mirror that by remaining in a traditionally feminine gender role. A woman can enjoy a romantic gesture by a man who is showing interest in her without feeling "entitled" to that.

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

I agree with you, although I have personally met women IRL who expect that kind of treatment and I believe that wanting fairness means accepting rights and wrongs on both sides.

 

I don't view myself as a feminist at all - more like the proud product of feminism, if that makes sense, and I live and breathe equality on a daily basis - but I value it as a movement and respect those women who put themselves forward politically to make things change.

 

I don't see any link between feminism and dating at all; just (some) men who are struggling to find their place and are laying it all on 'feminism', whatever that means for them.

 

And yeah,being treated by your guy in the early stages is quite special, especially when he wants to rather than because he feels like he has to .

[sambolini]

I can't speak for most men but the reason I tend to be suspicious of feminism is because my first experiences with feminists are with ones that hate me. You are going to have a really hard time convincing any self respecting person of any gender to not oppose those who hate him. I have since realized that there are feminists who genuinely do want real equality and they have my full support but the misandrists I dealt who proudly called themselves feminists I must I admit left a bad taste.

 

This.

 

Most of the women in this thread who call themselves feminists are probably honest, good, caring individuals. I have absolutely nothing against any individual in this thread.

 

It's with the feminist movement in aggregate where I find issues.

 

As an atheist, I find the concept of religion ludicrous. However, many of my best friends are Christian. I love them, and am lucky to have them in my life. I would never not be friends with them because of their beliefs.

 

But I will never hesitate to share my distaste for organized religion. They know it and accept me anyway.

 

The same holds true for feminism. Individual feminists don't usually treat me any different. My project manager at work is a feminist, and I absolutely love working for her. She's smart, funny, and extremely capable. We joke and laugh all the time.

 

But when feminists congregate (much like conservative Christians) we see a completely different side. This is the side that wants to force my daughter to pray in school (or subsidize the poor reproductive choices of single mothers because children), or institute Christian ideals as law (institute feminist ideals as law) which only benefits their group and nobody else.

 

Individuals? Love 'em. Groups of people? Hate 'em.

 

We can argue the politics of feminism all day, but getting back to the context of feminism over dating, I agree with the consensus: it's all about choices. Nobody has to date, or pay for someone, or do anything they don't want to do.

 

Period.

 

As such, I would never date a feminist. It would never happen. My choice, my right. Just as it would be a woman's right to reject me for whatever reason.

 

It's always been a two way street. And as long as humans have free will, it always will be.