Why does the guy pay (or not)?

[Ruby Slippers]

Ruby aren't you always saying that if a man doesn't pay the whole check, he'll never see you again and he's not a man all that?

Not at all. I always offer. Even when I've dated men with ten times my income or more, I offer and am ready to follow through. But they rarely accept the offer.

 

And it's not about the amount of money spent - it's about the intentions behind providing.

 

My last boyfriend made a ton of money, he paid for everything, and he wanted to get married. But he didn't really love me, so I left. My new man has less money, but I feel a thousand times happier with him, even if we go out for $2 breakfast tacos, because he lavishes me with love and treasures me.

 

I told my ex that I would rather eat the simple meals of a monk in a house rich with love, than have every material thing I could want in a palace with a king who doesn't really love me, and I meant that.

[jay1983]

But didn't you say if he excepted, you'd be turned off?

 

I get your point, I'm just about this.

[Ruby Slippers]

But didn't you say if he excepted, you'd be turned off?

 

I get your point, I'm just about this.

Not that I'd be turned off. Just that I feel more valued by a man who is happy to provide.

 

Kind of like - a man might not be turned off if his woman doesn't cook nice meals from scratch for him because she enjoys it, but he would feel more valued and appreciated by a woman who is happy to cook for him and provide him with good food.

 

Yesterday, my man and I dropped by to see my mom, and she surprised us with grilled rib eye steaks. We shared one and took two home. We shared another one for dinner. He told me to cut the portion I wanted. Instead, I cut off the best, tenderest pieces and served them to him. Then he insisted on giving me back some of the choice cuts. We're always trying to elevate and please the other like this.

[Versacehottie]

I'm confused by this. A guy would have showed her what he thinks of her by how he treated her, by how much fun they had, by if he wants to see her again, etc. Please explain the "crap guy" thing. A lady earlier wrote something similar but in inverse, the "best guys" will always pay. I found that amusing as well.

 

I never really analyzed my behavior, but after giving it some thought:

 

If the first date is just coffee or something, definitely it's going to be split - it's barely a cost to anyone. If it is a nice restaurant that I picked, I'm going to pay for it completely, but then I put the onus on her for the next date (she has to plan and pay for it). If she picked the location on the first date, I'll usually split it.

 

For me it's a matter of self-worth. I am worth her picking up her share of the tab. Obviously if things go well and we start dating and a relationship or whatever, I'll start picking up a lot more for her.

 

If you are making a girl pay for a coffee on a first date, you will look petty. You are focused on the quantity of the actual cost of the date. Most women are not evaluating in those terms. You will struggle on this issue alone to get to having a relationship where you pay more often. Actually most women once they are in a relationship start to split things more evenly than at the beginning--but you gotta make it to a relationship first. In your case, as with other guys who feel so strongly about the actual costs, I do think it's better to be upfront do what you are comfortable with, ie split or whatever. Because you are keeping score and you will only be happy with a woman who is on the same page as that and see's the financial dating side similarly to you so might as well put it out front, first date.

 

I think it will hurt your chances with quite a few great women and narrow your dating pool significantly but you will be satisfied in the end. If you are truly on the fence (it doesn't sound like you are at the heart of it), then try to hear what some of the guys on this thread who do pay at the beginning what their reasons are. To see if any of it rings true with you. Forget what we are saying because it is not coming from the same point of view. Listen to these other guys--they represent your competition and peer group.

 

BTW, as an interesting side note. Once several years ago, a guy took me on a first date for coffee and so obviously didn't want to pay. I was embarrassed for him and on that fact alone would have never considered seeing him again. Just so you don't think it's strictly for dating. I often get asked to meet people who want my professional guidance for their career or like an informational interview and it's almost always coffee. The people who did not offer to treat me failed the interview essentially. It's a great character reveal for someone to forgo traditional norms and manners: someone willing to bypass those to save $5 bucks will probably try to get one over on you in other ways down the road or operates from a selfish, petty or keeping score point of view. It's not about the money. As I have said on this issue before, many women spend a great deal more getting ready for the date than is spent on the date because she wants to look good for this hopeful new guy. Operate from a place of hope and excitement, not how little can I get away with before she proves herself to me. That's why a lot of guys here (one in particular) say that they don't mind paying even if the dating doesn't work out a month from the initial first date. The question is who do you want to be. A lot of women are generous and givers by nature...searching for their similar in male counterpart.

 

Also how does she show she is not overly excited and desperate. If she is paying as well. Guys already have a tendency to think women (especially from online dating) are desperate.

 

Make a girl pay for her coffee? oh no, how is that working out for you? bye.

[joseb]

If he loves her and values her, he won't want to risk losing her to someone who does a better job of proving his soundness as a husband, father of her children, and provider for their family.

 

So would this logic apply to a first/second date? These are the dates people seem to expect the guy to pay the most. How can a guy know if he loves someone on a first or second date?

 

I know you can just do cheap coffee dates etc to avoid it being an issue.

Just curious.

Edited August 4, 2015 by joseb

[SawtoothMars]

It has never bothered me to pay for a date. It's what comes afterwards that pisses me off.

 

IF I pay for a date, I feel it's well within my rights to expect her to respond when I contact her later. I don't mind if she says she isn't interested in going out again, but I expect the courtesy of being told.

 

This whole "fade out" bull**** isn't acceptable. I really don't think that is too much to ask, but I've had some women complain that guys get angry and yell at them for open rejections. My response is simply put your big girl panties on and ignore the handfull of jerkoffs.

[Ruby Slippers]

So would this logic apply to a first/second date? These are the dates people seem to expect the guy to pay the most. How can a guy know if he loves someone on a first or second date?

 

I know you can just do cheap coffee dates etc to avoid it being an issue.

Just curious.

I did comment on this earlier - I said that if I were a man, I would never take a woman I didn't know or barely knew on an expensive date. I would give her a small token of courtesy - a cup of coffee, ice cream, etc.

 

In fact, this is exactly how my boyfriend did it. We met at a coffee shop, and he got our drinks and a pastry. After getting to know each other for 45 minutes, he invited me to lunch anywhere I wanted to go. After spending a short amount of time together, he knew he had strong interest, so invited me for lunch. We went to a nearby restaurant, and while I limited my order to one of the most modest and least expensive items on the menu because I wouldn't feel right ordering something pricier with a man I barely know, he ordered a second course of one of the best and priciest things on the menu.

 

Ever since then, he has told me he'll take me anywhere I want go. When I'm searching for restaurants to try, I always look for the good deals. If we go to a pricier place, it's always at his suggestion. I could have him spending a lot more money, but I told him I'd rather be frugal and save for more important things than overpriced food and entertainment, like the down payment on a house and raising a family.

[Versacehottie]

The hard part is that most guys want to be the pursuers at the beginning. And set the pace and lead in general. If a woman asks a guy out meaning to pay, she is in a weird catch 22 where she may turn a guy off by becoming the pursuer. So the only alternative is to offer to pay for a date he has asked you on when the bill comes, which will be a bit of a surprise for him since he thought he was paying all along. A lot guys won't accept at this point because they planned and controlled the date (in terms of finances), which usually endears them to the girl more because it is the exhibition of good manners and they appreciate the gesture and that's all it is about to them (not the actual money). At the beginning to offer to take a guy out unless it's his birthday or a celebration of something for him, it can upset the overall dynamic of things--as much as you do want to pay, ie see him. Basically, every time a guy asks you out, he is confirming he wants to continue seeing you---a luxury women traditionally don't have. Catch 22.

[Phoe]

My first handful of relationships and dates, I paid for everything. Always.

 

The concept of men "being the provider" and "obligated to pay" and "masculinity" were totally foreign to me.

 

Then came my ex. Insisted on paying for EVERYTHING. ALL the time. Even when I took him out for his birthday, he wrestled the bill out of my hands and paid it himself. It made me very uncomfortable. Always buying things I didn't want, paying for things that weren't necessary. Putting such a HUGE emphasis on "I am the man and I am paying for you!!!!" It started to feel like it was a means of control for him. If I found ways to avoid having to go anywhere or get anything that needed to be paid for, he'd start slipping money into my purse. What the hell?!? I don't want this!! It totally stressed me out.

 

I prefer a middle ground. I do very much so appreciate being treated, and it makes me feel cared for. However, I do also like being able to offer up a contribution and not feel like I'm gonna get berated for it. It makes me much happier and more comfortable when I can play a part sometimes.

[SawtoothMars]

The hard part is that most guys want to be the pursuers at the beginning. And set the pace and lead in general. If a woman asks a guy out meaning to pay, she is in a weird catch 22 where she may turn a guy off by becoming the pursuer. So the only alternative is to offer to pay for a date he has asked you on when the bill comes, which will be a bit of a surprise for him since he thought he was paying all along. A lot guys won't accept at this point because they planned and controlled the date (in terms of finances), which usually endears them to the girl more because it is the exhibition of good manners and they appreciate the gesture and that's all it is about to them (not the actual money). At the beginning to offer to take a guy out unless it's his birthday or a celebration of something for him, it can upset the overall dynamic of things--as much as you do want to pay, ie see him. Basically, every time a guy asks you out, he is confirming he wants to continue seeing you---a luxury women traditionally don't have. Catch 22.

 

Yeah, Yeah... I think we all get the how and why of guys paying for dates. I think you are ignoring the most important question.

 

What should be expected of women?

[lino]

at the responses here! Especially the 'wild animal' and 'caveman days' stuff.

 

Where in the wild animal world or caveman era is the equivalent of a woman spending majority of her time on Facebook? Vegans? Plastic surgery?

 

And a natural process, child birth, is being compared to and insisting to be compensated by 'natural' acts like paying for 'natural' restaurant meals with 'natural' plastic currency or credit cards

 

Or maybe I'm having a dream and we're still actually living in 180,000 BC?

 

The lengths folks will go to justify a huuuuuuuge double standard is laughable.

 

Long live 'equality'

[joseb]

I did comment on this earlier - I said that if I were a man, I would never take a woman I didn't know or barely knew on an expensive date. I would give her a small token of courtesy - a cup of coffee, ice cream, etc.

Sorry Ruby I missed that earlier.

[jay1983]

I did comment on this earlier - I said that if I were a man, I would never take a woman I didn't know or barely knew on an expensive date. I would give her a small token of courtesy - a cup of coffee, ice cream, etc.

.

 

I don't wanna go for coffee or ice cream, that's boring. I wanna go do something fun like food, drinks and mini golf, spend way more than I need to, then get on here and complain about it.

[mrldii]

at the responses here! Especially the 'wild animal' and 'caveman days' stuff.

 

Where in the wild animal world or caveman era is the equivalent of a woman spending majority of her time on Facebook? Vegans? Plastic surgery?

 

And a natural process, child birth, is being compared to and insisting to be compensated by 'natural' acts like paying for 'natural' restaurant meals with 'natural' plastic currency or credit cards

 

Or maybe I'm having a dream and we're still actually living in 180,000 BC?

 

The lengths folks will go to justify a huuuuuuuge double standard is laughable.

 

Long live 'equality'

 

There's no "double standard"; there are women who believe the man should be the provider, from the first date all the way through the 'x' # of kids, and until the day they both die. They're called "traditionalists".

 

There are women who are willing to - and perfectly capable of - paying their own way and will do so on the first, fifth, and 125th dates. They're the ones who go back to work after they give birth to children. They're the ones who say, "I'm not happy in this relationship, because even though we both go to work for the same 10 hours a day, when you come home, you check out...leaving me to cook for, clean after, and care for the kids. I want a divorce."

 

Yanno, the "non-traditionalists"...i.e., the "feminazis". They're the ones that most of you men are disgusted with...and by.

 

What some of you men appear to be most interested in is finding a woman who will pay her half on the dates, give you 100% of her income, raise your children and tend to your home/food/laundry for you, and be damned grateful for the opportunity.

 

In other words, you are looking for a "traditional doormat".

 

 

Good luck with that...

[SawtoothMars]

There's no "double standard"; there are women who believe the man should be the provider, from the first date all the way through the 'x' # of kids, and until the day they both die. They're called "traditionalists".

There are women who are willing to - and perfectly capable of - paying their own way and will do so on the first, fifth, and 125th dates. They're the ones who go back to work after they give birth to children. They're the ones who say, "I'm not happy in this relationship, because even though we both go to work for the same 10 hours a day, when you come home, you check out...leaving me to cook for, clean after, and care for the kids. I want a divorce."

Yanno, the "non-traditionalists"...i.e., the "feminazis". They're the ones that most of you men are disgusted with...and by.

What some of you men appear to be most interested in is finding a woman who will pay her half on the dates, give you 100% of her income, raise your children and tend to your home/food/laundry for you, and be damned grateful for the opportunity.

In other words, you are looking for a "traditional doormat".

Good luck with that...

 

Nobody wants a doormat. Guys want to marry a woman they can respect.

 

I think what you find is that most of the men dislike being in a situation where 90% of the time they have to pay to get rejected.

 

I asked before what is expected of women in exchange. I honestly can't think of anything in particular.

[Woggle]

I wish some people would just be honest and say they like being wined and dined instead of trying to explain it away with some half baked evo psych response. There are women who like being wined and dined and having money spent on them and there are men who like spending money on women. It sure as hell isn't me but if both side are happy and they know the score who am I to judge.

[CTRL C]

Seems like I touched a nerve!

 

Okay, I want to bring back but slightly rephrase the original questions:

 

1. Men, why do you choose to pay or nor pay for a date?

2. What would you consider a polite and appropriate response from her in either situation?

 

3. Women, how do you respond to the man offering or insisting on paying?

4. How do you respond to his not offering or his suggesting to split (or that you pay)?

Edited August 4, 2015 by CTRL C

[mrldii]

Nobody wants a doormat. Guys want to marry a woman they can respect.

 

I think what you find is that most of the men dislike being in a situation where 90% of the time they have to pay to get rejected.

 

I asked before what is expected of women in exchange. I honestly can't think of anything in particular.

 

You'll have to ask the women who believe it's expected of men to pay on dates; I'm not one of those women. I'm one of those "feminazis" who expects to pay my own way, and expects to date/spend time with/share a life with a man who expects me to be around as long as I, too, want to be there...and not a moment longer.

 

 

I'm the type of woman most of you men don't/won't date, as is evidenced by your own cited figure of "90% of the time [you] have to pay to get rejected"; I'm the type that would have rejected you at no cost to you.

 

I'm a "feminazi", i.e., a woman who calls men on their "Oh, woe is me!!!" B.S. The only "double-standard" involved in this discussion is the men who want women to foot 50% on dates but still believe the man is in charge 100% of the time; the only time you want to be a 50/50 teammate is when the dinner tab arrives.

 

 

[mike_89]

I always wait until the girl offers to pay half, then I will pay 100%. Why do I wait until she offers to pay half? Almost all female friends I have told me they have the guy pay the first date and won't offer to pay half if they consider the date a fail and they won't want a second date. Free drinks/food/whatever right? So if a girl does not offer to pay half, I split the bill and never contact her again. Same reason I never buy a girl drinks while in a club. If I pay the first date though I do expect the girl to pay the second date. Dating would be very expensive business if I were to pay for every date I'd have.

[mrldii]

Seems like I touched a nerve!

 

Okay, I want to bring back but slightly rephrase the original questions:

 

...3. Women, how do you respond to the man offering or insisting on paying?

4. How do you respond to his not offering or his suggesting to split (or that you pay)?

 

3. At the risk of being a "feminazi", I insist that he's NOT paying and then ensure that he doesn't;

 

4. Just like he's not going to tell me I'm NOT going to pay, he's also not going to tell me that I AM going to pay. If he doesn't say a word, I say, "What's my share/Here's my share."

 

 

If he's got a problem with any of that (hurts his male pride, I'm too much of a "feminazi", he's too broke to pay his share, he attempts to dine-and-dash, etc.),

 

we won't be seeing each other, again. The purpose OF dating is to find a like-minded, like-lived person to spend time with; it is NOT to finally resolve the "Who Pays?!?" quandary which has plagued mankind since the first woman brought home a paycheck which included a portion of disposable income.

 

[DJOkawari]

Thanks for the response! Hopefully this isn't too long:

 

If you are making a girl pay for a coffee on a first date, you will look petty. You are focused on the quantity of the actual cost of the date. Most women are not evaluating in those terms. You will struggle on this issue alone to get to having a relationship where you pay more often. Actually most women once they are in a relationship start to split things more evenly than at the beginning--but you gotta make it to a relationship first. In your case, as with other guys who feel so strongly about the actual costs, I do think it's better to be upfront do what you are comfortable with, ie split or whatever. Because you are keeping score and you will only be happy with a woman who is on the same page as that and see's the financial dating side similarly to you so might as well put it out front, first date.

 

Maybe it didn't come off the right way. I'm not counting at all. My general clueless-ness stems from being brought up in a culture where dating doesn't exist. About coffee, as I'll explain below it's a different issue.

 

When I discuss first dates, I'm thinking of girls I've met recently, whom, I don't know so well. If I am asking my crush out of something, I'll make it as special as possible (and that's a different scenario).

 

The reason I like to split the first meal or to pay for the first date entirely and then have her do the second is that I don't know her and I want to respect her as an independent human being. For example, I often give money away...though to whom? The less fortunate, the incapable, those on hard times, or in need. I see my date as an equal and so I feel like I wouldn't pay for her on the first/second date. Down the line...when she's someone special to me, I'll pay for everything. I often take my friends out to dinner because they can't afford it and I have expensive taste. I would do it for any person I loved, at any time, I just don't love these girls on the first date.

 

That's my reason, really. I just don't see why I would. No one has a good reason for me so far beyond ladies stating, "I would never have a second date with a guy that didn't pay for the first". Basically, feeling entitled for being born female as far as I can understand.

 

 

Here is how coffee normally goes for me:

 

We meet and walk up to the counter, one of us is first and that person orders and pays and then the second person does the same. Am I supposed to cut in and pay for her then? I think that's awkward and unnecessary because it is an inexpensive item.

 

 

I think it will hurt your chances with quite a few great women and narrow your dating pool significantly but you will be satisfied in the end. If you are truly on the fence (it doesn't sound like you are at the heart of it), then try to hear what some of the guys on this thread who do pay at the beginning what their reasons are. To see if any of it rings true with you. Forget what we are saying because it is not coming from the same point of view. Listen to these other guys--they represent your competition and peer group.

 

I've never had it impact me negatively so far. Basically, all of the other guys's posts describe three things to me:

1) The girl is superior to you and controls the date (and is also the gate-keeper to sex). The fact that she showed up means you should pay.

2) It is a guy's duty to pay (an unwritten rule of life).

3) She will leave you to go date another guy if you don't.

 

None of these really conform to my conception of reality and none of these are a real reason (beyond the last one...if it were true, but my experiences tell me it isn't).

 

The only experience I've ever had regarding the paying turning a girl off is an ex tried to reconnect with me and we went to an expensive dinner which I paid for (I picked the location...I had a craving for that particular food). She contacted me again later and we planned to cook together. I bought the ingredients (and picked the recipe), but she had to stay late at work and so we didn't have time to cook so instead when she showed up we ordered pizza. I split that cost with her. When I was teasing her about how she ate her entire pizza and didn't even let me try a slice she complained about how she paid for it and of course she was going to eat it if she had to pay for it. I thought it was a joke but she was actually angry. When I was in love with her I paid for everything, so I guess she expected that to continue. I'm happy to say that she never contacted me again after that night (aka realized she couldn't use me for free meals any more).

 

 

BTW, as an interesting side note. Once several years ago, a guy took me on a first date for coffee and so obviously didn't want to pay. I was embarrassed for him and on that fact alone would have never considered seeing him again.

 

I referenced this earlier, I just don't see how the scenario came up. I am very interested in the etiquette here. Based on your anecdote alone I'll probably just pay for coffee on my next date if I like the girl. I can see how him badly not wanting to pay is a deal breaker, I dislike that characteristic as well, but I also see you badly not wanting to pay as a negative characteristic. How do you frame that as positive?

 

 

Just so you don't think it's strictly for dating. I often get asked to meet people who want my professional guidance for their career or like an informational interview and it's almost always coffee. The people who did not offer to treat me failed the interview essentially. It's a great character reveal for someone to forgo traditional norms and manners: someone willing to bypass those to save $5 bucks will probably try to get one over on you in other ways down the road or operates from a selfish, petty or keeping score point of view. It's not about the money.

 

I've heard that if you are asking for professional guidance and they agree to coffee the etiquette is to pay for it. I agree with that entirely because you are asking for a favor. I just don't feel that a first date is me asking for a favor. Again, it's not being petty, it's just simply "why would I do that?"

 

As I have said on this issue before, many women spend a great deal more getting ready for the date than is spent on the date because she wants to look good for this hopeful new guy. Operate from a place of hope and excitement, not how little can I get away with before she proves herself to me. That's why a lot of guys here (one in particular) say that they don't mind paying even if the dating doesn't work out a month from the initial first date. The question is who do you want to be. A lot of women are generous and givers by nature...searching for their similar in male counterpart.

 

Mostly I operate from a place of "what I feel like doing" and I don't really feel like paying for her meal as I am just starting to get to know her. As far as the appearance thing goes, I don't think it applies to my situation...my appearance is my lively-hood but regardless of that isn't this another one of those "sex" or rather "sexuality" as a justification for why I should pay?

 

Also how does she show she is not overly excited and desperate. If she is paying as well. Guys already have a tendency to think women (especially from online dating) are desperate.

 

I don't really see how that thought works. If I meet a girl through OLD aren't we equally desperate? If we both go on a first date aren't we equally desperate? I don't get this part at all. Who thinks girls are desperate anyway? As far as I can see, guys are the desperate ones...and this paying for everything seems evidence of that.

 

Make a girl pay for her coffee? oh no, how is that working out for you? bye.

 

The guy didn't make the girl do anything...she ordered coffee at an establishment that sells it. As I said before, I've never had an issue on a first/second date regarding paying or not paying for something.

[SawtoothMars]

You'll have to ask the women who believe it's expected of men to pay on dates; I'm not one of those women. I'm one of those "feminazis" who expects to pay my own way, and expects to date/spend time with/share a life with a man who expects me to be around as long as I, too, want to be there...and not a moment longer.

I'm the type of woman most of you men don't/won't date, as is evidenced by your own cited figure of "90% of the time [you] have to pay to get rejected"; I'm the type that would have rejected you at no cost to you.

I'm a "feminazi", i.e., a woman who calls men on their "Oh, woe is me!!!" B.S. The only "double-standard" involved in this discussion is the men who want women to foot 50% on dates but still believe the man is in charge 100% of the time; the only time you want to be a 50/50 teammate is when the dinner tab arrives.

 

I don't believe you would be the type to reject me. I am quite addictive in person.

 

I applaud you for not letting people pay for you. I'm generally the same way... it makes me feel indebted. I hate that feeling.

 

If a woman doesn't want my company anymore, I will always be happy to walk her to the door. I will always have confidence in my options.

 

However, all that aside... If society in general expects men to pay for dates, and it's impossible to argue that it does not, what is expected of women in return? You only get large amounts of discontent from situations that are inherently unfair. I believe date paying right now is one of those situations. Things were different in my grandfathers day because there were some fairly rigid gender expectations on women. Those no longer exist, yet the expectations of men have changed very little up to this point.

[Her Bridges]

Seems like I touched a nerve!

 

Okay, I want to bring back but slightly rephrase the original questions:

3. Women, how do you respond to the man offering or insisting on paying?

4. How do you respond to his not offering or his suggesting to split (or that you pay)?

 

I would be paying attention less to the action itself and more to the intent behind it. I mean, it's not just dates where people offer to pay others' way, right? It also happens with parents/kids, friends, coworkers. Someone does it as a gesture of kindness and goodwill.

 

I would never expect someone to pay for me, but if they want to (not just offer, but after my offer to split they still WANT to) then I will thank them with the gratitude I would honestly feel for the gesture... in the same way that I hope they would appreciate and allow me to provide a kind gesture of my own, whether that be paying for a later date or some other way I choose to show it.

[SawtoothMars]

I would be paying attention less to the action itself and more to the intent behind it. I mean, it's not just dates where people offer to pay others' way, right? It also happens with parents/kids, friends, coworkers. Someone does it as a gesture of kindness and goodwill.

I would never expect someone to pay for me, but if they want to (not just offer, but after my offer to split they still WANT to) then I will thank them with the gratitude I would honestly feel for the gesture... in the same way that I hope they would appreciate and allow me to provide a kind gesture of my own, whether that be paying for a later date or some other way I choose to show it.

 

Are you referencing sexual acts?

[DJOkawari]

There are women who are willing to - and perfectly capable of - paying their own way and will do so on the first, fifth, and 125th dates. They're the ones who go back to work after they give birth to children. They're the ones who say, "I'm not happy in this relationship, because even though we both go to work for the same 10 hours a day, when you come home, you check out...leaving me to cook for, clean after, and care for the kids. I want a divorce."

 

Yanno, the "non-traditionalists"...i.e., the "feminazis". They're the ones that most of you men are disgusted with...and by.

 

If he was helping her cook, clean, and take care of the kids the scenario would be perfect, and she wouldn't want a divorce right? Sign me up for that.