Marital Concepts from the 1950s

[xxoo]

Feminism is about equal opportunity, not making everything 50/50 down the line. Equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity to be a business person, an engineer, a teacher, a judge, a politician, an athlete, a soldier, a nurse, or a stay-at-home parent. A world that doesn't place restrictions on who can do what based on their gender. This benefits men as well as women, as it opens up traditionally female roles to men who want them.

 

The people who are threatened by feminism are people who don't want others to have that opportunity to choose their own path. Somehow, life was better for them when paths were more limited. Probably the path offered to them was a path they wanted, and the path offered to others kept those people where they wanted them. Less competition, more power. When the playing field is open for all, the best rise to the top based on ability rather than gender, and that is the way it should be.

[Shining One]

Feminism is about equal opportunity, not making everything 50/50 down the line. Equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity to be a business person, an engineer, a teacher, a judge, a politician, an athlete, a soldier, a nurse, or a stay-at-home parent. A world that doesn't place restrictions on who can do what based on their gender. This benefits men as well as women, as it opens up traditionally female roles to men who want them.

What about the societal benefits provided to one gender and not another? To me, those go hand in hand with equal opportunity. Paternity Leave should equal Maternity Leave, for example.

[alphamale]

for true equality women need to lift their own heavy objects and kill their own spiders

[xxoo]

What about the societal benefits provided to one gender and not another? To me, those go hand in hand with equal opportunity. Paternity Leave should equal Maternity Leave, for example.

 

Yes, I like the idea of flexible family leave, vs. maternity leave, that the family can divide in ways that meet their needs. So if there were 16 weeks total of leave, they could divide 8/8, or the mother could take 6 for pregnancy recovery and the father get the remaining 10, or the father could take 2 (or none), and give the mother the remainder. Whatever makes sense for the family.

[elaine567]

What about the societal benefits provided to one gender and not another? To me, those go hand in hand with equal opportunity. Paternity Leave should equal Maternity Leave, for example.

 

Parents in Britain will, from April 2015, be able to share 12 months of leave after the birth of a child.

In Sweden, parents have been able to do this since 1974.

 

"Under the UK plan, new mothers must take the first two weeks but will be able to transfer as much of the rest as the couple choose to their partner – or each parent could take 25 weeks together. The first 39 weeks will be paid at the statutory minimum."

Edited May 25, 2015 by elaine567

[Sassy Girl]

What about the societal benefits provided to one gender and not another? To me, those go hand in hand with equal opportunity. Paternity Leave should equal Maternity Leave, for example.

 

I ha e no problem with this. In fact, in my country, we have parental leave, not maternity leave. So it does exist. However, there are other issues at play as to why women are the majority who take it. Besides biological factors (women are the only ones who can give birth and breastfeed) women are after the ones with a lower income either because their role just gets paid less generally (roles which have a large number of women such as teachers, nurses and carers) or the gender pay gap means that often some will take the leave.

 

And again, whilst I'm in favour of EQUALITY, as Iv maintained through this thread, by pulling out the "but what about the menz" argument what ou are in fact doing is stating that despite the OVERWHELMING evidence of deeply entrenched and systemic oppression of women, socially, sexually and ideologically, that equality can't be achieved until we fix all the ways the system affects men. Your own patriarchal system. So rather than fight for our own equality, we have to fight for yours first.

 

Umm what?

[lollipopspot]

The people who are threatened by feminism are people who don't want others to have that opportunity to choose their own path. Somehow, life was better for them when paths were more limited. Probably the path offered to them was a path they wanted, and the path offered to others kept those people where they wanted them.

 

I assume that's the case with the OP. Despite having been in the military, she wishes to be a SAHM. And because she hasn't been able to find a man who shares that goal and ability to fulfill it, longs for a past (albeit shrouded in fairy tale) when there were fewer options.

 

What about the societal benefits provided to one gender and not another? To me, those go hand in hand with equal opportunity. Paternity Leave should equal Maternity Leave, for example.

 

As others have said, there are countries that are fulfilling that, and for the most part, it's a good idea - "family leave." However, you have to take account for the biology such that the female is the one who actually gives birth and needs the physical recovery. As far as I know, men don't carry babies and give birth yet.

[Sassy Girl]

Were you in the bedroom? I think not. Why waste time on another female who can't discuss a topic with a modicum of civility and respect? Your ignorance of the phrase 'personal experience' is astounding, but I'm not surprised in the least, since it's your MO. Next.

 

It wasn't clear from your post whether you were speaking specifically about your anecdotal measure or generally as you semed to switch between the two (eg " I doubt man...."

 

I assumed the latter with this particular point you made.

 

If you are referring to the specific event you are correct - I was not in the bedroom and have no idea.

 

However if it was the latter and you are implying with your comment that you can't confirm or deny that rape in marriage EXISTS because women are strong enough to defend themselves against rape in marriage then yes, I will call that out as emphatically wrong. Your comment about a woman and a shovel being enough to fend off rape against man was the part I actually took issue with.

[truncated]

you forgot that men should get custody of their children 50% of the time

 

I would hope that would be determined based on what's best for the kids, not gender.

[xxoo]

When considering these topics, it helps to think of non-traditional couples like families with two male parents, or two female parents. In a couple where 2 women are raising a family, who do you think earns the money? Who does the lifting and kills the bugs? One or both of the women.

 

In families with two men raising a family, who takes parental leave? Who cares for the children? Who does the cooking and laundry? One or both.

 

Obviously, adults of either gender can serve in these roles. In a couple, one partner may be better at one job than the other. It may even be that most men do a particular job better than women. But that doesn't mean that there won't be individual women who can do it as well as any man doing the job, and she shouldn't be denied the opportunity based on her gender. And the same is true for a man who does something traditionally gender-typed for women.

[elaine567]

Your comment about a woman and a shovel being enough to fend off rape against man was the part I actually took issue with.

 

"Rape in marriage was criminalised as recently as 1982 in Scotland and 1991 in England. Before these dates a woman had no legal protection from rape by her husband. Fortunately, rape within marriage and other relationships is now clearly recognised within the law"

Rape within relationships

[Sassy Girl]

"Rape in marriage was criminalised as recently as 1982 in Scotland and 1991 in England. Before these dates a woman had no legal protection from rape by her husband. Fortunately, rape within marriage and other relationships is now clearly recognised within the law"

Rape within relationships

 

I know, right?

 

And yet this raises another issue.

 

There's a big difference between the White woman's feminism and true universal feminism.

 

There is protection by the law for most western women, but what about the billions of women living in developing or third world countries. Countries where women can't even ride a bus without being brutally raped to death.

 

Hell, in my country our native indigenous women are 80 times more

Likely than white women to be victims of rape, assault and violence. One in four alone are hospitalised.

So yeah the law is slow catching up, but it's not enough to say " the legislation is there, you have equality now, quit your complaining!" Because gender inequality so entrenched that for many, the law is pointless and ineffective.

[Shining One]

And again, whilst I'm in favour of EQUALITY, as Iv maintained through this thread, by pulling out the "but what about the menz" argument what ou are in fact doing is stating that despite the OVERWHELMING evidence of deeply entrenched and systemic oppression of women, socially, sexually and ideologically, that equality can't be achieved until we fix all the ways the system affects men. Your own patriarchal system. So rather than fight for our own equality, we have to fight for yours first.

 

Umm what?

I'm saying these changes should be brought about in unison with the support of both genders. By definition, an equal society does not provide benefits on the basis of gender. I understand there will be some exceptions since only women can physically give birth, but those should be few.

 

The highlighted word choice is telling. You see male and female equality as different things. Equality is equality. One gender can not be "more equal" than another.

[Shining One]

I would hope that would be determined based on what's best for the kids, not gender.

The default should be 50/50 with extenuating circumstances determining percentage shifts. An interesting approach would be to provide all the data to the judge with all gender information removed. Thus the judge would award custody percentages to Parent A and Parent B based on data with no gender bias involved. This would of course only apply to situations in which the parents can't come to an amicable decision on their own.

[elaine567]

The default should be 50/50 with extenuating circumstances determining percentage shifts. An interesting approach would be to provide all the data to the judge with all gender information removed. Thus the judge would award custody percentages to Parent A and Parent B based on data with no gender bias involved. This would of course only apply to situations in which the parents can't come to an amicable decision on their own.

Dispelling The Myth Of Gender Bias In The Family Court System*|*Cathy Meyer

 

According to DivorcePeers.com, the majority of child custody cases are not decided by the courts.

 

• In 51 percent of custody cases, both parents agreed -- on their own -- that mom become the custodial parent.
  

 

• In 29 percent of custody cases, the decision was made without any third party involvement.
  

 

• In 11 percent of custody cases, the decision for mom to have custody was made during mediation.
  

 

• In 5 percent of custody cases, the issue was resolved after a custody evaluation.
  

 

• Only 4 percent of custody cases went to trial and of that 4 percent, only 1.5 percent completed custody litigation.
  

In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system. How can there be a bias toward mothers when fewer than 4 percent of custody decisions are made by the Family Court?

[Shining One]

Dispelling The Myth Of Gender Bias In The Family Court System*|*Cathy Meyer

Interesting info. I admit, I'm not very well read on this specific subject. All of my experience comes from my friends who have gone through divorce. Clearly, I need to educate myself.

 

The point remains though. There are gender specific societal benefits (for both genders) that need to be addressed in order to achieve true equality.

[calvincline47]

Let's also not forget about the dangers that men have had to experience over the years.

 

Who were the ones that stopped the Nazis? Who were the ones that allowed Scandinavian countries freedom and, therefore, allowed them to be the most feminist countries in the world.

 

American men....with blood, sweat, and tears. Women didn't have to fight in these wars. One could potentially describe that as privilege.

 

So before you ladies whine and complain about your perceived injustices (which none of you even had to experience in this day and age), just remember that all of the rights that you have now are afforded to you on the backs of many dead American men.

 

Crazy how people forget that....especially on this day.

[lollipopspot]

Let's also not forget about the dangers that men have had to experience over the years.

 

Sure, let's not forget about the fear of sexual assault and rape that most women experience daily and work their lives around. I would LOVE to be able to take a walk at night in "safe" areas where men feel comfortable walking around. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to be walked to my car at night for fear of assault. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to think twice about a ground floor apartment. I would LOVE to be able to travel alone and not think twice about preventing sexual assault. I would LOVE to not have been flashed, stalked, yelled at, scared etc. by strange men on the street, in my neighborhood, etc.

 

As far as I know, there isn't a draft, so you're safe now.

 

It sounds like you would like to be a woman, but I think you haven't thought through the loss of physical freedom yet. Yes, let's talk about "danger."

[Eggplant]

If there is a draft for war, I think women and men alike should be drafted. Israel does it.

[calvincline47]

Sure, let's not forget about the fear of sexual assault and rape that most women experience daily and work their lives around. I would LOVE to be able to take a walk at night in "safe" areas where men feel comfortable walking around. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to be walked to my car at night for fear of assault. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to think twice about a ground floor apartment. I would LOVE to be able to travel alone and not think twice about preventing sexual assault. I would LOVE to not have been flashed, stalked, yelled at, scared etc. by strange men on the street, in my neighborhood, etc.

 

As far as I know, there isn't a draft, so you're safe now.

 

It sounds like you would like to be a woman, but I think you haven't thought through the loss of physical freedom yet. Yes, let's talk about "danger."

 

I enjoy being man. I'm attracted to woman and like being more logical on matters.

 

You are blowing the experiences of women out of proportion. You cannot compare war and death (especially for such a valiant cause) to the fear (and sensationalism) of sexual assault. It's not even close and it's a disservice for those that have fought and died for your rights.

 

But I am not surprised that you express the typical feminist "Me me me" mindset.

[calvincline47]

If there is a draft for war, I think women and men alike should be drafted. Israel does it.

 

I agree. I also think that women should be drafted and fight on the front lines.

 

Until that happens, I do not approve of any other kinds of equality.

[elaine567]

Who were the ones that stopped the Nazis? .

 

Godwin's Law

A term that originated on Usenet, Godwin's Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin's Law has effectively forfeited the argument.

[xxoo]

I agree. I also think that women should be drafted and fight on the front lines.

 

Until that happens, I do not approve of any other kinds of equality.

 

Women have been fighting for equal opportunity within the armed forces.

 

That said, as a mother of children of both genders, I dearly hope there is never another draft in my country.

[elaine567]

Women in combat: US military officially lifts ban on female soldiers | US news | The Guardian - 2013

[Sassy Girl]

Let's also not forget about the dangers that men have had to experience over the years.

 

Who were the ones that stopped the Nazis? Who were the ones that allowed Scandinavian countries freedom and, therefore, allowed them to be the most feminist countries in the world.

 

American men....with blood, sweat, and tears. Women didn't have to fight in these wars. One could potentially describe that as privilege.

 

So before you ladies whine and complain about your perceived injustices (which none of you even had to experience in this day and age), just remember that all of the rights that you have now are afforded to you on the backs of many dead American men.

 

Crazy how people forget that....especially on this day.

We have a winner.

 

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited May 25, 2015 by Sassy Girl