Marital Concepts from the 1950s

[Sassy Girl]

Yes, lets reflect on women and the role they had in marriage and society in the 1950s...

 

 

• Professional roles were closed off to women. Many companies had policies stating women should get paid less than men In many cases women weren't even given the CHOICE to work outside the home
  
• Property rights restricted. Many places women couldn't make contracts or wills. Could not sell property and in many cases didn't have the right to manage their own earnings when they did work
  
• Rape in marriage didn't exist. A woman was expected to have sex with her husband whether she wanted to or not. No autonomy over her sexuality or reproductive rights. Most forms of birth control were illegal so she was obligated to have children if she was married
  

Wow. That sounds fabulous - sign me up :-S

 

 

Death of the family? Ruination of civilisation? Please.

 

And yeah, us pesky wimminz just love to make stuff up to run a feminist agenda... holy crap I can't believe people actually swallow this tripe.

Edited May 25, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Sassy Girl]

I've been in relationships before. Never been married, but that was my choice. I don't now nor have I ever had difficulty attracting women.

 

As far as feminist regime, yes, there is one that currently invents and has always invented injustices against women, which have never actually occurred.

 

Please provide evidence of these "invented injustices". For each account, I will show you 10, no 20...no 100 instances where there are injustices against women just for being women.

 

My family is upper middle class and experienced the lifestyle and that you say never occurred. This was in the 1950s-60s time period before feminism hit and ruined the world.

 

How nice for you that you experience privilege just for being born where you are to the family you are and the gender you are. That doesn't make you better than anyone. You know what that makes you? Lucky. And if you were half as intelligent as you think you are you would realise that. You're just lucky.

 

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I was speaking in terms of wealth.

 

What do I care if a country has a better standard of living if it does not benefit me directly. My personal standard of living would have been higher in previous generations, which is all I really care about, to be honest.

 

It does not benefit you either. You are a male. You are brainwashed to think that things are better for you than they actually are.

 

A few basics for you:

 

 

 

Full Definition of FEMINISM

 

1

: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

 

2

: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

 

 

* Note EQUALITY. Same.

 

 

priv·i·lege

 

(prĭv′ə-lĭj, prĭv′lĭj)n.1. a. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right.

b. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.

 

 

*Note: to the DETRIMENT OF OTHERS. Feminism is based on equality of the genders. Protecting your privilege comes at the expense of all other... And you say feminism is ruining the world?? Come again???

 

And finally The United Nations has evidence that gender equality creates positive health outcomes, economic outcomes and social outcomes.

 

 

So... I'd love to know how you can actually claim that gender equality is ruining the world. Your world maybe. But you're just going to have to suck it up.

[RoseVille]

Oh Honey. You do understand that this "grand old time" you espouse, where the wife was a SAH didn't, and hasn't existed, for large swaths of US households. That outside of a the upper class and some of the middle class, many households had both parents working either on the family farm, or selling wares, or actually working at a factory. That many of Roosevelt's policies towards worker's rights was geared to the working conditions of women and children. And this was much earlier than the super shiny 50's.

 

Women and children have been working for 100s of years. This idea that they were at home tending home and hearth is a Rockwell fantasy.

 

I like you.

[carhill]

Yes, lets reflect on women and the role they had in marriage and society in the 1950s...

 

I think the article was regarding the 50's in the US so I'll comment from that perspective and personal observation of the era

 

Professional roles were closed off to women. Many companies had policies stating women should get paid less than men In many cases women weren't even given the CHOICE to work outside the home

 

Prior to getting married, the farm girl from a family of 11 kids who moved to the city to work after building airplanes during the war apparently earned more money as a commissioned salesperson and part-time model than the man she married, at least when they met. Only reason I know is they kept financial records back for decades. Education level - high school.

 

• Property rights restricted. Many places women couldn't make contracts or wills. Could not sell property and in many cases didn't have the right to manage their own earnings when they did work

When man and woman met, man was renting an apartment and woman owned a house and was caring for her elderly mother. Viewed the property records.

 

 

• Rape in marriage didn't exist. A woman was expected to have sex with her husband whether she wanted to or not. No autonomy over her sexuality or reproductive rights. Most forms of birth control were illegal so she was obligated to have children if she was married

No positive and verifiable information on this one but I never got the sense any unwanted sex was going on. Considering woman's skill in slaughtering animals and using a shovel, I doubt man would have lasted a week taking sex which wasn't offered freely, but could be wrong.

 

Wow. That sounds fabulous - sign me up :-S

 

It wasn't nirvana but not bad.

 

 

Death of the family? Ruination of civilisation? Please.

 

And yeah, us pesky wimminz just love to make stuff up to run a feminist agenda... holy crap I can't believe people actually swallow this tripe.

 

I leave that part to the political folks. No comment on that stuff. I was raised by a feminist. Seemed pretty healthy to me. Married for life and respected and loved the man she married. As my exW used to derisively opine, Beaver Cleaver. YMMV!

[Els]

What do you think the expectations of men in the 1950s in general were?

 

This differs according to location/culture/social circles, obviously, but from what I've heard and read of:

1) No sex before marriage. You could not even go away unchaperoned with a 'good' woman if you were not married, regardless of whether you had sex or not.

2) You had to ask her father for her hand for marriage, which was often judged based on your job, income, and family status

3) You were usually expected to singlehandedly provide for the entire family

 

Do you think these are also 'essential' for household bliss in general? If any man desires a 1950s woman, he could likely find one if he wanted to be a 1950s man.

[Sassy Girl]

I think the article was regarding the 50's in the US so I'll comment from that perspective and personal observation of the era

 

 

 

Prior to getting married, the farm girl from a family of 11 kids who moved to the city to work after building airplanes during the war apparently earned more money as a commissioned salesperson and part-time model than the man she married, at least when they met. Only reason I know is they kept financial records back for decades. Education level - high school.

 

• 
  

When man and woman met, man was renting an apartment and woman owned a house and was caring for her elderly mother. Viewed the property records.

 

 

• 
  

No positive and verifiable information on this one but I never got the sense any unwanted sex was going on. Considering woman's skill in slaughtering animals and using a shovel, I doubt man would have lasted a week taking sex which wasn't offered freely, but could be wrong.

 

 

It wasn't nirvana but not bad.

 

 

 

 

I leave that part to the political folks. No comment on that stuff. I was raised by a feminist. Seemed pretty healthy to me. Married for life and respected and loved the man she married. As my exW used to derisively opine, Beaver Cleaver. YMMV!

as to the bolded: yep you are. Totally and completely wrong. Do a basic search of judge rulings where they state women have no right to say no in marriage. I'm surprised by your ignorance in this actually.

[calvincline47]

A few basics for you:

 

 

 

Full Definition of FEMINISM

 

1

: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

 

2

: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

 

 

* Note EQUALITY. Same.

 

 

priv·i·lege

 

(prĭv′ə-lĭj, prĭv′lĭj)n.1. a. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right.

b. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.

 

 

*Note: to the DETRIMENT OF OTHERS. Feminism is based on equality of the genders. Protecting your privilege comes at the expense of all other... And you say feminism is ruining the world?? Come again???

 

And finally The United Nations has evidence that gender equality creates positive health outcomes, economic outcomes and social outcomes.

 

 

So... I'd love to know how you can actually claim that gender equality is ruining the world. Your world maybe. But you're just going to have to suck it up.

 

Feminism does not promote equal rights. It promotes rights for women, to the detriment of men. It actively attempts to oppress men.

 

And, yes, my family was privileged. Now, I am no longer privileged because I was born into a world where women receive privilege. You, as a woman, have received privilege your entire life. So you do not understand what it is like to not have privileges, which I understand because I'm a man and do not have any in the modern world.

[Sassy Girl]

Feminism does not promote equal rights. It promotes rights for women, to the detriment of men. It actively attempts to oppress men.

 

And, yes, my family was privileged. Now, I am no longer privileged because I was born into a world where women receive privilege. You, as a woman, have received privilege your entire life. So you do not understand what it is like to not have privileges, which I understand because I'm a man and do not have any in the modern world.

 

Hahahah serious?

 

Dude, read a book and get a clue.

[elaine567]

So for you, this is all about power and prestige.

Who wants to marry a power freak?

 

Not power and prestige, just equality.

[calvincline47]

Hahahah serious?

 

Dude, read a book and get a clue.

 

You need to observe the world around you. What I say is really happening. But you are brainwashed by the BS.

[truncated]

I am sorry, where do I quote science? And yes it is anecdotal, why wouldn't it? I stated my experience because I don't try and blend/assume others into it.

 

I do have kids, I have stepkids, and I am pregnant.

 

And do I think I am more of expert than someone that has never been married, never been in a long term relationship and seems to always meet with dissatisfaction because it gets emotional? Yes, I do.

 

Feminist regime? What on earth!?!

 

Calvin, I do not know you, your story, and wasn't speaking to you. Gloria and I share a lot of the same posts, very familiar with her story and her complaints, so on that I was speaking. And what I stated was there is more than one road to Rome. I did not say one way worked and one way doesn't.

 

Please really read before trying to argue.

 

Congratulations on the new baby

[truncated]

Yes, lets reflect on women and the role they had in marriage and society in the 1950s...

 

 

• Professional roles were closed off to women. Many companies had policies stating women should get paid less than men In many cases women weren't even given the CHOICE to work outside the home
  
• Property rights restricted. Many places women couldn't make contracts or wills. Could not sell property and in many cases didn't have the right to manage their own earnings when they did work
  
• Rape in marriage didn't exist. A woman was expected to have sex with her husband whether she wanted to or not. No autonomy over her sexuality or reproductive rights. Most forms of birth control were illegal so she was obligated to have children if she was married
  

Wow. That sounds fabulous - sign me up :-S

 

 

Death of the family? Ruination of civilisation? Please.

 

And yeah, us pesky wimminz just love to make stuff up to run a feminist agenda... holy crap I can't believe people actually swallow this tripe.

 

Back then, a woman could lose her job if she got pregnant, and in many roles, there was a tacit expectation that once she got married, she would retire. Any woman who didn't marry was looked at as an "old maid", and treated with a bit of suspicion as to why she didn't.

 

 

In some cases, women had to work for the betterment of the family. My mom worked to put my dad through school ( in the early 60's) and once he was working full time and had his M. Eng, she worked nights a few nights a week. they both agreed that it was a good idea, as that way, if anything ever happened to him, she would be qualified to work at something to support the family. She continues working even after he got his Phd. Ed. and was offered etnure at a university.It made sense financially, and she enjoyed it.

They were able to save enough to help their children pay for their higher education, which gave them a better start in life.

For her part, her dad had told both her and my aunt that they needed to get an education in something that would allow them to have decent employment so they could take care of themselves, and that way, marriage would be a choice for them, not a necessity. My mom chose nursing and my aunt chose teaching.

 

 

In the present day, workplace dynamics are changing, and more people can work from home. I'm lucky that I can, as if I couldn't, it would mean one less income. Raising kids is expensive ( and no, I don't mean because of "things"...we have one simple vehicle, a modest home, a couple of savings and investment account, and spend most of our "extras" ( after the bills are paid) on the basics our kids need and saving towards their higher education.

 

I take care of the finances, simply because my husband is away so much that it just makes sense.

 

That is the dynamic that works for us, and has for over 18 years.He's no pushover either. He's military, and could kick your @ss up and down the street ten ways form sunday if he wanted to, but he's also man enough to not need to be caught up in the "the man has to be 100% in charge" dynamic to feel masculine.

 

In my experience, "real men" are secure in themselves.

[elaine567]

You need to observe the world around you. What I say is really happening. But you are brainwashed by the BS.

 

Men have had it pretty much all their own way apart from a few blips here and there, since time began.

Women were chattels, when a woman married she disappeared as far as the law was concerned.

Her wealth and possessions became her husband's.

She became a second class citizen.

In the western world that is no longer the case, women do have legal rights, but there is still a lingering attitude that the man is the leader, the superior, the decision maker.

 

Men have to accept that women just want equality, not power, just equality.

Feminism IS about equality, but in order to gain equality, some male privilege needs to be ceded.

Half the board members of a company, cannot be female unless some of the all male board step down to allow the women to sit on the board.

Yes, 10 all male board members can be replaced by 10 men AND 10 women, but life tends not to work in that way.

 

A husband and wife sit down to supper and he normally gets a 8oz steak and 3 potatoes and she gets a 4oz steak and one potato. However, in order for there to be true equality of rations then he has to give her 2ozs of steak and a potato, so that both can sit down to 6ozs of steak and 2 potatoes each.

She has not gained power, she has just gained equality.

[Sassy Girl]

You need to observe the world around you. What I say is really happening. But you are brainwashed by the BS.

 

I DO observe the world around me... And I'm a productive member of it. The world doesn't owe me squat just because of my gender.

 

That being said, please provide some real examples. Time to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Oh, and here's a good place to start some reading: How to spot a misogynist....

 

http://m.smh.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/how-to-spot-a-misogynist-20120430-1xueh.html

Edited May 25, 2015 by Sassy Girl

[elaine567]

I DO observe the world around me... And I'm a productive member of it. The world doesn't owe me squat just because of my gender.

 

That being said, please provide some real examples. Time to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Oh, and here's a good place to start some reading: How to spot a misogynist....

 

How to spot a misogynist

That link didn't really work for me, but this is another of the same article. How to spot a misogynist

[alphamale]

but there is still a lingering attitude that the man is the leader, the superior, the decision maker.

that is partly because most women like it that way

[Got it]

I've been in relationships before. Never been married, but that was my choice. I don't now nor have I ever had difficulty attracting women.

 

As far as feminist regime, yes, there is one that currently invents and has always invented injustices against women, which have never actually occurred.

 

 

 

My family is upper middle class and experienced the lifestyle and that you say never occurred. This was in the 1950s-60s time period before feminism hit and ruined the world.

 

 

 

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I was speaking in terms of wealth.

 

What do I care if a country has a better standard of living if it does not benefit me directly. My personal standard of living would have been higher in previous generations, which is all I really care about, to be honest.

 

It does not benefit you either. You are a male. You are brainwashed to think that things are better for you than they actually are.

 

Calvin are you trying to purposely be obtuse or are you just not reading what people are writing? I didn't say it never happened. In fact I said that there was a small minority where it did - upper middle class. But upper middle class was not the majority. So while you got to live the Rockwell fantasy this was not the reality for the MAJORITY of the US. So then saying that feminism greatly destroyed it would, AGAIN, have had nothing to do with the majority since they weren't living it anyway. Sigh.

 

If you did not have women disenfranchised for 100s of years divorce would have been higher at that time. Why? Because you are empowering women to make choices that are allowing them independence. So the combination of birth control, which has been found to be the BIGGEST contributor, not the feminist movement, and the normalizing of divorce, which again was seen as a far greater social stigma against women, you have women becoming independent.

 

So please forgive women for not seeing this amazing hey day as you do. Where we are cattle for reproduction, at the whim of the males in our family and completely controlled by social stigmas on our sexuality.

 

Boy as amazing that sounds through me some bobby socks and a poodle skirt!!!

 

And my standard of living is far better nowadays, since I can myself earn over a quarter of a million annually, than any previous generation where this opportunity would have been a fantasy. Give me modern times any day! I can vote, I can own real estate, I do not have to put up with it if my husband abuses me, I can hold a position of power, and livestock. I am sitting pretty.

[Got it]

Congratulations on the new baby

 

Gracias! Ending my first trimester and gratefully putting it behind me. I have enjoyed every moment but will be happy to see morning sickness/all day sickness in the rear view mirror.

[Shining One]

Men have had it pretty much all their own way apart from a few blips here and there, since time began.

Women were chattels, when a woman married she disappeared as far as the law was concerned.

Her wealth and possessions became her husband's.

She became a second class citizen.

In the western world that is no longer the case, women do have legal rights, but there is still a lingering attitude that the man is the leader, the superior, the decision maker.

 

Men have to accept that women just want equality, not power, just equality.

Feminism IS about equality, but in order to gain equality, some male privilege needs to be ceded.

Half the board members of a company, cannot be female unless some of the all male board step down to allow the women to sit on the board.

Yes, 10 all male board members can be replaced by 10 men AND 10 women, but life tends not to work in that way.

 

A husband and wife sit down to supper and he normally gets a 8oz steak and 3 potatoes and she gets a 4oz steak and one potato. However, in order for there to be true equality of rations then he has to give her 2ozs of steak and a potato, so that both can sit down to 6ozs of steak and 2 potatoes each.

 

She has not gained power, she has just gained equality.

These are good analogies. I'd just like to add that true equality requires women to give up some of their privilege as well.

• 50% of those who die in military service should be women
  
• 50% of dating expenses should be paid by women
  
• Men and Women need more equitable results in divorce (on average)
  
• Men and Women need equal penalties for the same crime
  
• Equal money should be spent on breast and prostate cancer
  

I can go on and on, but I think you'll agree that selective equality is not true equality.

[alphamale]

These are good analogies. I'd just like to add that true equality requires women to give up some of their privilege as well.

• 50% of those who die in military service should be women
  
• 50% of dating expenses should be paid by women
  
• Men and Women need more equitable results in divorce (on average)
  
• Men and Women need equal penalties for the same crime
  
• Equal money should be spent on breast and prostate cancer
  

I can go on and on, but I think you'll agree that selective equality is not true equality.

you forgot that men should get custody of their children 50% of the time

[elaine567]

you forgot that men should get custody of their children 50% of the time

 

I very much doubt that would be very popular amongst men.

[Woggle]

I fully support equality in all aspects of life. If a couple decides to have traditional roles that is their business but we should all be equal citizens under the law. If somebody calls themselves a feminist and believes in this and not hatred of my gender they have my support.

 

That being said the way I have heard some feminists talk over the years I think some of them could kill a man and not feel an ounce of guilt over it. No person with an ounce of self respect supports something that directs that kind of hatred towards them.

 

Also there is a difference between an equal relationship and an antagonistic relationship and many need to learn the difference. Just because a woman treats a man well and doesn't treat him like the enemy does not make her a stepford wife.

[elaine567]

• 50% of those who die in military service should be women

That may be a bit difficult to orchestrate.

[Shining One]

you forgot that men should get custody of their children 50% of the time

I didn't want to make the list too long, but you're right, this is an important one.

I very much doubt that would be very popular amongst men.

It's about giving men the option. Default split should be 50/50. If the man or woman wants less and the other partner wants more, then it's fair to adjust accordingly. It should not simply default to a higher percentage for women.

That may be a bit difficult to orchestrate.

I could have worded this better. Perhaps 50% of dangerous positions should be occupied by women. Obviously we can't decide who specifically dies and who doesn't.

[carhill]

as to the bolded: yep you are. Totally and completely wrong. Do a basic search of judge rulings where they state women have no right to say no in marriage. I'm surprised by your ignorance in this actually.

 

Were you in the bedroom? I think not. Why waste time on another female who can't discuss a topic with a modicum of civility and respect? Your ignorance of the phrase 'personal experience' is astounding, but I'm not surprised in the least, since it's your MO. Next.